A Few Turntable Measurements using the RPM Android App

@kevemaher  : I never posted that that Technics was a high-end TT so don't put " words " in my mouth.

 

The next links are only for our friends in this thread could in what scenario I recomended that Technics that is traveling to your place:

 

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/zyx-house-sound/post?postid=2566659#2566659

 

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/zyx-house-sound/post?postid=2567061#2567061

 

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/zyx-house-sound/post?postid=2567138#2567138

 

Btw, you are welcome.

 

R.

Dear @kevemaher  : " I was shocked by the poorer performance of the WOW. Acoustic Signature does not publish specs for speed stability, wow, flutter and rumble. "

"" It is very obvious now why Acoustic Signature does not publish these specifications. It could be very difficult to explain why a 70s "entry level" table beats their Double X for wow, flutter and rumble. ""

 

" " I was fooled. I bought it. One of my biggest audio gear mistakes. Won't happen again."

 

You posted about specs and what you measured and even that all " against " results to your AS TT you posted something that speaks fine for the listening quality playback of that TT:

 

""""" I also have a modern table, an Acoustic Signature WOW XXL. The table works fine, although there is no means to adjust the rotation speed.  """"""

 

and when you posted was only ignorance from your self due that that TT you can fine tune the rotation speed.  So seems that that TT is fine TT as you posted. The other issue with was that you don't like its tonearm and you changed but even you don't use your Denon because you don't like the look of the Denon unit  !  !

 

 

""I am also boggled to read that the reviewer summarized that the Double X performance as "high end". ""

 

Well for the reviewer that unit is " high end " but the issue could be something that only you can answer: what is high end for you?   your main reference on your system TTs units and what hipotethically I can think is that maybe your true entry level MS DD-40 is that high end for you:  is it?  and if it is nothing wrong with that. Your answer appreciated.

 

 

""""" I have difficulty accepting commonly asserted "facts" unless there is data that has been peer reviewed. """""

 

Well in this and almost other internet audio forums for sure you will have very hard " times " .

 

My take in audio is that must be an equilibrium between objectivity and subjectivity, both extremes are not something good but the other way around.

 

R.

@kevemaher  : Obviously that mijos and I knew Atmos is entertainment and the posts were only mijos and I entertaiment/humor and that's all.

 

"" We are at the mercy of recording and mastering techs.  "2

I have to add : " and each one whole playback process.

I own not 3 but all those PHASE FOUR recordings and some ar just ok but nothing more.

 

R.

 

 

@kevemaher  : " Is there any scientific data that indicates how a person with "normal" listening abilities perceives audio distortions? "

 

It's weird that less that two hour after your questions you found out the " answers ". Nothing wrong with that.

Now, that's not what I was talking about or what E.Long in the review posted: due to the vacuum clamping all the members on the listening panel heard the difference in the quality/kind of reproduced sound. Not even Long posted nothing about THD or IMD changes with and with out vacuum but more about good damping or as mijo said underdamped .

Anyway, in any listen sound pick up by human been ears we have to take in count that ears is only one tool in the human been to identify sound because you, me and ever one listen through our whole body: ears, bones muscles, nervous skin terminations, hair and the like. Not easy to to it overall.

 

R.

@mijostyn  : I can't see any one from México but in reality people like you in USA and Europe: 

 

Music Like Never Before - Dolby Atmos Music - Dolby

Dolby Live at Park MGM - Dolby

Dolby Atmos - Official Site - Dolby

 

So you are wrong " again ".

 

Good that you have what you want.  That's all about. Enough for me im this subject.

 

R.

@mijostyn  : Btw, I attend for several years at least one day each week to listen live MUSIC.

  """ Are you saying that you can only achieve a satisfactory level of performance at a live performance and that this is not achievable with a residential system?  """

 

Obviously is not achievable in any room/system. Period.

 

Like you I like too the home system " illusion " ( fake ) that is central part of the home stereo reproduction but I'm not so anal about like you.

I wonder why you have not Dolby Atmos?

 

R.

Dear @kevemaher  : Obviously that you are not bashing anyone but instead of all those questions where you already have the answers then why not really enhance or apport something where all of us could be beneficiated for example: that you take your knowledge levels and make a mathematic model with measurements with the explanations of : what to measure, where to measure, how to measure and what all those makes sense to you and to any one of us.

Scientifics along neurologists already made some research with measures how the brain and which brain parts react to some sounds and not specific on sounds of the ones in our audio hobby. In the mid-time you can google for those studies that even in Agon ( somewhere )  were posted and again with no relationship with the audio hobby.

 

You can start with your self at the end you are an audio hobbyst.

R.

 

R.

 

R.

@mijostyn  : I don't know where you want to arrive. The power is just intrinsical in a live MUSIC event ( no one is preaching there and certainly not the Orchestra Director. ) and I thiink that any one but you already understood what I posted and the links I posted.

For your " 20 + " latest posts in the thread you are living inside that imagin that according with what you already posted in the threads is a main characteristic for any room/system

I don't know know if you attend to live events to enjoy the imagin. Not me. Anyway please tell me what can you appreciate in a single horn player at live SPL if you are seated nearfield say 2m.?. Maybe you know something that I just missed or we are talking of different " things ".

 

R.

@mijostyn  : This was what I posted a few months ago in other thread and was not the first time on that issue:

 

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/top-two-most-important-sound-qualities/post?postid=2560319#2560319

 

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/top-two-most-important-sound-qualities/post?postid=2560702#2560702

 

and this related in other " diferent " thread:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/how-can-you-evaluate-a-system-with-highly-processed-music/post?postid=2561802#2561802

 

Today on those issues is my overall " take ".

 

R.

Dear @terry9 : MUSIC and MUSIC in a home and its reproduction quality levels belongs to Transient Response. That first MUSIC note and notes attack is what ,for me and my MUSIC life, I think is what defines the step by step MUSIC score we are listen. That transient response obviously develops harmonics.

In a room/system where nothing is perfect: where are developed everykind , not only distortions/colorations, of poor transient response according with each system link where something is poor too in some frequency ranges.

Your first hand experiences as me and the listening panel in that TT review along the reviewer tell us ( you and me ) exactly the importance of those transient response and what we " losted " through that dull reproduction were only bad distortions right at the " edge " and that now just dissapeared.

My last " dull " experience in my system was in the early last year when I decided to change the attenuators/volume in my phonolinepreamp. Years ago I bought those new attenuators that came with the same Swiss mechanism that the ones I used to, difference with the " new " ones is Only that the old ones where builded with true hole resistors and the " new " with SMD resistors.

I made the change and was truly dramatic and the first impresion was sad for say the least, yes Dull sound but after a few hours I took again that what I losted were those distortions that normally gives that " over bright " sound. Now those transients are marvelous and obviously puts me nearer to the recording because the brightness is more natural near the live MUSIC brightness.

Yes, we are accustom to that wrong brightness. My audio system is full on SS electronics with ( for me ) high resolution .

Over brightness lives in many of the audio system links of that system chain. Through the years our ears goes down in its sensitivity and that over brightness is " welcomed " and normally is not our fault till we have that " dull " experiences and then we learn about and take action in that audio room/system. In the other side for several audiophiles that true overbrightness they take as: clarity, transparency and the like when in true are only added distortions what gives that kind of " clarity " and that can happens at both frequency extremes not only in HF.

 

R.

 

Dear @mijostyn  : " The comments about the turntable sounding "dull" only for everyone to decide that the reference system was too bright is a characteristic that is legion in high fidelity systems. There is a tendency for us to prefer brighter reproduction, brighter is better.

  "I don't think that " brigther is better, as a fact the live MUSIC has that " brihtness " characteristic in a Natural way. So there is brighter and " brighter and not always the same word means the same.

That " dull " characteristic you mentioned and the reviewer too came from the listening panel and for those old times the reaction of the member of that panel is just normal because when you listen for the first time a LP with vacuum hold-down  audiophiles think that that vacuum mechanism suck the sound and from there the " dull " kind of sound but E.Long posted that after some time listening ( he not the panel members. ) to the Sota he was convinced that the sound is not really dull but more " realistic " and I remember that when I bougth the  AT666 vacuum stabilizer as an after market item my first impression was exactly that: " dull " and was disappointed with and time latter on I took in count that the sound was nearer to the reality with the room/system I owned in those " times " and that today in many ways is "  different.  ".

 

The sibilance issue is a sound characteristic more on female voice and we even listened in some live events and not necessary associated with poor imaging.

In the other side we unknow all the recording process of each LP where the sibilance could be developed but on the playback process some phono cartridges tend to sibilance more than others. As with low bass many times room treatment can't make it disappears. To many challenges to defeat in a home systems where exist no perfcetion but the other way around.

 

R.

Dear @kevemaher  : Do you want to know what other audiophiles think on turntable different Drive Designs?

Well in at least 2 of the 5+ analog threads this gentleman: @mikelavigne  participated and he owns those 3 today top TT's you ask about. This gentleman builded his home system through many years and I know that first than all he is a MUSIC lover.

Before the TT's he owns today he owned at least other 2 top TT's in those learning years: the Goldmund Reference and latter on the Rockport Sirius 3. I followed his audio history for to many years and here his today system:

 

Mike Lavigne's System | Virtual Listening Room (audiogon.com)

 

R.

Dear @mijostyn  : This is the one for you and  for the OP because this is not DD but BD design:

 

Audio-1986-06.pdf (worldradiohistory.com)  page 98.

 

R.

@kevemaher  : In this forum there are 5-6 threads dedicated to your same question and the issue is not exactly the drive TT design because the kind of drive is only one TT characteristic and yes very important but there are other very important characteristics too like: platter build material or blend materials well damped, well dampend isolated arm board, excellent damped suspension, silent bearing, tec, etc,.

At the end no matters the drive design the TT must be inert with out any kind of " sound " by it self . It has to be speed accurated and with good speed stability. 

I that scnario any of those 3 drive designs can make the job. Design , materials and quality level excecution is more or less the name of the game.

 

Please do a fast search in Agon forum to find out those TT threads.

 

R.

Dear @kevemaher @terry9  and friends  : This is a learning TT reviews for measurements that came from 1985:

 

Audio-1985-02.pdf (worldradiohistory.com)    page 58.

 

and this another one:

 

Audio-1985-04.pdf (worldradiohistory.com)  page 62.

 

R.

 

Dear @kevemaher  :  As you said almost no manufacturer disclose the the whole measurements process they used including the different standards they used.

Here some examples:

 

http://www.thevintageknob.org/technics-SP-10MK3.html

 

http://www.thevintageknob.org/denon-DP-100M.html

On specs this Denon TT is the only that shows Measured spec on speed fluctuations: 0.06%

http://www.thevintageknob.org/micro_seiki-DD-100.html

 

http://www.thevintageknob.org/yamaha-GT-2000.html

 

http://www.thevintageknob.org/sony-TTS-8000.html

 

http://www.thevintageknob.org/sony-TTS-8000.html

 

http://www.thevintageknob.org/garrard-401.html

 

Your AS 60db is prety " decent " for a BD design and is really close to the DD MS unit. Btw, @mijostyn  my vintage AS TTs never showed that rumble you mentioned is reflected in the subs not only that I do not noted by " eyes " but neither with my fingers against the Denon DP 80 and the Technics SP 10MK2.

I think that the OP really puts the " finger " where it hurts when posted:

 

"" How low do wow, flutter, and rumble have to be before they become inaudible in a "typical" listening situation? ""

 

That is in true the real issue for us MUSIC lovers and audiophiles and for what I know I think that no one measured till today with the same standards/process.

 

I remember that in cartridges the separation spec that normally is measured over the frequency range but manufacturers only gives the measure at 1khz and main reason ( I think all we know it. ) is that at both/near frequency ranges the " figure is way lower over the " figure " showed by the manufacturer that today I think no one gives as in the past when the cartridges came with athe measured diagram of frequency response and separation from 20hz to 20khz and with the test record used, at what temperature, VTF and the like and speed velocity of the diagram.

In those " gold " times audiophiles were way better infortmed to decide what to buy and in those times and talking of cartridge separation specs with severaltests and measures was accepted that the minum separation spec must be 20db with no " difference " if that figure goes to 30db because separation is not linear/flat.

Lyra Atlas Lambda SL shows 35db on that spec but Allaerts Formula 1 is 70db at 100hz and 20khz and " only " 60db at 1khz but neither manufacturer disclose the measurement process about.

 

R.

 

 

Dear @kevemaher  : As you I bougth my units at blind on specs and were ( two units ) coming from an audiophile that I respect, so second hand at very good price: 2 top of the line ( in those times. ) TTs with 3 outboard motors and one motyor controler that I had to modify to choose between one TT or the other and till today I have not a single issue with those AS and the " belts " I use are simple silk thread amnd yes I have to push-start. In reality a critical issue with my model TTs was that came with no kind of damping footers so what I did it is to put 3 AT-616 pneumatic Audio Technica footers and a top these footers goes a centered an inverted aluminum tip-toes that for me makes very good job.

 

Here you can read some real time measurements in one of AS today model:

 

https://www.acoustic-signature.com/files/downloads/tests/2021-08-stereoplay-double-x-neo-ta-500-neo-mcx1-en.pdf

 

R.

Dear @kevemaher  : Good that you shared those measurements that speaks by it self what I knew of the Denon quality.

 

I still own two Acoustic Signature old top of the line TT's alog Denon, Technics, Luxman and the like. Inside the external PS in my TT's I can fine tunning its speed and you can do it with your table too:

 

"" The Wow XL is driven by an ultra-precise synchronous motor that employs a 20MHz microprocessor that provides “perfect” speed stability and fine-tuning. Two small recessed buttons on the back of the ’table allow ±0.1% speed adjustments, so you can dial-in the speed during initial setup. I checked the speed after I set up everything, and it was spot on. I checked it three weeks later, and things were still spinning correctly. It’s safe to assume that once you initially set the speed, you can leave it be without worrying—it’s always good to check speed if you move the ’table, though. The motor is extremely quiet, too. Fitting the belt was easy, and once the motor was turned on any twists were straightened out after a few revolutions. Two stainless-steel buttons are located to the left of the platter, an on/off button and a 33/45 button to easily switch speeds. Turn the turntable on, and a red LED blinks above the speed button until the precise speed is reached.  ""

 

 

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.