A difficult LP reproduction question

True Elizabeth. I found an article at Mechanical Music Digest™ Archives and hope there is some truth in it.

Don't forget that for playing 78 RPM records you will need a spherical stylus, not the elliptical type normally used for 33-1/3 LP's. The old 78 RPM groove was cut wide and the modern elliptical will not make contact with both the outer groove walls. Stanton, ADC, Shure and some others still have spherical styli for use in their cartridges.

The Shure styluses for 78s are also elliptical, but bigger than the styluses for 33/45. The elliptical shape gives a better fit in the groove. If you have an equalizer in your system, you can get some pretty fair reproduction from the old 78's. The RIAA equalization curve did not come into play until the first LP's.

However, the only result of using RIAA is a bit of bass boost. Provided there is no bass feedback, I find most 78s sound fine played with the LP equalization.

I think reproduction will be adequate for the small quantity of 78's I'm likely to purchase. This entire project is intended to be an experiment to see what I can get in terms of sound.

Have any of you heard the Bottlehead Seduction? There are claims it is approaching state of the art and the kit is less than $300.00.

After completion you can add Stevens and Billington step ups and it will handle ultra low output moving coils cartridges such as Koetsu.

This increases my desire to experiment with rim drive turntables, moving magnet cartridges and older tonearms. I received my (NEW) factory packed Decca tonearm today from Holland and have yet to open the box.

Part of this desire is due to Jean Nantais thread here at Audiogon.

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1075644493&read&h24&zzlJohnnantais&rest

That thread combined with my early days in high end audio where I sold this type of gear makes me want to revisit rim drive turntables and see how much performance is there. It's not all about 78 RPM, although these old rim drives have that ability along with variable speed adjustment.

My son begins college this year and if the commute becomes tiring he will move on campus, in which case this would become his music system. I want him to be part of this rebuild which is partially the reason for my interest in the phono stage kit.

There seems to be a number of people with this idea. Thorens rim drive table such as the TD 124 that went largely unnoticed a few years ago are fetching near $2000.00 on EBAY with twelve inch SME arms.

Lencos on EBAY have gone from about $35,00 to near $200.00 since Jean's thread began here at Audiogon.

Johnnatais has answered the variable speed questions about the Lenco.

As for why this is necessary, here is a section from a page on 78 RPM disc playback.

      By no means all 78s were actually recorded at 78 RPM. Even in the late 1920s English Columbia was still using 80 RPM, and prior to about 1921 speeds were widely variable. Some of the audio tracks included in the Music hall section of this site were transferred at speeds as low as 74 RPM, and I have come across records where the speed was as low as 68 or as high as 84 RPM.

As to a turntable capable of coping with these speeds, that is yet another problem. Few turntables have more than a tiny variation (usually 2 or 3 per cent, which is nowhere near enough); but electronically controlled turntables may be modifiable. You need a speed range of 72 to 82 to cover most records. I'm using a Goldring-Lenco turntable which has a mechanical system for continuously varying the speed from about 32 to about 84 RPM, but it's not available any more - indeed I have had mine since 1963

Exactly why I think it's a valid choice for 78 RPM playback and still deliver good performance on modern LP.

Bmckenney, that would be perfect. I hope you make that listening session and post results.

Johnnantais. I was considering the Seduction kit new and the EAR used. I was thinking the EAR used for $500.00.

The Seduction kit is $225.00 plus the recent upgrade board which raises the total gain to 40 DB is an additional $125.00. That puts the price of the two close enough to go with the EAR if it were clearly superior.

Gregm, thanks for the links. Wish I could justify that high end 78 EQ phono. Likely I will live with RIAA for the 78's I purchase.

Eldartford, you appear to not like old (inexpensive) technology yet you actively work to disprove the quality of modern (inexpensive) technology as well.

Cryo AC outlets being a perfect example, you have a rather long running thread:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?htech&1079992196&read&h12&zzlSubaruguru&rest

What part of high end audio do you approve of? Perhaps only the most expensive, or absolutely free?

Still not hearing from Audiogon members as to which phono stage is best in this price range. Has no one compared EAR 834 to Sound Lab Mini or Seduction kit?

Other suggestions? Tom Lyon says I should consider Goldring 1042 Moving magnet for the Decca-Lenco rig when I get it assembled.

Eldartford. I don't need anything nor would I ask it of you. Just responding to your negative post.

As for idler wheel turntables, some make very nice music indeed. They are also among the very few tables ever built that can accomplish the (true) speed variations necessary for all 78 RPM pressings.

78 RPM records vary from mid 60 RPM to nearly 88 RPM. Traditional turntables are unable to play these back properly as they are locked at around 78 RPM (plus or minus 3 percent). Aside from that distinct advantage, I would also acquire a player that revisits my youth without much investment.

As for newer technology, the outlets your testing are not to my liking. I tested half a dozen on my system and made a decision based on quality of sound. The ones your testing did not make the cut, but I have stayed out of that discussion as it was your test and your results.

There are many opinions as to what sounds good and what does not. No doubt a great deal of this may be attributed to personal taste and (much) more than people would think, the equipment and the room.

The fact that your results do not match mine means just that. You are correct in your assessment with your equipment and in your environment. My equipment is very different, my room is totally different and my results are absolutely different.

I treasure any product that makes music "right," For me that means tubes and analog. I intensely dislike your digital amps yet agree with your assessment of Dynaco. So in spite of our differences, we can find some things to agree on.

As for turntables, it is damn hard to find a really great piece of reliable gear for $35.00 to $100.00. My goal is not to replace my state of the art Walker or my Io phono, but to see if some fun exists in revisiting the old Thorens and Lencos. Possibly even finding an original Jerry Lee Lewis or other rock and roll great on 78 and see how it sounds.

Along the way in this journey should I put something together that makes my son happy and that he can pack off to school, then mission accomplished two fold.

As for wall outlets, it's no secret that I have my own. They have sold here at Audiogon for a good while and I have only positive responses from buyers.

Considering a high quality Hubbell costs about $25.00 with tax, my $36.00 asking price is very fair. If the cryo treatment only improves one's system a tiny bit, it's $10.00 well spent. Many at this site have spent 200 times that amount on a single power cord.

I look for ways to add joy to my listening experience. An opportunity to improve my system in ways that puts me closer to the music. I have isolation devices in my system that cost $13.00 and in my opinion are the best available.

In other words, I consider equipment options at every price level, regardless if new or old technology. Price is important but only if it balances against how the music is delivered.

I opened my new Decca arm today and it is BEAUTIFUL. Unbelievable it sat sealed and unused all these years! I picked it up for $50.00. (Thanks for the tip Jean.)

My Lenco 75 should be here Thursday. I plan on going through it and determine if condition is as advertised. Then I will test Jean's theory with some music.

This is a chance for people to have fun without risk, something high end audio needs. I hope my son doesn't take it away from me before I can check it out.

Cool idea Dekay. If I take over another room my wife will have no place to sleep.

I'm going to have to push it through the current rig. Maybe get a second head shell for the Decca and a true mono cartridge for those old 78's.

Then we would have to get one of those dogs like RCA used in the ads.

I can see him now, sitting in the living room listening to that old horn coming off the Victrola and ignoring my Soundlabs.

Thanks for the link Jphii.

Good news too as this is a true mono cartridge according to Shure web site. All I would need is a second head shell and I can spin every everything from 16 to 78 RPM.

I wish I had access to the 2000 78 RPM discs you mention. I would love to find some old rock and roll or blues or maybe Ella Fitzgerald or other great artists that released tunes on 78 that never made it to long play.

As for Chris doing a motor with 33 and 78. All that is required is a larger pulley.

I just wrote an email to the MingDa people, asking about the MC767-RD Phono Tube Pre-Amplifier.

It looks very nice. Wish I had someone who has compared it to any of the others discussed here. There seems to be a wealth of new inexpensive tube phono's appearing on the market. Someone needs to do a test.

To do this right, someone would need a sample of five or six of these pieces and do a shoot off.

Even then it would be necessary to have more than one cartridge and tonearm so there was no unfair synergy with a certain piece.

Unfortunately this is beyond me, I don't have funds or power to bring that many pieces together. Audiogon member posting results (with nothing to gain) have great value. One of the best things about this site and probably as close as I will get to hands on experience.

I was thinking two head shells and two cartridges. 78's are supposed to be wired mono and Shure makes a true mono cartridge. Not certain how each wires to the head shell or how that effects the run to the phono stage. More research yet to do.