$800 Cartridge Shootout and Upgrade Path

Raul,

Thanks for your kind thoughts and observations. The cartridge is very important, as you have pointed out. I also think that balancing the system, as Twl has suggested, is also important. For me, which I believe it was your suggestion, I will start with the Shelter 501 and put it on an Origin Live tonearm, either the Encounter or the Illustrious.

And thank you for your continued support of the Acoustic Signature turntable. However, I think my heart is set on buying the Teres 245 or 255; I like the look of wood.

Thanks for posting.

Artar1

Jphii,

Because you built your Teres from scratch, it might be useful for some of us if you were to describe the process for us and to comment on the overall quality of the turntable, if you wouldn't mind. I think that would be very instructive and helpful for some of us newbees, like me.

Well, you’re not the only one who has blown his budget all to hell. If you’ve heard of “A Bridge too Far,” right, well my analog saga is becoming “A Turntable too Much!” Let’s see, my budget started out at $3,000 for the turntable, tonearm, and cartridge. Now it’s over five big ones! Help! As of today, I am up to a Teres 255, an Origin Live Illustrious, and a Shelter 501. Why the Illustrious? Hey, I just love that name, don’t you? It looks a little better than the Encounter (I can just see Twl rolling his eyes!), and it has a few more refinements that I like. What concerns me about both the Encounter and the Illustrious is that in some photos it appears that the back end of the arm base is hanging over the edge of the arm board mount, which would be aesthetically unacceptable for me. If this proves to be the case, I will ask Teres to make sure that the arm board mount for my Teres is made larger so there will be no overhang. If they refuse, then it’s back to the Moerch DP-6.

>>I know people who spend shitloads of money on their analog rigs. I'm trying not to. In fact, the best "analog" purchase I made was my Supratek.<<

Right on! That’s one hell-of-a preamp by anyone’s standards! If I had it to do over again, I would buy the Supratek Cortese. But I own a Klyne System 7 line stage that certainly outperforms my Conrad-Johnson PV14L and my Proceed AVP-5. In fact, I have no criticisms of the Klyne so it’s difficult for me to justify taking a $2,000 loss by selling it to buy the Cortese.

Hey, if you like the DL103R, I say go with it. Don’t let anyone talk you out of it. I can certainly support you one that one.

Salectric,

It's great to hear about your platter upgrade! Let us know how it sounds. I think we're all eager to hear.

Artar1

Dan_ed,

It’s always a good idea to be nice to your wife. Luda asked what I wanted for my birthday, which is fast approaching. I said, “How’s about a contribution to my turntable savings account?” She said, Will five or six hundred do?" “Why certainly!” I replied. I am getting closer guys. : > )

My favorite music for vinyl is classical. That type of music was what I bought first in any abundance, and it is what I am buying now despite the fact I don’t have a turntable. It’s a risk buy so to speak, but I feel that I have to get back into the vinyl game in some way. Shoot, by the time I actually get my turntable, I will have about a hundred albums. Now I know that’s a puny record collection to many, but it’s like diamonds to me!

I will have to say that even with rock, vinyl reigns supreme over CDs. Even though I listen to classic music, what got me going toward vinyl was hearing “Gloria” by the late Laura Branigan. The music was so sublime, the beat was so hot, and her voice was so real and in the room with me I literally jumped out of my chair and commenced to flail myself about has if I had become possessed by the Almighty. Wow! Rock was meant to be heard from a vinyl record on a great analog front end. The music I experienced that moment was better than any live concert of amplified music I have ever heard!

Twl,

You know, I do enjoy the process, but I also see the journey as part of the hobby of analog reproduction. Spinning vinyl is not only rewarding in its own right, but it carries with it greater involvement on the part of the audiophile, from the choice of turntable, tonearm, and cartridge to the selection of music. There’s simply more to do as you know, which brings me, certainly, closer to the music. And then to share these experiences with others makes it all the more rewarding.

>>We are just trying to provide some insight that will help you to make your decisions about some of the details.<<

That’s for sure; there’s a lot of detail. Putting together a very good analog front end entails an attention to detail; otherwise it would be very easy to make a very big mistake, like putting the wrong tonearm on the turntable.

DC motors have been used in turntables for sometime, especially direct-drive ones, which are not very popular at all for good reason – lousy sonics unless the table costs nearly a million dollars. The direct drive model I once owned used a quartz controller to maintain consistent speed, or so said the marketing literature, and a built-in strobe to help with speed adjustment. All of this technology could not compensate for a lack of bass, dynamics, and presence of a black background. Instead my last turntable was more adroit at highlighting surface noise over inner detail and micro dynamics.

My concern about AC motors is the amount of shielding they have in order to reduce hum in cartridges, like the Grado Reference line, that have no shielding and are susceptible to turntable hum. I’m glad the Teres doesn’t use an AC motor. If I should ever decide to use a Grado cartridge, hum shouldn’t be an issue, or at least that’s what I have been told.

In addition to stylus drag, I also imagine that bearing friction and air friction affect speed consistency, but to a lesser degree. If the platter were spinning in a weightless vacuum, it should continue to rotate without any fluctuations in speed for ever. But you are right: the stylus will have the greatest impact.

It’s interesting to note that stylus drag is accumulative; that is, as a record is played over a 20-to-30 minute duration, the speed will diminish over that time. Why is that? It’s also equally interesting how an AC motor can achieve a “speed lock” without some form of a feedback sensing system that supplies the needed electrical pulses should there be any current drop in the AC line.

>>The bottom line is that the heavier the platter is, with more rotational momentum, the less likely that stylus drag will significantly affect the speed. With the heavier platters, even a TT which uses speed controls will not have to engage in compensating pulses to the motor very often, if the platter stays at correct speed in the first place.<<

This is a good argument for the lead-shot platter, and as a $350 upgrade, it seems to be a no brainer.

>>However, I do know that if something severe happened to the platter speed, that the controller would account for the change immediately.<<

Is the adjustment instantaneous or is there a lag time? If a lag exists, is it audible?

As for the acrylic platter, would it be possible to use a felt or Neoprene pad to reduce ringing in the upper midrange, or is that undesirable? Without the pad, the vinyl will be laying directly on the acrylic.

Raul,

You need to run the “numbers” before making specific recommendations in regards to Dsiggia’s theoretical budget of $5,000. Unless one was to buy used components, not always practical with analog, many of your suggestion combinations exceed $5,000. Times have changed and with them prices have gone up!

Since we have already discussed the need for a good arm, one that is both stable in the horizontal and vertical planes of movement when outfitted with a low-output, low-compliance cartridge, and in consideration of the equipment you have suggested, the Moerch DP-6 with the precision arm tubes is the best alternative. Its current cost in the United States is $1,890. Also keep in mind that each precision arm tube is $500 each.

Tonearm = $1,890 USD

Cartridges

Van den Hul MC ONE SPECIAL = $1,500

Ortofon Kontrapunkt B = $950 (On Sale for $675)

Allaerts MC1 ECO = $1,522

Benz Micro M2 = $1,295

Clearaudio Victory = $1,800

Lyra Argo = $1,195

Sumiko Celebration = $1,500

Transfiguration Spirit MK3 = $1,500

Dynavector D17 MKII = $750

With the exception of the Ortofon and Dynavector, all of the above cartridges are over $1,000, and some are way over this price.

Average Cartridge Price = $1,335

Turntables

Transrotor Atlantis A = $3,000

Acoustic Signature Final Tool = $2,500 (This price won’t hold for long.)

Avid Volvere Sequel = $4,000

Nottingham Space Deck = $1,800

Roksan Xerxes X = $3,500

Thorens TD 850 BC = $1,800

Wilson Benesch Circle = $2,400 (With Tonearm)

Basis 2001 Signature = $3,400

VPI Scoutmaster = $1,700 (Estimate without Tonearm)

Average Turntable Cost = $2,678

Cost Summary

System Range = $4340 to $7,690

System Average = $5,903 (A Budget Breaker)

The Raul Special = $5,685
(Includes the Acoustic Signature Final Tool, Moerch DP-6, and Benz Micro M2).

My Raul, you do have expensive tastes, especially when it comes to turntables!

So let’s take a sanity check: I like the Moerch arm, but I don’t like the Space Deck, Thorens, and VPI Scoutmaster; I would never buy these tables for myself. Of the cartridges listed above, I like the Benz Micro and the Dynavector. So let’s say I go with the Moerch and the Dynavector, which leaves the turntable. Of the tables that remain on my theoretical “short list,” I like Transrotor Atlantis, Acoustic Signature Final Tool, Avid Volvere Sequel, and Roksan Xerxes X, all of which have an average cost of $3,250. With the exception of the Final Tool, the others are more than I can afford.

Since we have blown the $5,000 limit, here is the Artar1 special:

Teres 255 = $2,775
Origin Live Illustrious = $2,400
Shelter 501 II = $800

Total $5,975

Raul, with $6,000 to work with, what’s your recommendation? And don’t blow the budget this time!

Hey Doug,

What does ROFL mean? Is it like “ROTC?”

I think it’s fairly obvious that Twl is very knowledgeable, but I don’t know how he came by that knowledge. Some amateurs are quite talented. Maybe Twl is one of them. But apparently he is not an amateur so it would be interesting to learn about his background as well as yours. So start talking… : > )

And thanks for the very informative experiment you ran this week. But the very things you described missing in the expensive turntable/tonearm combination used with a cheap cartridge – “no highs, not much bass, kinda slow and sludgy” – are some of the attributes of the Koetsu Tiger Eye/Denon setup, except I didn’t really hear slowness and sludge. Hmmmm?

Letch,

I wouldn’t imagine that there’s a large difference in sonic quality between the platters used on the Teres 255 versus the one used on the 265, but you will need to ask Doug for more information. I think it’s more a matter of aesthetics than sound. I prefer the look of acrylic on wood, rather than wood on wood. But that’s me.

While you know I like the Teres 255, please keep in mind that you will have to do some finishing work, and you will need to feel fairly comfortable with that decision. I am sure that more than a couple of hours are required despite what is said on the Teres web sit. But if the process does not intimidate you, by all means go for it!

If I were to buy the Galibier, I would choose the upgrade platter, especially after reading Twl’s comments above about rotational momentum reducing stylus drag. I think that’s important. However, the PVC platter does not appeal to me from an aesthetics point of view. Sure PVC might be heavier, but I like the look of acrylic much better.

I don’t know what you have read about acrylic platters, but there seems to be many turntables that use acrylic for their platters including Clearaudio, Transrotor, and Bluenote, just to name three. And if you go with the lead-shot version, you will be buying a platter with a lot more mass, which should help reduce the upper-midrange resonance that Twl talked about. I am also wondering what a platter mat might do as well?

Let me know about your listening impressions after you have heard the Teres. I won’t get that opportunity before I buy.

Jphii,

Wow! Wow! Wow! What else can I say? You have done a fantastic job! And you make it sound so easy, which of course it is not. You have much to be proud of, and your turntable is just gorgeous! Congratulations! Thanks for sharing.

>>The quality level I was shooting for is probably a little less than what Chris sends out.<<

It looks the same to me. I can’t tell the difference, and it seems perfect to me.

>> Layout holes, drill holes, fill holes with lead, plug holes, making sure that the curly end grain on each of the teak plugs lines up exactly, then sand.<<

How did you sand the plugs when it looks like the grain of each plug does not go in the same direction as the reset of the base?

>>Many coats of shellac, using steel wool in between each coat.<<

What type of shellac did you use? Did you brush or spray?

>>Final polish with pumice suspended in paraffin oil using a felt pad.<<

Is there any source I can turn to for more information about this polishing technique? What grit of pumice did you use and how did you suspend it in paraffin oil? Where did you get the felt pads?

>>The other thing I did was to make sure the top and bottom surfaces were parallel. I mean parallel within .005” using a surface plate and dial indicators.<<

Incredible! Great job!

>>Now I have steel templates to use for the next ones I build. There are a couple going now, out of various materials.<<

You’re going to build more turntables?

>>If I ever get time to revise my site, I’m going to include a quite lengthy Word document that details what I did, complete with sarcasms and my bombastic wit!<<

I look forward to reading it! What a great story!

Rauliruegas,

The Moerch DP-6 with the precision arm tube is $1,890 in the United States. Sorry, that's the price.

Doug,

>>Now you have to work out ROFLMAO.<<

Hmmmm…

Wait a minute…I think I have it…no wait…Hmmmm…

Don’t tell me: it’s how a dyslexic spells “Alfa Romeo?”

>>Well, that's probably the 25-year-old cart and 10-year-old suspension. It was musical though, with no extraneous noise from the TT of course. How was the Koetsu/Denon setup in that respect?<<

Well, I have to sort out the contribution made by the speakers to the overall sound, but I think I can do it.

First, the Denon was very susceptible to acoustic feedback like sticking one’s head in a rain barrel while someone else was beating it with a club. Now, that’s an exaggeration, but I was very conscious about NOT getting out of my chair to wander around the room, a small den on the second floor, for fear that my footfalls would be transferred to the speakers. I also noticed that Bob was also very careful not to jump up suddenly while the record was playing. I further noticed that Bob lowered the Denon’s dust cover VERY carefully, which still managed to send a LOUD thud to the speakers. You know, the sound of dropping a 100lb bag of potatoes from a second story building. These experiences told me that the plinth and platter (a good name for a pizza parlor for audiophiles) were doing a very poor job of providing good isolation and damping.

Second, while the midrange was clear and present, I noticed a lack of good pitch definition in the bass, which may have been due to the Carver Amazing Cubes rather than the cartridge. And there was a noticeable lack of upper-octave bloom and air that should have been there. When the music was first turned on, the subs were outputting too much “boom,” so the first order of business was to reduce their output. Then I had Bob adjust the bass Q of his Amazing speakers to 1, which is fairly tight and fast. This is how I have my woofers set up, and I believe it better corresponds to lower frequency reproduction in the concert hall and in real life, such as artillery fire, which I have heard close up. (By the way, no subwoofer ever made can even come close to reproducing the retort of a 105mm howitzer. Maybe that’s why I seldom listen to the finale of “The 1812 Overture” that so many audiophiles insist on playing. Give me a string quartet any day!)

Once the bass was brought back into line, Bob “goosed” (honk!) the midrange so that it would have more presence, but not at the expense of the very top octave. All was well, but I still noticed a slight lack of the rich overtones that live music possesses, especially when it’s played in the San Francisco Opera House. Okay, no biggie I told myself, but then I had to remember that I was listening to a $10,000 cartridge (now $13,000), and I was a little underwhelmed!

At the Analog Room many years ago, I heard a Koetsu cartridge on a Sota Sapphire Turntable with a modified SME tonearm driving a pair of Quad ESL 63s. Wow! There was life, breath, depth, air, and atmosphere in the records being played, a sound so beautiful that no CD player I have ever heard regardless of cost could possibly match. With this “gold” standard in mind, the Denon/Koetsu sounded more like a smooth, homogenized CD than really great vinyl; that’s how much deadening was applied to the music thanks to the Denon turntable.

While the midrange had presence, clarity, transparency, and openness that were very impressive, it lacked the ultimate in layering, shimmering nuance, and three dimensionality of the best tube/analog-based systems I have heard. The electronics were partly to blame, for they added a very slight dryness to the mix, but it was minor. Nevertheless, the Koetsu cartridge was at the helm, and I expected more, but the slightly dulling effects of the amp/preamp/turntable combination held it back. If the Koetsu had been mounted on your turntable, Doug, I would predict a far different outcome. Gone would be the sublime neutrality of your ZXY, and in its place we would be bathed in glorious golden tones with exquisite air and detail.

Huba! Huba! Huba! Oops, I think I need a cold shower!

Doug,

The bass, midrange, and treble controls were on the back of the speakers! Now that's amazing!

The sound was not as bad as I have painted it, and it wasn't overly warm either.

By the way, Bob lives in Washington so the Sound Room would be a little far for him.

Twl,

I fully appreciate how lengthy the DC vs. AC discussion can be! Wow! Thanks for the information.

>>AC Synchronous motors use the AC line frequency (60Hz) that is generated by the power company to use as a speed reference that keeps their motor speed "constant", similar to an electric clock.<<

So the line frequency never varies? It’s always 60Hz?

In your estimation, what is the best controller for a DC motor?

>>Since the ear is most sensitive to minor speed variations occurring in a rapid manner (flutter), we strive to minimize flutter, but the methods we use may result in slower variations (wow).<<

You have given an excellent definition of flutter. I now understand that concept much better.

>>However, it is generally conceded that a well-implemented DC motor can sound better than an AC synchronous [one].<<

This is my understanding as well.

>>The individual TT makers use their ideas of what the best method is, and the user must decide which he prefers sonically. Most of the best units are very, very good, and will not intrude into the listening experience noticeably.<<

Good point. For most of us, how the motor controls a Teres turntable will be nearly inaudibly, especially for someone like me. Frankly I am not too worried about the AC vs. DC debate because under most circumstances I would have a hard time telling the two technologies apart on a sonic basis. Nevertheless, I am glad that the people at Teres have taken DC regulation seriously and have done as much as possible to create the best motor possible for the money.

>>If you want a better platter than the acrylic because of the reflected resonance issue, then stepping up to the next higher level of platter will be useful, not adding a mat.<<

I understand. The acrylic will be good enough for my purposes. Several turntable manufacturers use it. The other popular material is aluminum. But these platters always seem to have a mat. However, a few companies are using composites. I guess they are hoping that a mixture of materials will provide the best of all sonic worlds. But this may not be the case. Composites might simply magnify the weakness of each element used or create a rather dull sound, like mixing too many colors together on a painting which oftentimes creates a brown, gray, ugly mass.

>>In fact, every single choice you make as an audiophile will have plusses and minuses. It is up to you to select equipment, which has the plusses in the areas of most importance to you, and has the minuses in the areas of least sensitivity to you. This is the crux of assembling a satisfying system that will meet your needs as a listener, and it is also why there are so many different ideas of what is "best".<<

Brilliant! A wonderful statement! You have given the best argument against audio-absolutism I've seen, the idea that there can be only one best component for a given category, an idea promulgated by such people like Harry Pearson and Arthur Salvatore.

Twl,

>>Dan_Ed, the lead loading in the Teres acrylic platter could have the effect of improved perceived bass response.

Essentially, the greater rotational mass will improve the ability of the platter to retain its speed through the tall steep peaks that are present in the bass information in the record groove. This will be perceived as faster and better dynamics in these frequencies, and will add impact.>>

It’s this argument that has encouraged me to save a little more for the lead-shot platter. I think the added cost will be worth it.

>>In my case, I have selected the plain acrylic platter. This is not because I am not aware of its shortcomings, rather I am aware of them, and settled on this because it provided performance that was acceptable to me for the price I could afford. In nearly all cases, this type of "settling" needs to be done by the purchaser. Most people cannot afford to buy the most expensive product on the market, and even if they could, perfection is not attainable, so some compromise is being made at all levels. Additionally, as time marches on, even the "best" products get beaten out by some new ideas/technologies/
implementations that may occur.<<

Another brilliant synopsis, the best I have seen! It’s this type of information that would be of the greatest use to readers of TAS and Stereophile. I seldom see this kind of information. What you have stated here might take one ten years or more to learn, and for some of us it might always allude our grasp.

>>While I am not enamored in general of the sonics of acrylic, it has its good points, and my platter (while imperfect) provides a very enjoyable experience, even if I am aware of the slight reflective resonance issue, and its relative lack of mass compared to the higher priced platters. I am also aware of dozens of other imperfections that are present throughout my entire system. There are imperfections abounding throughout my system, and everybody else's systems, for that matter.<<

While I am aware of the imperfections of my system, at some point I let go of the pursuit of perfection and simply listen to the music from an emotional plane, rather than an intellectual one. I know it’s sometimes difficult to do so, but when I critique too much I run the risk of missing the whole point of listening. My system already gives me a heightened sense of pleasure. Sure I can make improvements, but like you have said, Twl, there comes a point where I can no longer afford to upgrade nor can I continuously change the components in my system.

>>What I am saying is that there is a point for everyone that is a good "happy ground" for the ratio of price to performance. This point will differ greatly, depending on the needs and budget of the audiophile in question. I found a good "happy ground" for me.<<

What you are saying here is the basis of a badly needed editorial or essay that should appear in the audio press. This editorial is the type of subject we audiophiles need exposure to rather than being told to honor our local dealer by the self-righteous and sometimes sanctimonious Robert Harley.

>>What I have done personally, is made a lifetime of learning and study and listening experience, as both audiophile and industry insider, to equip myself with the knowledge to understand what is involved in the selection, application, and use of audio systems. I have even engaged in the designing and building of various products in the chain, to further my understanding of the technical aspects of this hobby. All this experience over 30+ years has shown me that nothing achieves perfection, and that everything is flawed in some way. The closer you get to perfection, the more the product costs. I have recognized that this "happy ground" is where the true enjoyment of listening is. I have found that I can recognize that equipment is flawed, understand why and how it is flawed, and still enjoy my musical experience. I simply use my knowledge and my budget to the best of my ability to gain the most sound quality for my money, while being fully aware of all the shortcomings. I select my equipment to be as maximized as possible in the areas that I am most sensitive to, and get the least possible flaws in the areas that I am less sensitive to (in accordance with my budget).<<

I quoted you again without cutting any text. What you have said here needed to be repeated, for its that good. By providing your balanced philosophy and many years of experience, you are helping a lot of people, including myself, make better audio buying decisions. For this I am grateful.

>>You will never find equipment without flaw. You just have to learn to live with it.<< This is the art of the hobby. Because after all, the purpose is to enjoy music, and if the quest for perfection wrecks your ability to listen with pleasure, it is all for naught.<<

Amen! What else can be added to this very adroit observation.

Ccryder,

And when you finally buy a good turntable, you will really know what you have been missing. Then it’s off to buy vinyl!

Mrkidknow,

>>Have you ever seen this list of recordings before?<<

Yes.

>>Arthur Salvatore can be pretty controversial…<<

Yes, that he is. You might want to contrast Arthur’s style with how Twl views the world.

Personally, I don’t subscribe to audio gurus or follow the Ten Commandments as prescribed by TAS, Stereophile, or others, although Twl and Dougdeacon are two people I listen to before making any audio buying decision. But the operative word here is, “listen,” and not follow blindly. We still must use our ears and our own experiences in choosing the components that will make up our system. It always surprises me how many people abdicate that responsibility to others, asking them to make all the decisions for them so they might have a SOTA system without having worked for it.

In some cases it’s not possible to hear a component befor buying it. In such cases, it makes sense to read the audio press and to gather the opinions of others. But even that entails homework. Before I posted my initial question on this bulletin board, I had already spent six months analyzing my needs and narrowing my choices. All I needed was a little help to get unstuck, and I got it with Twl and Dougdeacon’s assistance. Without having spent months wrestling with the issue of which turntable to buy, I would not have had the "ears to hear" the advice that has been so graciously given me.

The Denon/Koetsu combination was good enough to encourage me to pursue vinyl with invigorated enthusiasm so the combination must not have been that bad. If you read my last post on this subject, the one I addressed to Doug, you will see my views on the strengths and weaknesses of the system I had the pleasure of hearing. Was this system state of the art? No. Am I looking for the very best system that money can buy? Again, the answer is no. So, yes, the Denon sounded pretty good to me. It cost about $650 and is the current top-of-the line model from that company. But what you should be asking yourself is how good does your current turntable sound to you and how best can you improve it within an acceptable budget?

I have a slightly different question for the group, one that involves the analog front end, but has not been discussed until now -- preamps. I am talking about affordable phono stages, ones costing $2,000 or less. Does anyone have a favorite they would like to share?

I am currently looking at three models in addition to perhaps buying the phono stage for my current preamp, which, by the way, should be quite good:

1. GSP ERA Gold V with either the GSP Elevator or Bent Audio Mu step-us transformer.

2. K&K Audio SE Stereo Phono Kit.

3. Wright Sound Company WWP 200C with the WMT 100 Step-up Transformer.

So what do you all think? Comments? These preamps must be good enough for the Shelter 501 and ZYX Fuji.

Thanks in advance for any help you might be able to provide.

Raul,

I think I have already stated what you have now just posted. Yes, the cartridge is important. I am not sure that anyone here is disputing that. But the turntable and tonearm are also important too, just as you have said.

Here is what I said 15 days ago when this tread first began:

>>It may be a little strange that I have decided to start with the cartridge, but I believe it's the cartridge that has the biggest impact upon the sound of an analog front end. That is not to say the turntable, tonearm, and phono preamp have no influence because they certainly do. But I feel the cartridge and its requirements need to be considered first, like speakers, before the rest of the analog system can be chosen. For example, the choice of cartridge influences the choice of tonearm. The tonearm needs to have the proper mass to be compatible with the compliance requirements of the cartridge. Moreover, the arm has to match the turntable and work well with it too. So all these components have to be chosen carefully and balanced in order to get the best sound possible.<<

So you see you and I are not that far a part, and in fact I think we are saying very much the same thing.

Rushton and Dan_ed,

Thanks for the recommendation, but the Aesthetix Rhea is a little beyond my budget.

The Rhea is a great phono stage; there’s no doubt about that. How do you like yours? Do you notice any tube rush? How is the top secured to the chassis? The Stereophile review talked about heavy-duty Velcro being used instead of screws? Is this true? And then there are all those tubes, ten in all, right? Wow. I wonder how much that costs to retube the unit. I also noticed that the output impedance of the Rhea is a little on the high side, measuring 2K ohms across most of the audioband, according to Stereophile, and rising to about 3K ohms at 20Hz. My line stage has an input impedance of 25K ohms, which may create some compatibility issues, namely reduced bass output. Ideally there should be at least a 10-to-1 ratio between input impedance to output impedance. The 3K ohm rating is a little marginal for my Klyne.

Psychicanimal,

The music is in the original performance, 100%, which emanates from the minds and hearts of the musicians and conductor, if one is present, as the musicians play their instruments to create sound. The performance is but a fleeting moment in time captured on an analog master tape and then later transferred to the vinyl disc. The disc becomes the sonic equivalent of Michelangelo’s marble from which art (in this case, music) arises once liberated by an audio system, of which the turntable, tonearm, and cartridge, acting together, are the sculptor’s chisel. Without the vinyl record, there is no music regardless of the quality and eloquence of the analog front end; and without the turntable, tonearm, and cartridge, the vinyl record remains a black and lifeless disc of petroleum by-products; it has the potential for conveying music, but nothing more. Obviously, all four elements are needed if music is to result, along with the preamp, amp, speakers, and cabling.

So now the argument seems to be which element is the most important. That’s like asking what is more crucial, the brain or the heart? Without either, life, as we know it, is impossible. Sure, heart transplants permit a continued existence, albeit a very short one with many limitations and much suffering. Currently, a mechanical coronary pump is no substitute for a living, healthy, and viable heart despite what we might have read. This medical analogy, however, has only limited utility when it comes to assessing the importance that each element plays in an analog front end. Those who argue that a poorly functioning turntable, or one that functions well enough but fails to provide the proper platter rotational speed, low wow and flutter, excellent protection against spurious vibration and rumble, and a proper balance of materials to assist in the best sonic performance possible, are correct. However, those who argue that the cartridge is the most important element, provided a competent turntable/tonearm are present, are not wrong either, at least not entirely. So how is it possible for both positions to be correct? Are we not looking at a paradox?

If one were to argue the validity of a single point of reference (i.e., the cartridge is the most important element) to the exclusion of all else, such an argument would quickly lead to a position favoring reductionism and absolutism in a situation that clearly suggests that the balancing of all the three elements (turntable, tonearm, and cartridge) is required to create a harmonious whole where the total is more than the sum of the parts. (This supposition would also be equally true if the turntable had been argued as being the only important factor that mattered.) Stated another way, the turntable, tonearm, and cartridge issue is like solving three linear equations with different unknowns (x, y, and z). To leave one equation unsolved would mean to obtain an incorrect outcome, or at best, a partial, but incomplete answer. All three elements (turntable, tonearm, and cartridge) need to be considered simultaneously, with an equal probability given that anyone element could be scrutinized momentarily to the exclusion of the other two. If this process were allowed to continue long enough, one would have the benefit of seeing the entire picture, as well as enjoying the view from all relevant perspectives.

This approach may be fine in theory, but what if another variable is introduced – cost? In a perfect world and with unlimited time, money, and energy, one could spend all the resources necessary to solve the “three equations” to come up with a superior turntable/tonearm/cartridge combination. But most audiophiles are limited by the exorbitant prices of SOTA products, making it very challenging, indeed, to find the most eloquent solution with limited funds. Most of us have to compromise, including myself. So which of the three elements gets shortchange with our initial purchase?

Several of us have already tried, or experienced, the expensive cartridge/modest turntable and tonearm combination, and found it lacking to some degree. Better results were obtained by pouring more resources into the turntable first and less into the tonearm and cartridge, in that order. The logic is simple: it’s easier, when finances permit later, to upgrade the tonearm and cartridge with a great foundation in place, that foundation being the turntable. Over time the tonearm would be updated next, followed by the cartridge.

Pursuing a course in which the cartridge comes first would mean that the modest turntable and tonearm would never fully reveal what the high-performing, high-cost cartridge had to offer. (It’s like buying an expensive FM tuner in a region that plays country music and talk radio on the AM dial, and the nearest classical/jazz FM stations are too far away for really good reception.) Moreover, this situation would not improve dramatically if only one element were upgraded at a time. If the turntable were purchased next, it may not have the correct arm mount for our modest tonearm. Or if the tonearm were to come next, the turntable may not be able to support it properly, and so on. Additionally, as long as the analog front end is being used, the expensive cartridge is slowly wearing out, meaning it, too, will need to be replaced eventually. This replacement expenditure may also put a limit on one’s upgrade aspirations. However, if a reasonably good sounding cartridge of modest cost were selected first, one can sink the bulk of one’s audio dollars in the turntable with the intension of upgrading the arm next and finally the cartridge. Thus, cartridge wear in this situation would be of less concern because the cartridge would be replaced eventually and would, therefore, have less impact upon one’s future upgrade plans.

In formulating my analog front-end plans, I followed the process outlined above to a large degree, and I modified my plans accordingly as a result of all the posts that have been made here. While my initial post asked for advice about cartridge selection, I also, indirectly, asked about turntable and tonearm compatibility. At that point I had momentarily elevated the importance of the cartridge, but not to the permanent exclusion of the other two elements, those being the turntable and tonearm. Throughout this process I have engaged in a juggling act, so to speak, keeping all three elements in motion until I found a solution for each one, a solution that would not only serve the whole, but each part thereof.

Viggen,

If I am a fan of Edmund Husserl, it is without my conscious knowledge and it is quite by chance within the limitations of my “eighth-grade” education, now strained to the maximum!

With a quick Internet query, Husserl seems to be very partial to phenomenology, and is even credited with creating it. While I am an avid supporter of objectivism and positivism, there are, I must admit, states of being and objects in our environment that defy reductionism, experimentation, measurement, and quantification in purely analytical terms. For example, the feeling of love might be measured via a galvanic-skin response, but the depth and nature of that love is largely unmeasurable as being distinct from any other human emotion, such as fear. Both can be detected by sensitive instruments, but the “machine” can only tell us that an emotion has been expressed physiologically, not which feeling. In phenomenology, inner experience is not only accepted, it is encouraged along with a precise vocabulary to describe events, observations, feelings, and sensations. I submit that much of subjective audio reviewing is phenomenological in nature and not scientific, although there are some who might claim otherwise!

If anyone is interested in knowing more about Husserl, here is a brief synopsis I found while cruising the Internet:

>>Husserl is the father of phenomenology. Born in the former Czechloslovakia, Husserl studied in Leipzig, Berlin and Vienna, where he also taught. He began his studies as a mathemetician, but his studies were influenced by Brentano, who moved him to study more psychology and philosophy. He wrote his first book in 1891, The Philosophy of Arithmetic. This book dealt mostly with mathematical issues, but his interests soon shifted. Husserl immersed himself in the study of logic from 1890-1900, and he soonafter produced another text: Logical Investigations(1901).

Some of his major ideas of this era were intentionality, relations, and identity of things. He came to focus on perceptual experience, and as he began to shed his early Kantian ways, he wrote Ideas Pertaining to a Pure Phenomenology and Phenomenological Philosophy(1913). His last three books were Formal and Transcendental Logic(1929), Cartesian Meditations(1931), and Lectures on the Phenomenology of Inner Time-Consciousness(1928), a group of lectures he compiled and edited. His lectures and essays comprise a large amount of his works.

Husserl attempted to shift the focus of philosophy away from large scale theorization, towards a more precise study of discrete phenomena, ideas and simple events. He was interested in the essential structure of things, using eidetic analysis of intensionality to yield apodictic(necessary) truths.

Husserl aided philosophy, breaking the Cartesian trap of dualism with new ideas like intensionality. He was perhaps the most important force in revitalizing 20th century continental philosophy.<<

Dan_ed,

Thanks again for your endorsement of the Rhea. I am sure you are very happy with that phono stage.

As you may know by now, I must wait until next April before I can spend any more money on audio equipment. (I must get through Tax Season before I blow the big wad!) So I can’t take advantage of the current used Rheas on Audiogon. Even if I could, we are looking at a good $700 or more over my budget. (Ouch!)

Without a doubt, the Rhea was a big improvement for your system. I know what you mean by adding more highs, lows, and dynamics. The Klyne did that for me in regards to my Conrad-Johnson PV14L ($2,500) and Proceed AVP ($5,000). And like the Rhea, the Klyne is so quiet that when I place my ear against the loudspeaker, I hear nothing, no hum and no hiss. I can’t say that for either my CJ or Proceed units.

>>Some might find the sound a tad bright, but that will vary from person to person.<<

Hmmm. I have heard the opposite reported by the audio press. It surprises me there would be any brightness at all. Could it be the cartridge? Maybe a different loading is in order? I am only guessing.

>>BTW, that 10x thing is a rule of thumb, not a law of physics if you catch my meaning.<<

I understand what you are saying.

>>The numbers for your system are close enough that only a listen in your system would allow you to know for sure.<<

Unfortunately, that may not be possible.

>>I haven't gotten to rolling in better tubes, which would probably help with the somewhat bright presentation.<<

What tubes did you have in mind? If the Rhea is at all bright, it won’t work very well with my Martin Logans.

>>My previous phono stage was a fully modified EAR 834P, a very solid performer for the money and perhaps you could investigate that unit as a candidate.<<

I now see where you might feel the Rhea is a tad bright. The EAR 843P is more than a tad dark.

Rushton,

>>My recommendation of the Aesthetix Rhea comes from my grounding in the Aesthetix Io Signature phono stage.<<

No more needs to be said. That unit is truly state of the art.

I will see what I can do in regards to buying the Rhea, but I can’t make any promises.

Twl,

You have provided yet another interesting discourse on the importance of the turntable. Keep it coming!

The turntable’s contribution as a provider of all time-domain information is really a mind twister to be sure, but true. One can make the same argument of the transport mechanism in CD players. Without motion, in either case, there is no music.

The bearing is also important, as you say, and it gets so little attention being buried deep in the plinth. Without robust construction, ample lubrication, and being constructed of high quality parts, the bearing will be unable to help the platter rotate at a constant speed without wobble. Even minor movement can create vibration that is then transmitted from the platter to the cartridge where it’s passed onto the speakers as noise. And if the turntable and tonearm resonate too much from airborne vibration produced by the speakers, these resonances create a feedback loop making the situation even worse, something I head with the Denon/Koetsu combination I discussed earlier.

>>The better turntables…allow the cartridge/tonearm combination to perform at a better level because they are presented with the record information from the groove in a more stable manner, both vertically, horizontally, and in the time domain. Without this proper stability of the record groove, no stylus/cartridge can work at its best, and therefore will perform at less than what was intended.<<

If vibration, wow, flutter, and rumble levels are too high, or if they interfere too much with the proper functioning of the cartridge, no matter how expensive that cartridge might be, the cartridge will not live up to its full potential and may even perform at a lower level than a less expensive transducer on a great table. I experienced this firsthand with the Denon/Koetsu combination. While the sound of that combination was good in relative terms, it could have been easily equaled by a cartridge costing only 1/10th the price, or even less. So my experience does correspond to what you have written above. To hear a truly rock-solid turntable spinning one’s favorite vinyl can be awe inspiring: the background is jet-black and silent, every detail is clearly rendered, bass is thunderous and palpable, and there is a prevalent display of upper-octave bloom and air that cannot be equaled by digital.

>>I only point out that the cartridge can only transducer what it reads, and the arm can only hold it properly over the groove, so that the turntable can feed the information to the cartridge effectively…The turntable provides the environment for the cartridge to work. If the environment is poor, the cartridge cannot make up for it.<<

I think this statement sums it up nicely.

Hey Letch,

I am looking forward to reading your report about the Teres-Galibier shootout. Who do you think will win? Which table grabs your attention more? Inquiring minds want to know!

Hey Letch,

When you see and hear both the Galibier and the Teres, you will know quickly which one is for you. Don’t let money alone be the deciding factor; let your heart and your desires guide your final choice. Only then will you be able to live with your decision for years to come, years filled with the sweet melody of vinyl or its driving, pulsating force that will fill your being with gladness.

You can tell your brother that Linns are nice, but show him what I lust after:

http://www.toddthevinyljunkie.com/products/product.php?id=48

If he doesn't like that turntable, then try this one:

http://www.toddthevinyljunkie.com/products/product.php?id=49

Or if this doesn't please him, then he can always try this Transrotor TT:

http://transrotor.skileon.info/code/de/produkte/plattenspieler/tourbillon.htm

Now; I ask you; would you buy a Linn after seeing one of these beauties?

Enjoy!

Twl,

How audio designers achieve their works of art is a mystery to me. I would love to know how various materials affect the sound; how one circuit carefully chosen over another makes for greater depth and harmonic richness; and how a DC motor can be made to rotate a heavy platter at a nearly constant speed. The good designers know, but they are extremely reluctant to explain their art in detail for fear of plagiarism.

All too often we see many components that simply copy the ideas of others. They may look different, but they are really “me-too” products. The Teres and Galibier are genuine and individualistic, as are those turntables from such companies as Michell, Transrotor, La Luce, Kuzma, and a few others. Then there are the copycats, products that are being introduced into the marketplace at present in an attempt to capitalize on the resurgent interest in vinyl. One, however, can always tell the truly ingenious design by its attention to detail, solid build, commonsense operation, and pleasing aesthetics, not to mention sound quality, which is always first rate.

>>I provided some information that I have learned over the years. There is even a whole lot more beyond these things that we have discussed here.<<

What serves us best is what pleases us most if we are thinking and acting independently. All too often audiophiles choose what is popular or what is currently fashionable in the audio press. While printed and online publications have their value, they do not choose for me, nor do the opinions of others on this, or any bulletin board, serve as my final position on any subject. But then again it’s always nice to be influenced by people who really know what they are talking about.

I speak for myself when I say that I am grateful for your very generous sharing of knowledge. I have certainly learned a lot in a very short period of time. What I find even more useful is how you are able to keep a relatively open, objective mind even when someone suggests something that may not fit your personal preference or experience. You never seem to lose your professionalism under these circumstances, which does, indeed, highlight your years of experience and your wisdom, which you have so kindly shared here.

>>Even these few things have caused some significant differences of opinion here. It is good to get some of these ideas out on the discussion table, so that it can be of use to people willing to learn.<<

I have read nothing so far that I feel countermands what you have presented. If anything, the contrary opinions that have been made to date have only served to reinforce your assertions, not detract from them. So you can feel secure in your contributions. They have been very helpful, at least to me, and I am sure to others as well.

>>I do not intend to say that my selections are by any means the only good selections. There are many ways. Long term experience with listening to different items is the best way to learn. Anytime you listen to advice from anyone, including me, there are going to be certain biases present, based upon what the advisor prefers. This is only natural, and has to be taken into account.<<

To be human is to be biased. Naturally, we tend to recommend that what we like and know. But, I have read all of your posts here and a few elsewhere, and I am convinced that sometimes you have been able to transcend your own frame of reference in making a recommendation that seemed to serve the needs of the recipient without any ulterior motive on your part or any apparent antecedent predilection.

>> I recommend getting as much personal experience as possible, so that you don't need to "lean on" anyone else for opinions which might not match your own needs. I realize that there are a number of folks here on the forum that made their buying decisions based upon what I recommended. This weighs heavily on me, because I feel personally responsible somewhat, for their happiness with their analog system. I cannot guarantee that they will like my selections as much as I do.<<

You needn’t worry in my case. One of the major laws of interpersonal-relational psychology is that we cannot be responsible for the happiness of others, but we are responsible for our own well-being. If we are happy and centered, then we are best able to encourage, engage, and evoke the vitality of others. Following suggestions or recommendations as if they were a recipe for wholeness, individuation, and transformation is usually a mistake, for these things can only be achieved through direct experience and hard work. That is especially true when it comes to choosing an analog front end. However, by providing your personal experience in relationship to analog you have made it possible for us to learn and grow vicariously without removing any of the fun of self-discovery.

Flg2001,

Yes, the Denon 103R is a very popular cartridge, one used by several of the people who have posted here. Can't go wrong with that unit.

Hey Letch,

It’s only money, right? That’s what I keep telling myself! Hang in there!

Not to make matters worse for you, have you seen the Redpoint tables? They are breathtaking to say the least.

I know that money will not be the final arbiter in you situation. Sonic performance and aesthetics are important to us both, right? I don’t think it will be a tie. I don’t know why I say that, but I think once you see the top-of-the-line Galibier, you won’t be satisfied with anything else! I know that feeling well. And I bet you’re going have trouble sleeping once you have made your decision. That’s how it is with me. Man I need help. I think I’ll go to AA – Audiophiles Anonymous! “Hi, my name is Artar1…

Also remember that you will need to do finishing work with the Teres if you were to buy the 245 or 255. But you could always by the Cocobolo model! Yeah! That’s the ticket.

Hold me back! Only thirteen big ones for a used La Luce, why sign me up now! What’s 13K, anyway? (That’s more than I spent for my daughter when I bought her a used 2001 Beetle.)

So let your brother buy the Linn. Wait until he sees your Galibier/Teres. He’s going to be green with envy for sure. Man I bet he dumps the Linn or tells you have lousy your rig sounds. Is he older or younger than you?

>>And again, for people like him the magazines plant certain ideas that, as with most people, turn into opinions.<<

You know I have a similar problem, but I try not to let them become strong opinions! : - )

It’s really hard not be influenced by the so-called experts, especially when one cannot see and hear the equipment firsthand. You are very fortunate that you will at least get a chance to see both units before you make a decision, but you won’t be able to hear either one within the context of you own system.

>>We all desire to know things, and as I've seen too often on the 'asylum, confuse second-hand anecdotal evidence as knowledge.<<

Damn, that sounds like me; I had better clean up my act right away. : - )
As I always say, “Others are entitled to my opinion.” Wait a minute, that didn’t come out right. Let me start again. “The opinions of others find their genesis in my well-formed advice.” Oops. Well, you know what I mean?

Unfortunate, first hand experience comes very slowly. It’s not easy to arrange for meaningful auditions of the very equipment we would like to buy. My preference is to ready about this equipment extensively in the press, if it’s available, and as well as online. Then I like to listen to the piece or pieces in the dealer’s showroom. And finally, I like to bring the unit home for testing in my own system. But that’s not always possible either. Finally, I like to listen to live, unamplified music to refresh my memory with what “real” music sounds like.

In this vein, it sounds like you have really done your homework and are ready to listen to your “very short list” of candidates. I think you are doing a great job and will be rewarded with a really hot deck.

>>I have come to respect {Twl’s] views through reading a large number of his posts, and think that he tends to give a very balanced and thorough views without trying to push an ulterior motive.<<

I agree totally. Twl is more objective than Michael Fremer.

>> Some people want to push a certain approach or product as if it's the only way in their "expert" voice.<<

I just hate that, don’t you? When I give advice I try to place it in context to what I perceive the person is asking, not from some hidden agenda of my own. If I don’t know, I simply say so.

>>However, in the end it is my responsibility to sift and sort the data, and come up with my own decision and the accountability of a mistake resides solely with me.<<

I agree. It also helps that when it comes to analog I am not hyper-picky. There are many turntables and tonearms that I could be completely happy with, many of which I cannot afford, however. For me it’s not so much about knowledge of the external world, but knowledge and experience of the inner landscape of my own being. If I come to experience my own inner process without judgment and the preconceived ideas of others, I am more likely to make the right choice, one that fulfills both my mind and heart.

Flg2001,

In all honesty, I have not heard the Denon 103G. Is it similar to the 103D? My first cartridge will be the Shelter 501 II. I am very sure about that decision. I am still working out the turntable/tonearm combination.

In all of our discussions, not much has been said about mass-loaded tables versus sprung or suspended tables. The suspended table may have an advantage over the mass-loaded design, especially in the area of handling acoustic feedback and being more airy and rhythmically nimble, if that’s true.

Obviously the Teres is a mass-loaded table, as is the Acoustic Signature Final Tool, which Raul likes very much. The Teres uses acrylic/wood, and the Final Tool uses soft aluminum. Both tables have received good reviews: reviews of the Teres have been testimonials online while the Final Tool has received two “professional” write-ups.

Currently I am looking at both tables, and will compare and contrast them shortly in another post. The Teres is more aesthetically appealing while the Final Tool may be more robust, although it does use an AC rather than a DC motor. This difference I find interesting, but not too significant.

I am also looking at two other turntables from Origin Live that no has talked about so far – the Resolution Modern and the Aurora Gold. Both have received outstanding reviews. Michael Fremer really likes the Resolution Modern, and subsequently it was awarded a Class B rating in Stereophile, while the Aurora Gold has been reviewed with much praise by Hi-Fi+ and Stereotimes.

So the field of turntables has certainly widened while my choice of cartridge has been narrowed to just the Shelter, which shouldn’t surprise anyone still reading this thread. I have also narrowed the tonearm choice between two Origin Live offerings – the Encounter, which Fremer likes, and Illustrious, which has also received good reviews. Any other tonearm I have considered is either too expensive or does not seem to perform as well as either of these two from OL when a low compliance cartridge is considered. When I get the chance, I intend to share what the critics are saying about these two decks.

Twl,

I am not surprised to learn of your objections to the Aurora Gold in terms of build quality. The pictures of it on the Origin Live web site tell me that story. But it is interesting to learn that you were dissatisfied with the sound. However, maybe that shouldn’t be a big surprise either.

I read several reviews of the OL turntables. One was in Hi-Fi+, a magazine that seems to love everything British, especially Origin Live. Then Paul Szabady of the Stereotimes seems to be equally dazzled by everything OL just like Hi-Fi+. I am sure there’s no tacit collusion, but I am just a wee bit skeptical of Szabady when he uses the Linn as a reference standard. There are several turntables that have eclipsed the performance of that analog veteran so as a yardstick it’s no longer that impressive. Then I could not help but notice Origin Live advertising on the Stereotimes web site. While this is not a crime, it does cause me to wonder about the truth and objectivity of that online publication.

What surprised me the most was Fremer’s review of the Resolution Modern in the July issue of Stereophile. He stated that the Resolution Modern was one of the truly special products he had auditioned in the past 18 years. That’s quite a statement, but yet the turntable only ended up in Class B of Stereophile’s rating system. (Maybe Atkins was not as impressed, or maybe he thinks that his Linn is still the reference standard?) Whatever the case, it seems that Fremer has bestowed greatness on a number of products lately, which raises some doubts in my mind about his objectivity.

>>I have had suspended-chassis turntables such as Linn, and others, and have worked on a lot of others at the shop I worked at. Listened to most of the other brands too, over a long time. I once liked the suspended designs, but have come to feel that the unsuspended designs are more to my liking.<<

I don’t have this level of experience. The last mass-loaded turntable design I listened to was the Clearaudio Master Solution. I had no complaints with its sound whatsoever. The price of the deck was another matter.

With my limited knowledge, a suspended design turntable cannot overcome all of the problems of a suspended floor. It can minimize them, but not eliminate them. A wall mount is the only way to go, but it has problems too, especially if one’s home is vulnerable to the vibration caused by street traffic. As for airborne vibrations, you are right about them, especially if the music is played loud and subwoofers are employed in a smallish room in which the turntable has been placed too close to the speakers.

>…even when I have my big Rottweiler jumping around in front of the TT.<<

You are a brave soul; that would make me very nervous!

Flg2001,

Thanks for sharing your turntable shortlist. It’s always nice to get input!

I think my time for further exploration and rumination has come to an end; a decision is at hand! During the last couple of days I have entertained thoughts of fancy and rampant daydreaming. But enough is enough. I have grown a little tired of the process, which is a good thing, for it means a decision is very close. Well, it’s even closer than that; it’s here in fact. So here it is, my final selection:

Teres 255 Turntable, $2,775
Origin Live Illustrious, $2,400
Shelter 501 II, $800

Analog front-end price = $5,975.00 (Shipping not included)

Anyone who has been reading this thread, perhaps, could have foreseen this outcome; I am so predictable. As for the cartridge upgrade path, that honor falls to the ZYX R-100 Fuji FS. Once again I am sure that comes as no big surprise. How could I ignore Doug’s influence, right?

While the $5,975 is a little more than I wanted to spend originally (It’s all your fault Doug!), this amount will give me a really good system that I won’t need to ever upgrade, except for the cartridge of course, and maybe not even then.

Dsiggia,

I am not surprised to learn of your Supratek Cortese purchase; it will be a natural addition to your system, which is quite nice indeed. But you have a very good preamp already with the Sonic Frontiers Line 3SE. I wouldn’t expect a huge gain in sonic performance going from your current unit to the Cortese, but you will have a lot of fun doing the tube rolling I’m sure. When do you expect your Cortese to arrive? If I were to do it all over again, I would opt for the Cortese myself. Yet, I have absolutely no complaints about my Klyne. Do let me know when it arrives. What will you do with the Sonic Frontiers unit? If you can afford it, I would keep it.

Thanks for the offer on the Tom Evans unit, but I think I will either go with the Wright Sound or the K&K phono stage. I need more information on both units before I make my final decision.

No, I don’t think you’re out of line with your suggestions regarding the OL Silver. If I go with an OL arm, it will most likely be the Encounter.

By the way, I think it’s interesting that Michael Fremer had very favorable comments about the OL Encounter in a recent Stereophile review, but that tonearm was not listed in Stereophile’s Recommended List.

Chris,

As each day passes, my price sensitivity seems to be increasing, notwithstanding the recent political events affecting the White House. I told my wife the other day that Social Security for her and myself will now be either greatly reduced or non-existent. So I told her that we will need to accumulate an additional $300,000 in cash outside our aggressive retirement account savings to accommodate the spiraling health insurance costs, as well as other standard living expenses that would have been covered by SS.

In a totally unrelated event, I purchased, quite by impulse, a new Shure V15VxMR phono cartridge for $212 from Beach Audio. Normally the cartridge sells for $325, but Shure is discontinuing the unit so it’s getting dumped. Some places, however, are charging more than the going “street” price in the mistaken belief that some people will pay it.

The Shure is a very good cartridge, and is not a piece of junk per se, nor is it a world beater. Is it better than the Shelter 501? I doubt it. I have read no review to indicate otherwise. The Shure gets me in the game with little-to-no money, and will make a decent backup cartridge once the Shelter arrives sometime in the future. Its purchases like these that will enable me to put an analog system together sooner than I expected, maybe by June.

If you go with the Teres 255, I am sure you won’t be disappointed. On the other hand you may continue to long for the Galibier; it’s a tough decision I know. It all comes down to how important analog audio is to you and how much you are willing to pay for it. If you were to buy the Galibier, you would never have to upgrade again. I mean, what would you upgrade to, a La Luce? And if I were buying the Galibier, I would go for their top-of-the line unit on aesthetic grounds; otherwise, it would be the Teres 255.

And I understand your desire to get the Schroeder DPS; it’s a beautiful arm, but how much does it cost? I bet it’s a fortune, right?

I’m going to have to agree with you about the materials used for the base of the Teres. While I’m sure Doug, Twl, and others will be able to hear the differences that the various hardwoods impart to the music, I doubt whether I can. And if there were differences I could hear, I bet they would be very subtle indeed, so subtle in fact that it would be hard for me to justify the added expenditure. I feel that the more exotic woods are more attractive to be sure, but whether they are sonically superior to such an extent so that someone like myself could hear and appreciate the difference is another matter altogether.

Hi Guys!

Wow! There’ve been a lot of posts today, and that’s for sure. I am so swamped at work. We decorated our area today for Halloween. Tomorrow I will be coming as a clown. Maybe that’s fitting so long as I don’t make a big fool of myself. So because of the increased workload today, I am writing a shotgun response to everyone.

Rushton,

Thanks for the best wishes. I am very excited about the choices I have made. It’s a little more than I want to spend, but then I won’t have to worry about upgrading later. I think what I have chosen will engage me more in the hobby of analog because I will have a lot more invested. I will say more about this later.

Jphii,

Thanks for the confirmation and the support; it means a lot to me. What I have chosen strikes a good balance, even though I did go over budget. But that has to be a common story for most of us posting here. Somehow the choices I have made for turntable, tonearm, and cartridge feel right to me. I am not so worried that I haven’t heard them in advance. I have listened to good mass-loaded designs not too long ago, and I am sure the combination I have chosen will not disappoint me. Thanks.

Raul,

You mentioned in a previous post that you have heard many turntable/tonearm combinations and that you own many phono cartridges. I would be interested to know how much you have invested in analog. It sounds like a lot, maybe fifty-to-one-hundred-thousand dollars? You mentioned numerous cartridges, turntables, and tonearms. Did I understand you correctly that you actually own all of these items now, or you have simply heard them over the years?

I think in regards to Twl providing an explanation for the notion that the phono cartridge is limited by the quality of the turntable has already been done. I think Twl has already answered that question sufficiently. Are you asking for further elaboration on a subject that has been thoroughly explored?

It’s perfectly okay with me if you consider me to be inexperienced with all things audio. Somehow I am unaffected by that comment. But to label Twl as such, I feel, is an oversight on your part.

>>You have a " long road to home ". Both of you have 30+ years ( at least this is what you told us )of experience in audio and you are ( still ) at a low level of the music reproduction at home: I can't understand why you are not growing up a little faster or maybe you already think are right on target.<<

I am wondering if a language other than English is your primary means of communication, for I am a little puzzled by your tone. I would like to believe that you, as a person, don’t go out of your way to be argumentative with others. Is there any truth to that?

>>Artar1: " you can't go wrong with the 103R ...", this was your advise to Flg2001: sure he can go wrong with that garbage of cartridge.<<

There are many who would disagree with you. You seem to have a very strong opinion here. Are you trying to save us from ourselves?

>>Dear friends: I almost always try to " work " on real facts, my advise to you is that try in the same way: " live experience ".<<

I feel most of the time you are operating from a position buttressed by opinions, which is okay, but I feel a little uncomfortable when you try to claim that you suppositions are, indeed, facts.


Dougdeacon,

Please accept my apologies for teasing you once again. I was speaking “tongue and check” when I was blaming you for my going over budget. I was not at all serious. But then again…

Also thanks for your support; it has helped me a lot in figuring out what I really want in a turntable, tonearm, and cartridge. And I think your prediction about sonic bliss will come true. Happy listening, and thanks again!

Dsiggia,

Thanks for your kind words and support. I appreciate it!

I think you are right about Raul’s position, but the funny thing is that I am not sure what it is. If my memory serves me correctly, I believe Raul maintains that the cartridge is the most important element and should be chosen first, or something to that effect. Hmmmm…

>>Furthermore, you say "four of 20+ persons are really experts on the subject, when I say experts is because they have a high resolution audio system and they have " live experience "<<

Let’s see, if Raul is wealthy, which he might be, then I would like a high-resolution system that would meet his standards. I would be more than happy to provide an address where donations could be made! : > )

Raul,

>>Dsiggia: First I'm not defending my position. If you don't believe or can't understand the " live experience " issue, that's your problem and that's why you " can't learn something ".<<

I feel this to be argumentative and inflammatory. I am curious as to what prompts you to express yourself in this manner?


Letch,

How do you like the Michael Green rack, and how much does it cost? (I am sorry about asking that question.) I don’t have suspended floors, thank goodness. My listening room has a four-inch concrete slab covered by think carpeting. There is no bounce that I am aware of.

I agree with you about not making a hard-and-fast rule about sprung tables in regards to suspended floors. I think you engineering friend might be on to something.

>>1. Table -Teres 255 or 265 or Galibier Quattro ALU
2. Arm - Shroeder DPS
3. Cartridge - Shelter 501 II<<

This looks to be a fine list of components. What about Redpoint? It’s similar to Galibier and looks cool too.

>>Raul - I would not say this is the matter. It is not that Twl and Doug and Artar are "soft and kind", the fact is that they understand that this is a dialogue between people with common interests.<<

I like the emphasis placed on dialog. I try not to deny the experiences of others. These experiences are subjective in nature and are the basis by which we choose audio components.

>> They also understand that there are many relativistic factors here, components, power, rooms, musical tastes and different tastes concerning what kind of sound they want.<<

Right on! I couldn’t have said it better.

>>They are not here to lecture others on right or wrong. They are not concerned with who thinks they're a biggie smarty-pants or an "expert". I find your tone and your dogmatic approach to be more of an authority control thing and while I appreciate the fact that you care about this hobby, I can't take your knowledge seriously when it's presented as the only "truth" or the only "fact".<<

You make a very good point.

>>I am not an audio expert, that I will freely admit. I have been going to concerts for 27 years and have seen thousands of live concerts of all kinds.<<

Wow! That’s a lot. I think that makes you an expert, at least to me.

>>I have been collecting records for 34 years. I have years of experience in record retail and used to be a classical buyer for Tower records. I have only been an audiophile for 8 years. What does all this make me? A person who loves music enough to devote a large part of their existence and most of their finances to it. I am trying to develop a system to play back the music I love and I very much appreciate the help I get on forums to make up for my lack of "audiophile" expertise.<<

It seems to me that you’re on the right track. Yup! No doubt about it! Thanks for posting Chris. You rock too!

Jimbo3,

I don’t think Raul is from Massachusetts.

Dan_ed,

Thanks for your support. As you know, I like your system too. Is it almost finished?

Mab33,

Yes, I will not be getting the Schroeder Model 2, but that does not mean I feel the Illustrious is the only tonearm that should be considered. I will explain more at a later time. I have to return to work; I have a manual I need to finish before I go home.

4yanx,

Thanks for posting, and I got your e-mail! The price I quoted is off the web site that you have suggested. Now maybe the cost is lower, or maybe I am in error. At any rate, it won’t be until next April before I can actually buy my analog front end plus the phono stage. I need to keep saving.

Chris,

LOL. I got it! You know the reference to your tube amp being a “mediocre equalizer.” What a sense of humor you have. Why, I was thinking of starting another thread concerning the virtues of having a 10-band, tube-based equalizer in one’s audio system. Now that would be really cool!

Yeah, I know what you mean about the Redpoint web site not listing prices for their turntables. I figured that if I couldn’t afford the Galibier tables, I wouldn’t be able to afford the Redpoints either. But, you could always give them a call. Who knows, maybe they are cheaper. And if Redpoint is in Colorado with the other two manufacturers, then you could make it a “threesome” visit so to speak. Going to Colorado will clear up a lot of things for you, and it will be fun too.

Similarly, I went to Washington this last summer to visit Bob Carver in Snohomish. It was an eye-opening experience. I really didn’t know what to expect. He was very gracious and accommodating toward my wife and me. I learned a lot and came away being very impressed with the sound of his equipment and utterly fascinated by his success as a designer and as a businessman. He also told me that he is working on a new tubed amp (a "mediocre equalizer") that will deliver 600 watts into 8 ohms! I saw a large shipping box that looked like it had over 50 KT-88s!

By the way, I didn’t know that you lived in Seattle. What a great town. I grew up in Lynnwood, and I lived there between 1953 and 1971.

I, too, think that we are all in this together. If I could get all of my answers from reading TAS and Stereophile and could depend upon what my dealer told me, I wouldn’t have stared this thread. The truth is that most dealers I have met know less than me about audio. I am not trying to toot my own horn, but rather I am only stating how little most dealers know about audio equipment, and especially about analog. I could have gone to The Analog Room in San Jose, a fine place actually, but then I would not be able to purchase the Teres or an Origin Live Illustrious. However, they would have found something suitable for me, but it would not have been very cheap. The Analog Room has some really expensive gear.

I’m sorry to hear that Michael Green no longer makes racks. I guess that I will have to make one myself, although my wife thinks that I will most likely never get around to it. She may be right!

What tube amp are you using? I have Martin Logan Ascents; you know, "low-resolution" gear. I would like to go tube, and I was wondering if you had any suggestions. I was thinking about the Quicksilver V4 Monos, Music Reference RM200, McIntosh MC275, or Conrad-Johnson Premier 140. The problem with the last two choices is cost. I was also thinking about the Jolida JD 3300A. It’s new and replaces the JD 3000A. It costs about $5,000.

I hope things warm up in Seattle! But you may have to wait until March for that.

Artar1

Hey Chris,

How’s Halloween? It’s quiet here.

I took a look at Michael Green’s web site, and his racks and stands are first rate. But then so are the prices. I will most likely make the stand for the turntable. I have to find a way to save money somehow. Maybe I can do it with the rack.

Just like you, I, too, will have Home Depot cut the wood for me. I think they charge a small fee, but it will be well worth it. In that way I won’t have to buy expensive cutting tools for a one-time use.

You have a Sonic Frontiers amp? That’s great. It’s really too bad Anthem stopped making tube gear. It seems like many people have components from Sonic Frontiers, and they seem to love them. Do your amps throw off that much heat so you don’t have to use the furnace? Wow! I wonder how a couple of tube monoblocks will fair in the summer heat of Tracy.

My learning experience has been a gradual one that has taken many years. I read a large number of reviews, listen to equipment whenever possible, and attend live symphony performances, which are now becoming quite expensive. Early on in my audio hobby career, I gravitated toward planar loud speakers, but could never afford them or house them properly in my listening room. My preference is for Magneplanar, either the MG 3.6R or the 20.1. At $12,000, it’s a bargain. However, my listening room is not big enough for either model so I purchased the Martin Logan Ascents instead. There is something special about a panel transducer; it recreates the original event so much more easily than most dynamically-driven loudspeakers that are priced under $10,000. The problem with such speakers is that a goodly part of the cost goes into the cabinet.

I didn’t know that Redpoint is in Arizona. And it doesn't help to know that their tables are apparently so expensive. So it looks like the Galibier will be a more viable choice for you, at least cost wise.

Artar1

In this thread, I have spent a considerable time talking about my upgrade aspirations, which for most people who love vinyl, cannot afford even if they won a small lottery. Now I know that seems difficult to believe given the systems of the people who have posted here, but it’s true. The fact is that most vinyl spinners are not prepared to spend between five and six thousand dollars on an analog front end. I still can’t believe that I am prepared to do so, but that’s the reality of audio today. Most requests for equipment suggestions on the Vinyl Asylum are for systems costing less than $2,000, and in some cases, much less.

So what do we tell such people? Do we tell them if they are not willing to spend at least four grand that they are simply deluding themselves? That doesn’t seem fair or realistic. I don’t know a single person who has spent that much. An audiophile acquaintance at work, for example, someone who makes about 140K per year and his wife nearly as much, is talking about buying a Rega P7 to play his vinyl collection, which must total about 1,000 LPs. He can certainly afford more, for he just dropped seven thousand for a pre-owned home theater processor. Maybe in his case, as it is with many, vinyl is now a sideshow, but I believe that even Circuit City is currently carrying the “black disc!”

So where am I going with this you might be asking as you stifle a yawn or two? Am I now equivocating over my recent decision, or am I simply wasting everyone’s time? The answer is “No” either case. While I was doing all of the research for my analog purchase, I also had an opportunity to unearth information about what would be considered a single step up from an absolute entry-level turntable/tonearm/cartridge combination. I am sure that anyone reading this thread, and whose eyes have glazed over after seeing some of the prices that have been bandied about, might rejoice to know that there are musically satisfying analog front ends that won’t empty the bank.

My first selection is the Musical Hall MMF-7. For a mere $989 (at LP Tunes) one can get a belt-driven turntable, the Pro-Ject Nine tonearm, and Goldring Eroica H moving coil phono cartridge. Normally this combination sells for about $1,200, and the Goldring carries an MSRP of about $400. The MMF-7 has received a number of very favorable reviews and seems to be well made. If you don’t like the cartridge, you can always sell it and buy a Clearaudio Aurum Bets S, Dynavector 20XL, Grado Reference Sonata (with its possible humming problem, although the cartridge does carry a tune I hear); Ortofon Kontrapunkt A (now on sale for $429), Sumiko Bluepoint Special EVO III, or Shure V15VxMR (which may be discontinued soon). If you know of a vinyl lover who has limited funds and is leery of buying used equipment, the MMF-7 combination is one I am sure that will bring years of delight.

For a few hundred more, one can buy the Rega P5, which sports the Rega RB700 tonearm. I believe this table is the replacement of the highly regarded P25, which has been discontinued. The RB700 has a higher effective mass than the Pro-Ject Nine, which means that lower compliance cartridges can be tried, such as the Audio Technica AT OC9. Like the MMF-7, the P5 is a virtual no brainer when it comes to setup, and should be easy to use and maintain. It does, however, only allow limited VTA adjustments, which can be circumvented by several aftermarket upgrades. In fact one of the attractions of owning a Rega is the number of upgrades available for it.

The last turntable on my economy list is the well regarded VPI Aries Scout. At $1,600, which includes the VPI JMW-9 tonearm, the Scout is a real winner that’s difficult to beat for price-performance. One has to spend upwards of $4,000 or more for a turntable and tonearm to obtain only a small improvement in sound from what I have read about the Scout. But keep in mind that the effective mass of the JMW-9 is only 7 grams and it has a somewhat limited provision for antiskating, which is achieved by twisting the tonearm cable, a novel idea to say the least. Because of the somewhat limited effective tonearm mass, one is advised against using something like the Denon DL103R, despite its famed reputation.

There are other turntable/tonearm combinations that one could try; the marketplace is certainly loaded with them. So what I have suggested here is not to be considered the absolute in sound for decent analog playback. Rather, I am offering a good starting point for anyone who is shell-shocked by the price of a Teres or Galibier turntable, or maybe even a Redpoint, just to name of few. Thus, the tables I have described in this post are real-world contenders in an industry enamored with opulence and high prices.

VPI JMW-9 (Effective Tonearm Mass: 7 Grams and Subsequent Resonant Frequencies for the Following Cartridges):

Clearaudio Aurum Beta S (10 gm, metal body; compliance = 15 cm; resonant frequency = 10 Hz; $500).

Dynavector 20XL (8.6 gm; compliance = 12 cm; resonant frequency = 11.6 Hz; $525).

Grado Reference Sonata (6.5 gm; compliance = 20 cm; resonant frequency = 9.7 Hz; $500).

Ortofon Kontrapunkt A (10 gm; compliance = 12 cm; resonant frequency = 11.1 Hz; $429 on sale).

Sumiko Bluepoint Special EVO III (9.6 gm; compliance = 12 cm; resonant frequency = 11.3 Hz; $349).

Shure V15VxMR (6.6gm; compliance = 30 cm; resonant frequency = 7.9 Hz; $325).


Pro-Ject Nine (Effective Tonearm Mass: 9.5 Grams and Subsequent Resonant Frequencies for the Following Cartridges):

Clearaudio Aurum Beta S (10 gm, metal body; compliance = 15 cm; resonant frequency = 9.3 Hz).

Dynavector 20XL (8.6 gm; compliance = 12 cm; resonant frequency = 10.8 Hz).

Grado Reference Sonata (6.5 gm; compliance = 20 cm; resonant frequency = 8.9 Hz).

Ortofon Kontrapunkt A (10 gm; compliance = 12 cm; resonant frequency = 10.4 Hz).

Sumiko Bluepoint Special EVO III (9.6 gm; compliance = 12 cm; resonant frequency = 10.5 Hz).

Audio Technica AT OC9 (8 gm; compliance = 9 cm; resonant frequency = 12.7 Hz; $280).

Rega RB700 (Effective Tonearm Mass: 11 (Approximate) Grams and Subsequent Resonant Frequencies for the Following Cartridges):

Clearaudio Aurum Beta S (10 gm, metal body; compliance = 15 cm; resonant frequency = 9 Hz).

Dynavector 20XL (8.6 gm; compliance = 12 cm; resonant frequency = 10.4 Hz).

Grado Reference Sonata (6.5 gm; compliance = 20 cm; resonant frequency = 8.5 Hz).

Ortofon Kontrapunkt A (10 gm; compliance = 12 cm; resonant frequency = 10 Hz).

Sumiko Bluepoint Special EVO III (9.6 gm; compliance = 12 cm; resonant frequency = 10.1 Hz).

Audio Technica AT OC9 (8 gm; compliance = 9 cm; resonant frequency = 11.9 Hz).

And finally let me recommend the Rogue Audio Stealth phono stage with the Op-amp option for $835. This unit is a nearly plug-and-play device in its simplicity, and should work well with the cartridges listed above. It offers 100, 300, 1000, and 47K ohm loading, and four gain settings: 40, 50, 60, and 65 dB. All settings are made internally using dip switches. Its sound has been compared to the Graham Slee ERA Gold but with the ability to play low-output MCs.

Enjoy!

Chris,

My upgrade path has been a long, but determined one. It’s not easy scraping up the money to buy the next component despite my comfortable salary and lifestyle. Audio is damn expensive, but is only eclipsed by cars and jewelry. Thank God my wife exercises considerable control when it comes to buying jewelry for herself in the same way I exercise restraint with all things audio.

Your friend will need to find a good integrated amp to replace that receiver. How much is he willing to spend? Plinius makes an outstanding integrated that’s not to absurdly expensive, but then again, one cannot beat the sound of a Jolida, which I would recommend highly.

You’re right about the addiction. Most people show considerable restraint when it comes to buying audio gear. Usually they buy the cheapest component that will get the job done, and no more. I seem to be the opposite: I dream about the best possible sound for the money, and then I stretch my budget even further until my head is in the clouds, but my bank account is in the dregs, so to speak. I reach for the highest rung, but it’s really amazing how high and costly that rung has become. One would have to be a multimillionaire to be able to afford many of the components reviewed in Stereophile these days.

I am going to give some of the Black Diamond products a try to see if they improve the sound of my system to any appreciable degree. But I remain a little skeptical.

>>And yes, I feel that I am totally insane to be thinking of spending this much on audio.<<

I agree totally, so much so, that I am rethinking my analog decision. Spending $6,000 on an analog front end is too much and I don’t feel too comfortable about it even though I can afford it. I also need to buy a phono stage and two or more amps for my system. As I was adding up the cost, the price was starting to creep upwards of $20,000 in additional expenditures! Wow! So I took a long cold shower.

So what will be my new choices? Well, I started looking at the VPI Scoutmaster with the Origin Live Encounter tonearm or the Thorens TD 850BC with the same arm. But I think the Scoutmaster will need a special arm board for the OL tonearm, and the Thorens looks cheap to me. So then I went back to the Teres 160, and that’s what I will buy. My analog front end will now have a Teres 160 turntable ($2,250), an Origin Live Encounter arm ($1,500), and a Shelter 501 II cartridge ($800). The total price will be $4,550, only $50 over my original budget. I think I can live with that!

In all likelihood, I would not be able to tell the difference between the Teres 160 and the 255. The only difference between the two is the hardwood used in the plinth; everything else is the same. Not only that, if Dsiggia uses a Teres 160 (and his system is great!), then it ought to be good enough for me!

That’s my very latest thinking. Now I will have enough money to finish the rest of my system by June or July of 2005! Whoopee!

Dsiggia,

In regards to the phono preamp, I am willing to spend up to $2,000. In a previous post I mentioned some of the phono stages that have caught my eye. To this list I have added a few more:

1. GSP ERA Gold V with either the GSP Elevator, or Bent Audio Mu step-us transformer ($1,750 to $1,952)

2. K&K Audio SE Stereo Phono Kit ($1,500)

3. Wright Sound Company WWP 200C with the WMT 100 Step-up Transformer, or Bent Audio Mu step-us transformer ($1,100 to $1,650)

4. AcousTech PH-1 Premium ($1,500)

5. Klyne phono board added to my current line stage ($2,000)

The K&K is very popular; both 4yanx and Ozzy62 use one in their systems. Amandarae uses the Wright Sound Company phono stage and seems to like it very much. The Klyne was reviewed by Larry Kay in Fi Magazine.

(http://www.klyne.com/pages/reviews.html)

Both the GSP and AcousTech are rated “Class A” in Stereophile for what it’s worth.

I appreciate any input you might have on this topic.

Thanks.

Hi Doug,

If I go with an OL arm, it will be an Encounter or higher. I will pass on the Silver.

Chris,

I understand your situation with the Galibier. Their top-of-the-line model really catches my fancy, only eclipsed by the Redpoint tables and the most expensive ones coming from Transrotor and La Luce. As you know, however, I can’t play in those leagues. I will never have the money to buy something like that.

If you go with a Teres, you will need to go with the finished cocobolo 255; otherwise, you will be required to do some finishing work. Now the Teres web site claims only a couple of hours are required; I am skeptical of that assertion. From the Teres 160 pictures, it looks like the acrylic parts also need to be polished. If that’s true, I think a polishing wheel will be needed.

The Schroeder is a well-respected arm. If you have your heart set on it, you might as well get it. But it does look a little temperamental and perhaps somewhat difficult to install. For me the price is a major barrier.

I agree that a good rack is essential. I have a reasonably decent one from Bell’Ogetti, but it is not audiophile quality. I wanted to build one myself, but my wife talked me out of it. I believe that one can build a very sturdy and reasonably good sounding rack from scratch for a fraction of what some of the more exotic ones cost. But then you will need the tools and the time to complete the project.

On several occasions you mentioned going back to school. What program will you be enrolling in?

Twl,

Perhaps you might consider doing a column for one of the audio magazines. I learn so much more from your posts here than from my subscriptions to TAS and Stereophile. Once I finish setting up my system, I plan to cancel my subscription to both.

“Nobody can tell you what is "right for you," except you. We can only make suggestions based on what our past experiences have been, and we don't have your system and listening environment here at our homes.”

This statement is perhaps the most enlightened audio observation I have ever seen. Nearly all the audio dealers I have met over the past 30 years and most of the people who write for the audio press are so opinionated, arrogant, argumentative, and hackneyed in their stance on what sounds good and on what equipment others should buy and own it goes way beyond disheartening. It’s nice to know that I have the freedom to choose what’s right for me and my tastes in music without having to worry about what others might think or how the self-appointed audio critics might react to my audio selections. It’s really refreshing to read your posts, Twl; it makes being an audiophile really fun and exciting.

Hi Chris!

Nice post. I've been under the weather so to speak. And I have been doing a lot of thinking about my priorities in regards to vinyl. Tomorrow, I will post some of my thoughts and respond to what you have written.

Artar1

Hey Chris,

I hope you had a great Thanksgiving!

It’s been awhile since I have written anything in regards to this thread. It could be burnout or it could be health issues. Well, whatever the case, I’m back.

I am glad to hear that you have gotten something out of the posts that have been made here; I know I have. A little over a month ago all I had was 20-year-old experience with turntables, which was hopelessly out of date. Sure, I have read a number of Stereophile analog reviews, especially Michael Fremer’s Analog Corner, but that’s no substitution for extended direct experience with the best turntables currently being made. Wouldn’t it be great if we could have any turntable we desired setup in our listening room for comparison with any number of other potential candidates? Such a situation would make turntable hunting far easier than the purely theoretical approach with which I am currently saddled.

>>I am going back to college to work towards my Doctorate in Philosophy. I have a BA in Liberal Arts (Philosophy and Mathematics) and have decided to leave software alone and get back to things I really love, reading books and discussing them with others. I have written on art and music in the past and would like to do so in a more academic setting.<<

Your future college and career goals sound great to me. At one time I had aspirations to become a clinical psychologist. It was a grand and noble idea, but one that was too difficult for me to bring into fruition. The profession itself is quite demanding; requiring one to possess nearly endless empathy and having it at the ready was more than I could handle. It was all too easy for me to be utterly caught up with the difficulties of others for which there seems to be no end. Then there was the long course of study and the even longer internship requirement of 3,000 clinical hours after the Ph.D. matriculation, another major stumbling block indeed. So I played it safe by pursuing a wonderful, but now rapidly vanishing career in technical writing.

I loved your reference to tonearm philosophy, for that’s exactly what it is! It’s really a question of deciding whose tonearm design appeals to you the most and then purchasing that “audio experiment,” as it were, for it truly is an experiment, a work in process. When you buy a Schroder tonearm, for example, you are buying a work of art, the living aspiration of a gifted craftsman, which can transform your system into a cutting-edge facsimile of the real thing. But then there’s Triplanar, and what about Graham Engineering or SME? I don’t have that kind of money so the answer will always be a fanciful one.

I don’t know whether a Schroder arm is any more difficult than any of the other high-end tonearms on the market, but one thing is certain, any arm that you set up yourself will be more demanding than using the integrated arm that comes with something like a Techniques SL1200. If you have the proper tools and a good set of instructions, I am sure you will be able to determine proper cartridge overhang, tracking force, VTA, and azimuth. My only concern is the reliability of the “thread” used in the Schroder arm. What is its tensile strength, what is it made of, and how does it affect curing? These are the types of questions that seem to pose themselves naturally. First-hand knowledge, of course, should answer all of them.

Your alluding to “getting off the merry-go-round” is a good one, something I’m trying to do, but at a less expensive level. I think you realize by now that the drumbeat of perpetual upgrading keeps high-end audio manufacturers and dealers alike very happy (and should I also say very profitable) while the rest of us struggle to scrounge up the capital to pay for ever spiraling high-end audio costs. I can’t think of any other industry, besides medicine, in which prices are constantly rising much faster than inflation. After my system is complete, I won’t be buying any new hardware unless a component breaks and it can’t be fixed.

By the way, how much is the Grand Prix Audio Monaco stand? Did you ever consider Billy Bags? What about something from Salamander? Is that stuff too “low-Fi?”

And I have another question: what is wrong with your Oracle turntable? Isn’t it a fairly decent deck? Do you think getting another table will make a big enough difference to justify the cost? Maybe another way of putting it might be this: have you identified a weakness with your current table that you know you can ameliorated by the purchase of another turntable? If not, your purchase may simply sound different but not better.

Good luck to you on your Colorado trip.

Enjoy!

Doug,

Your statement below probably best summarizes my main reservations about buying a Schroder other than price of course:

"It does have a certain delicacy that takes getting used to. There's no finger lift or armtube lock! It's not an arm for the fumble-fingered or careless. The arm itself is robust enough but cantilevers are not. Since the arm is not locked when sitting on the armrest, I'd keep the stylus guard on at all times. That's about the only risk I could see."

What you have written here is more to what I was trying to say earlier. Thanks for the clarification.

Chris,

I’m glad to hear of your restful Thanksgiving break. Listening to records and reading thought-provoking material is always a great pastime!

Thanks for the Rockport link. That’s some turntable! It's well above anything I will ever be able to afford, that's for sure.

Before spending the big bucks, you could always try a speed controller with your current turntable to see if it will make any difference.

I think you have your heart set on a Schroder, so you should simply get it. You most likely won’t be happy with anything else. I think it's clear that both Chris and Thom feel that the Schroder is the best match for their respective turntables. And now that we know the "string" holding up the Schroder armtube is very strong, there’s nothing to worry about, right? Just don’t leave any scissors lying around near your table when small children come to visit. Snip! Snip!

>>One of the things about perpetual upgrading is that it enables the audio guys to continue to design better equipment because there is that flow of capital into the market. <<

I will have to remember that one. Wow! My excuse for buying new gear is simply, “ I deserver it!” But who is this “I” am referring to and what is this state of deserving? That implies a really big rationalization: I am assuming that the universe does, indeed, have a moral design in which I am the perpetual recipient of good tidings, especially anything analog related. Then there’s plain ol’ “G’me! G”me! That usually works, for it reduces life to its biological-drive-state level. There’s nothing better than plain old id-cathexsis! In other words, if it feels good, do it!

With your new rack, I would anticipate blacker backgrounds, better focus, increased clarity, and better-defined transients with less sonic smearing due to equipment vibrations. Musical notes should stand out in greater relief, and there might even be better spatial relationships within the soundstage. But maybe I am going to far?

Did you say “four large” as in $4,000, or $400? It’s just an extra zero, I know, but what a zero!

And now for some news…

I bought a turntable, tonearm, cartridge, and phono stage since my last post. Any guess what I bought?

To be continued…

Hey Chris,

I'm here. I wanted to make sure the purchase went through before blabbing about it on the net. I will write more.

Enjoy.

Thomas Scheu has died ! What tragic news!

I was shocked to learn of this very sad event. I send my best wishes and condolences to Scheu's family and friends. He will be missed.

Hello all!

First let me say a Merry Christmas, a bit late I know, and a Happy New Year!

Well, several things have kept me away from the keyboard and this thread. The first was my workload, which had been extreme leading up to Christmas. The second was a bit of an emotional let down, so to speak, after I had made both my analog decisions and analog purchases. (Yes indeedy, I bought a bunch of stuff!). The third was Thomas Scheu’s death, which cast a long shadow over everything analog. And finally, I was unexpectedly saddened by the shocking events surrounding the Tsunami disaster in Southwest Asia. Only now do I feel like writing, and then I don’t quite have the same level of enthusiasm as before. But in a week or two I am sure all of that will change.

Oakiris,

So you started out with three grand and blew by that number! Well, welcome to the big spenders club! What do you mean by being realistic? Just go for it, right? If you like the Teres 255 buy it. It’s one hell-of-a turntable, and that’s for sure. If you can’t afford the Teres, wait until you can. Settling for less will only cost you more money in the long run. If you have a turntable, then go for what you really want instead of accepting something that will soon be replaced.

What did I buy? Well I bought this:

Eurolab Premier MKII Turntable
Morech DP-6 Tonearm with a Precision Red-dot Arm Tube
Nelson Pass Xono Phono Stage
Billy Bags Equipment Rack

I will write more about this later. I am running out of time tonight to go into any more details.

Cheers!