3D lifelike sound and impeccable measurements - mutually exclusive???


The more I investigate gear the more it seems that it’s easy to get organic involving sound with flesh and body and a 3D immersive soundstage with the right matching of components but it also seems like it necessitates choosing some components that don’t measure well/add colorations/even order harmonics etc My question is are there components (specifically amps/preamps and integrateds) are out there that combine great measurements and in your mind also have that organic immersive sound that really helps many of us get more emotionally involved in the music or are these qualities mutually exclusive? 
clarinetmonster2

Showing 11 responses by mahgister

I have not heard a system that was exceptional that was not in a room where the audiophile spent considerable effort. I have heard good systems, but none that were exceptional. The exceptional ones were all a work of love and acoustic performance.
Very true ....

It takes me 2 years full time to create my acoustical settings...

But it was the most rewarding job i have ever done....
"
  • 98% I would expect have only a limited and likely inaccurate knowledge of how our hearing and brain processes information (before the screaming starts, we don’t know all the details, but we know quite well the response mechanisms to external stimuli)"

Absolutely wrong. Are you referring to the response of the tympanum? Basilar membrane? Hair cells? Auditory nerve? Inferior colliculus? Medial geniculate nucleus? Primary auditory cortex? Secondary auditory cortical areas? Association cortices? Striatum/limbic system?
Great post....

We dont know very well how the ears works...Then figuring out how to use our ears in a room is a deeper problem than most think it is...My mechanical equalizer inspired by Helmholtz was the solution i created to adress only one of this acoustical problem with an imprevisible result and very successful experiment....


The map is in front of us.....But the reality is not the sketchy map we have drawn....

Not only do we not understood all the relation between physical acoustic and neurophysiology of hearing; but here in audio most think that it is electronical engineering the key to audio perceived experience...

The level of prejudices is huge coming from the market....

Audio perceived experience is mostly acoustically dependent....

In a nutshell almost all amplifiers will sound bad in a bad room, same thing for dac or speakers...The difference between them will not be commensurate to their transformation by being put in a well controlled room acoustically...The difference will be day and night....

Then we have some claiming, no problem, trust us, we understand hearing in electronics design, and we have on the other hand a crowd waiting for the next upgrading plaster to their acoustical wounds....

The stupidest are those who dont trust their own ears to take the journey... Sorry....

Question to them : if you dont trust your own ears how are you supposed to learn concrete acoustic in a specific room with specific ears ? With a computer program simplifying acoustic and reducing it to precise tested frequency response?
If someone tells you they are watch out.
Perceiving and thinking could be the " same" watching out.... This is my point in a nutshell....

To be clearer in intuitive acoustic perceiving IS thinking, and thinking become perceiving....

What is "intuitive acoustic" ? Simple listening experiments

What is an experiment? Faith in yourself....

😁😊
The point is that even measurers ultimately rely on hearing to justify their choices - however important measurements may be to them, it still comes right back down to ‘hearing’ for the most intelligent measurers.
Good post thanks...

This remark of yours is very important...

This is the baron de Münchhausen fallacy...

A dial cannot read itself he need a human interpreter, but the human interpreter could be voluntarily or by birth deaf for example, he will not be able then to  interpret with his ear some sound parameter measurements, BUT he could  work with them in creating a speaker very well designed, like a robot, but he will never listen to it...Then we need dials, we need  someone with a brain to read the dials, and we need ALSO someone with a brain containing a listening history linked to 2 ears to INTERPRET the dials and not only use them....Any good designer ultimate control test for sure is listening his own design...


I verified not long ago that most people dont have a clue about acoustic, even very educated one.... Why?

Because acoustic is not only equations or dials readings, something we apply without thinking much, doing only mechanical calculus, acoustic must be ALSO a personal experience with our own ears to make sense of our own audiophile experience....Intuitive acoustic experience in his own room  is a personal experience so limited it is, very important, to figure out the deepest acoustical problems...

My Helmholtz mechanical equalizer gives me that experience directly, with what is at the foundation of musical or speech experience: the first wavefronts  timing perception by each ear and the way the brain analyse and synthetize the physical waves in " time" in a specific room...

My greatest personal discovery, well known in acoustic, not well known among audeiophiles or even audio specialist, is that the room is NOT a passive sets of walls waiting for the waves to bounce on them... The room is already a delicately balanced distribution of pressures zones field where the wavefronts for each ear are "sculpted" in a way by damping or enhancing acoustical content, but also by the Helmholtz resonators, my pipes and tubes, specifically located, who act on some definite frequencies and their harmonics...All that finely tuned for a specific unique pair of ears, yours...




The different timing events in the audio chain that must be related and translated into one another at the END of the chain are in your room....

There is a timing of bits in a recording session by the recording engineer...

There is the timing of waves coming to the microphone from the theater or from the studio where is  recorded the original event with all the trade-off implicated by the choices of mic and location...And this timing for the mic is very different than  the first wavefronts different timings coming to each ear of each listeners in the original event...

The timing of your speakers drivers so to speak is another important timing...

There is another set of timing events in your own room coming from each speakers to your ears the first wavefront of sound picked by the right timing of the waves crossing the different pressure zones of the room created by the sound itself and all the content of the room...

None of these 5 timing events reduce to one another at all....

The most important one the only one which is at the end and which can be act upon by the audiophile is the timing in his room.... This is the reason why acoustical settings is so important, dac or speakers or recordings so better they could be, will be reduced to a mediocre experience if the room is not adressed...


My second discovery is a mechanical equalizer did not have the same limitations than an electronic equalizer....And it cost nothing to create one....

My best to you....


Excuse me, but you started with your conclusion, that there is nothing wrong with measurements. But your entire argument was nothing but showing all kinds of things wrong with measurements. Then after explaining exactly what is wrong with measurements you conclude that there is nothing wrong with measurements.
Millercarbon read more carefully...

He dont speak about measurement the way the "objectivist" speak about them....

You hurry too much on your horse.....

He confirm what i said and what IS the scientific meaning of measurement : RELIABILITY....He even confirm your take on measurement....

For example point 4 in particular:

Measurements all aim at laboratory standards, royally ignoring the requirements of psychoacoustics. That is, we do not measure sound quality as perceived by the human brain. We measure reliability.



Then he IS NOT an "objectivist" audiophile in the "skeptic scientism sunday club" but a true scientific mind...
As John Atkinson said, with measurement we can tell apart good speakers from bad speakers.
But the only way to tell a great speaker from a good speaker is by listening. (And that applies to other audio gear as well.)





Great post!

Your post add much to my main points and is clearer than mine...

But you are a scientist and you smell science...

So to speak!

My best to you.....
They are not exclusive in fact the best components offer fantastic sound and measurement but they are not the components that the magazines write about but the components that stand the test of time because they are so good and always will be.
Very well said....

They aren’t mutually exclusive but I’d say measurements will get you closer than your ears alone.
It is the reverse... 😁😊



All piece of gear well designed sound good in principle... In reality they differ...For many reasons linked to many factors out of the narrow family of parameters used in the design creation, or linked to forgotten possible parameters,or unpredictible factors and the fact that this piece of gear so well designed it is, will be embed somewhere with something....And anyway any design is the result of a set of choices function of a trade-off....

Which part of your body will decide that this piece of audio gear is usable or good or bad or anything between all these and decide if the trade-off at the source of the designing process is good for you?

Not your brain alone reading schemas, but a brain coupled to your 2 ears in a particular set of acoustic condition called a room....

It is logical because the timing of actual waves event in your room to your ears is necessary for you to make a sound judgement about the resulting potential S.Q. coming from the timing bits coming from the recording process and translated through your dac...

Timing of bits is great but in reality equivalence is not equality, and timing of bits are not equal, even if equivalent, to timing of real events...There is a microphone separing the timing acoustical concrete events of the original lived event and the timing bits from the recording choices at beginning... And now there is a speakers/room/ears separating the timing of bits and the timing of events in the speaker/room and in your brain...

Because with a recording here we have 2 sets of timing concrete events : one recorded in bits in the dac itself, and one not recorded at all; but emerging in your room for your ears from the active room translating the timing bits through the amplifier/speakers in another timing sets of events...

I suppose you play with a dac, but using a turntable will not destroy my argument....



«Numbers on a dial never sing»-Groucho Marx listening to a radio set

«2 timing set of events called bodies must synchronize themselves in the act we call making love, and a piece of gear or the galaxy, nevermind which one, must synchronize and the synchronization is not a completely determined part of the initial timing events»-Anonymus Smith studying scaling design...

«Why not saying that more simply? A range of play between parts and scales»-Harpo Marx

«Are you an astrolog? »-G.Marx
It seems to me that a good soundstage is largely determined by loudspeakers, speaker positioning, and room acoustics. Less so by electronics (unless we’re talking about digital signal processing, maybe.) I’m not aware of any metrics that directly indicate soundstage size or holographic image quality.

So IMO the short answer to the OP’s question is "no", 3D lifelike sound and impeccable measurements are not mutually exclusive. But that is mainly because the measurements that are usually available seem to have little or no bearing on soundstage/imaging. Does a higher SNR ratio and "blacker background" have some positive impact on the soundstage/imaging? Probably. I don’t know how it would make things worse, everything else being equal (which rarely is the case).


Thanks it is also my experience.....

Does a higher SNR ratio and "blacker background" have some positive impact on the soundstage/imaging? Probably.
They impact more and partially the "timbre" experience and perception of the original event recorded by the engineer, but "timbre perception" "imaging" factor, and "listener envelopment" factor and other acoustical factors are linked to the way your actual room RECREATE the recorded acoustical settings in your own room for your ears and recreate the "original" atmosphere using your own room for the "translation" and this is given by real concrete acoustic controls by your specific ears , and not by the electronic design used in your gear only and " per se"...



Acoustic is the reality, Fourrier analysis is the map....

The map is not the reality... Why?

The reality contain and encompass the map, acoustic phenomena contains Fourrier analysis +your specific ears and many other ears.....

You can design knowledge or reduce knowledge to design, you cannot design feeling even with A.I. Only mimic it like map mimic some aspect of reality, sometimes essential one....

My mechanical equalizer, Helmholtz tubes and pipes,are PARTS of the pressure zones of my room....They ARE the room....They are positioned for my ears in this particular room and tuned by them not by frequency but by "timbre" perception ,that is to say by first wavefront perception....

An electronical equalizer is an external analysis of my room with an "ideal" mathematical perspective, modulo Fourrier analysis and "precise tested frequency response used one by one with a mic., for an "ideal" listener that do not exist, the seating location is a millimeter spot and out of it, all run acoustically "amok".....


This is only my limited experience, and no, i am not a scientist, only a listener.....Feel free to correct me....






«If the map is in my head, and if my my ass is in the reality where is my body ? »-Groucho Marx


What measured good is a good design for the eyes of the Engineer...

What sound good is a wavefront of sound touching the ear of the listener....

Between the 2 there i million years of evolution....


Replace any design that your ears could not love or like and keep your ears open....

Remember only that acoustic is Queen in audio and all working gear are only the replaceable 7 dwarves....