35Hz - 25kHz -- A Partial 'Purist'?

Karls, then you haven't heard the Bag End Infra-sub 18 inch subwoofer. Very musical and very tight. Almost too tight if you can believe that. I demo'ed the Bag End for a few weeks and was very impressed. I stepped down a notch musically and went with a Triad Platinum 18 inch sub because it had more flexible dial-in capabilities. But still quite musical.

But, yes, I have an idea what you are saying because most subs under $2k are sloppy and woolly and have little or no definition to them regardless of size. That's why I always use the term musical when I talk about a good or better sub.

I own a pair of Aerial Acoustic 10T's which are an outstanding full-range speaker for the money. But even they only go down to about 25Hz. My Triad Platinum 18 inch subwoofer is quite musical and successfully reproduces down to at least 18Hz. This subwoofer simply supplements the 10T's to a very nice degree. Is it a perfect marriage? I doubt it, but it comes close.

Personally, in my current price range of $1k to $2k, I stay away from all 8", 10", and even 12" inch subs. Why? Because some to many at this size will typically peter out at 30Hz or 25Hz which means they are not really subwoofers in the first place. And at the this price break, there are very few 10 inch quality drivers that can handle the 20Hz regions without breaking up and overextending, congesting, etc..

At the $4k price range and up, the small driver size is less of a concern.

I'm kinda' anxious to get ahold of the Aerial Acoustic SW12 12 inch sub to hear how that sounds.

Sean, the construction quality of the Bag End was certainly not the best. That was another reason I did not want to keep it. However, even though it's been more than two years since I've demo'ed it in my home, I was quite impressed with it's low-end bass reproduction and how tight it was for an 18 inch subwoofer. Apparently, it's impressed reviewers as well.

Is it not entirely possible that some of you never had a good quality sub to work or with and/or you simply were not able to configure it properly with your mains and/or room acoustics?

If we assume that a few of the deficiencies you mention do exist and hypothetically, there's no way to correct them even if you had the very best sub, the very best room acoustics, and the very best system. Wouldn't the minor deficiency or two be worth overlooking rather than throwing the baby out with the bath water?

And that was kinda' my point of this thread.

Because the cannon shots in the 1812 Overture are not reproduced exactly as you anticipated (which itself is subjective) or there was a little hump, you therefore censor the cannon shots altogether?

To me, this simply defies logic. You'll treat your room for deficiencies with the mains. You'll upgrade your amp to solidify and pronounce the bottom regions, you'll bi-wire, etc.. In other words, you'll (IMO) apply band-aids to every other aspect but simply will not entertain the one possible cure that could resolve most concerns in this region.

It kinda' puzzles me I guess.

oops

Tweekerman, I don't think anybody would disagree with you when you state that every choice in a driver selection employs trade-offs or compromises.

Therefore, again I ask, why are people so willing to accept the trade-off's or compromises of the drivers reproducing the frequencies between say 30Hz and 40kHz, but yet are not willing to accept like trade-offs or compromises of those drivers capable of reproducing the frequencies between say 16Hz and 30Hz?

Are you implying that these lower frequencies are so important that unless they are 'perfectly' reproduced, they should remain untouchable, unapproachable, and thereby inaudible?

The situation you describe would send the same frequencies or signal strength to sub as to your mains.

In my case, my pre has RCA and XLR outs. I use XLR outs to the amp and RCA outs to the sub. The filters in sub filter out the frequencies you've desired not to have the sub reproduce.

Good question, Tweekerman. If Telarc's Tchaikovsky 1812 Overture real cannons instead sound like shots fired from a .22 pistol, how much have you missed?

How about Telect's Copland Fanfare for the Common Man cd track 2 where the kettle drums(?) are pretty closely miked, but I have no idea what what these would sound like rolled off at 40Hz. The decay and reverberation continue forever on one or two of these strikes. But some would never know this.

I have a 14 year old Telarc movie score cd. The score from Back to the Future has a deep synthesizer running through about 2/3rd's of the entire piece. If you had monitors dropping off around 40Hz, you would probably never know it.

I have a 15 year old Tracy Chapman pop cd that has some very deep bass (synthesizer I believe). My Aerial 10T go to 26Hz, and the bass notes on this drop off without the sub at around 24 or 25 Hz perhaps. With the sub turned on the bottom goes deeper and continues rather than dropping off.

How about Herb Alpert's Greatest Hits cd (a fun cd) where on the opening of Rotation on track 17, there is a very, very deep percussion that is strong. Without a sub, one would never know it's there. Played it on a friend's system who had an NHT sub two (I don't like this boomy sub at all and neither does he) and the deep notes compressed, muffled, and disappeared. It sounded terrible.

A musician friend brought over a pipe organ music cd because he wanted to hear what he might be missing. He couldn't believe how much deeper, fuller, lifelike, and more 3-D the music sounded with a sub.

These are just a few of my numerous examples of what you might miss.

As for adjusting and re-adjusting, I've tweaked my sub maybe 6 or 7 times times in the last 2 years. Shoot! Some guys swap out their tubes more often than that.

Let me ask you: If you installed a high filter cutoff at say 16kHz where everything above is now gone, what have you missed?

You probably think I'm crazy for even asking such a question. But that is what puzzles me. How can so many be so willing to disgard musical info at one end of the spectrum but not at the other end or anywhere else in between?

Isn't every musical note the equivalant to every other musical note?

If not, then who, aside from the composer, is qualified to determine which notes are worth retaining (reproducing) and which notes are to be discarded? And please don't say 'HP'.

-IMO

Nine months since the last post. I'm curious which of you have since purchased subwoofers? And if so, what are your thoughts?

Unsound, as one who watches TV mostly just for Fox news, the no spin zone, I ain't buying the video analogy.

If the majority of the members here on A'gon did most of their audio shopping at Best Buy, then your video analogy might make sense. But at least those people shopping at Best Buy try as it seems many of them will pick up some cheap subwoofer because they know they're missing something way down there.

It just doesn't make sense for so many to snub their noses at retrieving low frequencies. Especially when they've dumped tens of thousands of dollars into their systems and rooms and especially when some to many others have integrated a subwoofer into their system with much success.

I believe it's a mental block. I also believe somebody told them or they read long ago they were not a 'purist' or true to the hobby if they were to use a sub. So they refrained and continue to do so.

Kinda' reminds me of the scientists claiming for the last 15 years that eggs were bad for us to eat. All of a sudden last year, the next generation of scientists refute the previous generation (as scientists always do) by announcing that eggs are now good for consumption on a regular basis claiming in the announcement that the cholesterol contained in eggs is good for us.

Well, I've been eating eggs all along every chance I could and enjoying every minute of it. Yet there are still many who will not eat eggs to this day because they've been conditioned to think eggs are bad.

I think the same analogy applies to many here and their view toward subwoofers.

Well, that's my take anyway.

-IMO