3-Dimensional Soundstage

By the way if we could  and if we may perceive some relative and alleged differences between two systems ( as i did and as you did for milhorn and your system  asking our opinions ) recorded and compared through youtube or videos from the internet , we cannot really judge these two systems completely, fairly  and seriously without being there in person ...

There is no way to judge a specific system , save if it is a very bad one or  evidently relatively defectuous  or lacking  on one aspect , compared  to another one recorded with a different  mic  at distance through our own system ...

The fact that you did not like my opinion is one thing , the fact that i can be correct in the absolute sense is out of question... I only compared milhorn and yours through my own system... It was a game between two different recording  not a truthfull evaluation of each one system/room ...

It seems the two of you take this game a bit too seriously about speakers  ...

A system/room must be heard in person ...Speakers give sound in a room ...No room is the same ...

Anything else claiming to be a judgement is not serious ...

It is  only a game ...

First , spare me your sarcasm ....

Second , i cannot take seriously your opinion...I will believe Choueiri...

You just said yourself that you had listen to this alleged "coloration" through a video (sic) on your monitor ?...😊

You are a humorist ?

No one can figure out very subtle aspects of timbre perception or spatial qualities about the acoustic of an alien system through a video of youtube played through his own system room ...Guess why ? 😁

We must be there to perceive the qualities in all subtleties...

Now suppose you are right and the BACCH filters degrade tonal timbre, seriously, do you think all reviewers acclaiming it and listening to it are deaf to these degradation of timbre save you with your "golden ears" and your "magical"  monitors  judging it through youtube video ?

Do you think Choueiri will bet his physicist reputation to make a dime with a defectuous toy ?

And by the way the BACCH filters dont repair the acoustic of a bad room or re-place it either ....And they dont replace the gear system defects on which they are used no more than they correct the prejudice of those who dont want to understand or dont understand Choueiri papers ...

I answered your question in your post above...

Instead of understanding the answer you posted non sense and sarcasm to me ...

You acted then exactly like Trump or Biden groupies believing without understanding ....

And if i never listened to the BACCH filters but at least i understand what i read , and Dr. Choueiri is not a marketer for an audio toy by the way , he is an acoustician and a physicist ...

"For the alleged added "coloration" ... Read Dr. Choueiri explanation... There is no added coloration and this is why the BACCH filters innovate compared to other crosstalk cancellation dsp ...If the BACCH filters could add coloration they will not be an acoustic revolution but a more or less useless tool just a toy ..."

 

But I can certainly hear a difference in mihorn videos, so there is added (rather subtracted) coloration on my monitor regardless of the good Dr’s explanation.

Hey, I know of someone who insists he won a major election and figures that if he says it often enough, people will believe it even if not true, whether he believes it or not.

"More critically, the BACCH filter doesn’t introduce any coloration to the signal."

Not supported from the videos presented here.

 

Additionally, if the primary intent is to remove crosstalk, why do they recommend it for headphones where crosstalk is not an issue, and why shouldn’t one just buy the best headphones out there for far less $$$?

First i want the BACCH filters because i already owned one of the best headphone ever designed and i paid it 100 bucks the only hybrid ever designed a mythical beast for 45 years ...I optimize them after 6 months of working with them ... The AKG K340... There is better on some aspect with some costly headphones but not on all acoustic aspects then it is always a top headphone but very hard to understand and drive 😊

For the alleged added "coloration" ... Read Dr. Choueiri explanation... There is no added coloration and this is why the BACCH filters innovate compared to other crosstalk cancellation dsp ...If the BACCH filters could add coloration they will not be an acoustic revolution but a more or less  useless tool just a toy ...

For the headphone, there is more in the BACCH filters that crosstalk filters only here from the mouth of the beast :

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/revisiting-speakers-vs-headphones-in-light-of-bacch-and-smyth-realiser.17359/

«The Smyth Realizer has no way of emulating a pair of BACCH-ed speakers. First, in order to emulate BACCH-ed speakers you would need to make the impulse response measurements (needed to produce the headphones filter) with the BACCH filter on, so you would need BACCH4Mac, but even that will not work as the BACCH 3D Sound process consists not only of a Finite Impulse Response (FIR) filter for crosstalk cancelation (XTC), which, in principle, could be measured by an impulse response measurement system (although not easily, as the filter requires a true stereo (aka 2x2) convolution) but also a proprietary mono correction algorithm than cannot be captured by an impulse response measurement.

With the BACCH-hp module of BACCH4Mac, you make an IR measurement with in-ear microphones and head tracking (a process not unlike that the Smyth Realizer requires) and the BACCH-dSP application then automatically produces, from the same measurement, two filters that are applied in series. The first is a head externalization filter that allows emulating those speakers over headphones (that filter plays the same goal as that produced by the Smyth) and the second filter is a BACCH filter for crosstalk cancelling the (headphones-emulated) speakers. For listening, BACCH-dSP applies these two filters in series to the input audio, along with the the mono correction process, to emulate BACCH-ed speakers. At any time, the user, if he so wishes, can bypass the BACCH filter with a click of a button and hear an emulation of the speakers (non-XTCed), which would then be equivalent to what the Smyth Realizer does.

In other words BACCH-hp does what the Smyth Realizer plus gives you the additional option of projecting the perceived sound in 3D space — not having the soundstage anchored at, and limited to, the (headphones-emulated) speakers as in regular stereo listening.

An additional advantage of BACCH4Mac over the Smyth Realizer is that head tracking is done optically (and very accurately) via a regular webcam (or the built-in webcam in your laptop) and therefore does not require that you wear anything on your head in addition to the headphones.

We generally advise not to think of systems like BACCH-hp or Smyth Realizer, as wonderful and magical as they are, as replacements of the audiophile speaker listening experience (for reasons that include that mentioned by maverickronin) but rather as a way to emulate that experience when you are constrained not to turn on your speakers (someone is sleeping nearby, or you are on travel away from your system). No matter how good your headphones are and how accurate the emulation is, the sensation of sound waves hitting you in the face and body, which adds much to the “being there” realism, is in the realm of speakers and real life sources.

I hope that this explanation is helpful.

Please feel free to reply here, and/or write to us at info@theoretica.us if you have more detailed questions.

Regards,
Buddy
info@theoretica.us »

Now about the mono correction algorithm which corrected what one of the ASR forum member called , «One of the (very few) quibbles about BACCH processing in the past was that it seemed to cause a subjective "thinning" of the tonality of instruments or vocals placed dead center in recordings»

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/mono-correction-algorithm-for-bacch.5721/

Read the explanation of BACCH theoretica :

«The mono correction algorithm is a result of 2 years of research aimed at solving one of the most daunting problems of crosstalk cancellation.

A mono signal in a 2-channel system is defined as one that has 100% correlation between the left and right channels. In real life it is practically impossible to produce a sound from a real acoustic source (or a speaker) with 100% correlation at the right and left ears of a listener, even if the source is equidistant from the two ears, as there will always be a finite amount of left-right de-corelation due to reflections and/or even the slightest misalignment of the head with respect to the source. However, it is very easy to produce a mono recording by having the left and right signals be the same. Any crosstalk cancellation filter, including the BACCH filter, requires a stereo signal (which by definition is not 100% L-R correlated) and therefore has a singularity when the input is mono. This singularity manifests itself as a bass rolloff that becomes more audible as the half-span between the two speakers is decreased below +/- 30 degrees. This fact can be shown mathematically. Therefore, if one plays a mono signal, or a mono-heavy signal (such as some pop music mixes where typically the lead vocalist is mixed in as a mono signal to produce a dead-center image) there would be a bass rolloff (which can be heard as a slight nasal coloration) in the sound of the center image that is audible when the BACCH filter is designed for a speaker configuration that has a speaker span (measured from the position of the listener) that is smaller than that of the regular equilateral triangle (the so-called "standard stereo triangle”). Activating the new Mono Correction algorithm completely fixes this problem. A mono signal, or the center image of a mono-heavy signal, will no longer have any coloration through a BACCH filter and will have the same tonal character as when the BACCH filter is bypassed.

For large speaker span half-angles, say 45 degrees and above, there should be no audible coloration to a mono center image through a BACCH filter and no mono correction would be needed. However, since the speakers of most stereo systems are typically configured with span half-angles smaller than that value, the new mono correction algorithm is required, and is very effective at fully restoring the tonal integrity of the center image, as you noted in your astute comments.

Buddy Gardineer
Senior Development Engineer
Theoretica Applied Physics»

Great post!

People must read about crosstalk and Dr. Choueri research ...

They did not understand generally what are the acoustic conditions of musical and three D acoustic experience in a system/room/ears ...No the solution is not owning a multichannel system so good it could be !

Because the 5 aspects defining a better timbre perception are not related to the number of speakers at all ...But these aspects must be improved by the crosstalk controlling filters that then will improve the spatial qualities of sound then the naturalness of timbre perception as recorded initially ..

Acoustics rules audio gear  not the reverse ...

😊

If you want a true three dimensional sound stage and imaging from two channel stereo there is really only one game in town. BACCH SP.

We must not confuse an unnatural timbre sound ( from many speakers right out of the box, milhorn is right here  ) and the spatial information encoded in the recorded acoustics and destructed by crosstalk ...Choueiri BACCH filters is not multichannels , this is for sure another interesting debate ... But BACCH filters will also improve timbre perception and not only the spatial qualities, provided the right set of measures for ears and head are well done and provided that the room acoustics is optimal ....

Immersiveness or the way the listener envelopment (LV) is realized without being detrimental to the sound source width (ASW) is another very important characteristic of the sound experience as much as imaging and soundstage ...

Then redesigning speakers as milhorn did , or creating a multichannel system, so good it could be, is not enough ...I am with Dr. Choueiri articles about that ...

Timbre experience ask for more deep acoustical controls ....Choueri explain it well ...

I must specify that this is only my opinion ... I dont own the BACCH filters nor a multichannel system nor the Milhorn speakers ...

Well said and welcome ...

😊

There's no one answer fits all.  All the components in the chain as well as room acoustics, speaker placement etc. play a part.  It took me over 40 years of learning, trial and error to put together a room and a system that sounds "3D" with pretty much any recording, and cost played a small part, but was not the deciding factor.  Knowledge, experience and knowing what to do and look for is the key.

I do think we are in agreement about the roles of cables and acoustic treatments,

I think so....

I apologize myself , your post was clear enough, it is just that sometimes i like too much the discussion arena for the sake of discussing ... 😁😊

My deepest respect to you...

williewonka

2,776 posts

04-26-2022 at 09:47am

@mahgister - I have just read through my prevoius post and noticed that I had made reference to the words "you".and "your" in the paragraph...

I never contested that "differences" between cables cannot be heard if the room acoustic is not treated and well controlled, the difference can be heard in ANY room with ani system...

I tested difdfrent cables before my scoustic journey and i always hear a "difference" ...

But a diffrence between cables is not  the  specific improvement of  all acoustical cues of the system room...

What is an acoustical cue?

Timbre, dynamic., imaging, soundstage, LEV/ASW ratio, Bass clarity, all that is specifically and hugely differentiated and improved by acoustic treatment and acoustic mechanical control of the room... Each one of these cue is DIFFERENTIATED and IMPROVED not only lightly changed...

Cables cannot have either the impact of vibration mechanical control nor the same impact than the control over the decreasing of electrical noise floor of the house/room/system and not on the same level in my experience...

Cables make an impact but a small one compared to the three embeddings controls : mechanical,electrical and acoustical... For most people even a 1000 bucks cable is too much and way better invested in these other areas i just described...

Anyway you are not alone on this boat, most people cannot fathom or imagine it because they never experienced this the HUGE improvement created by the three embeddings controls...Especially acoustic....

I know i have read many audio threads and the same ignorance is evirywhere... I woud have never know it if i had not go through it by chance and by reading in acoustic...

Most people boast about gear brand name and cables brand name...

Why no system at any price cannot change my mind about this?

My 500 bucks system is not far behind ANY system at any price why?

Embeddings controls of the system/room...But my claim is unbelieveable anyway for those who dont have lived through the same...

I even cannot listen to any of my 8 headphones, they are infeirior on all acoustic count to this 500 bucks system...I begin my journey with headphones improvement...I will never listen an headphone again ... Do you imagine?

I do agree to your second point - however - in my years of designing and building cables I have found that the benefits of well designed cables can be heard even if the acoustice environment is lacking some acoustic treatment.

Great post....

I will only add a remark about cables...

Relatively good but not too much costly cables will do... Why?

Because most of all acoustical cues cannot be rendered audible in a badly treeated and controlled room ...

Then cables are important to gain the better information possible but there exist aminimal threshold of information quality without paying many thousand dollars for cables  then it is irrational and useless to pay more for cable  than to  room acoustic...

Dont throw too much money on cables, more on acoustic...

My cables are basic good relatively low cost one...Not cheap one at all, but low cost...I begin to listen ALL imaging, soundstaging, timbre naturalness etc AFTER acoustic treatment and control...A huge difference, i repeat : HUGE....

Too much money on cables and nothing to acoustic is a lost of money...

Every cable in a system will impact sound quality in some way.and it isn’t until you start using excellent cables that you will be able to hear very noticeable improvements in imaging.

In mix studio recording acoustical cues for depth are added artificially ...

i have a few DJ music like this...

I listen mostly jazz and classic and i always experienced depth level and soundstage filling the room at some degree accordingly to the recording process ...

If you dont perceive it your system/room is not optimized acoustically... The electrical noise floor level, and lack in vibrations mechanical control, are the causes, maybe the gear synergy also, but the problem most of the times is also a lack of acoustic room control... for sure speakers positions and location play a role but this is evident...The other cause are less evident and very powerful actors in sound perception  degradation...