@jmcgrogan2 > "High End" is simply a state of mind, just like "Happy", and there is no scientific correlation as to what physical properties constitute a state of mind.
Blindjim > thanks John. Sorry. I knew I should have said ‘genre’ – ‘ilk’ – category’ or the like instead of ‘club’, but felt people would get the point. My bad.
@teo_audio
Some years back I would have asked you just what have you been putting in your kool aid lately?
Now, I simply don’t want to know. In fact, I’m afraid to ask.
@geoffkait > Until you have even a little bit of experience with PWB stuff you really shouldn’t comment on what high end sound is.
Blindjim > uh, what and who are you talking about and to?
You did notice all of the words in the title at least, correct?
… HIGH END AUDIO
Nowhere did I intimate ‘sound’ as a particular criterion for defining what level of gear constitutes actual High end kit.. I felt to surface that aspect would be redundant.
@williewonka > Is it based on Price?, Performance? Component Matching? etc...
Blindjim > Thanks much. Build. Parts. Design. And more could dictate what a real high end component is, should one choose to use those as its defining credentials.
…and here’s the thing. Not everything made in audio can be considered High end merely by definition as the word ‘high’ dictates disparity, all by itself.
An iPhone is quite techy but certainly not High end Audio. Likewise, a Walkman or iPod doesn’t make the cut either.
Blue tooth formats, and compressed audio codecs such as MP3, WMA, are NOT high end audio contestants.
Plainly…. NOT everything is HIGH END.
Again, what makes up your mind in what is and what is not, High end audio, and or … where along the audio merchandise lineage does High end audio truly begin separating itself from the pack?
One would think from amongst the wisdom routinely shared around here this could be readily determined.
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@geoffkait > Bingo
Blindjim > PWB & experience?
one day I’m almost certain you will be the primary reason for my next heart attacxk. It will occur the exact moment you actually begin making good sense.
BTW TWWBMBTYWHPOOA.
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@ghosthouse > Sorry. No interest in "clubs".
Blindjim > Tanks.
If its gonna be about semantics….
what do you call this forum but just another name for a club?
You did join it. Ala membership.
You attend regularly.
You sign in with a secret password.
You’ve been in it a long time.
You abide by its rules and regulations.
You continue to return to it.
Its obviously a source of entertainment or interaction.you are committed to.
You regularly contribute.
I am curious now, how do you define ‘club’?
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randy-11 > alternatively, high end audio is when people think they get very high SQ from spending a lot of money for something
blindjim > thanks.
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Fascinating.
I would be willing to wager someone without any experience, but with a lot of money would do exceedingly well in this ‘club’ or ‘sport’ or past time’ or hobby’, or interest’, or concern’, . or endeavor’, or exercise’, or, well, use the term you like the most except High End Audio. No one here seems to be able to define that one very well at all.
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@syntax > We listen first with our eyes, then with our wallets. After taking both factors into consideration, it is then that we use our ears just to "verify" what our eyes and wallets have told us about a product.
Blindjim > how true. That do seem to be the process. Thanks.
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@Elizabeth > To invest so totally in the stereo.
As much as your car? twice you new car? As much as your HOUSE
Blindjim > I had a nice BMW 500 series in my living room at one time. A 90s version of the 500 series. the property was worth well, uh, more.
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@Mapman > High end means more expensive and exclusive compared to the rest, plain and simple.
Blindjim > sure seems quite relative and not indicative. A new preamp or DAC can run $1K to $60K or more. A PeachTree 300 runs $2K. an HT receiver costs as little as $400. Integrated amps range wildly from below a grand to near $30K in some cases.
Where then, is the bar separating High from Low?
If the answer is always to be a subjective appraisal based on first hand experiences of the goods themselves, the outcomes will be too vague for any particular distinction which would then firmly separate one from the other.
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@Willemj > what you can reproduce at home is only a postage stamp size version of it
Blindjim > stamp sized? Either take off the headphones, or move your speakers farther apart. Lol
I’ll say the recreated sound scape won’t be exact, but it can come quite close depending on the listening room dims and what was captured during the show.
@Willemj > You also realize that 'sound stage', 'spatial detail', 'warmth' or 'air' are not necessarily there in live concerts in the best acoustics.
Blindjim > not sure at all of what you’re thinking posting that last bit.
At a live event the sound stage, tenor, and dimension are in fact present. You only have to look. The players are where they are in relationship to the confines of the venue. They ain’t all standing behind each other or shoulder to shoulder in the middle of the stage. Each player and instrument occupy its own spot. If it is indeed an acoustic recital, separation gets very well defined. If everyone is in tune its usually an engaging outing.
How it is being recorded or how well, will then represent the artificial presentation your system will deliver.
The truth of the performance lives only at the performance. The recording offers merely a particular rendition or capture of it. What a home audio system does with that info thereafter should determine how proficient the home system is with being honest to the recording…. Not necessairily the actual venue’s performance.
If however the concert is all amplified its gonna gbe up to the mixing engineer and or producer to decide which product suits the recording best.
If it ain’t in the recording it sure ain’t gonna gbe in your systems ability to add something in or simply provide for it later.
This is why I’m so skeptical when reading articles on gear which relate not just the tonal attributes of a show or redcital, but where the walls are as well. Really. Were the walls stone, brick, or drywall? Better yet, was everyone wearing socks, or not? Were the chairs metal or wood? Cushioned?
Memories are not the exact pictorial evidence one should rely upon when recounting what is being displayed audibly. A mind can tent to bend or add vague artifacts into the writers memory and consequent testimony.
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I sure didn’t realize how difficult a question this was before now.
Applying a price range likely won’t simplify matters. Albeit as price increases the opportunity to experience the magic that exceptional audio’ electronics deliver becomes more commonplace even though the pieces responsible for recreating an engaging presentation often, are not at all common.
Maybe defining High end audio is best done from the top down than aiming directly at every piece of electronics hitting today’s market.
‘Cost No Object’, there should be little or no space for debate here on the it is or it is not.
C.N.O. items are easy to spot. They always have a comma in their prices and usually 2 or 3 digits forward of it.
Likewise, ‘Statement’ and ‘Signature’ lines of equipment should fit into the ‘high end’ enclave with few, if any, detractors. Once more these are readily observed as the tax per device regularly has five digits and the first number is a 3, 4, or higher.
Speakers are the most mystifying IMHO. Checking each models MSRP does very little to separate great performers from incredibgle reproducers. The moving tartget of speaker performance rests on more than the speaker system du jour. What is pushing them, and their resident prison. I’ll cast a vote for any pair exceeding the $9K plateau.
Regarding wires and accessories? Hoo boy! Here’s possibly the biggest bag of worms and most heated, controversial topic in audio. I’m not entering any vote there.
Across these considered areas, everything is open to deliberation. Add in the resplendent factor of complete synergy in arranging separates en masse, which can be much like hearding cats now and then, and the quandary of where does “high end audio’ begin or stop garners still greater mystery.
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@nonoise
it's stone age gear with high end sound, does it count?
Blindjim > > Thanks.
synergy always matters. Tweaking a rig is a part of system arranging that aids performance. What, where, which, aren’t as important. Its results which are the gains being sought.
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@trelja
geoffkait hits the nail right on the head, "high end sound is all about sound, not anything else. Not “solid engineering.” Not blind tests. Not “scientifically valid arguments.” Not cost. It’s about sound."
Blindjim > uh. Well, if you say so.
Although, don’t you think that statement is simply restating the ideal and not the solution?
Certainly it is about sound. That is how one will subjectively separate High End from Also Rans and less competent fare.
Albeit, I’m absolutely sure those items with better builds and part compliments. Better designs, greater quality assurance control, and so forth will be those who reside in the High End, and not in the lesser groups.
Saying it is all about sound is redundantly distracting. It defines nothing. Settles not one item.
Its like saying you’ll need a measuring cup for what ever recipe, even though the recipe demands you use a quarter cup of this, a half cup of that, and a third cup of something else. .
The question here is hwere physically or most often physically, is the line separating the best in production from the rest of the gear in production.
The quandary is Not concerned with ‘how’, will we figure it out.
A VTL entry level preamp costs around $2.5K or so. the Cheapest Ypsilon preamp made costs $37K.
I’ve not heard either one but I strongly suspect there is a significant disparity in performance between these preamps, but they are both subjectively termed ‘entry level preamps. As such, we can’t even use the term ‘entry level’ as a disqualifier.
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@ejr1953
If you ask 100 people that same question, probably 90 or more of them will say "Bose".
Blindjim > LOL. Agreed.
However, it seems the other 90% aren’t real sure, or perhaps even capable of determining where satisfactory stops, and outstanding begins.
@ejr1953
If a you own a system that provides you with a lot of enjoyment, to me, that's worth a lot more than someone else's judgement on the components.
Blindjimn > once more you’ll get no argument from me on such notions whatsoever.
I’m gonna state HIGH END begins in general, at or above the mid range of the vast majority of electronics makers production lines. If a maker has several lines of goods, which escalate performance then I’d point to their upper tier line of goods as TRUE High End items. Often, I’d suspect in these cases, the range of products immediately preceeding the top tier array are likely to be added into the conversation commensurately.
Absolutely there are tons of Also Rans out there which if one never enters the big room at the local audio dealership, will survive and thrive in blissful ignorance, as these items and a lack of experience enables sufficient degree of satisfaction.
For me it was or is, like jumping on a 500cc scooter and grabbing a fistful of throttle rapidly. Then lifting a leg onto a 1500cc fire breathing pocket rocket and once again, suddenly molesting the throttle with extreme prejudice.
These are two vastly different experiences. Although, until you’re sitting in the saddle of the second motorbike and yanking its fun handle vigorously ya will never know. You can and or will suspect its better, faster, scarier, but you won’t ever know until you give ‘er a go.
In that case the line HAS to be between the 500cc scooter and those above it possessing greater displacement, as the logical deduction from the very small sampling being utilized.
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@bdp24
Very nice. Thanks much.
@elizabeth
Bravo.
Thoughtful and poignant as usual.
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I feel price MUST be at least a part, if not all, of the conversation as makers of nearly everything on the planet set price according to build & performance, in their subjective assessments. This is of course, if they wish to be competitive in whatever budgetary range their item is being offered.
Naturally, audio is nearly always appraised by prospective buyers, subjectively, on performance or cost to performance,albeit such evaluations vary widely due to presentation being demonstrated from poor to optimumly setup and well matched systems and rooms.
I dare say we’ve all heard items being demonstrated we would not buy with someone else’ money, despite its possible lofty price tag and likely upper tier abilities, due to a poor setup or bad sounding room. Yet all too often expensive gear begs be hooked to other expensive stuff all the time. At least in our heads. And hearts. Doing otherwise is backing up and no one does that too often unless they are forced.
Regardless the associated implication and or sales tactics, demonstrating snonbery, elitism, arrogance or what other off putting social or professional attitude, there is a decided inherent disparity from entry level to ‘costno object” goods.
Where that dividing line resides is of course, the thrust of this topic.
The main issue I see with so called ‘high end’ gear is its asking price, not its subjective all too well worn, insinuated lable.
I can not, and will not fault anyone for asking whatever for anything. It is their prerogative to ask. It is mine to pay it. Deny paying it and leave. Or attempt to find some middle ground acceptable, hopefully, to both parties and consummate the bargain.
If I am lucky or unlucky enough to buy it, I’ll not be telling the uninitiated what I paid for it later on. That would be perpetuating the arrogance far too often associated with most anything beyond the line of entry level equipment. It would as well reinforce the idea of just how tenuous and frail is my sanity to others.
Check that. I will tell one person. My insurance agent. My banker will find out incidentally. A few days later still, I’ll be dismayed by the then nearly defunct associated bank account.
Consequently, once more, CNO, SOTA, Statement, and Signature lines of equipment are all long term residents of the so called High end community by default. Price not with standing.
Delving deeper, it appears sane enough to place everything above entry lines or levels of electronic gear subjectively speaking, into the high end as well and let ensuing arguments pro or con, wrest things into or out of it.
One can laud performance. Point squarely towards cost. Or try keeping a foot in each camp. No matter. Claiming something as high end or not, seems as subjective in a majority of cases as trying to describe degrees of warmth a particular loudspeaker exhibits.
If performance is the only measurement, show me a 2.5K preamp which readily out performs one costing 5K! additionally, an amp costing $8K which on all counts out runs one costing $35K.
As said, cost has a large role in this debate. As much if not more than plain and simple, good old outstanding recreation.
The major obstacle indemic to any individual appraisal is experience. Having seen only an elephant from India, then viewing one from Africa, its troublesome to determine which one is possibly best, though quite easy to pronounce each one different in at least one characteristic.
Beyond ‘experience’ lays the pit fall of personal taste or preferences. Setting aside one’s own partiality for how music is reproduced is a tuff enough task as a rule. We do at least attempt to set these devotions aside temporarily so we might gain enough satisfying insight for acquiring a part of the rig being auditioned, or the whole rig itself. each aforementioned task is a difficult endeavor and in fact may become an outright complicated or involved ordeal.
Therefore as the Devil’s Advocate, using MSRP as the sniper to target what is decidedly in the high end, I’ll offer the following items as likely parameters for being in or out of ‘high end’ audio:
Amps or floorstanding speakers costing $5K or more individually.
Stand mounted speakers priced at $3k and above.
subwoofers at $3K.
CDP at $2K and above.
dACs running above $4K.
streamer/Renderers at $2K or more.
TTs fully workingat $8K.
Digital cables or links at $200 and up.
Analog signal cables at $500 or more.
Speaker cables at $1K or above.
Power Cords at $500 and up.
Racks at $3K.
equipment or amp stands at $2K.
Iso platforms at $1K.
Power conditioners passive or active costing more than $1500.
HT gear is not listed here to keep the focus on audio.
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