2000-2500 USD budget for an integrated amplifier. Do amplifiers sound the same? :)

viridian: "Class D, what planet are you from? Getting paid by the word now, newbie?"

Hello viridian,

     Okay, okay.  Yes, we're all aware you're one of those hideous, large insect like Viridian things from the planet Virid and I'm the Earthling that's always making fun of you creepy crawlers for your sliminess, low IQs, lack of high quality audio knowledge and you're inability to grasp how to properly trash talk other universe inhabitants.  
     Now be a good slimy grasshopper, climb back into your intergalactic jalopy with the rollup windows, pop an 8-track into the player and head back to your bug infested dumpster of a planet. 

Love,
 Tim
XOX

     I agree with Erik, it seems like Egoq would benefit from gaining some more experience by trying several different integrated amps, of various amp types, with his Forte IIIs.  This will enable him to discover for himself whether amps sound different while also discovering which he prefers.  
     Many of us know that a tubed integrated will sound different than a solid state integrated and even different solid state integrated amps will sound different based on the types of amp stages (class A, AB and class D)  utilized.  We also know that the type of preamp stage (class A tube or solid state) utilized will influence the sound.  Lastly, we know that there's more than just the specific preamp and amp stage utilized in an integrated amp that determines its overall sound, it's the complete integrated amp design implementation as a whole that's important.
     My main point being that we know this through years of listening experience and accumulated knowledge that Egoq currently lacks.  While I think it's useful for this young newbie to rely on us older and more experienced members for advice and suggestions, it's also a very good time for him to begin developing his own knowledge and experience. 
     I'd suggest looking for a local dealer that will let you audition a few different integrated amps in your system and with your speakers before purchase.

Tim

     I agree a tube integrated would sound the most pleasing to most listeners, including Egoq, but he and his brother will be using his system for monitoring recordings and he stated "so it’d be good for us to have a system with the lowest distortion and flattest response possible". Meeting this goal seems to rule out the use of a tube integrated.
     From Egoq's description, I think class D amplification is likely his best option. From personal experience switching from good class AB amps(McCormack, Adcom and Aragon) to good class D amps(ClassD Audio, Emerald Physics and D-Sonic) in my separates system, I can definitely state with certainty that good class D amps are closer to the amplifier ideal of "a straight wire with gain" than tube or the good class AB amps I’ve previously used. The main characteristics of good class D amps are their very low distortion and very neutral sound, meaning nothing is added to or subtracted from the inputted signals except amplification to drive your speakers; like a straight wire with gain.
     I initially paired my beloved VTL 2.5L preamp with four expensive NOS (new old stock) Mullard tubes with my first class D amp in my system, a ClassD Audio SDS-440CS stereo amp. I was under the impression that the VTL/tubes were needed in my system to add the same warmth, bloom and dimensionality I enjoyed just like when using my VTL with my previous good class AB amps. This worked well with the influence of the VTL/tubes preamp being even more pronounced when paired with the new class D amp, probably due to its ability to just faithfully amplify the inputted signals from the VTL preamp without alteration.
     In an effort to streamline my combination music and ht system about a year later, I removed the VTL preamp and a Parasound AVC2500 5.1 surround sound processor from my system. I used my OPPO-105 Blu-ray player as the heart of this newly streamlined system, connecting all my amps directly to the OPPO’s analog outputs; I connected a newly purchased pair of D-Sonic M3-600-M class D mono-blocks via the OPPO’s XLR L+R stereo outputs, my ClassD Audio stereo amp via the OPPO’s RCA L+R rear surround outputs, a newly purchased Emerald Physics EP100.2EP stereo amp, run in bridged mono mode, via the OPPO’s RCA center channel output and my sub system still connected via the OPPO’s RCA sub output.
     I was expecting ht content, CDs and hi-res music files played back through the solid state OPPO as preamp along with all class D amps to lack the warmth, bloom and dimensionality formerly provided by the now removed VTL/tube preamp. I was pleasantry surprised to discover that most of my familiar mainly acoustic rock and jazz music still possessed the same warmth, bloom and dimensionality on good recordings. However, the "on good recordings" qualifier is important since, with a now obviously high quality but very neutral and revealing solid state preamp section of the OPPO paired with a high quality but very neutral and revealing pair of class D mono-block amps, the quality of all recordings suddenly became clearly obvious, too.
     Everything was now very transparent, accurate and detailed. The warmth, bloom and realistic dimensionality, that I thought my VTL preamp with NOS tubes was providing, was all still there but only if it existed on the music itself AND the recording was good enough to allow these qualities to be evident upon playback on a good, transparent, accurate and detailed system.
     Unfortunately, not all of my favorite and familiar music recordings survived the scrutiny of my currently very transparent system. I found that all of my Coldplay CDs suddenly sounded considerably worse on my home system but still sounded good on my less transparent car system. On the plus side, I can now not only clearly discern the quality of recordings but also any changes made to my system, including interconnect/ speaker cabling and power cords.
     Sorry it’s taken me this long to get to my main point but I thought it was important that you thoroughly understand why I think a class D integrated amp, with a solid state and not a tube preamp section, would most likely be the best option to provide the qualities you desire in your system. You can google ’class D integrated amps’, ’class D integrated amps under $2,500’ or other permutations to see your options.
     A lot of integrated amps now have features you may or not want such as built in streaming, dacs, phono hookup capability, room control etc. I also wanted to point out that going to separates may fit your needs better now or in the future since you’re able to upgrade any specific part of your system more easily because multiple parts are not combined in one box or component. Just something else to consider weighed against the cost of additional interconnects required.

Tim

auxinput: 
"The downside is that the Class D "sound" is not for everyone. I am particularly sensitive to the current Class D "lack of high frequency extension and air".   Also, many of the Class D offerings use switching power supply. The ATI AT52x and AT54x models are one of the only nCore offerings that have a full linear power supply"


Hello auxinput,

     I agree with you that the newer class D amps are extremely clean and clear sounding but I'm confused by what you mean when you state the downside is that the class D "sound" is not for everyone.
     Confused because class D's distinguishing characteristic is that it's so neutral, like a straight wire with gain, that it has no "sound" of its own.  If you don't like the "sound" when listening through a good class D amp, it just means you don't like the music it's playing.  How can it have a "sound" when it's just taking the inputted signals, amplifying the volume faithfully without adding or subtracting anything which is verified by extremely low distortion measurements and then passing the boosted signals along to the speakers? 
       It's true that many class D amps use switching power supplies but I don't consider this a negative. All the class D amps I own (D-Sonic, ClassD Audio and Emerald Physics) have full linear power supplies with large toroidal transformers but I've listened to a lot of good class D amps using switching mode power supplies(SMPS) that perform very well and I'm not aware of any amps using them having any issues. 
       Your statement that you're "particularly sensitive to the current Class D "lack of high frequency extension and air" also confuses me.  This is the first time I've heard of this affliction and I hope it's rare and not contagious.   It's definitely and sincerely a shame your affliction prevents you from enjoying the excellent high frequency extension and air that I and so many others enjoy on a daily basis from our good class D amps.  Your misfortune is a lesson to us all to never take our class D amps excellent full frequency range performance for granted, especially the airy and extended treble response.  
     I wish you only the best and hope you have a speedy and complete recovery.

Bless you,
  Tim

Hello auxinput,

     Yes, I was messing with you just enough to not be offensive but still make my point.  I am a big fan of class D but it's not a blind loyalty.  If there are shortcomings I'm very interested to know about them.
     The frustrating aspect for me is that most of the shortcomings of class D I hear from individuals are typically just anecdotal claims without any logical theories or relevant information to support their claims. If I don't discern their claimed class D deficiency, there's no evidence that others discern the same deficiency and not even a theory explaining why this deficiency exists is offered, then I'm unable to determine whether this is an actual class D deficiency or just a false claim by someone who is unreasonably biased against class D.  I suggest I have no incentive or logical reason to take such anecdotal claims seriously. 
  For example, your claim of class D lacking an extended and airy treble is to me an anecdotal claim that you made without any logical theory or relevant information given to support your claim. I don't detect this claimed deficiency in any of my class D amps I own or those I've listened to, you claim reviewers have noticed and mentioned this same deficiency but cite no references and offer no logical theory attempting to explain why this deficiency exists, then I have difficulty determining whether this is an actual class D deficiency or just a false claim.  I again suggest I have no incentive or logical reason to take the claim, that class D lacks an extended and airy treble response, seriously.  
     Put more simply, I'm always going to trust my own perceptions of what I hear or don't hear over anecdotal claims from others.  The truth is that if I don't perceive my class D amps as having a lack of an extended and airy treble, then by definition I only perceive an extended and airy treble.
     Of course, I realize it's a possibility that you and some others could be perceiving class D treble as not extended and airy while I and some others perceive class D treble as very extended and airy due to some currently unknown reasons that could be the result of the dynamics of class D technology itself or the differences between how individuals perceive class D reproduced sound or even some combination of the two.       If this is the case, then you're right that some individuals are just lucky.  Well, I think this is a diplomatic way to end our discussion.  Hopefully, meaningful discoveries will be made on this subject in the near future.

     In the meantime I agree with you that we should just buy what we love.

Tim

Hello auxinput,

     Arrogance?  That's me being polite and diplomatic.  I prefer to just call 'em like I see 'em, communicate in a direct and honest manner and try not to offend anyone in the process.  I think, if you reread my post, you'll discover I adhered to these general principles.
     However, I realize none of us have control over how others perceive our communications.  My intention was not to convey arrogance and it's unfortunate that you perceived this from my words that were consciously and carefully chosen in an effort not to offend you or anyone else.
     From a constructive thread standpoint, I think it's important that we both agree that class D could be a good option for the OP with the caution that some individuals, for currently unknown reasons, perceive deficiencies in the performance of class D amps that others do not perceive.


Thanks,
  Tim

     Well from what I've read about the Hegels, I think he made an excellent choice.
     Egoq, I hope you like and enjoy it for many years.

Tim