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Reference level playback

Hello to all, I have a theory to present that I feel is never fully addressed, it is in regard to the volume level that we listen at. This is in respect to vinyl only as I have no experience with CDs, I do not own a CD player and the one in my car is broken! That and the fact that I own about 10 CDs makes it impossible to have any regarded opinion in this matter.
I have seen in the past postings regarding listening levels, such as overall playback levels and playback levels for individual LPs. The two being distinguishable but not inseperatable. Recently someone said that it is a life time endeavor to find the correct playback levels as it changes from system to system, room to room and LP to LP. Also it has been posted that even crossover levels (and settings) should be used as freely as volume control settings. I disagree.
My experience has show that systems should be set at a reference level of 83db @ 1000hz and all LPs should be played back at this reference level. Set It and Forget It, is my motto.

I listen to all of my LPs at the same gain setting. I let the music and the engineer/producer/pressing dictate the playback level, and screw things up as they see fit! If you do not change the gain setting then you hear exactly what is on the record for evey record every time. I never change the volume control setting, it is set at 83db at 1000hz (plus or minus due to variations in my settings, room and references which does perhaps give you some leeway in any system, and may even be necessary). Some quiet non-bass heavy music plays at around mid 80s. Good rock plays at around the high 80s to low 90s. Music with big bass levels (orchestral and loud rock) plays around low to mid 90s with peaks to 100+. Emerson Lake and Palmers song Lucky Man hits 112db. Of course every record is completely different and that's the thrill and the reason. This is without changing the volume control setting. Want to listen to "quiet" music, put on some quiet music which was recorded appropriatly. Want some big bass Orb, well, it should play loudly. Want to hear the Monkees on Colegems, listen to it in your car.
I also do this for a number of other reasons:
1) All recordings now have the same vinyl recorded background noise, pops and clicks, noisy or quiet vinyl etc.. You hear each recording, pressing and condition of the LP for what it is. Turning down the volume on a noisy record does not make the record more quiet. Turning down the volume on a recording that was recorded too loudly does not help the sonics of this LP. Turning up the volume does not make a record more dynamic and it can only add more noise.
2) Bass levels are maintained through the Fletcher-Munson curve. Using the volume control has a huge effect on this. It makes it more difficult to balance bass levels when you are altering the Fletcher Munson curve. It is impossible to intergrate a sub when freq perception is changing due to overall gain settings for every recording or when listening at different levels according to your mood.
3) All recording engineers and producers have the same amount of dynamics available to themselves, did they make a dynamic, correct volume recording for the music that is recorded? I.e.: did they record an appropriately quiet section or style of music at an appropriate volume or did they compress the hell out of it and make a string quartet the same volume as a rock band? Its up to them to get this correct, not me. Lowering the volume does not help this LP. Is an Lp recorded too quietly and you want to hear it "rock out"? Increasing the volume does not help this if dynamics and overall gain is missing, plus "turning it up increases the noise levels in your system, and noises such as rumble and transient noise. This does not help this LP. How can you say record 1 is a good, quiet recording when played back at a lower gain setting comparing it to either itself or record 2 when played at a much higher setting? Did the pressing use good quiet vinyl? Is the pressing free of rumble and distortion? Changing gain setting dose not help any defiencies, they do not go away because you changed the volume level. Lets face it there are a lot of poor recordings, don't we really want to know which are good and which are bad? This is the way to find them.
4) If you "limit" yourself to one gain setting you will find that it is easier to set crossover settings, speaker placement and sub to main settings. You do this by getting the most out of your settings, not by pumping up or decreasing as is seen fit for that recording. again this shows the recording for what it is.
5) All records are played repeatadly at the same level so they always sound the same. From individual records played at different levels which would mess with the F-M curve and room interactions to all LPs which give some a more quiet background if played at a lower level to others where they become noisy cranked to 10!
6) Its an easily obtainable goal, who can't play at 83db at 1000hz? Therefore all of the other freq will be the same, you then only need your subs to be able to play 50hz and 20hz at 83db. Dont forget the required 20db dynamics! Why buy oversized amps and more gain than you need when all you are trying to do is get 83db at all freq?
7) We would all be listening at this level to make it easier to asses each others system at the same volume level.
8) This is the level that a good recording engineer should strive for. It gives him a natural level 83db with the ability to utilise 20db+ dynamics.
9) You only have to buy the size amp you need.
10) You only need things to be so quiet, is your system quiet at this level? Who cares if it is noisy turned up to 10, you are not listening there anyway.
11) If listening to an LP and the turntable has resonances or rumble or the amp has a low freq aberration changing the reference playback level will alter this underlying feel, sound, noise and this can not be correct-to evaluate at diff levels. This also pertains to number 1, regarding LP noise levels, whether condition or anomalies such as LP recorded hum or vinyl rumble.

In summary there are two main reasons for this and the others come along for the ride. For your system, you only have to obtain a "flat" freq response from 20-20K @ 83db plus the ability for dynamics, a not so easily obtainable goal as it may first appear but at least a direction to go. This does not mean there is there is no "fiddling to be done". If your system is not capable of this setting tune your system to a more easily obtainable level such as 80db or 77db or less and get as full range as possible within your systems capability.
Secondly no record has an advantage due to increased or decreased volume setting, you hear the record for what it is, which is one of my main goals in listening.
I am not the only one to address this issue as you can research this on the net. I feel that that this is an important issue which is rarely ever discussed.
Bob
acoustat6
acoustat6 OP
357 posts
 
Hi Wgh, Yes I thought about that, and I do have mixed feelings and thoughts on this. I believe, though, that I have achieved the correct approach on this also. Assuming that all LPs have a baseline noise and feel (that completeness that we listen for) to the vinyl sound, this is maintained. Also that, again the correctly balanced LPs are the ones that shine through. I think that the Fletcher Munson curve is maintained through your systems overall sound balance and its interface with the room that is of much more importance in the reproduction of vinyl playback, rather than the volume of the recording which is still maintaining the reference level even if it was not recorded at or pressed at the correct level. I think this is why LPs of different play back levels can still sound cohesive. So the systems gain levels and LPs underlying sound and its ability to reproduce the F-M curve is most important.
Bob
piedpiper
753 posts
 
"correct" for what? By using that word, you seem to be assuming that the your priorities, which you have expounded on at length, are the "correct" ones. I use my system to recreate a musical experience. You seem to use yours to optimize technical parameters that, in the end, are only optimal for certain recordings which you then identify as "correct". As a recording engineer, I know for a fact that dynamic range is a choice that I typically exercise differently than the average pop engineer. I fully intend for the listener to adjust accordingly, as I do. Athough you have discussed some interesting points, your theory as intended doesn't apply to me or seemigly anyone else here. Your insistance on comparing yourself to Galileo, yet to proved "correct" is narrow minded and down right offensive. By all means discuss your findings, but if you want to be listened to, please drop the self righteous, circular logic. If you believe what you said above that this won't work for everyone then drop the "c" word and don't posture yourself as waiting to be proved right.
inpepinnovations
134 posts
 
For the last 40 yrs I have marked my LPs with the optimum listening indications for my pre-amp to give 90db peaks (almost exclusively classical music) at my listening position. The settings on the pre-amp vary greatly in about a 10db range from disc to disc to get the same peak levels. When I exchange cartridge, I simply run a test record to calibrate it against the previous cartridge and adjust the pre-amp setting to compensate, i.e., if the gain is 5 db less, then I add 5db more gain at the pre-amp to again have 90db on the peaks of my LPs.
Salut, Bob P
wgh
6 posts
 
But your records and your ears do not know where the volume knob is set. In an extreme example, if a record is recorded at 20dB, on your system it would play back very quietly and you might comment that this recording is bass shy when actually might not be true. Turning up the volume would prove you wrong and the resulting sound would then have the correct F-M curve, though you would have more surface noise, c'est la vie.

Another example are the Stereophile Test Records Intermezzo and Poem. I believe these were recorded at an low average volume to leave room for the dynamics. Intermezzo should reach, at the most, 96dB at your listening seat at the very loudest passages (from the liner notes). If the loudness is different with your system, then it is wrong... but it may be spot on, you should let us know. I have a feeling John Atkinson, Kavi Alexander, and Tim de Paravicini knew what they were doing.

Listening is more than measuring, if it was, we would all have Radio Shack receivers that measure perfectly and this discussion would be about dogs, women, and snow mobiles. Music is a language with excitement, joy and sadness. What you have done is strip all emotion from the language and turn it into a science project.
acoustat6 OP
357 posts
 
Hi Piedpiper, Listen, I presented an idea or theory as I first called it for discussion. I said I was sorry for my reference to some famous people, and to make it more clear, let me say that I am in no way shape or form like great men of the past, except for the fact that I felt as I was being attacked as a fool as they were and that was my reference. That little faux pas got out of hand and I am sorry for it. Perhaps I should have said I felt as if I were at a murder trial and the jury had allready made its mind up that I was guilty before I entered the court room. I should not have said that I was was just waiting to be proved correct, I assure you it was in jest and as we know sometimes things are taken wrong or said in haste or whatever.
I am not a scientist, a journalist, nor am I mentally deranged. I am not asking anyone to wait for a comet with a glass of Cool Aid in hand. Nor was I asking you to spend money on my idea or theory as others do with at least as little validity for improvement of playback.I told you my ideas and I think some valid reasons for it. I also told you my "audiophile" goals in evaluating LPs. Wheather it is "correct" or not for you, is up to you. I do not feel that I am the one being narrow minded, as I am the one who presented the "idea". Perhaps those that gave it no second thought are the ones who are "narrow minded"?
I am sure you are a good recording engineer, and do what you can to make a good recording and I applaud you for that. But there is no denying that there are some pretty poor recordings, pressings and abused LPs out there and that this is "my way" of approaching that. I also mentioned my listening habits which most people take exception to. I also tried to explain, perhaps not very well, how this helps me set up my system. If I appeared to come off too strong and self righteous this is not my personality nor my intent.
Thank you for agreeing that some of my points are perhaps valid.
I think my next thread will be, what is the best cable for $5,000? He said with a hint of comic sarcasam LOL:)
Bob
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