Has anyone been able to define well or measure differences between vinyl and digital?

@johnread57 ,

I did not present an opinion. I presented verifiable, researched, well understood, mathematical facts. Facts not disputed by those with the deepest understanding of the underlying math, and those able to adapt the math to practical implementation.

Below is an opinion. It misinterprets personal opinion, narrow market popularity, and different to "something". That something is only described in easily falsified claims, falsified with math, not an appeal to narrow market popularity.

Perhaps @Fair, can enlighten with at least 2 or 3 of these research papers he claims are hard to find? A new paradigm with 3 decades of research that legitimately calls into question all current signal processing and hearing knowledge should have many available sources to reference.

I see it differently. The old paradigm is falsified by phenomena for which it gives invalid predictions. For instance, according to the old paradigm, LPs shall be long gone, the way of cassette tape recorders and VCR video tapes. Yet LPs persisted, and the classic paradigm produces no convincing explanation as to why.

@dsnyder0cnn

you are correct, I thought of that afterwards.

I should have said "from the finished product"

I can also add, the whole vinyl pressing process doesn't fix, alter, improve, up or down sample the grooves

@johnread57

@thespeakerdude

I did not present an opinion. I presented verifiable, researched, well understood, mathematical facts. Facts not disputed by those with the deepest understanding of the underlying math, and those able to adapt the math to practical implementation.

 

Below is an opinion. It misinterprets personal opinion, narrow market popularity, and different to "something". That something is only described in easily falsified claims, falsified with math, not an appeal to narrow market popularity.

Perhaps @Fair, can enlighten with at least 2 or 3 of these research papers he claims are hard to find? A new paradigm with 3 decades of research that legitimately calls into question all current signal processing and hearing knowledge should have many available sources to reference.

>>> I see it differently. The old paradigm is falsified by phenomena

>>> for which it gives invalid predictions.

>>> For instance, according to the old paradigm,

>>> LPs shall be long gone, the way of cassette tape recorders

>>> and VCR video tapes. Yet LPs persisted,

>>> and the classic paradigm produces no convincing explanation

>>> as to why.

Very well. This 2016 review  A Meta-Analysis of High Resolution Audio Perceptual Evaluation contains references to

"18 published experiments for which sufficient data could be obtained ... providing a meta-analysis involving over 400 participants in over 12,500 trials"

Conclusion is:

"Results showed a small but statistically significant ability of test subjects to discriminate high resolution content, and this effect increased dramatically when test subjects received extensive training."

Pair of charts below illustrates my statement about the growing LPs popularity and vanishing CDs purchases. In a wider context: digital streaming appears to be decimating CD sales, yet LPs have not been affected by that (or maybe even helped?).

CD sales in the US

LP sales in the US

@johnread57

@Fair can you summarize on this issue?

Will do, referring to questions in the original post.

It’s obvious right? They sound different, and I’m sure they measure differently.

Yes and yes.

Well we know the dynamic range of cd’s is larger than vinyl.

This is debatable.

But do we have an agreed description or agreed measurements of the differences between vinyl and digital?

No. Because there are multiple - at least two - paradigms, defining certain important characteristics like dynamic range differently.

I know this is a hot topic so I am asking not for trouble but for well reasoned and detailed replies, if possible. And courtesy among us. Please.

Tried my best to abide.

I’ve always wondered why vinyl sounds more open, airy and transparent in the mid range. And of cd’s and most digital sounds quieter and yet lifeless than compared with vinyl. YMMV of course, I am looking for the reasons, and appreciation of one another’s experience.

In the first paradigm, CD is superior in sound quality to LP. Digitizing CDs and delivering their content via online streaming should have killed off LPs.

In the second paradigm theoretical framework, LP occupies a middle ground between CD and such perceptually transparent digital formats as PCM 192/24 and DSD128.

Correspondingly, the second paradigm maintains that CDs, physical or digitized, are not capable of superseding LPs. But perceptually transparent digital formats likely will.

I’ve always wondered why vinyl sounds more open, airy and transparent in the mid range. And of cd’s and most digital sounds quieter and yet lifeless than compared with vinyl.

Most studios record fully digital nowadays. When streamed lossless via Tidal or Qubuz you get this source straight to your DAC. Assuming it’s a capable DAC you get the best representation possible.

To make a vinyl, there are countless extra steps:

- audio compression and RIAA to limit the low frequency groove amplitude.

- mechanical process of cutting the master disk

- chemical / mechanical process of pressing a disk

- wear and tear of the (master) disk

- added wow and flutter of the turntable

- mechanical / electrical process of pick up element

- Reverse RIAA correction and pre amplification of pick up voltage

And now all of a sudden it sounds more open, airy, and transparent?