Talk but not walk?


Hi Guys

This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?

I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?

You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?

I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?

thanks, be polite

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net


128x128michaelgreenaudio
prof

jf47t,

1. If you are honest.

And

2. If the techniques you and MG espouse are sound.....

>>>>Oh, please. I know for a fact they are honest, trustworthy, clean, brave and reverent. Go back and read Zen and the Art of Debunkery some more.

When did you stop beating your wife?

jf47t,


I have no friends here, just for the record, and it is great that people went to Tuneland and enjoy it. Maybe some other threads there are more into "walking", but that one with pictures is not. In fact, posts there are very strange, to say the least. Even approaching it with very open mind, it does read like nothing more than self-praising form of poetry. People have different styles of writing and that is fine, but content is missing on that thread. Pictures are valuable, though, despite them being only teasers.


To clarify, your inaccurate rewrite of my sentence...

glupson says Please Please don’t visit TuneLand and then he asks a direct question of TuneLand LOL


has changed the meaning of what I wrote and which was...

Please do not direct people from here to Tuneland

Nice try, but still a feeble attempt to tune it your way.

I did go to Tuneland and I will probably observe it some more. I will also recommend it to other people I know who may find it interesting, even if it may be just for their amusement. What I meant was that you do not advertise it that strongly to the people on this thread as, no matter how hard you try to explain that some have migrated there, the posters here seem to be much more exact and their presence on Tuneland would dilute Tuneland itself. In short, just as what I recommended to you after your initial posts about Michael Green, you may not want to work too hard. It becomes grotesque. You have improved since then and you might have noticed that nobody is ridiculing your way of talking about Michael anymore. I understand that public relations may not be your strongest quality so I thought I might try to help. Take it or leave it. Thank you will suffice.


As far as my questions about things I saw on Tuneland go, they were a pure curiosity as it all seems way out of ordinary. They may not have an answer (orange vs. white outlet, wires directly stuck in the outlet, modifications to the receiver, maybe something else that I forgot), but they remain questions.


If you look at two or three of geoffkait's posts above, he did bring something valuable to this thread. We may agree or disagree with it in the end, but there are statements that include how, why, what, etc. If anyone responds to them with contra-argument, it will be called a discussion. LOL-ing brings nothing but a shrug of the shoulders aimed at the LOL-er..


Regards to the dated Pioneer receiver:

MG took his time and converted this amp into a variable music machine that now can easily rival the very best of the best.

@jf47t,

Please provide a list of what equipment you believe to be the best of the best.


While at Axpona (this year) I listened to a pair of mono-blocks in two totally different environments designed by Rick Schultz of High Fidelity Cables and assembled by Peter Israelson. Peter is a member of Star Sound and has walked in your shoes prior to me. He is one of the most gifted and knowledgeable people I met in HEA and just think, MG “left him go” too ⌣.

This amplifier design uses Magnetic Conduction Technology where magnets and nickel tubing are used to pass signal and not copper wire (MCT is protected by US patents). These two gents are very good friends of mine as we share technologies and knowledge for the advancement of sound and audio. Bias aside, I consider this amplifier design a must hear and a strong contender for that ‘best of the best’ from my highly opinionated and extremely limited list of finest sounding electronics.


Sorry to state j47t, but the materials used to build the Pioneer chassis and chassis mass disqualifies the capability of holding a proverbial sonic candle in comparison to this design. Obviously these amplifiers are expensive to own. In fact, they enter the MG world where not only is HEA dead but so are large chassis electronics - dead. There were three pair sold since their debut in January of this year which puts MG’s claims to question.

If the reports and observations provided by gulpson concerning the Pioneer power conductors sticking in the AC outlet without a surrounding casing are correct and the public is permitted into the building; makes for a great case in search of a building inspector, fire marshal and if there is ever an accident of any kind, a good attorney. Cancels the insurance policy too!

There is the removing of the chassis cover again and we are awaiting an answer as to how that works in relationship with tuning techniques as previously requested?


You create a lot of wind… but zero answers to any questions on technical and/or mechanical function.

Robert



@geoffkait

>>>>So, let me get this straight. You guys apparently have a mission statement


Yes, in a nutshell... 

Mission and Vision:

To create and establish a newfound science from understanding the detrimental effects caused by vibration ultimately affecting the operational performance of any equipment utilizing or manipulating power through its operation. Establishing a higher level of product operational efficiency while reducing power consumption.


and standard operating procedure to let the vibrations flow freely, right? And this mission statement and SOP obviously precludes the use of vibration isolation, right?

Yes and yes,


In fact, if I can be so bold, you guys actually believe that vibration isolation is not (rpt not) possible, correct me if I’m wrong.

Yes,

“True isolation” can never be achieved in real world applications. In audio, there are various techniques that alter sound through isolation principles however “true” isolation can never be achieved (physics, laws of gravity and motion and Coulomb’s law) in 'real world applications'.


So, are you guys claiming a scientific conspiracy of massive proportions that the project to detect and observe gravity waves LIGO uses a complex and comprehensive system of vibration isolation (they say is) required to isolate and stabilize the optics and other critical parts of the experiment from extremely low frequency vibration?

No.

We spent little time analyzing LIGO as we are in the music, sound and audio industries where this multimillion dollar experiment has no bearing on our business and - no sound.

However, even LIGO requires mechanical grounding supports for function as a non-isolation resonance energy transfer support system is used to champion their isolation techniques in a 'real world application'.


Everyone and his brother knows shape is an important aspect of isolation and energy control. That is why the Super DH (Diamond Hardness) Cone is superior in performance to the Jumbo DH cone which is the same basic size but slightly different shape. We’ve known that for more than 20 years, probably more than 25 years.

First, we are not claiming to be the originator of variable shapes.

Our research is taking us towards what is “not” totally understood regarding shapes related to vibration, interfering energy, resonance transfer and product function.

Secondly, hardness has very little to do with our technology where damping factors and mass related to material science combined with mechanical grounding techniques are more the focus.


My question for you is; what does hardness have to do with attack, sustain and decay qualities related to sound reproduction equipment or musical instruments?


We find that the "harder is better" approach to materials related to musical applications has drawbacks. The harder materials generally elevates pitch and narrows frequency range when applied to sound reproduction equipment, musical instruments and fails miserably when combined with a Sistrum geometry.

Robert



audiopoint
My question for you is; what does hardness have to do with attack, sustain and decay qualities related to sound reproduction equipment or musical instruments?

>>>>Let me answer with a question. Why are the very hardest cones have the best performance and the softer cones like brass and carbon fiber sound the worst?

Pop quiz: Why is seismic vibration much more important for SQ than acoustic vibration or induced vibration? Especially for vinyl playback.

Extra credit: Why is the material of the top plate of a vibration isolation stand relatively immaterial, to use a word?

When you can answer those questions you will answer your own question.