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Ortofon Red/Pro-ject Carbon Debut combination; rolled off hi-frequencies. Solutions?

Hi there.

I just bought a Project Carbon Debut SB with a factory equipped Ortofon Red. After 30 hours break-in the mids are fine (smooth, rich and full), bass is a little fat but tolerable but the highs, as I expected were rolled off; but more than I expected and not acceptable to me. Obviously, there will be compromises in a "bargain" turntable but mechanically and sonically I think it's good basic platform to start with.
 
The TT is playing back through the inboard phono stage of my Musical Fidelity A3.2 integrated. I've swapped interconnects, starting with Audioquest Diamondback (nice mids, darker top end) and Wireworld Equinox 6's (brighter top but not much inprovement in air, and surprisingly a bit grainy and obscure in the mids).

I'm thinking my 1st step is upgrading the cartridge to either the Ortofon Blue, Shelter 201 of the new Audio Technica VM540ML; the replacement for the old AT400ML which was a bit too bright but otherwise highly musical and faithful in reproduction (I had one in my Music Hall MMF5.1) but there aren't any reviews of it to be found on the web or in hi-fi mags.

I am on a budget and before I start throwing hundreds of bucks around and burning months of experimentation on swapping out cables, outboard phono stages and cartridges I thought I'd throw this subject open to discussion to my brothers of the cloth who have the same high fidelity point of view as I.

Any recommendations or opinions are welcome. 


morbius2130aol
chakster's avatar
chakster
6,144 posts
 
Your Ortofon 2M Red is the problem! It’s mediocre cartridge, what else do you expect on such cheap turntable? One of my friend has replaced his 2M (on the same turntable) with Stanton 881 MKIIs and he never looked back since that day.

Find yourself a better MM cartridge and stay away from the modern MM cartridges, buy the best MM from the 80s or 70s. Then you will undergstand why they are so good and why it was a choice for disc mastering engineers over the years. You will not find anything better than AT-ML170 VM OFC or OCC and btw Stanton 881 MKIIs is also great, read this article first.

Another great high compliance Audio-Technica cartridge is AT20SLa (it’s my link, but there you can read some info i just don’t want to copy paste here).

What else you can do to improve the sound quality ?
Change load resistors inside your phono stage to 100k Ohms (Vishay Naked Foil resistors available on ebay from texas components - this is the nanufacturer). You will get a better top end compared to 47k Ohm.

You can not make a mediocre cartridge sounds good by changing the cables or mat or anything, except the cartridge itself if you really looking for something better. Everything starts from the cartridge.

But load resistance is important for MM. 
reubent
6,939 posts
 
morbius,

I own the  Pro-Ject Debut Carbon Esprit SB that shipped with the Ortofon 2M Red. Is this the table and cartridge you have?

I thought the table sounded pretty good right out of the box. I did notice a little less sparkle in the treble than I was expecting and I had hoped that break-in of the cartridge/stylus suspension would help it open up a bit. It did open up a bit after a few weeks of consistent play, however I still felt it should have a bit more sparkle in the treble. I starting trying a few things to see if I could get it to open up a bit more. Here's what I did......

Removed the felt mat - sounds more dynamic without the mat.

Set-up alignment - I went through a complete alignment of the cartridge. The factory alignment was off IMHO.

Cable - I replace the stock interconnect cable with an Audio Sensibility Impact SE phono cable. Immediately better.....

Replaced the 2M Red Stylus with a 2M Blue Stylus (the cartridge body is the same, so they are interchangeable). The blue is better across the board, including the treble. However, my cartridge moved when I installed the stylus and I need to go back through the alignment again.

That's my Pro-Ject Debut Carbon Esprit SB story. I'm pretty happy with the table at this point. I use it nearly daily and I enjoy the sound. I have a much more expensive digital rig, and I prefer the sound of the TT. It's just a more organic and engaging sound to me. With the replacement phone cable and stylus, I have about $900 new retail in the setup. Is it the best $900 combo setup you can buy? I have no idea. I would like to try other similarly priced setups, but I'm happy with my setup and not willing to spend any money searching for something different.


 
morbius2130aol OP
16 posts
 
Thanks for your valued input, guys. Let me further detail my system setup...

My equipment is installed in a Soundesign metal rack on spikes. The turntable sits on the top of the rack on a 25 lb. slab of granite. I don't use a mat, the records are played resting directly on the acrylic platter. The stock Pro-ject feet are used. The both the Audioquest and Wireworld IC's used are 1meter in length. The capacitance of the inboard phono stage of the A3.2 is non adjustable and fixed at 47k Ohms.

Based on the feedback so far I'm in agreement with most everthing I've heard from the group. My original thought was to upgrade the cartridge (or stylus) first then consider an outboard phono stage with adjustable capacitance. First, I'll be recalibrating the alignment of the cartridge this afternoon, just to be sure.

Anymore input is appreciated. Thanks again.
morbius
invictus005
597 posts
 
2M Red is an excellent entry level cartridge. I had several of them and they did not lack detail. When I hear "lack of detail" the first thing that comes to mind is VTA.

Make sure your VTA is set correctly. With tracking force set at 1.8g (and verified with a gauge), set the arm down on an average thickness record and make sure the tonearm tube is parallel to the record's surface.

Sometimes this may may be hard to see. You can take cardstock paper, slightly narrower than the white line drawn in the center of your arm tube. Draw thin lines spread 1mm apart using a sharp pencil and ruller. Then gently and flatly place this piece of paper on the record's surface and prop it against the tonearm. 

Parallel should give you the best detail and bass and have an SRA of 90-92 degrees. Tonearm's tail too far down will result in muddy thick sound. Tail too far up can sound bright and sibilant. 

I don't believe your turntable has an easy VTA adjustment, so you'll have to get creative with shims, etc. 
rar1's avatar
rar1
1,748 posts
 
I started out with the Pro-ject Debut Carbon and Ortofon Red.  It was ok, but not great.

Things to do -

1.  replace the original mat with a rubber mat.  I use the ones from the Technics 1200 series available from KAB USA
2.  change out the stylus to the one from the Ortofon blue
3.  change cartridges altogether.  The Shelter 201 is excellent. 

The pre-amp from the MF 3.2 is good.  No need to change.

This will make things appreciably better.  

Unfortunately, if you really get into records, you will find yourself upgrading the TT.   

Rich

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