Capellaudio - looking closer at your post, it sounds like you are big into home theater. In this case the Emotiva amp may be ok. I have not owned Emotiva (with the exception of a VERY brief stint with the pre-amp), but from what I have heard at 2 Axpona shows, it is great for home theater... but I was not that impressed for music even with their own speakers. After listening to high quality for years, it just sounded less refined and natural to me and at times sibilant. This year's Emotiva set up was better, but not enough to make me walk out the room saying "I have to have that."
Why don't you wait a week for me to receive my Pendragons. I have a Marsh A400S (200w solid state) that I am going to break them in with... and I will have a report on how they sound with a powerful ss amp. I also believe the Marsh is a cut above in quality compared to Emotiva and can be had for the same price on the Gon. |
Hi there Capellaudio. The speakers you mentioned are all good (though I haven't heard the Golden Ear speakers). But they seem to get rave reviews. The issue is they are vastly different than the Tektons. It depends on what you want. First off, the Bryston and the other ss amps you mentioned are not the "ideal" mate for the tektons. You just don't need to pay for all of that power - you can get control over the woofers with much less! You would be better off with tubes or lower power amps (class D or just low powered class A maybe). The Tekton sound is effortless and very "live" sounding, and will easily handle any type of music. The other speakers mentioned are of the conventional variety... not a bad thing, but more of the opportunity to spend $ on power.
Allot of this depends on the size of your room. Do you have room for the Pendragons? If it is going to mainly be a video/entertainment and some music system, then I would go with all M-LORE speakers and run a sub with it. From what Eric is telling me, the M-lore is the real sleeper in the lineup, and from the recent review, it seems like it is!
Eric can also build a sub and a center channel (he is working on a sub now I believe). Get a nice Primaluna or Quicksilver 25+ watt amp for stereo, and use a decent home theater receiver for the entertainment stuff, and you are done. No reason in my mind to spend big $ on home theater processors, etc... unless of course you are completely into that. But in my experience, higher end gear is only necessary for music critical listening... that's just my opinion.
The other speakers mentioned... good but I prefer the Tektons. They can do allot more with allot less power... and they get me closer to the real live thing in comparison to conventional.. again that's just my preference. |
Great to hear this! It also coud have been a little bit of break in that was needed. It took my first pair 6-8 weeks to fully break in.
Now we have 2 testimonials of one of the best speakers out there! |
My Pendragons arrived today in a beautiful automotive gloss white finish. They look spectacular! Let me know if you want to see a picture. |
Capellaudio - re: "How does the pendagons compare to the big boys b&w ,Martin logan,kef,Polk"..
There is not enough room here to answer your question, so we would have to take it off line. Feel free to email to discuss. But I will just repeat what I just recently told a friend... and that is, I would go as far to say that if driven by good electronics, the Pendragon could run with much more expensive speakers. They make these $9K Graybeards I had with all classic series Scan-Speak drivers sound like a toy. The Pendragon is closest I have ever been to live musicÂ…
The fact is, there is a huge dichotomy in high end audio that believes that big expensive conventional speakers are it for high end, but this technology surpasses conventional logic IMO and from what I am hearing. The sound is extremely open and effortless, reminiscent of a planar or electrostatic, yet has all the benefits of a moving coil/dynamic loudspeaker in the sense that it plays full range with no compression. As long as you have the room and can place the speakers at least 8ft a part, this system is something special... which is why I went back to them ... representing the first time I have done that.
I am breaking mine in now with my 200w Marsh A400S amp... and to my surprise, the sound is AWESOME!!! I tried an Adcom with my last pair and did not like it, but this combo is a beautiful match. After a while I put my 12w Xindak class A tube amp in and see what that does. |
Boniccie - the Maggie sound is extremely detailed and transparent. They are fun to listen to, but vastly different. They are a wall of sound opposed to the 3-dimentional and deep soundstage that the Lore throws with a good tube amp. That combo you have has to be awesome. Hopefully you are able to bring the Lores out into the room a little to get the depth effect. I also think the Lores sound more realistic in terms of a "lively", or effortless presentation.
I have my Pendragons dialed in just right now... I figured out the perfect set up in my room, and I would take these over a pair of Maggie 3.6's any day. There is no compression with the music whatsoever, and now that I have them set right... imaging is spot on. Missing nothing with them... and I am listening with a 200w Marsh A400S right now. never thought solid state would work so well with the Tektons... |
I am about 1-1.5ft from the left side wall, but then I have quite a bit more distance to the right due to the room layout... and 28.5" off the back wall (from the back of the speaker). I could flip the setup in the room but then it means I have window on the back wall... I'd rather avoid that. |
Tekton Pendragon update: this is for the "Lore-based" Pendragon update... I have about 10 days of almost straight playing time on them now. I have realized quite a difference now that they are spread out a bit... they like at least 7.5ft part and the more the better. With that set up, imaging is spot on and the soundstage wide with great depth. These speakers are just tremendous. They are so much more "convincing" than the $9K Greybeards were. The other day I was listening to a live recorded Hillsong cd track and it pressurized my entire room. Not sure what is more convincing than that. But on another note, they sound great at any volume, and always very full. There is no weakness to this speaker, other than for some it is going to be too big. I won't be getting rid of these unless my room shrinks. Finally there..
I'll be hooking up my 12w Xindak this weekend. I listened to it briefly the other day, and compared to the powerful ss Marsh, the sound is sweeter and with greater depth / holographic effect. It is also a bit more musical and with a nicer "tone" with the tube amp. But it obviously won't play as loud and effortless as it does with the Marsh. It also seems to have extremely powerful lower bass with the Marsh simply because there is just so much power on tap - this is a 4ohm speaker and the Marsh puts out 350w into 4ohms... WHAT an amazing experience on a 98db speaker! Talk about dynamics and a complete lack of compression... WOW! |
It is a special Lore-based model for a great price... should be interesting! |
It is not the Pendragon tweeter. I have the dragon and it has SB Acoustics Ring Radiator tweeters. The tweeter in the Oriel is a high efficiency soft dome Vifa tweeter. Knowing Eric it is likely very detailed and smooth. It looks similar to what is in the mini-Lore but not certain it is.
The Oriel looks to be like a mini-lore on steroids - since it is 98db and be driven with very low watts. I would also wonder if it has a slightly better bottom end then Lore, since the Eminence driver he selected does not have a whizzer and therefore is not going to play as high in frequency... with that trade off it may roll off differently on the low end??
I know the jump from the lore to pendragon in bass is gigantic... and this woofer seems closer to what I have in the Pens. I am betting this Oriel is equal to Lore but with different trade offs. |
Socrates7 - I spoke to Eric about this, and it is not a replacement for the Lore. It is simply a new model that is set to bridge the gap between Mini Lore and Lore. He had received many requests about a less expensive, full size Lore model. So I wouldn't expect the Lore to ever sell under a grand again unless it is B stock. Truth be told, all of these are going to be competition killers in at the price.
I am listening to my pendragons now fully broken in and they are simply the best speaker I have ever heard, especially with the live recordings (I know I have said this allot). The upgraditis has completely been squashed, though I owe that more to my walk with the Lord, but still... the Pens are a big time speaker no doubt. Expect great things from Eric the guy was the first in about 15 speakers I had to finally satisfy ... I can now only ask... where am I to go from here ?? Surely spending more wouldn't make any sense at all.
I say buy the one you can afford and don't look back... |
I have a larger spike for Pendragons (they come with taller spikes). Call him and I am sure he'll take care of you. |
He said it is absolutely "stupid good" for the money, but Lore is still Supreme. However, as a guy that moved from the $1K Lore to $2,500 Pendragon, I would say that these two models are going to be extremely close... based on the fact that atleast in principle, Lore and P'dragon are also similar. The fact is, this guy builds world class stuff for the money, period!
The cost difference is likely the Vifa vs. Audax tweeter. The Audax tweeters are more expensive. But still some may prefer the Vifa tweeter. If you do a search on Eminence, you should be able to basically figure out the driver he's using...
The woofer in the Pendragon looks like an Eminence Legend BP-02, although Eric may be using a different spec driver than what we would buy off the shelf. And with that in mind, the driver in Oriel "looks like" one of the Delta series drivers. The point to remember with these two designs (Lore v Oriel), but NOT speaking for Eric here... is that the Lore driver has a whizzer and therefore it is going to hand off to the tweeter higher up (around 3Khz I believe), where as with the Oriel, I would assume that it is going to hand off to the tweeter quite a bit lower than that. Still, Eric is all about simpliciy so I would assume that in both of the these, execution is well done. Hope this helps... |
I am running Pendragons with a 11 watt Xindak amp and it is plenty of power. I am getting powerful, tight bass with beautiful tonality and very articulate upper bass. I wouldn't be inclinded to think a 4ohm load is big deal as long as it is linear. Capellaudio bought those Pens and described his room as being small... I would conclude that would be the issue. The Pendragons need more than just 10x12 or so room to play or they will overwhelm the room. It sounds like they were a bad match with that Scott amp as well... but lets not be quick to such a conclusion that it is a 4ohm problem... because as I said my little chinese amp has no problem whatsoever. Since I replaced the tubes, I am getting crystal clear beautiful sound that transcends the Lore by a fairly wide margin (as it should re the price difference), and with that I am off the upgrade train finally! That is not to say that the Lores don't sound similar.. as they are great and surely do.. but the Pens recreate the live event better as they have a much thicker, and more powerful bottom and play more open due to the design with the triple tweeter array.
This gentleman clearly downgraded because in his room, simply less is more. |
Morganc - I have the 11 watt class A Xindak MT-01. With good tubes it is a perfect match in my mid-sized room. I also have a 200 watt Marsh A400s - great for rocking out and wanting some incredible dynamics and a powerful low end, but the tube amp is most certainly a better match in terms of tone and musicality... when the pens are set up right (equalateral triangle off the back wall with a nice wide stance), to me they are one of the best sounds I've ever experienced... |
Guys - I wouldn't be concerned about the cross-over. Eric uses a very simple approach, and the Lore is crossed over very high (around 3khz). Not sure about he M-lore but I think I rememer Eric telling me it is similar. Lets not get trapped into that type of thinking - rather it is all of the parts of the system that make up the whole. Eric's aptitude is in the execution of these things. Those of us that own his products can attest to that. There are many x-overless speakers that don't sound anywhere near as good.
No speaker I have owned can touch the Pendragon from a total package standpoint, and for those that just joined this thread, that includes:
Greybeard Audio KB ($9.5K and all Scan Speak)
Dynaudio Focus 220 II, Confidence C1 monitors, and A70's
Von Schweikert Audio VR-4 Jr Mk II
Quad ESL 989 (although these excel in mid range)
Martin Logan Ascent
PSB Synchrony One, and Stratus Gold I's
Silverline SR12
Rega RS7
The Tektons are phenominal speakers - it is a giant blessing to not have to be chasing the speaker train anymore like I had been since '08 ;) In addition to that, I never get tired of listening to the Pens... yet every other speaker I owned did not have that lasting affect. Go figure... |
Check this out guys!! http://parttimeaudiophile.com/ |
And I call the next speaker to be a a Seas based Pendragon! No offical word of it but I would assume that's next on the radar. As for me, I really like the "live" music sound of the Pro drivers. It's hard to go back to "toy" audio after getting used to it... but it's all good. ;o) |
Thanks for posting. Yes we have beem following your blog. So what do you think so far. My Pendragons broke in fast because this time I used a 200 watt ss amp to do the job. So are you getting strong dynamics and bass with 3 watts? The 4 ohm variant needs about 10 I would say. Congrats and welcomes. They are a unique offering that's for sure. Are you thinking giant killer???? |
The Lores will be fine for that type of music, but even better with your live rock recordings. I don't listen to MEtallica per say anymore, but I do listen to mostly rock and some harder stuff. The Lores a definitely not too soft and certainly not going to be bright either. They are very neutral but designed to sound like live music, opposed to a hi Fi sound... If that makes sense. Agood tube amp 10+ watts and you should be a happy guy. |
Impressive review, Socrates! Thank you for your time and dedication to writing that up. I think what you have described is essentially the capstone of audio loudspeaker design, particularly in the type of transducer technology, voicing and ultimately to what the designer wants to accomplish. It took me 15 speakers to learn what I preferred. The Maggie’s are surely on “that” end of the spectrum - break taking detail capabilities and extremely revealing, but to my ear they lack the emotional qualities – such as musicality and harmonic texture.
But I would argue that the Pens are also very detailed, in the sense that they convey all of the music and are not rolled off. As you pointed out on the Pendragon, the triple SB Acoustic tweeter array is doing allot of the work, so it’s certainly not all on the drivers. The tweeters are some of the best i have heard, and I have owned Esotar2 tweeters. I think allot of this has to do with comparing the two technologies, as you most certainly did a great job of – ribbons are almost always unforgiving, but highly detailed to the point that one can hear into the recording like never before. The danger of this type of detail level is that while can one will hear everything, one will hear EVERYTHING. On the other hand, a speaker like the Lore/Pendragon, trades off detail for the ability to be more forgiving, more convincing as a “live music” transducer, and high on the emotional content because it can be run with lower powered tube amps which most of us would agree, is the main reason why we get the great tone and harmonic textures that make the presentation so satisfying to listen to.
And, therein lies the fork in the road, where one is either an audiophile, or a music lover... or as in your case, one can appreciate both. |
Gooddomino - fo to JW audio (zman;'s website). And try out some of his cables. You want to detail; you will have it. :)
The best cables I have heard in my system, period! |
In general, all things equal, more power = more control. But it is also true that the lower power SETS and class A tube amps may give you a sweeter, more "romantic" type of sound but at the expense of headroomm, spl, etc. You should be fine. |
MrKoven - I am not sure if anybody here has a m-lore yet? Anybody...? The m-lore has certainly been overlooked, but with 2 spectacular reviews now, obviously it has slipped under the radar (though that is about to change). I owned Lores prior to upgrading to Pendragons,and I easily could have lived with them for a long time. I think, in your room, you can't go wrong w either, but ,why not save a few and go with the m-lore. I certainly would for a small room system. Your amp should be great. Keep us informed. |
Thanks for the great info. Wow, you have really been through a journey. Curious: what are you running on the front end (source, pre, amp, etc.). Wondering how much of this is related to that or the room, etc. I say this because I never experienced with my my former Lores - the Audax was a great tweeter. I remember my top end being free of all sibilance with Quicksilver Mini Mites and cary Cdp-1 for source. The Pendragon as well, even with a lesser amp, but my room is also treated a bit so maybe I am a little spoiled with that, yet not the whole story because I've heard sibilance in this room with a different speaker. Sibilance is one issue I have never experienced with these, but when I did in the past it was usually a front end issue. I remember experiencing this with Paradigm speakers, but then again my electronics weren't up to snuff then either. Are you running tubes? Keep us informed... |
"GPowered: which cables are you using?"
I am using JW Audio Reference Interconnects and speaker cable. They are cryo treated and cooked solid core copper. Hit Zman up if you want to demo. They are simply the best I have ever heard and not expensive. The Ref IC's are new and prob not on his website yet, but compared to the Signature (i used it for 5 mths or so prior), there is absolutely no glare or etch and they are natural as I have experienced. Soundstage is wide and deep - nothing left to be desired. So before you dish out a bunch of cash, I strongly recommend you give them a try. I never would have though these would have been what they are. |
Guys - since we are on the subject of cables, do yourselves justice and hit ZMAN up. His cables are simply THE BEST I have heard with the Tektons. This is not an advertisement for him - it is down right silly to not try as he is one of our brothers here, and because his cables are NOT expensive and I am telling you that are amazing. Cryo and burning treatment makes some really interesting changes for the better. He just came out with a new SIGNATURE interconnect that is as natural as I have heard - no glare or etch whatsoever. You may think you don't have this issue, until you try a set of these and then its wake up time. At least that's what i experienced. |
Told you guys the Lores and Pens are for REAL!! ;0) |
All good guys. The credit goes to the Lord. I finally have peace and it is all about the music. Was listening to some Chris Tomlin tonight on the Pendragons. With just 10 watts in a mid sized room, the bass is tight with so much definition and weight... And the soundstage is expansive, much like a live performance. Awesome! And I am not in a honeymoon phase here.... |
Congrats Goramen - well done. Now go enjoy the music!! |
Goramen - that space is going to be tight but possible if your room is treated, especially in the corners. You have to be sure that you can spread them nicely. Mine are about 7.5ft apart, and I sit the same distance away. But one thing is for sure: the Dragons are a completely different animal. I still get floored by how much I was missing prior. Other full range speakers I owned can't contend either. |
Do tell your discovery's. Can you give specifics:
Much more realistic dynamics and bass weight; extension far superior. For instance, a bass guitar and bass drum sounds crystal clear and defined, with great harmonic texture. You hear a low end in recordings that was non existant prior. The soundstage is also wider and more expansive. The highs? Both are excellent, but the Pendragon extends taller and wider with the triple tweeter array. The Lore is fantastic, but thre P'dragon sounds so close the the real thing it is quite scary. The Lore may produce equal or greater depth though, since it is single driver and the P'dragon needs more room (esp off the back wall) to create the same depth effect. The Pendragon is the last speaker I buy unless I run out of room for them. ;o) seriously they ran me out of gas.... it simply ended the seemingly endless quest of speaker turnover... TG |
Sionlim - the Focal Chorus speakers and the Paradigm Sigs are going to be a "hi fi" sound. The Paradigm have lots of detail but neither of these are my cup of tea - they do not sound like music to me. They are certainly designed first for the home theater crowd. That is not to say they are bad music speakers, as some really like that, but they will come no where near a Tekton if you are guy that wants to try and recreate the live band... (speaking of Lores and Pens only)
Front port vs. rear port: My first pair of Pendragons were front ported, and they had a little more punch (pant flappin effect for sure) and dynamics. Eric told me they wee up +3db somewhere but the rear ported version may extend a little lower, and to my ear and in MY room (medium size), they tend to be a little cleaner or more polite in the bass, or perhaps they don't seemn to overload the room in the lower end as much as the front ports did. They do, however, need to be off the back wall a little more with rear porting, although I preferred the front ported version in practically the same position anyway. Hope this helps...
Great reports guys.... wow, this thread is really rockin! Peace to all! |
Just an fyi the Lore does have a crossover |
Hey guys. Good to hear from everybody. In light of my interest in recreating a live event, I am thinking trying out a Crown XLS-1000 class D pro switching amp with my Tekton Pendragons. I am curious to see if it will give me the dynamics I am looking for. Dynamics are very good with 12 watt Xindak, so I can only imagine w/ a pro amp. Any thoughts? |
Hey guys, what are your thoughts on using a class D Pro amp with a pair of Tekton Pendragons? I have my eye on a Crown XLS 1000... trying to recreate "live" sounding dynamics in my room. I am amazed at what a 12 watt tube amp can do... but I am a rock and contemporary guy and the "live" sound IS where these Tektons excel. Eric seem to think it will be a great match... thoughts? |
Congrads Boniccie! Bradluke0 - yes, I am considering selling my Pens and ordering the 8ohm version with some other upgrades! Just thinking about it though... if I had a local buyer I may do it. I love my 4ohm model so it's just a thought right now. I am using Crown pro amp right now and it's class D. I love the combination. |
Morganc - mainly just upgrading the resistors to be able to be handle big power, caps, increased internal dampening... and the more versatle 8ohm.
Rcduck7 - the class D pro amp is doing everything you said. I am running a single CROWN XLS 2500 (over 700! guaranteed watts into 4ohms). One thing I REALLY like is the rich, deep, but extremely articulate bass at the lower volumes. This amp really has a tremendous grip on the drivers. CRANK it up and it is crystal clear - almost deceptive in that it doesn't seem as loud as it is! I am not missing my tubes right now. Getting better and better as the hours build up on this amp. |
Morganc- thanks for the update! How difficult was it to install the caps and what changes are required in the xover for this new resistor?
I have to admit I am quite happy with this Crown amp in my system now. I also rearranged my room and was able to spread the speakers
9ft apart as well as sitting 9ft away. This made a gigantic difference, especially in the tone and mid bass/bass of the speaker. Much more defined now. It is amazing what placement can do. These speakers definitely need some room to do their best. Prior, I had been sitting about 7.5 ft away from them. A little too close. |
Trailsend - it would appear that the only thing that the Emo 8.3a and Lore have in common is price. You may want to compare other single or full range driver speakers to the Lore. The Emo is a conventional speaker and will undoubtably sound 100% different. May be a great speaker thoough, just not apples to apples. |
