Why will no other turntable beat the EMT 927?

Dear Kmccarty,
that sounds pretty reasonable. Are you happy with the sound or do you think there could be some improvement? Which table and arm are you using?

Dear Dkarmeli,

in the beginning of my digital adventure I was very sceptical about all the gimmicks you are describing: upsampling, wordclocking etc. As the dCS stuff is a real versatile system I still doubt that all users do know about the different possibilities these units offer. i don't like to know how many are using 50 Ohm bnc cables, maybe in different lengths (!) or do not use the right connectors (yes there is an impact on reflection). digital cables are a complete different issue, there are basic technical parameters to be followed but it's also more than 1/0, you may know this.

to keep it short, yes upsampling, using the right filters for the matching music makes a huge difference on sound. If you know how to handle you will be surprised about the terrific sound it can result in.

not using a master clock is giving away a good portion of the good sound.
you really need to test it. proper clocking is one of the most important issues in digital reproduction. Reaching more accuracy by a rubidium clock - in combination with the stability the master clock is providing - is worth a try. Of course you need locking the additional clock in the system properly, also using the correct menue options of your master clock.

If you wouldn't be so far away I could demonstrate all the different effects. On the other hand you may be right when asking why is it so complex finding a satisfying way for reproducing digital sources like CD and SACD. In our beloved analog field it is maybe the same. Yes, you could end up with a 1000 dollar unit, coming with tonearm, cart, phono pre and everything you need to get sound from the grooves. Would you happily settle on this? I believe No!

As you are working on your FR (cabelling - I did lots of recabellings, some I kept, so on the SME 3012 Ia or on the Ortofons) this shows the favour for improvement and testing. I don't have the vacuum lips you got on your blue micro, I had them on the SX II. I tested different turntable plates and finally settled with an Audio Technica AT6278. Also discovered when fixing the additional platter very hard to the Micro platter it improves the sound. Using the original RY-5500 motor I built in a very good new 240 V power supply to reach more precision and stability. Despite the results were very promising in the end I went for the VPI steering system providing me with even more possibilities.

When configurating the three units (motor, table, fly-wheel) I also realized it is the best to isolate all units on separate artifical coral platforms thus avoiding vibration interactions. The vacuum pump got a separate damping box (btw nice and clever design :-) and is completely separated from the rack - this is the worst vibration source.

Yes, the Neumann DST-62 is a very special cart. I am not sure if a Neumann arm (one has to find such a rare thing!) may carry all the positive characteristics of the cart. The EMT 997 and the SME 3012 Ia will do. I use the SME on my EMT...

What about your system besides the blue micro and the 927? Among your many tonearm/cart/phono configurations which one is your absolute favourite?

Dear Norman, Dear Lewm,
Promise, I will report on the Victor very soon. Need to configurate two arms with carts. Phono pre will be the Zanden II.

Having experimented with quite some tables of all drive technologies I was fascinated with DD drive the first time when I aquired a Nakamichi TX 1000 some 10 years ago, a more or less Micro Seiki design with a MS direct drive. The Denon 100 was my next win in this specific field. I don't remember very precisely but I think there was a guy `Down Under always pushing me to go for a Victor 101 DD table. Maybe I was not the only one :-)). When I listened to the Victor in Sydney my surprise was quite obvious. Okay I thought, maybe I should give it a try despite the complex electronic design of the Victor, thus showing that many ingenious development teams had "collaborated separately". I had experience with that phenomenon when refurbishing the electronics of the Nakamichi.

 

Accidentally in 2015 I bought a Victor 101 wreck in Canada going for full refurbishment. After one year of learning about the circuits, the motor design, the necessary chips etc. my repair shop was able to bring the Victor back to life... This table now is completely up to date.

 

So I started comparing the Victor 101 with my Denon 100, the Continuum Criterion, my big Micro SEIKI and the EMT R80 (927). Or to put it in other words, looking how the small guy performs in comparison with the Big Monsters. Let me state beforehand I am using different phono stages but on a very equal level: Zanden II, Boulder 2008, EMT JP 66, Kondo M7.

 

Comparing the tables at this session I am using similar or the same MCs but different tonearms: on the Victor- SME 3012 R II Pro and Continuum Copperhead. On the Denon -Exclusive EA10 and Denon Dynamic Servo Tracer. On the Criterion -SAEC WE 8000 and Continuum Cobra. On the R80 - SME 3012 I and Ortofon RMA 309. On the Micro - SAEC 506/30/FR 66s. Cables are usually Crystal Cable Dreamline or Ortofon TSW-6000

 

In the end there might be many parameters which are not matched or comparable.

When I talk about my impressions it is a very personal and individual assessment based on the experiences I collected with my units in my listening room. The record I used on all tables was Miles Davis – Kind of Blue, Original Master Recording (MFSL 45 rpm, 2015).

 

I also have an excellent master tape copy of Kind of Blue which makes it easier to get an idea what the pressing and the turntable/tonearm/cartridge/phono-pre combination is able to deliver.

 

After isolation tuning and some other small improvements the Criterion/Cobra plays on the perfectly adjusted Boulder 2008 in such a convincing and stable/quiet/thrilling way that I always shake my head in disbelief when I read depreciating comments on blogs around Boston. I guess these boys never had the chance listening to these units in a chain, other than on audio fairs.

 

The Micro with a modified motor and double fly wheel connection does his job as good as the 5 times more expensive new version. The trumpet of Miles and the Saxophon of John are staying in the room like in a small Jazz hall, just as you are sitting close to the stage, direct, open, precise and catching you. Nevertheless the EMT with it's idler drive - the unit is as old as me- is able to add a nice punch providing an even slightly deeper sound stage. The bass, and I don't mean rumble noise (:-P), is just perfect. Still my favorit.

 

When it comes to the two direct driven tables the majestic and technically superb DENON astonishingly does not beat the small Victor. Both units deliver a fantastic wide and deep sound, even better than the big Sony which I would regard as an excellent table but a bit overrated, also due to Sony's tonearm geometry.

 

Having in mind how much you need to invest for all the Big Boys - Ah, I still love them - you may reconsider if it isn't worth going for a refurbished Victor 101 in a good plinth.

The man in Sydney must be very happy in his rocking chair...

 

...and I am enjoying Miles from this wonderful new MFSL pressing on the Victor 101!

 

 

Sorry, Sonicbeauty, don't get your arguments. Do you have some?

Are we still talking about turntables, their pros and cons? When arguments are missing maybe because one has no experience with the unit itself or one likes talking about people rather than the subject or just developing other sideways it always shows me that is a waste of time following these misleading thoughts. For 10.000 I would go for as many 927s as I could :-)

Dear Nandric,
I was asking "what is the reason why no other TT can beat the 927?" (at that time) which is different to your statement "no other TT can beat the 927". I think we worked out quite some reasons. You as a "master of logic" should not tend to interpretations which are more or less as subjective as our assessments are...

Dear Nandric,
I usually like your philosophical implications. Nevertheless I am wondering why the turntable has to be adversely affected by this...?

Dear Nandric,
What I have seen in Munich looks very promising. Nevertheless we have to see it running and assessing with our subjective ears. Maybe my 60 years old turntable will then hand over its crown, maybe...

Dear Nandric,
You sound a bit frustrated, what happened? You may go for a 927on ebay.de
Should be no problem for you. I am sure!

Dear Nandric,
not caring about TTs is a position of extravagance you are taking. I know you are provoking a bit. May I propose you are going for a very good table and put your tonearms and carts on it. You might then return and tell me about your new life :-)

Dear Nandric,
It's not about competing. We want make you happy :-). Your TTs are good tables but not in the top range. Anyway it is only a suggestion. You do not need following us but do not minimize the importance of a good drive. It's where it all starts...

Dear Lewm,
Suspense is the most important ingredient of a good thread.
Suspension is one of the secrets of a good working 927!

I see you are philosophically locked. In this case there is only one doctor who can help but I see he already came running into your direction.

Why is this idler drive being able to reproduce music from a record in such a fantastic way? I am sure it has something to do with the technological concept, the building quality, the big motor which summs up to a revolving stability just from the spot. You do not have it with a 930 in the same way. But look at the many good answers on these pages which should give an idea why it is the way it is.

At the moment I am using a DST 62 in my old Ortofon tonearm tracking with 6,25 p. The SUT which is transfering the phono signal to the EMT phono pre is a Neumann BV33.
You need to hear this, it is a stable, powerful and harmonic sound, not highlighting the highs or the deeps in one or the other direction. Do you mind if you are confronted with a powerful sound, clear, precise, warm & with a deep dimension picture?

This is not a gentle breeze or a softly singing bird just allowing you to do other things while listening. Here you are entangled and engaged. You like this? Whenever you have the chance to audition one of these machines which are older than we pls. let me know that I am not completely on the wrong track...

Dear Lewm,
There are some 927 in the US. Recently I just got information from a friend who aquired one from a studio in Illinois. Of course you need a good restoring shop - but there should be some too. So there is hope 😉.
You're right on the sorcerers in Germany, Austria and the Netherlands.
The R80 and the Continuum are two different animals. I enjoy the Criterion very much. Nevertheless - and here you are right again - the EMT is my favourite.

Dear kmccarty,

You are coming quite a good way being familiar with the idler technology as well. Having tested many DDs like Nakamichi, Sony, Micro Seiki etc. I ended up with a Denon 100 and Victor 101. For me all different drive technologies bear advantages and some downsides too.

Yes, the EMT 927/ R-80 can. It is not only a well built massive machine but also absolutely stable in speed. My R-80 does not have a felt brake which was introduced to level down the slightly overdriven speed (a planned design feature). This means you will not hear that kind of brake noise. Nevertheless the big and robust synchronous star-shaped motor makes a little noise which you don’t hear anymore when going one meter away. Additionally I am using the Dusch Multiconverter DU 937. It provides the R-80 with a variable frequency, thus controlling & adjusting the revolutions by electronic measurement. Using the Timline the stable light shows me I am keeping exately the right speed. In this way I cannot use the R-80’s inbuilt stroboscope. The DU 937 is also a high grade fine net-filter against frequency and voltage variations.

I am carefully speeding at below +3 % in the variable modus (+/- 10%) thus avoiding any vibrations by the motor. This is important, otherwise the internal phase spacer of the motor will change his working points and allow vibrations.
My EMT has not an inbuilt phono stage allowing me to use the EMT JPA 66 pre/phono pre.

Yes, the excellence derives from the wholistic design and the precise building. It is a lot of fun operating the big switches, starting the platter from the first moment while the massive table rests on the heavy and cleverly constructed suspension frame

Dear lohanimal,
You are very right on stating that people are different and also their listening customs vary quite much. I do think that when we have practiced a good time in our hobby, also having enjoyed good systems, our ears get trained being enabled to hear the overtones too while at the same time some frequence rages in the communication and higher areas may get lost.
I am very open to other tables as you may see on my AudioCirc page. I am not listening to my R 80 only. And there are other excellent desings out there. For me it is always an excitement comparing good tables and experimenting with different phono chains. Nevertheless I am always puzzled how a 60 year old design is able to beat some of the modern 100.000 tables.

Nandric,

Affording is the one thing, but what you make out of the components is the other. All Turntables owned by me - good! We may agree on this, but pls. look on my page...

Best
E.

Peter,
I have seen the original Denon 308 "in live". Just a very impressive instrument, full of electronics - which was part of the time then. Your integration of the DD motor in your new chassis is a good effort, only the tonearms wouldn`t be my first choice :-)

Owning a perfect Denon 100M I regard the DD motor as one of the 1st important parts.

Best
E.

Lohanimal,
thanks for your assessment of my page. Agree that people have a different listening approach or let`s say preferences. Among many of my friends are enjoying vintage systems. They do not care about the sometimes missing bass which is ok when you are listening to some forms of Jazz etc.
Regarding the Dartzeel I am using the CTH-8550 in my bedroom system. BTW I do agree with Mike Fremer who is using the big mono blocks in his solid state based system. I have never heard a better sound from a solid state system than with the Dartzeels. In my big system I am using a tube based approach.

Best
E.

I am using new short EMT-headshells putting in different carts like the Ortofon-A 95. I also found a Fidelity Research FR-7 in Japan built into a short EMT headshell (original design). You may also use a second arm using heavy weight carts like the Neumanns or EMT Mono Bakelite. 

My R 80 carries no phono. I rebuilt an EMT Phono by two EMT Mono designs of the sixties with new caps etc. It makes a lovely vintage sound, different to the EMT-66 which I also use.

Playing with this „Monster“ table you know why it is so damned good! Of course you may accommodate it into a nice listening room 😊 ( audiocirc).

Best
E.

Dear Lewm,
yes, I still have the TT101. And do use it in my bedside system. Wonderful DD. 
Clearaudio is a good company, especially in the higher region. The Goldfinger, from the V2 version is just a great cart.

best
E.

Congrats Lewm!
whenever you have a question just call me or do write.

best
Thuchan

Dear Nandric,
as we see tables rising into half a million I am out of this race. The only one who will be left are you. I heard the Apolyt twice, in Dietrichs new studio it sounds perfect! My R-80 should have doubled its price in the meantime 😊. It is now as old as me. 
Should I order an Apolyt for you?

best
E.

Dear Nandric,
a question of age, ears or room condition?
i was approached by some people who are wearing ear plugs all the time. They told me it will improve the capability of listening, also to good music. I checked myself, so far everything is fine, except of a little valley at around 1000 Hz. No need at the time being.
Room condition: With your new Apolyt arriving soon we might change your room condition a little. Sleeping room or living room? Shall I accompany the table transport?
never forget friends, especially when they are music lovers.
Enjoy.

best
E.

Dear Nandric,
teasing is one of my specialities.
regarding the new rules I have to concentrate on audio only...

btw. The EMT 927 receives enormous price jumps.
imagine a nearly 60 year old product beating so many young tables!

best
E.

I still hear that there might be not a profound understanding of the idler technology. Some describe it as the rattling of the London Underground trains. I really recommend these audiophiles listening to a well serviced EMT 927 /R 80. They will change religion...

best
E.