Maybe I'm too dumb to appreciate that humor or maybe those jokes aren't funny but either way I'd like to steer this discussion, if there is one, back to the opportunities and options that horns can provide.
It would seem that the guys who don't like horns were obstinate enough to chase away the few who do. Too bad. |
The following article was sent to me by an experienced and dedicated horn enthusiast. I thought it might help to clear up some of the misunderstanding concerning horns and their potential, especially since it comes from a very credible source.
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/manufacture/whyhorns.htm |
Gawddamn, gawdbless, your jokes are terrible. And don't seem to segue too well into this discussion. Lousy, unfunny, awkward and inappropriate.
It appears to me that only a handful of the thousands of people who use horn based speaker systems worldwide can be bothered to read the Audiogon forums. I think it is because they have progressed so far beyond the trivial egocentric, brand name palaver that dominates these discussions that they long ago lost interest. For my own part, I have stopped reading anything that asks about B&W or Thiel or Vandersteen or Krell or Wilson because there is never anything new or interesting to be found. My apologies for inquiring. |
Learsfool - You are certainly welcome. I had high hopes that horn lovers would come out of the woodwork and learn about each other and share their info about who is making and offering horn products and about shortcuts, bargains or mods that might further the appreciation of what horns can do. We got some info about Klipsch mods and some comments from horn designers and some people like Herman who really is adventurous and innovative. But mostly we went round and round defending our interest against an unnecessary and unwelcome onslaught of naysayers who justified their intrusion by pointing out repeatedly the title of the thread. All in all - not very successful.
As for the $5000, I threw that figure out there as a contrast to the $60,000 you often see for quality horn systems. There isn't much finished product for sale under $10,000, even used. Unless you purchase vintage items like Altec, Klipsch and JBL. I used an old pair of JBL L-200s as bass modules, bypassing the crossovers and horns inside them and hard-wiring the woofers to a power amp. I used the preamp I already had and bought a DBX Drive Rack PA for about $400. Then I used an amp I already had to drive my horns. So my rig didn't cost me very much. The horns and compression drivers were about $3500 at the time including shipping from Canada.
If you get the urge at some point, you might find that you can add a better horn to your Cornwalls. Or you might have very good results for a lot less money by investigating some of the aftermarket upgrade options available for Klipsch. I have no experience with them but the reports seem sober and realistic and numerous. Or you could just decide that you are happy and keep on keeping on.
If you are in western Colorado sometime, you are welcome to hear my horns. |
Mapman - Part of my intent here is to elicit testimony from people like myself who found an affordable way to put together a good horn system.
T-bone - I suspect you are right. I know a couple of guys in other parts of the country who have Oris and swear by them. Both are seasoned audiophiles and highly credible. |
Interesting article, Duke, although much of it went over my head.
I've seen a lot of references over the years to the JBL K-2 and Everest speakers as if they represent a pinnacle of speaker design. Do you know anything about them and how well they stand up to other statement speakers? |
Here we are at half-time in the World Cup Final and I have to revise a comment I made a while ago. I called the Dutch physical. After watching a half where they should have wound up playing with only 9 guys on the field, I want to say that the Dutch are a chippy, chickensh*t, cheating bunch of thugs. Hup yours, Holland. |
Duke - It appears from photos of the K-2 that Usher made a copy of it at one point. Is the Usher as good? Or better? |
Mapman - Please don't quote Ronald Reagan to me. The man was a moron.
I do hope you are bright enough to realize as much. |
They do. In fact, many people would say they sound a lot better than they look. They were designed for OMA by Bill Woods. |
Here is a link for the AH300 horn in the OMA speaker.
http://www.acoustichorn.com/products/300/
A pair of these horns is $2700 in plain maple with a small upcharge for other woods. I believe I paid an extra $150 for cherry.
You can have the aluminum horn throat customized for any driver you wish to use at no extra charge. The B&C drivers that I use sell for around $1100/pair. These numbers are not chump change but they really are a bargain. I combined my horns with a pair of JBL L-200 cabinets (usually $1000 - $1200 per pair used) and a DBX Drive Rack PA for $400. Beyond this, all you need is 2 amps for bi-amping and some time, effort and experimentation tweaking the many variable settings on the DBX. If you do the math, you'll notice you are pretty close to 10% of $53,000.
You may notice I didn't mention a tweeter. That's because you probably won't need one but the B&C driver is a coax and there is a concentric horn tweeter included should you want it. That can be crossed in passively or you can add a small amp and tri-amplify.
The performance level of this speaker will blow your mind. |
Vernneal - That's subject to personal circumstances. My horns are 24" wide by 21" deep by 52" tall. Not small and not enormous. Because they are back near the front wall, their space consumption isn't particularly egregious, however, the 18" diameter horn mouth is pretty eyecatching. In other words, the aren't really too big but they are pretty conspicuous.
Given the need for space behind them, I would say that most panels are effectively larger. |
Mapman - My setup is shown on the Acoustic Horn website. I have provided several links earlier in this thread but no one seems to have noticed.
Go to "Testimonials" and scroll down to "Tom in Denver". I'm not actually in Denver but that isn't too important. You should be able to enlarge the photos with just one click. The speakers are still the same even though I have changed most of the rest of the pictured gear. |
Gawdbless - When you were talking about wooden cones I took you to mean conical wooden horns. JohnK apparently thought you were talking about conventional drivers with wooden cones. It is apparent you guys are cross talking and missing each other's meanings.
I agree that $53,000 is way too much to pay for speakers when you simply don't have that kind of money, which I don't. However, I have been trying to notify you people that you can acquire the same performance and comparable cosmetics for approximately 10% of that investment.
I've spelled it all out repeatedly. I've told you how to investigate for yourself. If you want me to do more, I can set you up for half of $53,000 or $26,500 plus shipping. And I can get you a deal on a bridge too. Have you ever seen the Brooklyn Bridge? How would you like to be the one charging tolls on that baby? |
Mapman - Scan back up this very page about 10 entries and you will see a pretty complete recipe for my speakers that I submitted on July 20. If I wasn't clear or didn't provide enough info, feel free to ask me questions. |
Here is the newer PA+ version. It does all the same things that mine does. I use it as a crossover, time delay and EQ.
http://www.dbxpro.com/PA+/
With this device you can shape your sound any way that you want. |
The JBL has a passive crossover built into the cabinet but there are connections on the back for separate driver hook up. At first I used the JBL XO and just disconnected the mid-range horn in the JBL and connected my AH300 horn instead.
Then when I got the dbx, I ran out of my preamp to the inputs of the dbx and then on to an amplifier that drives my horns and another amp that drives my woofers. Currently I have replaced the JBL woofers with a pair of RCF L15P530 woofers. The only thing from the JBLs that I still use is the box.
My crossover frequency between my woofers and my horns is 300 Hz. I use a 24 db/octave LR filter in both directions, one half meter of time delay, and a small amount of shaping. I'm sure I don't have it optimized but I'm quite happy with the sound overall. Does this explanation make sense? |
I'm getting email inquiries daily about the status of Bill Woods. So I checked into the matter. Several people who have contacted Bill report that he is not taking any more horn orders for a year so as to catch up with demand.
Turns out this is true. Bill is in demand with the pros and with certain speaker manufacturers. He has taken on a huge contract and feels he has to postpone taking additional horn orders until he has the time to fill those orders properly.
Meanwhile, he will be busy with design and consulting commitments. No rest for the best. |
All quiet on the horn front. Apparently everyone is so content with their speakers that there is nothing else to say. |
Jeff1225- If you read back through this and other horn threads you will find my system described and justified for critics exhaustively. There are links to manufacturers demonstrating and explaining components such as horn, driver, crossover, woofer, etc. I have included links to photos and links to articles that I felt might be helpful.
If you are referring to a link next to my signature like you have, I don't know how to do that. It would probably be a useful shortcut for me though. |
http://www.usspeaker.com/Faital%20Pro%20HF20AT-1.htm
http://www.prosoundservice.com/m9_view_item.html?m9:item=BC-DCX50
I am confident in the claims you make about your new compression driver which I linked above. The other link is my driver. Aside from the fact that mine is a coax, they seem pretty similar. |
Vernneal - All of those points you mention could effect one's decision about whether or not he wants (or can have) horns. But you left out relativity. How big of a speaker is too big or how costly is too expensive, will be different for everyone. Here are some facts about my system, which works well in my space. Individual readers can then compare my circumstances against theirs and determine via real facts whether or not horns could work for them. Bear in mind that smaller and cheaper horn options are available. Mine are just one example that I know well.
In order:
Size: Woofer boxes have a footprint of 24 inches wide by 21 inches deep. Horns are mounted on top of woofers for a total height of 51 inches.
Ugly: Completely and utterly arbitrary - varies with appearance and taste.
Room size: My room is 15 feet wide (system wall) by 22 feet long. The ceiling slopes from 10 feet at the left wall to 8 feet on the right wall.
Listening distance is about 12 feet from from drivers.
Costly: I bi-amp. My horns, compression drivers, woofers, cabinets, power amps and DBX drive Rack PA all taken together cost me less than $5000. That is chump change to many audiophiles and a ridiculous amount of money to others.
I live in a 1400 sq. ft. ranch house with an advantageous floor plan. My system doubles as a 2 channel home theater with a 50 inch plasma hanging on the wall behind my components.
I added the last few facts just to add emphasis to the affordability of the horn option. |
Compression drivers for $76,000 per pair leaves me wondering what could possibly justify such a price. If my drivers were blocks of pure gold they might not be worth that much money. |
I wrote the above entry yesterday with an eye toward hyperbole. Then this morning I wondered about the numbers and did this calculation.
My drivers weigh 7.3 lbs each or 116.8 ounces. Gold bullion is selling today for $1324.66 per ounce. So that works out to $154,720.29 per driver.
That is actually 4 times the price of the ALE drivers,so I exaggerated much more than I actually thought. Nonetheless, I'm still left wondering what could possibly make those drivers so costly. Does anyone know? |
I had a visit last week from David Wall of Snob Productions. He installed and calibrated my XTA DP-224 Speaker Management System for me.
This effort replaced my DBX Drive Rack PA.
With a tool like the XTA in the hands of a skilled sound engineer like David, every parameter can be adjusted and all guesswork eliminated.
I don't think it is possible to get to this place with pre-packaged speaker systems. One amp per driver and universal adjustment capability has proved to be the answer for me. Turns out my horns are even better than I previously thought. |
Does anyone else out there have experience using XTA? |
Mapman- I've been unable to determine where the horn is in this design and I can't really get my head around the concept of an omni horn.
Please explain. |
"I believe" indicates that you are guessing. I don't know enough about the intricacies of speaker design to evaluate your speculation.
Maybe someone else can explain how it works. Anybody? |
Mapman - My curiosity got the best of me so I checked out the GP website. The Unicorn does look fascinating. The efficiency is strangely low for a horn system and the power handling modest but I'm sure anything from that company has merit. Alas, I can't afford them. |
T-bone - I don't look anymore. I don't want to be tempted. My horns are good enough. State of the art is way too expensive to contemplate. They've finally moved the carrot so far ahead that I can no longer see it.
Anything appreciably better than what I have retails for a year's worth of my Social Security. |
Listener614 - You needn't assume anything about us. You can read the thread and find out the facts as to what kind of horns we use. It's all right there in black and yellow. Nothing could be planar.
Be careful, though, you might subject yourself to retraction effect. |
For those of you who are ready to take a long step up, I just learned about this rig for sale. Check it out.
These horns will change the way you experience audio.
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1295725784&/Acoustic-Horn/Bd-ah!-300-w-b-c |
Mapman - Those horns, with their enormous dynamics and high efficiency, are the best you will find for home theater purposes. I would say that you, more than anyone else who has responded to this thread, are a great candidate for this product. Bill's AH 300 is one of the few options out there that can equal the Walsh mid range. Manger and QUAD are the others. None of them have the power of horns, however, and no other horn I've heard has the transparency of the AH 300. |
ALL CAPS makes it seem like you are shouting, JW5115. One could say it adds a megaphonic quality to your comment.
I would think that the design of the horn would cause the megaphone effect, not the type of driver. Men and women have vey different voices but both will sound like they are talking through a megaphone when that is what they are doing. Likewise, either of them will sound very different with, and without, the megaphone.
You seem to be selling field coils with a weak argument based entirely on your opinion. Are you in the field coil business? |
Hxt1 - What else are you using with your horns to bring you that precarious balance? Most of the objections to the use of horns seem to be based on size and cost and you appear to have avoided both of those potential problems and come away very happy. |
Seadogs1 - Take some time and read through this thread. I know it's long but there is a lot of info in it that will answer your question.
My horns are AH300 by Acoustic Horn Company. I am using B&C DCX 50 compression drivers. These are mounted atop a pair of JBL L-200 cabinets which contain RCF L15P530 woofers. Crossover, etc. is handled by an XTA 224. I think they are good. |
Bose in a swimming pool room sounds appropriate as they are designed to echo off the walls. However, I can't begin to imagine how they would ever approximate the sound of any horn, good or bad.
Hifisoundguy seems to be a shill, and a very poor one at that. Is there anyone here who takes any of his many Bose 901 recommendations seriously? |
Just to reassure potential horn owners - Horn based loudspeaker systems DO NOT attract pests and vermin the way that horn based threads tend to.
I suspect many horn owners keep quiet about what they have at home out of fear that they might attract the attention of bashers, busters and boneheads. Certainly reading Audiogon threads with "horn" in the title seems to make participation risky. It isn't really. They're all talk and mostly just repetitive. All hat - no cattle.
So feel free to sing the praises of your big beautiful speakers if that's your wish. I've been doing so for a couple of years now without any infestation -- just a few insults and a little derision and name calling -- things I learned to ignore back in second grade. |
Hi Marty- Feels good, huh? Finally you've found out who you really are and you've been able to shed the yoke of peer pressure and the need for public acceptance. Congratulations!!!
Your bravery and your wonderful story of self-discovery can only serve to empower other closeted horn lovers everywhere. You've provided a strong example by coming out like this. Thanks for sharing. |
JW-
Unless the "LIVE" event is a rather intimate venue, it will reach your ears via horns. Did you know that? If so, why the remark?
The thread started a long time ago and wandered pretty far afield at times, but my aging memory thinks the subject of live music was broached more than once. That's only natural since horns are the undisputed best choice for professional sound reinforcement. |
Horns in general are quite sensitive. It is incorrect to generalize similarly about horn owners.
In my own case, I am not particularly sensitive about negativity but I do find myself growing impatient at times with those who insist upon imposing poorly informed or uninformed aspersions on the entire horn category. There are many different horn designs, many different implementations and many different applications. Any and all of these are apt to be misapplied and/or misunderstood by individuals who are mischievous, malicious or naive.
If you read back through this thread carefully, you will find all of the above.
For my part, Bill Woods horns proved to be perfect. Notice the word "proved". I'm offering a well-established, thoroughly vetted, personal opinion. That means I am not wrong. Can't be. Anyone is welcome to disagree as to their own experience but no one can disqualify my experience.
On a similar note, let me ask if anyone here has actually heard the Acoustic Horn AH300 with B&C DCX 50 compression driver? I know of a few members who have but I suspect they are not to be found amongst the critics.
JW5115 - Your messages do not seem to come from a sober person whose first language is English. I find myself guessing as to what you are trying to say. Try again. No caps, please. |
Mapman - Does your wife need you to approve her hairstyle and attire before she can step out of the front door? Does she have to consider HAF when discussing decorating or gardening choices with her friends?
Just buy the damn horns and get it over with. And give it a fair shot. You are very knowledgeable vis a vis hi fi. Try something real like Oris, AH!, Edgar, etc. Klipsch Forte, while good for what it is, doesn't have the pizazz to get you past your Walsh infatuation. |
I hear you, Mapman. I'm feeling the same way now with similar circumstances.
I have one son in college and one who just decided it's not for him.
Participation on both of the audio forums I visit is down and the topics are mostly boring and rehashed rote. Hi end audio is withering on the vine. I have things to sell and can't seem to be bothered doing it. Any moves I can afford to make at this point in my life in regard to audio would be more lateral than vertical. The price of the dream equipment has moved beyond my wildest dreams. The carrot is out of reach and my interest has flagged because of apparent futility.
For a time, a bit of bargain hunting, downsizing and DIY kept my interest but now even those diversions have no effect.
I think I'm just going to like what I have. Multi-channel sound and special effects video have left me longing for simpler times. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like I'm going to be young again. |
Noseplums - That depends on the horn. . . what is it made from? How large is it? Does the material seem to resonate when playing?
In general, I suppose the answer is yes, but coat the outside surface only. Coating the inside would alter airflow and corrupt your wave. |
Good post, Viridian ---- but you're kinda late.
MrDecibel has had that foot in his mouth for 3.5 weeks now. |
Macrojack, I do not know what I said to give you this impression, but you are definetely entitled to your opinion. I am wondering if you have me confused with someone else. Would you please explain why you think my foot is in my mouth ?
Because you are scolding him for showing up when he did. For all you know, he joined Audiogon that day.
Also note that Face said, "Horns blow". Somehow you came away thinking he said suck.
I assumed he was attempting a play on words as most people think trumpet when they hear horn. We're the only weirdos who mean speaker when we say horn.
Or maybe he was being a wiseguy -- that happens too. |
Hxt1 - Thanks for noticing.
If you are considering a change and would like suggestions about a move to horns, this thread would be an excellent place to seek advice and/or suggestions.
You can also learn a lot by joining this forum:
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/
and asking questions.
Ultimately, I got enormous help and advice from Bill Woods. He has owned, worked with, tested and built just about everything available in speakers in his professional past. When he reached retirement age, he left the corporate world and started designing and building horn systems. Today he calls himself The Acoustic Horn Company and operates out of a small shop behind his house in Hastings, Ontario. He doesn't sell a lot of his own product directly to the public but his AH!300 horn is used in several of the finest loudspeakers available today. With it you would have the basis for a world class system. Check out his website: http://www.acoustichorn.com/
You can find pictures of many systems, including mine, in the Testimonials section.
On Audio Circle you can find extensive info about Earl Geddes and his speakers. He is very popular with the DIY crowd there.
And post your room and your system here. Perhaps there is a strategy you haven't considered concerning upgrade sequence. It is also possible that some of us might have spare parts we can offer you.
Pete Seeger said that a camel is a horse designed by a committee so I guess you want to keep that in mind as the advice pours in, but you never know what good might come of this gambit. Stick your neck out.
|
We watched True Grit at my house last night. No cone or planar will ever deliver gun shots like my horns did. We checked each other for blood. |
Check this out:
http://www.oswaldsmillaudio.com/Products/imperia.html |
Harry Pearson has done a greater disservice to high end audio than anyone else I can think of. His faulty proclamations, pretentious stance, and cronyism misdirected about 2 decades worth of audio growth. The internet came to the rescue when we finally started talking amongst ourselves thereby learning the myth in his message. Stereophile was nearly as bad but not nearly as effective.
Those of you who have not spent significant time with a quality horn system know not of what you speak. Conventional horn drivers and panel efforts just can't manage the realism provided by well-engineered horns. If you are inexperienced, find a way to change that. I bought mine from The Acoustic Horn Company. Friends have Gedlee and I have heard EdgarHorns in the past that were quite impressive. There are numerous choices and Ralph (Atmasphere) has what I believe to be one of the best, Classic Audio Reproductions.
If you would like to hear mine, I'm in 81521. Perhaps some other owners will extend a similar invite. Seems like the best way to spread the word and debunk the myths about horns. |
