06-20-10: Audiokinesis wrote:
My bipolars radiate into a constant 90 degree pattern, both front and back, over most of the spectrum. Few dipoles maintain their initial figure-8 once we get up into the midrange and treble region; their radiation patterns usually change significantly with frequency (SoundLabs being a notable exception).
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Sorry , not sure how you are coming by this, everyone i have ever measured exhibits a classic figure 8 or pretty close 2 it, unless there is an reflection issue.
*How were you measuring ? you must have reflections issues.
*Also is your bi-polars reverse phase in the rear ?
* is yours a compression horn or a wave guide ?
I'm not sure about your question Duke, i must have missed it before , anyway i have never insinuated or said that i had listened to your speaker(s) before. |
Which of your speaker models are you suggesting for me to take a look at Duke ?
Which one sounds like a dipole ?
|
Hello Duke ,
Which maggies are we discussing ? Anything over 12K becomes directional regardless of the speaker.
The term figure 8 is an misnomer , in real terms it is used to signify similar pattern front/rear. SO we are getting into semantics discussing beaming etc as a dipole will have the same out of Phase pattern front to back ..
Of course a full range single panel will exhibit differently vs a 2 or 3 way dipole. |
Hello Ralph,
Yes Duke did comment and clarify on what he is doing in regards to his speakers and they are not a typical monopole horn system, his being a bipolar horn speaker, i do agree this could be a better presentation of a standard horn config and as technology marches on, i can see horn speakers getting better , but better than what? another horn , absolutely! The best available to us absolutely not! others are marching forward too.
I also cannot agree that a horn speaker will sound like a planer, 30 + yrs experience designing and selling speakers tells me not so, the radiating pattern large surface area and lower transient distortion vs a single driver over the same range are typical standouts.
But i do reserve the right to be wrong here, but that would entail hearing one of these magic Horns..... right ?
Don't feel this is all Horn bashing there are bad planers 2, Recall me saying 90% of the speakers on the market are bad , some really bad ! This is across the board affecting some topologies more than others, and i have heard bad electrostatic speaker on many occasions , as recently as a few months ago ....
I will continue to listen and enjoy the music, there are many multi panel planer systems capable of reproducing the best of a recording, not shy for bass and lacking nothing to a horn speaker for power not to mention multi panel dynamic dipole systems that are way ahead of any Horn system i have ever heard and i could accept that even with my contacts and exposure at the highest level of the game, that i may have never heard a good horn system...
I will have to accept your's and Duke's word for it, as you mine that they will not approach the sound of a well built planer system....? IMO ..
Regards, |
Duke, Ralph,
I have enjoyed the discourse and wish you both the best in such a tough business....
It's Audio .. nothing will be unanimous! no Indy 500 checkered flag! Nothing but a bunch of Nutters dedicating their cause to an imaginary goal and just like England , we can't score! No Cup! it's all about the journey.....
Enjoy ! ............... |
MacroTurd,
I'm sorry but you must have mistaken me for someone who gives a damn about your idiotic and abrasive rhetoric .
I guess you feel that Duke and Ralph won something ... LOL!
Please enjoy your distortionless speaker (your quote) Professor and get well soon...
Regards, |
Ohhh,
In case you missed it Macroturd ..
You are pissing on your own thread , I'm sure Duke is proud to have such an ignoramous as you for a customer! with your vast wallet and big ears your listening room must appear to have a pr of horns on either end ...
Well I'm sure it's now your milkey tme ! Many Happies...... |
Hello Herman ,
What brand xover are you using , can it do variable slope as well ? |
Unsound !
Post of the month ! Direct and on target mate, if only you had a "bull horn" so he could hear you!
LOL... ........
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06-24-10:
Macrojack, same old story indeed. You offered the paper to support your position, but, you object when others use the same offered paper to support a different position. Never mind that those of us that have found horns unsatisfactory, would not be impressed by "experts" in horn design. You suggest that we seek info from a reliable source. I suppose that means we shouldn't consider you a reliable source. Since you don't have any personal experience with the product your promoting, our "self congratulatory guess" is no worse than yours.
You buy stuff without auditioning, but suggest we shouldn't go off half cocked and buy something without investigation. We should keep our opinions in our imaginations, but you should the have right to post your opinions on this forum.
You suggest that we search for the opinions of strangers to find out if their experiences may(?)contradict the specs that you provided(?), for a product your promoting and many of us wouldn't otherwise be interested in. I did bother to open up and read the information you provided. On some level, I really have don't care to purse these speakers much more. Why should I? Decades of experience has suggested to me that pursing these designs are not likely to bear any fruit, and the information you provided doesn't seem to offer anything to change that. What I was trying to do, was offer my take on the same information, albeit different. Yes, by offering a balanced perspective, I was trying to be helpful.
|
06-25-10: Johnk
Large images are a result of recordings not loudspeaker design.
WE:
Agree on the first, disagree on the second, The recording sets the size and perspective of the instruments and vocals, but for eg. planers are notorious for having a big mouth sound, agree mini-monitors are on the other end of the spectrum vs planers..
06-25-10: Johnk
One thing your enjoying is the controlled dispersion of horns. This reduces room effects. Your also not moving air but exciting air molecules into motion just like a tidal wave the water from the event isn't traveling just the wave.
We:
Wow, Horns Excite molecules! Please pass the Bong John, sounds like good stuff
LOL...
06-25-10: Unsound:
JohnK, IME horns seem to have imaging issues, both in regard to specificity and scale.
WE:
Correcto mundo , as well as tonal balance.
Anyway no worries guys , it's audio , we can all enjoy what's available to us, Be it Horns , planers ESL, Ribbons dynamic , one woofer , 2 , Why i happen to have a beautiful Pr of nice shiny horns on my boat, You should see dem suckers move when i hit it , damn sure never heard any ribbon sound like that ...
yes sir ! |
06-26-10: Macrojack
Ralph Karsten owns Atma Sphere, a designer of OTL amplifiers who has risen to the top of the industry over the past couple of decades. He has stated a preference for horn loudspeakers because he feels strongly that they provide desirable characteristics which cannot be duplicated by any other available option.
WE:
I don't recall Ralph stating a preference for Horn speakers over other topologies and not everyone likes to drop their pants in public, to prove anything to you, just to voice an opinion, so please spare me the condescension.....
For the Record:
I have never heard a horn speaker that met my criteria, my decision is based on hearing the best of the best,So unless the best of the best currently available to man is not good enuff, never setup correctly, had the wrong amps or yada, yada, yada , I will stick to my conclusion until i hear differently ...Dig !
Nothing to do with hating Horns !
You on the other hand sound like you have something to sell......... |
06-27-10: Johnk
Weseixas since you say you've heard owned or have had much experience with the worlds greatest loudspeakers. Could you let me know brands of horns that you feel represented the best examples that you took the time to demo? You state [my decision is based on hearing the best of the best,] So lets hear it what are the best of the best?
WE:
Jadis Eurythmie ...
Acapella High vioncello...
Acapella Violon
Avantgarde Acoustic Uno
Avantgarde TRIO
KlipschHorn
Klipsch La Scala
Zingali 20 series 1.12
Tannoy Westminster
+
Numerous Altecs,JBL's, and custom built one offs over the years ....
Why not horns?
Again , everyone has there own preference, Maybe if you like small wattage tube amplifiers, this is your gig, maybe the only gig, they do not work for me...
I find dipoles/hybrids done right to be much better than all other topologies..
Better tonally
Better imaging
Better dynamics
But i have also heard really good sounding presentation from monopoles, much better than i have heard from the horn setups i have been exposed to...
For the record and the uninitiated amongst us, I'm not a Big maggie fan, I find them to be OK - good speakers, not great,same as some of the horns on the list, so go ahead and use them for surfing........
LOL..
Regards, |
06-27-10: Unsound
Gawdbless, I'm sorry, but, I don't understand the question.
We: Unsound you never will,It's a pointy head mystery..... |
06-26-10: Learsfool
Unsound, you are definitely mistaken - many, if not most of the greatest symphonic recordings of the "golden age" were monitored with horns. To name the most famous example, the Mercury people most often used Altec A7's, driven by MacIntosh electronics. A great many orchestral musicians are of the opinion that horns come the closest to recreating the sound of a live orchestra. Electrostats come close as well, but do not have the dynamic range of horns in either extreme. I also agree with Atmasphere and Johnk that horns can image as well or better than any other type, something which indeed is very important for classical music.
We:
Hello Learsfool,
Could you give me the name of one of those horns, My requirements are :
1. Good dynamics
2. Images well
3. Sounds natural
I would love to give them a listen ............
Regards, |
Hello 06-28-10: Learsfool,
Yes one mans euphoria can be another's anathema, so i do agree with you ... |
Hello Ralph,
Thanks for the lesson, i was not aware of such " American " education yuh know ...
regards, |
Yes Gawdbless,
A pity it took you this long to figure that out :)
Still open to this eye awakening episode . I'm not adverse to being proven wrong, give me a name of the horn speaker combo i need to be listening to 2 and i will attempt to do so, maybe all the ones from my list were never setup right,
I should also inform you, that most of those with the horn
systems listed were all exposed to what a good dipole system can do and to the man , they have all admitted not being there with their Horn setups, the last one as recently as last month, from a friend who is a recent horn convert and less just say after the comparison they are still tweaking ... LOL...
Convert me guys, Please do , i will enjoy the journey,,,,
regards, |
06-28-10: Gawdbless
We: will you not share what speakers you listen to and that what floats your boat?
I have heard a few of the speakers you list, and I would say my Impulse H1's can be held in the same company as any of them and, any speaker regardless of price or type of speaker whether it be a planar or boxed sealed type without fear of deemed second rate.
We:
Well have to admit , i have never heard of them , much less heard them , yeah , so you are right , i did find this description.....
# Impulse H1: The big hit, and an evolution from the HT1, H2a and H3 models to the archectypal 'Impulse' truncated horn design. Folded exponential bass horn, tractrix midhorn with driver open to rear. Sensitivity 94dB/W, 8ohms. Drivers: 8.5" Seas bass; 4.5" Seas mid; Focal TD90K tweeter.
# Crossover ponts: 800Hz; 4Khz; 2nd order summed response.
# Size: 1100mm H x 350mm W x 685mm D
# Finishes/ cost: Approx. £2,800: built to order, customer-specified veneer with cloth inserts.
# Weight: if you have to ask...
# Available 1988 - ?
Reviews:Jimmy Hughes in HiFi Answers, February 1989. It's a bit of an odd review, for a rave write-up...
Page 1 Page 2 Page 3 Page 4 (GIF format, 120-220K per page)
http://www.acoustica.org.uk/impulse/impulse.html
If this is your speaker ?
If it is, then it is not the typical horn stuff now is it, Yes i can see this speaker sounding much different from what macrobaby has....
I have also disclosed that i was involved in the audio field for years, we sold speakers at the high-end, so i listen to my own stuff and since we have always done di-poles (dynamic driver versions since 88 and ribbon hybrids later) I do have different versions of speakers available to me from mini-monitors to full large scale ribbons for listening....
Currently my main is a 3 way, 4 column full ribbon in both the bass, mid and highs, not planer magnetic as apogee used to be or maggies currently .
They work for me and work for most who have had the pleasure in hearing them, including my recently converted Horn speaker friends....
Again to each his own , i know what i hear and like between the different speaker topologies and ribbons done up right works for me, I'm sure yours work for you and sound good 2, as it does for many others here.
Enjoy the journey ....
Regards, |
Unsound ,
You had your s500 modified , Yes?
In the past , I have found the threshold pre-amp combo very sensitive to the cables/CD player output impedance/ cable type combo. Playing around with the cable from the CD player to the FET/10 makes a huge difference in perceived harshness picked up in the upper midrange area.
regards, |
The Better any system get's to the truth, is the less you will experience these so called un-listenable tracks...
This has been my experience over the years and Currently I can play any type of recordings or Music, my only concern is popping the 15 amp fuses in the amplifiers on really loud crescendos....
regards, |
Hello Larsfool,
Thanks for the post , Audiophiles listen to recordings of live music and not live music itself , a completely different experience from a musician..
The cello can only sound at it's best like a recording of a live cello and again i iterate.....
I can safely say the musician comment is not uncommon , well at least for my experience, I'm sure there are many other speaker companies with musicians making the same claim, that was my point, it is not unusual for manufactures to make that claim , that in itself does not guarantee a checkered flag...
regards |
Macrobaby,
Your ignorance and poor reading comprehensions makes it difficult to communicate with you, not everyone will have your Borg like acceptance and mentality. ...
G'day! |
Hello Learsfool,
My comments was not meant to be derogatory to musicians. Worked with and for many in the past, My comments were nothing more than to differentiate the experience between audiophile and musician ...
The recorded medium ...
Regards |
Hello Jonathan ,
Thanks for the showroom info, one can finally get to hear this Beast. I do find musicians to be a funny breed, I'm sure there are many in the business with similar stories, regardless it does seem based on your comments that the speaker is a serious speaker and worth a listen ... |
Unsound ,
It was an invitation to hear the greatest speaker in the world. :)
Hello Jonathan,
I took a look at your speakers, very interesting and i have a few questions..
* What makes this horn unique? because it's "conical " there are others using conical horns.
* Wouldn't using a dodecagon type Horn flare as you do have an disadvantage to a straight flair, one would think that a straight flare with the edges rolled (ala Avant garde for eg) have better aero and suffer from less refractions (noise) than a straight dodecagon type flare as yours, No ?
* Why not an Octagon , less refractive edges and i can't see you giving up anything in doing so over the 12 sided dodecagon, just a thought !
Anyway good luck with the new store, it's a tough business, but you know that already ....
Regards, |
Mapman,
I think many more would join, fair discussion is usually game, Unfortunately Macro views dissension as being hostile and reacts in that manner...
Macrobaby , The condecension is not necessary , we understand that you and others like the sound of this type of horn, It's audio, It's part of the game. Maybe an explanation as to why a straight flare with rolled edges ala Avante garde is inferior to a dodecagon as used by Mr Woods and Weiss...
Maybe Herman can comment on this also as he has Avante garde's speakers...
Regards, |
Ralph,
Interesting your response and worst your accusations.......
IMO you are suffering from serious conitive dissonance and as such you are not able to comprehend where this is going, so much so you end up disagreeing then agreeing .. LOL...
Which is it Ralphy ? |
Mapman,
If it steps past where I'm now, i would be the first with a set of Horns .. LOL..:)
|
Hey Atma !
A lot of my friends are ____________ yes really
A few of them have Horns and _______
A few tubes and ___________
A Few think analog is better , some say digital and _____
A lot still think the ribbons and SS sound better but_____
A lot of us get together and enjoy each other's diversity___
A lot of us enjoy the mix of toplogies_____________
A few of my friends are musicians with big pay checks_____
A lot of those same musicians can buy the best of the best _
A lot of them same muscians are not audiophiles ________-
A lot of them don't like that(effect)microphone imaging crap___
A lot of them are used to being on the other side of the mic _______ :)
A lot of us discuss the topic and not the ___________
You see , nothing derogatory , it is what it is .......
Regards, |
Hello Duke,
Thanks for the answer in regards to the horn types.
06-30-10: Audiokinesis wrote :
On another subject, I don't think mocking someone's moniker is productive,
We:
Please , do tell when this was done , i have only answered questions and charges, never mocked anyone's moniker IME, unless responding to such....
Point noted !
Regards, |
Finally making sense gawdbless :)
looks like the Germans will take it all the way, such was their domination over Argentina. At times it appeared they had 22 on the field, such was their coverage.
Regards, |
07-10-10: Gawdbless
www.bd-design
Love the subwoofers :) |
