Who needs a MM cartridge type when we have MC?


Dear friends: who really needs an MM type phono cartridge?, well I will try to share/explain with you what are my experiences about and I hope too that many of you could enrich the topic/subject with your own experiences.

For some years ( in this forum ) and time to time I posted that the MM type cartridge quality sound is better than we know or that we think and like four months ago I start a thread about: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1173550723&openusid&zzRauliruegas&4&5#Rauliruegas where we analyse some MM type cartridges.

Well, in the last 10-12 months I buy something like 30+ different MM type phono cartridges ( you can read in my virtual system which ones. ) and I’m still doing it. The purpose of this fact ( “ buy it “ ) is for one way to confirm or not if really those MM type cartridges are good for us ( music lovers ) and at the same time learn about MM vs MC cartridges, as a fact I learn many things other than MM/MC cartridge subject.

If we take a look to the Agon analog members at least 90% of them use ( only ) MC phono cartridges, if we take a look to the “ professional reviewers “ ( TAS, Stereophile, Positive Feedback, Enjoy the Music, etc, etc, ) 95% ( at least ) of them use only MC cartridges ( well I know that for example: REG and NG of TAS and RJR of Stereophile use only MM type cartridges!!!!!!!! ) , if we take a look to the phono cartridge manufacturers more than 90% of them build/design for MC cartridges and if you speak with audio dealers almost all will tell you that the MC cartridges is the way to go.

So, who are wrong/right, the few ( like me ) that speak that the MM type is a very good alternative or the “ whole “ cartridge industry that think and support the MC cartridge only valid alternative?

IMHO I think that both groups are not totally wrong/right and that the subject is not who is wrong/right but that the subject is : KNOW-HOW or NON KNOW-HOW about.

Many years ago when I was introduced to the “ high end “ the cartridges were almost MM type ones: Shure, Stanton, Pickering, Empire, etc, etc. In those time I remember that one dealer told me that if I really want to be nearest to the music I have to buy the Empire 4000 D ( they say for 4-channel reproduction as well. ) and this was truly my first encounter with a “ high end cartridge “, I buy the 4000D I for 70.00 dls ( I can’t pay 150.00 for the D III. ), btw the specs of these Empire cartridges were impressive even today, look: frequency response: 5-50,000Hz, channel separation: 35db, tracking force range: 0.25grs to 1.25grs!!!!!!!!, just impressive, but there are some cartridges which frequency response goes to 100,000Hz!!!!!!!!!!

I start to learn about and I follow to buying other MM type cartridges ( in those times I never imagine nothing about MC cartridges: I don’t imagine of its existence!!!. ) like AKG, Micro Acoustics, ADC, B&O, Audio Technica, Sonus, etc, etc.

Years latter the same dealer told me about the MC marvelous cartridges and he introduce me to the Denon-103 following with the 103-D and the Fulton High performance, so I start to buy and hear MC cartridges. I start to read audio magazines about either cartridge type: MM and Mc ones.

I have to make changes in my audio system ( because of the low output of the MC cartridges and because I was learning how to improve the performance of my audio system ) and I follow what the reviewers/audio dealers “ speak “ about, I was un-experienced !!!!!!!, I was learning ( well I’m yet. ).

I can tell you many good/bad histories about but I don’t want that the thread was/is boring for you, so please let me tell you what I learn and where I’m standing today about:

over the years I invested thousands of dollars on several top “ high end “ MC cartridges, from the Sumiko Celebration passing for Lyras, Koetsu, Van denHul, to Allaerts ones ( just name it and I can tell that I own or owned. ), what I already invest on MC cartridges represent almost 70-80% price of my audio system.

Suddenly I stop buying MC cartridges and decide to start again with some of the MM type cartridges that I already own and what I heard motivate me to start the search for more of those “ hidden jewels “ that are ( here and now ) the MM phono cartridges and learn why are so good and how to obtain its best quality sound reproduction ( as a fact I learn many things other than MM cartridge about. ).

I don’t start this “ finding “ like a contest between MC and MM type cartridges.
The MC cartridges are as good as we already know and this is not the subject here, the subject is about MM type quality performance and how achieve the best with those cartridges.

First than all I try to identify and understand the most important characteristics ( and what they “ means “. ) of the MM type cartridges ( something that in part I already have it because our phonolinepreamp design needs. ) and its differences with the MC ones.

Well, first than all is that are high output cartridges, very high compliance ones ( 50cu is not rare. ), low or very low tracking force ones, likes 47kOhms and up, susceptible to some capacitance changes, user stylus replacement, sometimes we can use a different replacement stylus making an improvement with out the necessity to buy the next top model in the cartridge line , low and very low weight cartridges, almost all of them are build of plastic material with aluminum cantilever and with eliptical or “ old “ line contact stylus ( shibata ) ( here we don’t find: Jade/Coral/Titanium/etc, bodies or sophisticated build material cantilevers and sophisticated stylus shape. ), very very… what I say? Extremely low prices from 40.00 to 300.00 dls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, well one of my cartridges I buy it for 8.99 dls ( one month ago ): WOW!!!!!!, so any one of you can/could have/buy ten to twenty MM cartridges for the price of one of the MC cartridge you own today and the good notice is that is a chance that those 10-20 MM type cartridges even the quality performance of your MC cartridge or beat it.

Other characteristics is that the builders show how proud they were/are on its MM type cartridges design, almost all those cartridges comes with a first rate box, comes with charts/diagrams of its frequency response and cartridge channel separation ( where they tell us which test recording use it, with which VTF, at which temperature, etc, etc. ), comes with a very wide explanation of the why’s and how’s of its design and the usual explanation to mount the cartridge along with a very wide list of specifications ( that were the envy of any of today MC ones where sometimes we really don’t know nothing about. ), comes with a set of screws/nuts, comes with a stylus brush and even with stylus cleaning fluid!!!!!!!!!, my GOD. Well, there are cartridges like the Supex SM 100MK2 that comes with two different stylus!!!! One with spherical and one with elliptical/shibata shape and dear friends all those in the same low low price!!!!!!!!!!!

Almost all the cartridges I own you can find it through Ebay and Agon and through cartridge dealers and don’t worry if you loose/broke the stylus cartridge or you find the cartridge but with out stylus, you always can/could find the stylus replacement, no problem about there are some stylus and cartridge sources.

When I’m talking about MM type cartridges I’m refer to different types: moving magnet, moving iron, moving flux, electret, variable reluctance, induced magnet, etc, etc. ( here is not the place to explain the differences on all those MM type cartridges. Maybe on other future thread. ).

I made all my very long ( time consuming ) cartridge tests using four different TT’s: Acoustic Signature Analog One MK2, Micro Seiki RX-5000, Luxman PD 310 and Technics SP-10 MK2, I use only removable headshell S and J shape tonearms with 15mm on overhang, I use different material build/ shape design /weight headshells. I test each cartridge in at least three different tonearms and some times in 3-4 different headshells till I find the “ right “ match where the cartridge perform the best, no I’m not saying that I already finish or that I already find the “ perfect “ match: cartridge/headshell/tonearm but I think I’m near that ideal target.

Through my testing experience I learn/ confirm that trying to find the right tonearm/headshell for any cartridge is well worth the effort and more important that be changing the TT. When I switch from a TT to another different one the changes on the quality cartridge performance were/are minimal in comparison to a change in the tonearm/headshell, this fact was consistent with any of those cartridges including MC ones.

So after the Phonolinepreamplifier IMHO the tonearm/headshell match for any cartridge is the more important subject, it is so important and complex that in the same tonearm ( with the same headshell wires ) but with different headshell ( even when the headshell weight were the same ) shape or build material headshell the quality cartridge performance can/could be way different.

All those experiences told me that chances are that the cartridge that you own ( MC or MM ) is not performing at its best because chances are that the tonearm you own is not the best match for that cartridge!!!!!!, so imagine what do you can/could hear when your cartridge is or will be on the right tonearm???!!!!!!!!, IMHO there are ( till today ) no single ( any type at any price ) perfect universal tonearm. IMHO there is no “ the best tonearm “, what exist or could exist is a “ best tonearm match for “ that “ cartridge “, but that’s all. Of course that are “ lucky “ tonearms that are very good match for more than one cartridge but don’t for every single cartridge.

I posted several times that I’m not a tonearm collector, that I own all those tonearms to have alternatives for my cartridges and with removable headshells my 15 tonearms are really like 100+ tonearms : a very wide options/alternatives for almost any cartridge!!!!!!

You can find several of these MM type cartridges new brand or NOS like: Ortofon, Nagaoka, Audio Technica, Astatic, B&O, Rega, Empire, Sonus Reson,Goldring,Clearaudio, Grado, Shelter, Garrot, etc. and all of them second hand in very good operational condition. As a fact I buy two and even three cartridges of the same model in some of the cartridges ( so right now I have some samples that I think I don’t use any more. ) to prevent that one of them arrive in non operational condition but I’m glad to say that all them arrive in very fine conditions. I buy one or two of the cartridges with no stylus or with the stylus out of work but I don’t have any trouble because I could find the stylus replacement on different sources and in some case the original new replacement.

All these buy/find cartridges was very time consuming and we have to have a lot of patience and a little lucky to obtain what we are looking for but I can asure you that is worth of it.

Ok, I think it is time to share my performance cartridge findings:

first we have to have a Phonolinepreamplifier with a very good MM phono stage ( at least at the same level that the MC stage. ). I’m lucky because my Phonolinepreamplifier has two independent phono stages, one for the MM and one for MC: both were designed for the specifics needs of each cartridge type, MM or MC that have different needs.

we need a decent TT and decent tonearm.

we have to load the MM cartridges not at 47K but at 100K ( at least 75K not less. ).

I find that using 47K ( a standard manufacture recommendation ) prevent to obtain the best quality performance, 100K make the difference. I try this with all those MM type cartridges and in all of them I achieve the best performance with 100K load impedance.

I find too that using the manufacturer capacitance advise not always is for the better, till “ the end of the day “ I find that between 100-150pf ( total capacitance including cable capacitance. ) all the cartridges performs at its best.

I start to change the load impedance on MM cartridges like a synonymous that what many of us made with MC cartridges where we try with different load impedance values, latter I read on the Empire 4000 DIII that the precise load impedance must be 100kOhms and in a white paper of some Grace F9 tests the used impedance value was 100kOhms, the same that I read on other operational MM cartridge manual and my ears tell/told me that 100kOhms is “ the value “.

Before I go on I want to remember you that several of those MM type cartridges ( almost all ) were build more than 30+ years ago!!!!!!!! and today performs at the same top quality level than today MC/MM top quality cartridges!!!!!, any brand at any price and in some ways beat it.

I use 4-5 recordings that I know very well and that give me the right answers to know that any cartridge is performing at its best or near it. Many times what I heard through those recordings were fine: everything were on target however the music don’t come “ alive “ don’t “ tell me “ nothing, I was not feeling the emotion that the music can communicate. In those cartridge cases I have to try it in other tonearm and/or with a different headshell till the “ feelings comes “ and only when this was achieved I then was satisfied.

All the tests were made with a volume level ( SPL ) where the recording “ shines “ and comes alive like in a live event. Sometimes changing the volume level by 1-1.5 db fixed everything.

Of course that the people that in a regular manner attend to hear/heard live music it will be more easy to know when something is right or wrong.

Well, Raul go on!!: one characteristic on the MM cartridges set-up was that almost all them likes to ride with a positive ( little/small ) VTA only the Grace Ruby and F9E and Sonus Gold Blue likes a negative VTA , on the other hand with the Nagaoka MP 50 Super and the Ortofon’s I use a flat VTA.

Regarding the VTF I use the manufacturer advise and sometimes 0.1+grs.
Of course that I made fine tuning through moderate changes in the Azymuth and for anti-skate I use between half/third VTF value.

I use different material build headshells: aluminum, composite aluminum, magnesium, composite magnesium, ceramic, wood and non magnetic stainless steel, these cartridges comes from Audio Technica, Denon, SAEC, Technics, Fidelity Research, Belldream, Grace, Nagaoka, Koetsu, Dynavector and Audiocraft.
All of them but the wood made ( the wood does not likes to any cartridge. ) very good job . It is here where a cartridge could seems good or very good depending of the headshell where is mounted and the tonearm.
Example, I have hard time with some of those cartridge like the Audio Technica AT 20SS where its performance was on the bright sound that sometimes was harsh till I find that the ceramic headshell was/is the right match now this cartridge perform beautiful, something similar happen with the Nagaoka ( Jeweltone in Japan ), Shelter , Grace, Garrot , AKG and B&O but when were mounted in the right headshell/tonearm all them performs great.

Other things that you have to know: I use two different cooper headshell wires, both very neutral and with similar “ sound “ and I use three different phono cables, all three very neutral too with some differences on the sound performance but nothing that “ makes the difference “ on the quality sound of any of my cartridges, either MM or MC, btw I know extremely well those phono cables: Analysis Plus, Harmonic Technologies and Kimber Kable ( all three the silver models. ), finally and don’t less important is that those phono cables were wired in balanced way to take advantage of my Phonolinepreamp fully balanced design.

What do you note the first time you put your MM cartridge on the record?, well a total absence of noise/hum or the like that you have through your MC cartridges ( and that is not a cartridge problem but a Phonolinepreamp problem due to the low output of the MC cartridges. ), a dead silent black ( beautiful ) soundstage where appear the MUSIC performance, this experience alone is worth it.

The second and maybe the most important MM cartridge characteristic is that you hear/heard the MUSIC flow/run extremely “ easy “ with no distracting sound distortions/artifacts ( I can’t explain exactly this very important subject but it is wonderful ) even you can hear/heard “ sounds/notes “ that you never before heard it and you even don’t know exist on the recording: what a experience!!!!!!!!!!!

IMHO I think that the MUSIC run so easily through a MM cartridge due ( between other facts ) to its very high compliance characteristic on almost any MM cartridge.

This very high compliance permit ( between other things like be less sensitive to out-center hole records. ) to these cartridges stay always in contact with the groove and never loose that groove contact not even on the grooves that were recorded at very high velocity, something that a low/medium cartridge compliance can’t achieve, due to this low/medium compliance characteristic the MC cartridges loose ( time to time and depending of the recorded velocity ) groove contact ( minute extremely minute loose contact, but exist. ) and the quality sound performance suffer about and we can hear it, the same pass with the MC cartridges when are playing the inner grooves on a record instead the very high compliance MM cartridges because has better tracking drive perform better than the MC ones at inner record grooves and here too we can hear it.

Btw, some Agoners ask very worried ( on more than one Agon thread ) that its cartridge can’t track ( clean ) the cannons on the 1812 Telarc recording and usually the answers that different people posted were something like this: “””” don’t worry about other than that Telarc recording no other commercial recording comes recorded at that so high velocity, if you don’t have trouble with other of your LP’s then stay calm. “””””

Well, this standard answer have some “ sense “ but the people ( like me ) that already has/have the experience to hear/heard a MM or MC ( like the Ortofon MC 2000 or the Denon DS1, high compliance Mc cartridges. ) cartridge that pass easily the 1812 Telarc test can tell us that those cartridges make a huge difference in the quality sound reproduction of any “ normal “ recording, so it is more important that what we think to have a better cartridge tracking groove drive!!!!

There are many facts around the MM cartridge subject but till we try it in the right set-up it will be ( for some people ) difficult to understand “ those beauties “. Something that I admire on the MM cartridges is how ( almost all of them ) they handle the frequency extremes: the low bass with the right pitch/heft/tight/vivid with no colorations of the kind “ organic !!” that many non know-how people speak about, the highs neutral/open/transparent/airy believable like the live music, these frequency extremes handle make that the MUSIC flow in our minds to wake up our feelings/emotions that at “ the end of the day “ is all what a music lover is looking for.
These not means that these cartridges don’t shine on the midrange because they do too and they have very good soundstage but here is more system/room dependent.

Well we have a very good alternative on the ( very low price ) MM type cartridges to achieve that music target and I’m not saying that you change your MC cartridge for a MM one: NO, what I’m trying to tell you is that it is worth to have ( as many you can buy/find ) the MM type cartridges along your MC ones

I want to tell you that I can live happy with any of those MM cartridges and I’m not saying with this that all of them perform at the same quality level NO!! what I’m saying is that all of them are very good performers, all of them approach you nearest to the music.

If you ask me which one is the best I can tell you that this will be a very hard “ call “ an almost impossible to decide, I think that I can make a difference between the very good ones and the stellar ones where IMHO the next cartridges belongs to this group:

Audio Technica ATML 170 and 180 OCC, Grado The Amber Tribute, Grace Ruby, Garrot P77, Nagaoka MP-50 Super, B&O MMC2 and MMC20CL, AKG P8ES SuperNova, Reson Reca ,Astatic MF-100 and Stanton LZS 981.

There are other ones that are really near this group: ADC Astrion, Supex MF-100 MK2, Micro Acoustics MA630/830, Empire 750 LTD and 600LAC, Sonus Dimension 5, Astatic MF-200 and 300 and the Acutex 320III.

The other ones are very good too but less refined ones.
I try too ( owned or borrowed for a friend ) the Shure IV and VMR, Music maker 2-3 and Clearaudio Virtuoso/Maestro, from these I could recommended only the Clearaudios the Shure’s and Music Maker are almost mediocre ones performers.
I forgot I try to the B&O Soundsmith versions, well this cartridges are good but are different from the original B&O ( that I prefer. ) due that the Sounsmith ones use ruby cantilevers instead the original B&O sapphire ones that for what I tested sounds more natural and less hi-fi like the ruby ones.

What I learn other that the importance on the quality sound reproduction through MM type cartridges?, well that unfortunately the advance in the design looking for a better quality cartridge performers advance almost nothing either on MM and MC cartridges.

Yes, today we have different/advanced body cartridge materials, different cantilever build materials, different stylus shape/profile, different, different,,,,different, but the quality sound reproduction is almost the same with cartridges build 30+ years ago and this is a fact. The same occur with TT’s and tonearms. Is sad to speak in this way but it is what we have today. Please, I’m not saying that some cartridges designs don’t grow up because they did it, example: Koetsu they today Koetsu’s are better performers that the old ones but against other cartridges the Koetsu ones don’t advance and many old and today cartridges MM/MC beat them easily.

Where I think the audio industry grow-up for the better are in electronic audio items ( like the Phonolinepreamps ), speakers and room treatment, but this is only my HO.

I know that there are many things that I forgot and many other things that we have to think about but what you can read here is IMHO a good point to start.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
rauliruegas

Showing 50 responses by griffithds

Raul,

I know your plate is full but you do need to find time to mount the DTL-4S.

Quote from TurntableNeedles.com "• very close to PICKERING NEEDLES D4500S D7500S STEREOHEDRON STEREO HEDRON"

It did take a while for the suspension to settle, but I do agree with their statement. In addition to the TL-3 body, it also sounds just as wonderful on a gold body XV-15.
Regards,
Don


Dear Comrade,

IIRC, you also have one of Axel's AKG P 8ES Super Nova Vhd's. I don't feel it has taken over the top spot in my arsenal but it definitely runs with the pack. I just replaced the Azden YM P50VL on my table with the AKG and once again, I'm quite impressed. I don't recall you ever mentioning your opinion of how it performs. I must say, I do like mine. What is your thoughts ref. the AKG.
Regards,
Don
Lewm,

"Raul not only lets cats out of bags regularly, he also farms kittens."

Well put!

Regards,
Don
Raul,

"Now, the Ortofon MC2000 and Dyna 13D belongs to the NCG but the Astatic and the Virtuoso NO"

I thought I understood your NCG/PCG definitions but with your statement of the Virtuoso as not being NCG, now I'm confused? It is still in production. What is "it" that makes it a PCG?
BTW, what is the difference b/t the Percept 220 and a Percept 220XE?
Regards,
Don
Raul,

I have a spec. sheet that compares the Precept 110 to the 220 and 440. The 110 has an output of 4.6, both the 220 and the 440 are stated at 4.2. This is at 5 cm/sec.
I've tried to copy and paste this hear but it wont copy and paste. I could forward the email to you if I had your email address.
Regards,
Don
Raul,
Spec. sheet sent. Let me know if it arrived. It seems to be a picture therefore I can't copy and paste to this site.
Not really sure but I tried many times using different methods. If you did receive it Raul, and there are others that want it (Nandric), I would be more that happy to send it to them if they provide their e/mail. If you can figure out a way to post it here, that would be even better.
Regards,
Don
Fleib,

I believe the U on AT cartridges means "P" mount. That also might be why most of us has never heard to that model.
Regards,
Don
Hi Dgob,

Your 420STR. Is it the LPM 420STR? If so, what stylus/cantilever did you have Axel install.
Regards,
Don
Raul,
Is the LC stylus on the Precept 440 a proprietary Audio Technica design item therefor not available thru other re-tippers? I ask because I have a 220 stylus housing in need of a new cantilever and stylus and I am thinking about sending it off to Axel for a beryllium/LC replacement. I did get in on the buying frenzy for the 550ML and I must admit, the 220 body with the 550ML stylus is something that just must be experienced. It draws you in and makes you just listen. Great and unexpected find. Much thanks!
Regards,
Don
Grbluen2

"Wouldn't it be great if the moderators simply redacted any post(s) that didn't meet their unusually high standards. I feel like I'm in freakin' China."

I feel your pain! Sometimes it gets hard to follow the conversations when there are 10 various posts between question and answer of one topic.
Regards
Don
Raul,

"I wonder why no one of you speak in deep about this " finding . maybe I'm very a faster gunman than you."

The ad stated, Does not ship to the United States so a lot of us were out of the gun fight.

Regards,
Don
Professor,
I, like you, am also quite frustrated with the moderator of this forum. I know the location of a Pecept 220 (cheap), but can't get its location posted so someone on this forum might score. I've also had posts take days to show up.
Perhaps they feel this forum has run long enough?
Lewm,
I run my AT20SS on a 20SLa body. I also have a 15Sa and have used the 20SS on it also with great results. Do I hear a difference. Well, were back to splitting fine hairs again. I am currently using the 20SLA on a Signet 7SU. I'm having trouble convincing myself that it can't be better than my Signet TK 7CLa (Timetel), but ???
Your 12Sa I don't think is an option for a 20SS stylus. I don't have one but a few of my dead brain cells seems to recall the 2 weren't compatible.
Regards,
Don
Dear Comrade,

Yes, it appears you have scored big time in this capitalist society. $200 for a beryllium cantilever is just about 1/2 what having a retipper would charge for it. The 20SLa is very special!
Regards,
Don
Dear Comrade,
I have the Precept 220/550ML and have no reason to bid on the 440LC unless it is your wish I do so for you. I have had it on my watch list for quite some time. I seem to like fighting temptation. My email address is griffithds@jaws.bz. Let me know what your top $ bid would be and I'll do my best to get it for you. From the ad, the seller is not sure it the cantilever/stylus is complete and the pictures are not clear so you might be bidding on a cartridge that needs a cantilever/stylus replacement. I find it dificult to understand how someone who knows what a stylus is, can state he can't tell it this one has a stylus?
Regards Comrade,
Don

Regards Comrade
Harold,

I had my eye on that auction. I had a feeling someone from this forum would get it. Had it not begun to run up in price and the very end, I would have bid. I'm glad someone won it who would actually use it, and not bought only for resale.
Concrat"s.
Regards,
Don
Comrade,
Your quote:
"I just listened again to my Goldring 800 and asked myself: why should anybody NEED a 'better' cart?"

I have also wonder the same thing about it. I also as you know, have a Goldring G800. I refer to it as a G800A because it has Axel's amazing work performed on it. It's to bad that "want" has to rear its ugly head! Sometimes I think I'm just burning money!
Regards,
Don
Raul,

Do you by any chance keep notes on the cartridges you audition? I ask because I have picked up a Mission Solitaire. I had/have it on my try to find list in which I have gleaned from this forum over the years. I can't get over how much it reminds me of my Garrott Bros. P77. I did a Audiogon forum search but turned up nothing. Not sure if I remember the correct search protocol but anyway for $45 and free shipping, quite a find!
Regards,
Don
Well Harold-Not-the-Barrel,

I guess now we all have to delete the JVC watch item from our eBay site. Or is this some evil ploy of yours to get the rest of us to drop out???? Ha Ha Ha, we're on to you!

Regards,
Don
Indieroehre,

While on the Vinylenginge web site, also look up Astatic MF 200 instruction/owner manual download. You might laugh when you start to read and notice the wording and pictures in the Astatic manual is the same as what is in the Glanz manual that you just read. Do yourself a favor and get the MF 300. Put your stylus on it and just enjoy the fact your Glanz is back!
Regards,
Don
I think we all have hit upon why there is so many different opinions about what a piece of equipment sounds like. Lets take for instants a phono cartridge that has a slight rising mid range frequency. You give that phono cartridge to someone my age, let just say I'm a senior, who had a reduction in hearing in those same frequencies, well that person might just think that the cartridge he is listening to happens to have a very flat response. One persons speakers might sound bright to him, but rolled off to someone else. Think about how many Audio Technica cartridges that have been sold. There are people who refuse to own a Audio Technica because they are so bright. Do the rest of us just like pain?
What I've said might be a little over stated, but think of it in much smaller incremental differences. We all have taste buds in our mouths to savor different flavors of food. If these buds were all the same, everyone would either love brussel sprouts or everyone would hate them. Take the Signet TK7's. It is obvious that we all don't hear that cartridge the same. Raul refers to it as distortions that are liked by some or disliked by others. I think it's more than that. I think different people actually just HEAR that cartridge differently! I like all Signets. I even like the AT440MLa!
Regards,
Don
Nandric,
You are a good and thoughtful comrade. You did not reveal my soon to acquire styli source so you are still held in high regard. I will know soon if I am rewarded with riches.
If I do, I will contact Indieroehre.
Regards
Don
Indieroehre,

There is a Astatic MF300 up for bid on ebay. It is my understanding that the Glanz and the Astatic line of cartridges were the same. It sounds like from your description, that you have a good stylus but need a body. With the 300 body,you will give up a couple of db's of separation which I doubt you would even notice. Other than that, the spec. sheet for the entire line of Glanz (or Astatic), is the same. This statement is based on page 11 & 12 (specification pages), of the manual that can be found on Vinylengine, Glanz MF Series instruction/owners manual download.
Regards,
Don
Indieroehre,

There is only one bid on the Glanz. I will assume that the bid is yours. I do not want to tell you how to bid, but I will say this, ask yourself "just how bad" to you want that Glanz. Then enter your highest bid amount accordingly.
Regards, and good luck!
Don
Hi Mike,

Let me be the first to welcome you to the club. If it's in as good of shape as he said, then you got a hell of a bargain. I was surprised it went that cheap. I guess with it being Easter, people are not paying attention. You will find it hard to rotate out of circulation once you have spent some time with it.
Regards and enjoy!
Don
Mission Solitaire, (Raul, per your request)

I scored 2 cartridges that week. The Mission Solitaire ($45), and a Nagaoka MP11 Boron ($41). There is know doubt, the Nagaoka is a winner! The Mission, well, I'm not so sure.
First, I also own the Garrott P77, the Grace F9e and the Jico SAS stylus that you (Raul), mentioned in your post above. The Jico SAS does fit into the Grace but the shaft is too long. Almost double in length when compared to the Grace. It is also too long for the Mission in addition to being to big in diameter. But in the Garrott, well both fit and performance are amazing. Transforms the Garrott into what reminds me of the AT 155LC.
As far as the Mission Solitaire, I ended up setting the tracking force at 1.9 grams with the VTA flat. I know absolutely nothing about the Mission Solitaire, so everything I will say will be based only on what I'm hearing. It seems to be a great tracker, with no problem with the dreaded "sssss" or inner groove distortions. What brothers me is that the sparkle seems to be gone from all performances. The high frequencies are there but the sparkling overtones are not. I tried it in both my main full range floor standing speakers and my mini-monitors, with and without the sub. I was not that fond of the Mission in the main system. The cartridge came across as if I had an equalizer in the system and had applied a little bass boost while also rolling off the upper frequencies. The cartridge sounded best with the mini-monitors (without the sub woofer), even though it still had the rolled off sparkle of the high frequencies. It was a more balance sound with the roll off being at both extremes. If I had to compare it to some other cartridge, it would be a Shure M91ED, or even a Denon 103R. Just a good middle of the road cartridge. The words "work horse" comes to mind. It does have great pace and rhythm though (that boogie factor). I wondered if perhaps the real problem isn't with this cartridge, but just that I have spent to much time lately with really great cartridges . The Precept 220/550ML, the ADC ZLM, AT180ooc, Signet TK10ML, Technics U205C MK4. The Mission Solitaire just isn't at that level. After spending some time listening to several records, it really does start to sound good though. It kind of grows on you. It's all what you get use to I guess.
I know I have used the word rolled-off but in addition, there's more to it than that. It's more in line with what you would hear with the Denon 103's. The Denon's conical stylus glosses over the high fequencies thereby eliminating some of that sparkle.
Considering the performance level that I had been comparing the Mission to, I decided to un-mount 3 of the 5 cartridges (I only have 5 arm wands), and in their place, mount a Pickering XV-15/750E, a Ortofon OM20 super, and a Grado G1+/8MZ. I wanted to see how the Mission would compare at this lower performance level.
I was rather surprised at how similar the Mission sounds to them from about mid-range down. Going the other way, mid-range thou the high frequencies, the Mission just falls flat. There seems to be a gentle slope from about 10K all the way out to what ever. It's just not as refined/detailed as the Ortofon, Pickering, or the Grado. So where does that leave the Mission Solitaire? If I had to rate the last four cartridges in a 1 to 4 comparison, it would be 1) the Pickering, 2) the Ortofon, 3) the Grado, and 4) the Mission Solitaire. I detect slight mid-range distortion (lack of clarity), with the Mission that is just not there with the other 3 cartridges. I'm not talking about tracking distortions, but distortions of resolution. I thought it just might be a worn stylus on the Mission, I did spend some time looking at its stylus under a hand held 60X microscope. At that level, I could see nothing that would make me suspect a worn stylus. The stylus was quite clean, the cantilever was straight, and the suspension is in excellent shape. The other 3 are known to have low hour usage, so given the condition of the stylus and the suspension, leads me to believe perhaps low hours are also on the Mission. The cartridge strikes me as a above average entry level cartridge rather than a mid-level cartridge in need of a stylus replacement. I then went looking in my arsenal for something even of a lower performance level. What I found was the ADC QLM 32 MKIII. After comparing those two, well, the Mission still comes in 2nd place.
The Mission Solitaire is a great cartridge for what I paid for it ($45), but I doubt if it will ever find its way back mounted on one of my arm wands. I own far to many other cartridges that I would rather spend time with. This is one of those cartridges that's from our past, and should remain there!
Regards,
Don
Hello Tom,

Your post to Stltrains (our latest CLa member), asking for it's SS# got me off my butt to look at mine.
It is SS# 306.

Regards,
Don
Raul,

Your statement "Welcome Nagaoka again!", got me thinking about all the great cartridges that we have reviewed and no longer discuss. When reading my discussion of the Mission Solitaire, you will recall that I dismounted 3 cartridges of the 5 I had mounted on tone arm wands. The decision of the 3 wasn't just a random pick. One of the 2 remaining that I subconsciously didn't want to remove from use was the Adzen YM-P50VL.
Raul, if you want to revisit some of the past champions of this forum, I would highly urge you to remount this gem. Difficult to get correctly set up but when it is, WOW!
Regards,
Don
To All,

"By the time this gets posted, the cartridge will already be on its way."

I was wrong! It will ship tomorrow.
I guess miracles do happen!

Regards,
Don
Acman3,

I am still at a loss as to what is meant by "miscommunication"
Exactly what "did" happen that created this mess!
Regards,
Don
Jmowbray,

I am finding that when I remount these after they have been sitting around/stored for awhile, that they need to have some time of playing before the suspension loosens up and settles down before they start to sound their best. I had originally thought this only applied to our old M/M's. I have recently remounted my London "Decca" Jubilee, a cartridge which in currently being manufactured, and found I had to do this re break-in to get it to sound as I had remembered it. Your Azden might sound thin and bright upon first listen. Give it a few records before you make your judgments as to "how far you've come (or not)."
Regards and have fun
Don
Banquo363,

How about just give you the answers to the next test!
No testable hypotheses or review of anything required that way!
Hi Lewm,

Yes, I have read Mr. Ellison's post on Vinyl Asylum.
Graphs make great talking points, but I don't listen with graphs! He does make valid points based on the models he has conveniently chosen. I'm sure others could, and have chosen other models to convey different opinions. Everyone has opinions. His is just one of them!
I do not believe that there is a MM/MI cartridge that is better than "any" MC ever produced. But that doesn't mean there can't be! This industry is and will continue to be driven by profits and there is a lot more profits in selling something for $10,000 than selling something for $150, so I'm not holding my breath. By all rights, dragging a pointed object through a peace of plastic shouldn't be able to produce music, but low and behold, sitting before me proves that concept false. No graphs required!

Regards,
Don
Hi Tim,

I forgot you lurk around here from time to time.
Yes, It sort of was an inside joke when thing got a little hairy and you are correct. I can hear just as plain as day, Jerry saying just that with that sly grin he had. Those were some good times we had.
Hope thing are well in your part of the world
Best of Regards,
Don
I just ran across an ad for a Signet AT ART-1. I had completely forgotten about this cartridge. I remember it was highly thought of during its existence with some claiming it was the best cartridge ever produced. Doe anyone have one of these in there arsenal? If so, how about dragging it out and give it a listen, then post your impressions.
Regards,
Fleib, and Lew,

"pissing in the wind"

Now there's a graph I would like to see! (grin)

Regards,
Don
Lewm,

There is an old saying in engineering that seems to apply with what has been brought forth through JE's comments. It goes like this,
"If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, then baffle them with bullshit".

Have a great day!
Lewm,

Perhaps I'm not grasping a full understanding of the statements presented by JE? But then again, as you made quite clear,

"his graph for the MC cartridge assumes a 1M load resistor, i.e., no load. No one does that."

He has "created" data to back up his opinion!

Do I need to retype my dazzle/baffle statement?

Regards,
Don
Dgob,

There have been 3 cartridges in my life that absolutely stunned me because of their remarkable performance. The 1st was a Nagaoka MP50 Super. A Sapphire tube cantilever with a solid nude shank diamond stylus. The 2nd one was a Goldring G800 that Axel decided to installed a beryllium cantilever with a shibata tip. Shocked at the difference that one made. The 3rd is this Glanz MFG 21TL. Several of my well though of cartridges just took a giant step down the ladder!
Regards,
Don
My Dear Comrade,

What have I done! I have allowed the pride of my capitalist greed slip through my hands and take up residency in the Balkins. How could I have been so foolish. (grin)
Do not worry my dear friend, because if the need arises, I do know where another can be obtained.
Enjoy Nikola. The combination truly is a giant slayer!

Best Regards,
Don
Tubed1,

Sounds like something well worth the effort. I have the short nosed M312STR. I will definitely give this a go. Thanks for the Mod effort and the write-up. That's what is great about this forum. A person can learn so much just through sharing ideals. Thanks again!
Regards,
Don
Fleib,

I did not had it in my possession long enough to see the comments you and Nikola have stated. I sent it off to him after a short time in my system. It was not even broken in when he received to for an audition.I do intend to spend some time with it under a scope when it returns. Bottom line is it doesn't measure up sound wise. The Akai RS180 stylus really does put it to shame with is sonic display. I have done a lot of business with LPGear and have never been disappointed with anything bought from them (until now). I do intend to run my Precept with the Akai. Something else I would like to add about this Precept discussion. I bought 2 of the Akai RS180's to transplant into the Signet TK7SU stylus housing. Because 1 was a spare, I decided to slightly trim it and try it on the Precept 220 body. At that time I didn't have a stylus for the Precept. I was all smiles with the results. That is when Raul stated where a 550ML could be purchased, so I jumped on it. When I sent all to Nikola for review, I knew at that time the 550ML was not out performing the Akai. I just assumed it was because the suspension on the Akai had days of use while the Precept only had minutes. I am looking forward to the return of the 550ML. Talking to anyone at LPGear is rather difficult but I do have question of them to ask!
Since this revelation, I have also tried a AT20SLa on the Precept. Surprisingly the results with it are also not positive? A little thin sounding. A bit like what I remember the 550ML sounded like. It (the SLa), performs beautifully in the TK7SU. I think I will leave it there. Go figure?
Regards,
Don
Nikola,

Since you are probably the only person in the world who has a (suspect)550ML stylus housing and an original 220 stylus housing, perhaps you could do me a favor. Could you look very carefully at the two of them and determine (other than color), if they are the same housing or does one housing look like a cheap imitation of the other. Thanks Comrade.
Regards,
Don
Comrade,

So very kind of you to protect me and look after my wallet, but I already have someone who does that. I sleep with her every night. (grin)
Acman3

I have ordered another Akai from TTN. Price $139 then minus purchase bonus points that I had accumulated, dropped it down to $89. Knowing how good it is, and how supplies suddenly disappear, it is hard not to order spares!
Flieb,
Yes, I own 2 of the 20SS styli. One of them is on the 20SLa body that came with the 20SLa stylus I have mentioned in my discussions of the TK7SU. Flieb, I like options, lots of options. And yes, I do need to thin the heard, a lot!
Raul,

Their response has not made me as optimistic as you in reference to any action they may take. It, from what you have stated (in Part), is actually a denial of the possibility of it being a fake. Their comment that beryllium looks like Aluminum baffles me?
Good luck and Regards,
Don
Flieb,

I think you just might be on to something with your comments pertaining to the mis-identified PCN100. Nikola has sent me a photo of the cantilever of my 550ML. The way it is built sure looks like a Audio Technica manufacture, right down to the donut material. But the cantilever, sure looks like alum.
Perhaps a PCN100 cantilever/stylus mounted in a PCN550ML housing. Pure Audio Technica, just a mistake. An expensive one for those of us that bought it!
As far as the TTN waiting list, well, every stylus/cartride that they have sold out of, has a waiting list if you chose to get on it. Chances are you are just wasting your time. But if by some miracle, a lost stash is found, those on that list would be offered the item first. So, it all comes down to whether you are an optimist, or a pessimist?
BTW. A few weeks ago, I bought a ATS14 from Stereoneedles and did receive a nude version. Does not appear to be of the quality of the Akai. Because of this fact, I ordered the Akai from TTN. They might sound the same? That is something I will discover next week!
Raul,

I have also (as Fleib has), tried to contact LPGear with no luck in the past. That was in regards to something I wanted to purchase from them. No reply!
The quick response that you received, makes me wonder if there is something that they are not revealing? Why were they so quick to reply? Are they getting complaints from others?
This whole thing is starting to smell.
Regards,
Don
Does anyone know for sure if all the AT20 cantilevers were Beryllium? The AT 20SL, 20SLa, the 20SS and what ever other 20 there might have been? To many errors in data base to trust what's read there.