Raul,
I own both the 981s. The LZS and the HZS. I also own the Stanton Epoch II LZ8S. It's also a contender. I only have 1 D98s styli. It came mounted on the NOS LZS. I bought a D3500E styli (XSV) and mounted "it" on the HZS. I must admit, I have never tried the D98s styli on the HZS. Your findings have got me thinking. Your calibrated numbers compared to the published numbers are kind of surprising. I need to look at mine. After hearing the 981s, and owning a 881s many years ago, I do agree with you. No comparison between the two. Not even close. Regards, Don |
Dear Acman3,
"Or do I tell my daughter at college to get a job and buy both?"
You have answered your own question! |
To All,
Before anyone misunderstands, the TL4S that Tom (timeltel), and I have been talking about is a M/M type stylus. That means 880/881s and above line of cartridges. Anything below, XV15, 680/681 are M/I. THEY ARE NOT INERCHANGABLE! I would hate to have someone with a 681EEES buy a TL4S, on our recommendation, only to discover it doesn't work! Regards, Don |
To those interested, An old thread pertaining to Stanton/Pickering. Alot of useful information for the uninformed. For others, well, a refresher.
http://forums.audioreview.com/analog-room/stanton-881s-stylus-replacement-new-cartridge-28162.html
Regards, Don |
Lewm,
I have in both of my posts to you, forgot to mention how lucky I feel you are in owning a XSV7500. You are living in rarified air territory with that one.
Regards, Don |
Timeltel and fellow Stanton/Pickering friends,
Hi Tom. As usual, your post are an absolute encyclopedia of information. I had to reread twice to absorb everything you provided. Your gift is much appreciated.
"The TL4S is a P-mount design, styli should be compatible with your Stanton carts."
My "resources" confirm you are correct. I hope someone in need of a replacement styli picks one up and enlightens the rest of us. Could be that non-available Stantering replacement stylus we have all been looking for! Take care my friend, Don |
Raul,
I did see the "315 flat nose" listing but because I already have a "312 flat nose" on its way to Axel for upgrades, I passed. You did get quite a deal on it as far as price! What do you intend doing with the "315"? Perhaps also sending it off to Axel. Regards, Don |
Tom,
"Just a thought." Yea, and a very good one! Thanks to both you and Fleib. I'm not interested in having someone else change the Virtuoso. I wanted to do this myself. Yea, a fool and his money are soon parted but sometimes that's how we learn. Asking questions and having people like you two also contributes. Thanks. Regards, Don |
Travbow,
Your cartridge may not be at the Post Office. Perhaps the tracking hasn't been updated. I've lost count of how many items showed held up in Flordia, or New York etc. yet got delivered to me that very afternoon hear in Boise Idaho. Just the fact that your item "IS" in Axels hometown should be conforting. It could have been lost somewhere in transit. Regards, Don |
Timeltel,
Hi Tom. Your imput ref. (the Pickering DTL-4S), got me looking around. I picked one up at Turntables.com for list $184. Cashed in $70 worth of gift certificates and so the total paid was $114. 5/7 days shipping so I'll post my findings next week. Just under the 12/22 deadline! Regards, Don |
Lewm,
I have seen the "1's", the "2's" and the "3's" for sale on ebay but never have I seen a "4". I own a 981LZS and a 981HZS. I thought this DTL-4S just might be a nice addition to go with either of the 981 bodies. I have been for many years a Stanton/Pickering fan. Had a 881S back in the "70s". Turntable was a Philips GA312. There was/is a lot more for that cartridge to give than what that table was able to provide. Great T/T though. I still have it and do use it ocasionally. Current cartridge on it is a Empire 2000E with a LPGear 4000DIII stylus. Regards Don |
Tom,
Just received a reply from Turntableneedles.com. It was a confirmed NOS Stereohedron styli. Still waiting for PickeringUKs reply.
Regards, Don |
Tom and all interested. The folowing is my question and the reply from PickeringUK.
__________________________________________________ Reply: Stereohedron is Pickering's name for their line contact tips.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: griffithds@jaws.bz To: eSales@PickeringUK.com Subject: Stylus question Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2012
Good Morning, You have a DTL-4S for sale stated as a line contact. I have a original Pickering DTL-4S that is a Stereohedron. Is the difference between the two styli a matter of mine is from New York plant and yours is from the Flordia plant? If there is some other reason (unnown to me), for the two styli profiles, both being a DTL-4S. Thank you for your reply in advance. Regards, Don Griffith ____________________________________________________
First time I have ever heard of a Stereohedron refered to as another name for line contact! Shibata, yes, but line contact? |
Good Morning Tom,
I have sent an email to PickeringUK asking them about that very question. I have bought several stylus's from Turntableneedle.com and know them to be a very reputable supplier. I am confident that what I'm about to receive from them will actually be an original Pickering styli. I'm wondering if when Pickering/Stanton moved from New York to Florida, if they started replacing the "Sterohedron" with a "line contact"? It would have been a lot easier to obtain. I'm reminded of the fact that their move to Florida was a cost cutting move. One more point to conceder. There is no mention of a line contact stylus in Richard Steinfelds handbook. His publication follows Stanton/Pickering cartridge/styli manufacturing during the "Golden age of analog". This would be up to but not after the Florida move. I am not doubting PickeringUK statements about selling original Pickering styli. But I'm beginning to think that a lot of what's being sold by PickeringUK was manufactured after the Florida move. When Stanton/Pickering went "disco". Regards, Don |
Raul,
Do you know how to correct data on the Vinyl Engine Cartridge Database? It states all Pickering TL-(x) cartridges are M/M. Lets not allow history to repeat itself! Regards, Don |
Correction: Statement I made on 12/10/12
"Before anyone misunderstands, the TL4S that Tom (timeltel), and I have been talking about is a M/M type stylus. That means 880/881s and above line of cartridges. Anything below, XV15, 680/681 are M/I. I would hate to have someone with a 681EEES buy a TL4S, on our recommendation, only to discover it doesn't work!"
The TL4S is NOT a M/M. It is a M/I. It will NOT work on the 880/881 and above. Anything below that line of cartridges, the XV15, 680/681 is acceptable. Just the opposite of what I stated. My deepest apppolgies to all for my mistake! I received the TL4S today and mounted it on a HLZ body. Dead quite. Nothing. That's when I started to compare my notes with Richards "Stanton/Pickering handbook" and discovered my notes were not correct. I then mounted my XV-15/750E, verified that everything was working, then swapped styli. The TL4S just creamed the much regarded 750E. More authoritive bass, greater dynamics overall with cleaner and more extended highs. This was with "0" hours of break-in. The best Stanton/Pickering M/I that I own is the Stanton L747S (D74S stylus). Stanton only had one M/I above it and that was the L847S (D84S stylus). I have mounted the TL4S on the L747S body. No contest there either. Easily bettered the highly thought of D74S which BTW is also a Sterohedron styli. I now have just over 7 hours on the L747S/TL4S and have to state, this is one hell of a stylus. My posts have been taking 12+ hours to appear on this thread so by the time you read this, I will have compared it to Stanton's top cartridges, the 981 LZS and the HZS. This stylus is definitely a winner. Regards, Don |
Thanks, Tom,
I will be looking for some Gold XV-15 motors. This DTL-4S is the top "P mount" Pickering stylus. Would not its twin be the top Pickering stylus in the XV-15 line. Is that not the XV-15/1800S! The Stanton twins to the TL line/XV-15 line was the 681 solid mount and the L7x7S "P" mount. There top stylus was the 681EEES and the D84S. You and I have a D74S which is a step down from the D84S. There is no doubt in my mind that the DTL-4S is better that the/our D74S. Like is said earlier, this DTL-4S is a winner. Thank you for bring it to my/our attention. Quite a find and I'm looking for another! Regards, Don
|
Raul,
Over the last few years, I have been following various forums discussing the Stanton/Pickering cartridges. I have a little note book on just them. Before the Richards handbook, the only information/knowledge I had was from my notebook of statements made by forum members that I trusted or just felt had correct knowledge. Richards handbook greatly added to that data base. I also bought the stylus thinking (from my notes), that the M/M line is what this stylus supported. Once I realized something was wrong, I went looking in Richards reference handbook for answers. Thumbing thru, I found nothing pertaining to the TL line. I had to reread the handbook from page 1. When I got to page 48, at the bottom of the page is a small list of cartridges/styli with cross-References to the line of like Stanton/Pickering cartridges. The TL-4Super cross-ref. is to the Stanton/Pickering M/I line. This little tidbit of information is the only mention of any of the TL line of cartridges. Like I said, I had to reread the entire handbook to find it. I have proven it to be true. There are two Stanton Guru's (ex employees), on that forum you reference. They both readily admit to not knowing everything but they are far more knowledgeable than I. For you, this cartridge journey will be like the Goldring G800. Cheap body (Stanton/Pickering M/I series), with surprise stylus (DTL-4S), = goldmine. You will not be disappointed. Regards, Don |
My post Dated 12-16-12 took 17 hours to get printed! Moderator states 4-8 hours. When is the high speed improvement suppose to take effect? |
Hi Acmam3
I have not tried a TL-4S cartridge, but I do now have my eye on a TL-3 body. What I'm trying to determine is if the TL-(X) bodies are any different than the TL(X)S bodies. Until Timeltel mentioned the DTL-4S stylus, I had not given the cartridge line much thought. I owe Tom a thank you for mentioning it in a previous post, thereby peeking my interest. From Richards handbook, it appears the TL-(x)S cartridge "bodies" are all the same. Only the stylus quality being the deciding factor for improvements in the "S" line. I am quite awe struck with the DTL-4S stylus top flight performance. I think it being thought of as a "P" mount type, has allowed most of us to overlook it. That is until now! Regards, Don |
Raul,
"Btw, I already bought a DTL-4S in NOS condition for the non-Pmount Pickering cartridge version,"
Is yours the tall Stanton looking version, or the short flat Pickering looking version. Mine looks like a Stanton housing. Regards, Don |
Tom, The following quote is from a person on the Lenco forum in reply to a question I put forth to Richard. What he has said sort of snaps everything into focus.
"Your Stanton L747S, and the other L7x7 models: Stanton 680 in a P-Mount. Exact model designation differs according to stylus.
The equivalent Pickerings are the TL series which are the Pickering XV-15 in a P-Mount. Exact model designation (TLE, TL3-S, etc.) differs according to stylus."
Save yourself some money and just get the stylus. You already have 2 usable (identical), bodies.
Regards, Don |
Raul, I also took note of Lewm's comment and found this on eBay (350668391609). For $21.75 it was a no brainer. The shear number of Stanton/Pickering M/I bodies that are out there, is stagering.
"I think that I will stay " calm " about Stanton/Pickering with my two Stanton 981 L/H version , the Pickering 5000XVS and the TL-4S."
Raul, with that group of cartridges, staying "calm" will be rather hard to do.
Regards, Don |
Raul,
"There are several manufacturer " line contact " versions. It's right the name " line contact for them ? well is IMHO not important what is important is that as the Shibata or the analog-6 or even the MR the Stereohedron has a wider groove contact."
The Signet TK 7SU is a claimed to be a Shibata tip by Audio Technica. Their TK 7CLA is claimed to be a Line Contact. By your above quote, then they both must be the same stylus! Are they? I have both and they sure don't sound the same to me. Regards, Don |
Raul
"About AT its Sibata ones are different than the Line Contact ones or the MR stylus shape even in what AT name it as Line Contact there are variations and diferent quality on the polish of the stylus or grain oriented and the like.
That is why I questioned PickeringUK's use of the term "Line Contact" for their Stereohedron stylus in their ad. They are not the same but different profiles. Same family but slightly different! Actually the Shibata came 1st. So it should be of the Shibata family, not line contact family.
Regards, Don
|
Hi Fleib, Your comments are one of the underlying reasons I bought mine from TurntableNeedles.com. Their add states Jico manufactured. Actually never had a problem with either suppliers but truth in advertising being what it is, well, stated Jico, I went with them. I had taken notes from some of your statements pertaining to this transplant and did have on my list a ATN7V. Now that I have done this opperation, I just might do a 152LP that I have lying around next. Maybe my 440MLa (also not being used). This just might be fun. You are one of the people I must thank for leading the way in this transplant. Thank You! Regards, Don |
Thanks Fleib, I don't mean to be a pest over this. This angle difference must be far greater than I have been mentally picturing it. You still have given me additional options with your previous sugestions. Thanks again, over and out!
Best of Regards, Don |
Hi Fleib,
LPGear is in my understanding, the US distributor for Jico. Do you think Jico grades their stylus (grade 1,2,3,), then ships to LPGear? They (LPGear),then distributes to say TurntableNeedles and others, keeping the grades 1 for their own sale. Sounds like a good business decision to me. What you experienced kind of proves it. I think I'm going to start making all my Jico buys confined to just LPGear or Jico direct! The Beryllium cantilever is my favorite and what I would like to install in a Virtuoso. What that cantilever (with shibata tip), did to my Goldring G800 still to this day has me absolutely stunned! I haven't intended to cut up the housing of either of the previous mentioned stylus (152LP or 440MLa), but do a transplant to a much cheaper AT95e (LPGear $33), green in color housing in which I would cut up to fit into the Virtuoso. I understand it to have the screw for stylus removal. I've experienced far to many bend stylus by accidents. I have no desire to start bending them on purpose. I remember reading somewhere that during the removal of a Boron or Beryllium cantilever, that just the backing off of the screw, shattered the cantilever so I'm a little nervous about this! Considering your past experience and knowledge in this process, If you have additional or corrective input, it would be much appreciated. Thanks again Fleib for opening my eyes and ears to a this new experience! Best of Regards, Don |
Hi Fleib,
If the slight difference in cantilever angle was quantified, lets say 2 degrees positive, could you instead of bending the cantilever, just place a thin, very thin tapered wedge on top of the cartridge body at installation to the tone arm/headshell/arm wand? Wedge could be made from ebony, lead, carbon fiber or whatever to satisfy resonance questions. Would not a tone arm with VTA adjustment on the fly (like my Graham 2.2), be able to do the same thing? If we are talkin slight angle adjustment of the cantilever, seems to me that this method would be a simple answer. Perhaps I'm not mentally seeing something? Regards, Don
|
On the usaudiomart.com web site there is a Virtuoso Wood with a slightly bend stylus for sale. Concidering how easy and cheap ($33), to actually get a replacement stylus, the asking price of $250 seems down right cheap. If I didn't already own 2, you would of never seen this HEADS UP! |
Acman3 & Comrade Nikola,
I only have spec. sheets for my LZS. I bought the HZS used and it didn't come with anything but the stylus guard! From my Stanton Cartridge Specifications page, Tracking range---.75-1.5 Channel seperation 35db DC Resistance 535 Ohms Inductance 400 mH Output .8 mV Nandric, the specs. for the cartridge just mentioned are much closer to what you have stated. The cartridge the specs. I have just listed are from a Stanton 500EE MKII from their Broadcast series. Nandric, how sure are you that it is even a 981. Have you varied that it is even a M/M and not a M/I. |
Hi Professor,
Andy will take good care of the "TK7LCa". I intend dropping in on him this spring for a visit. Early M/C trip (Motorcycle not Moving Coil)! We're only a couple of hundred miles apart so for me (as well as it should be for you), a much safer shipment feeling than sending across the right pond to Axel. I've got a bid in on a Goldring G800 original stylus that Andy is waiting on. He wants to do a boron/LC replacement tip to see how well it compares to the Beryllium/Shibata stylus I had done with Axel. I am still quite impressed with the suspension rebuild he did on my Blue Oasis M/C. Sure is nice having someone so close with this type of expertise! I'm still in wonderment as to how Stanton/Pickering can get such amazing sound from their short fat (Home Depot looking), pipe of a cantiliver. Sprinkled with "pixie dust" as you say. Regards, and happy holidays to you, Don |
Lewm,
We are splitting hairs in our description of the two 981's. My comment did not state it sounds bright. I said "ever so slightly bright", and this was only after listening to a steady diet of M/M's for days at a time. It is not a bright sounding cartridge. I agree with both Fleib, Raul and with you. This isn't a matter of I like it, you don't. We all like them both. None of our hearing responces are the same. Perhaps there is something happening above the hearing responce I have in my ears that I'm not hearing or am hearing differently. BTW, I happen to be senior. Those of you that are younger, will hear a completely different frequency responce than I do. It actually susprises me that these two completely different designs can sound so similar! Regards, Don |
Lewm, Fleib,
Neutrally rich. Yes, that I would agree with in describing either of the two cartridges. Neutrally rich, I like that! Regards, Don |
Lewm, How could I have thought that you think I am "wrong" in my opinion when I know I'm right. (grin) How exactly would you describe your LZ? Not bright, well then perhaps dull?, Leaning towards neutral? Leaning from where? Bright? Dull? There is no perfect cartridge so how would you describe your LZ. To call a LZ or HZ dull someone must have a rolled of top end phono sage or perhaps tubes that are far from their prime! Fleib's neutral best somes it up in my opinion, for both of them. Regards, Don |
Hey Tom,
You get instant double posts, my single posts take 2 days. Go figure?
Regards, Don |
Raul,
**Other consideration here is that my HZ runs with the Pickering XSV 5000 MK2 stylus replacement that between other things fits ( stay in place with out loose. ) better than the original one.**
Richard Steinfeld (the author of the Handbook for Stanton and Pickering Phonograph Cartridges and Styli), states many times in that handbook NOT to mix styli with various bodies. He says you will get music, but it will not be what was intended by the disigner of the cartridge. Regards, Don |
Raul,
Perhaps you need to address your findings to Richard Steinfeld, the Guru of all that is Pickering/Stanton. I only quoated what he has placed in print. I don't doubt you like your hybred better than a original 881LZS. But you do not have a original 981HZS to do a comparision. I have a Goldring G800 that was designed to be an entry level cartridge. I can claim that it is better than many of the cartridges that we have reviewed on this Forum including the Virtuoso. The fact that it now has a Beryllium cantilever and a Shibata tip, and no longer has a alum cantiliver with a conical tip I quess doesn't matter. |
Dear Comrade,
If the Emperor has no close, lets not pretend we don't notice! |
Raul,
A few weeks back there was a Glanz MFG-71L up for auction on eBay. I came close to bidding on it but because I already have a Astatic MF100 & MF200 I decided to pass. I hope you still have a MF100 in your stash because I really would like to hear how the two compare and if perhaps they really are the same cartridge. Looking forward to your results. Regards, Don |
Raul, I feel tracking distortions (or lack of), is even more important than cantilever/stylus profile. What I wonder about is the fact that your 5000 is not even Pickering's top stylus. There is still the 7500 series. I understand changing cantilever material or a stylus profile by Axel or anyone else can and does make a dramatic improvement. What I would like to understand better is why swapping a Stereohedron for another Stereohedron could make such an improvement, especially when both were manufactured by the same company and both stated to be TOTL. Raul, do you have access to equipment that would let you see a frequency response from a cartridge. I would like to see or have explained to me, what differences the two styli produces. I would also like to know what the factory loading produces compared to your preferred loading in ref. to F/Response. Knowing you like your loading better is fine, but what is actually happening to the F/Response between the factory settings and your preference which I think was Res. 100K and cap. 350 + cables. What does the F/Response look like at cap. settings of 100, 250? You settled on cap. of 350 because you liked how it sounded at this setting. What does the F/Response look like? A lot of questions but no documented answers. I would just like to better understand all this Raul, in more scientific terms. Regards, Don |
Dear Comrade Nickola,
"I will report about my Shiraz when I get the cart back from Axel"
You may have just made your first step into heaven! Keep us informed. Regards, Don |
Sorry Comrade,
Should read "If the Emperor has no clothes,
Regards, Don |
Nandric, Raul,
I have read on other forums that Sound Smith (Peter), is doing great things with what he refers to as a manor rebuild of the Denon 103. It's not cheap but claims to make it a world class contender, bar none! Regards, Don |
Raul, I have remounted my AT180 and my TK10MK(?), to decide weather my initial impressions could be confirmed. I think the person who sold you the TK10MK calling it a MKII is because the stylus was upgraded to a MKII. Looking at the screws, there is markings on the screws that prove they have been back out and then retightened. Just like what would happen if the stylus had been replace. I have always liked my TK10 over my AT180. The differences are small and not definable by me so lets just say personnel preference. Your statement about the MKII betters the AT180 is just how I feel about my TK10. I don't feel Signet made any changes to the TK10 generator when they brought out the upgraded stylus MKII. No mounted stylus guard to ID so they ID'D the body. Are you aware of any way to determine a MKI stylus or a MKII or would it take looking at them under a microscope? Regards, Don |
Moderator, Is there a reason why my posts take so long to actually get posted?
Regards, Don |
Raul,
Thank you for the update on my "TK10ML" It was an honest mistake. Expensive one, but honest mistake non the less. If I ever decide to sell it, It will go as a "MK" only. But I do disagree with your assesment of calling it only "average" performer. It may not be as good as the "MKII" but "average", absolutely not. Regards, Don |
Raul,
There was a MKII available on eBay in need of a stylus just a few weeks back. Knowing there are no stylus's available, I passed. BIG mistake! O'well, be patient, there will be others. Regards, Don |
Grbluen2, That 440 went cheap. After bidding ended, I had that sick feeling in my stomach. You know, that one you get when you tell yourself, damn, I should have bid on that. There will be others but the buyer will be paying top price now that Raul has let the cat out of the bag. Even Comrade Nadric is interested. Do I smell feeding frenzy! |
Comrade Nadric,
Axel was buying up the supply of used AKG P8's and rebuilding them, then selling the refurbished cartridges on the web. I got mine from him that way. I had thought that you also had gotten yours from him (rebuilt). I'm having trouble with the dreaded sssssssssss. Even with the Mint LP set-up device, it's still rears its ugly head on certain records. I was susprised when the Goldring G800 was not listed in your reply. Nice to know it's still in the running. Mine having the Beryllium cantiliver has raised its position even with the 991's. My Astatic MF100 just edges it out. Very close though. Regards, Don |