Who needs a MM cartridge type when we have MC?


Dear friends: who really needs an MM type phono cartridge?, well I will try to share/explain with you what are my experiences about and I hope too that many of you could enrich the topic/subject with your own experiences.

For some years ( in this forum ) and time to time I posted that the MM type cartridge quality sound is better than we know or that we think and like four months ago I start a thread about: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1173550723&openusid&zzRauliruegas&4&5#Rauliruegas where we analyse some MM type cartridges.

Well, in the last 10-12 months I buy something like 30+ different MM type phono cartridges ( you can read in my virtual system which ones. ) and I’m still doing it. The purpose of this fact ( “ buy it “ ) is for one way to confirm or not if really those MM type cartridges are good for us ( music lovers ) and at the same time learn about MM vs MC cartridges, as a fact I learn many things other than MM/MC cartridge subject.

If we take a look to the Agon analog members at least 90% of them use ( only ) MC phono cartridges, if we take a look to the “ professional reviewers “ ( TAS, Stereophile, Positive Feedback, Enjoy the Music, etc, etc, ) 95% ( at least ) of them use only MC cartridges ( well I know that for example: REG and NG of TAS and RJR of Stereophile use only MM type cartridges!!!!!!!! ) , if we take a look to the phono cartridge manufacturers more than 90% of them build/design for MC cartridges and if you speak with audio dealers almost all will tell you that the MC cartridges is the way to go.

So, who are wrong/right, the few ( like me ) that speak that the MM type is a very good alternative or the “ whole “ cartridge industry that think and support the MC cartridge only valid alternative?

IMHO I think that both groups are not totally wrong/right and that the subject is not who is wrong/right but that the subject is : KNOW-HOW or NON KNOW-HOW about.

Many years ago when I was introduced to the “ high end “ the cartridges were almost MM type ones: Shure, Stanton, Pickering, Empire, etc, etc. In those time I remember that one dealer told me that if I really want to be nearest to the music I have to buy the Empire 4000 D ( they say for 4-channel reproduction as well. ) and this was truly my first encounter with a “ high end cartridge “, I buy the 4000D I for 70.00 dls ( I can’t pay 150.00 for the D III. ), btw the specs of these Empire cartridges were impressive even today, look: frequency response: 5-50,000Hz, channel separation: 35db, tracking force range: 0.25grs to 1.25grs!!!!!!!!, just impressive, but there are some cartridges which frequency response goes to 100,000Hz!!!!!!!!!!

I start to learn about and I follow to buying other MM type cartridges ( in those times I never imagine nothing about MC cartridges: I don’t imagine of its existence!!!. ) like AKG, Micro Acoustics, ADC, B&O, Audio Technica, Sonus, etc, etc.

Years latter the same dealer told me about the MC marvelous cartridges and he introduce me to the Denon-103 following with the 103-D and the Fulton High performance, so I start to buy and hear MC cartridges. I start to read audio magazines about either cartridge type: MM and Mc ones.

I have to make changes in my audio system ( because of the low output of the MC cartridges and because I was learning how to improve the performance of my audio system ) and I follow what the reviewers/audio dealers “ speak “ about, I was un-experienced !!!!!!!, I was learning ( well I’m yet. ).

I can tell you many good/bad histories about but I don’t want that the thread was/is boring for you, so please let me tell you what I learn and where I’m standing today about:

over the years I invested thousands of dollars on several top “ high end “ MC cartridges, from the Sumiko Celebration passing for Lyras, Koetsu, Van denHul, to Allaerts ones ( just name it and I can tell that I own or owned. ), what I already invest on MC cartridges represent almost 70-80% price of my audio system.

Suddenly I stop buying MC cartridges and decide to start again with some of the MM type cartridges that I already own and what I heard motivate me to start the search for more of those “ hidden jewels “ that are ( here and now ) the MM phono cartridges and learn why are so good and how to obtain its best quality sound reproduction ( as a fact I learn many things other than MM cartridge about. ).

I don’t start this “ finding “ like a contest between MC and MM type cartridges.
The MC cartridges are as good as we already know and this is not the subject here, the subject is about MM type quality performance and how achieve the best with those cartridges.

First than all I try to identify and understand the most important characteristics ( and what they “ means “. ) of the MM type cartridges ( something that in part I already have it because our phonolinepreamp design needs. ) and its differences with the MC ones.

Well, first than all is that are high output cartridges, very high compliance ones ( 50cu is not rare. ), low or very low tracking force ones, likes 47kOhms and up, susceptible to some capacitance changes, user stylus replacement, sometimes we can use a different replacement stylus making an improvement with out the necessity to buy the next top model in the cartridge line , low and very low weight cartridges, almost all of them are build of plastic material with aluminum cantilever and with eliptical or “ old “ line contact stylus ( shibata ) ( here we don’t find: Jade/Coral/Titanium/etc, bodies or sophisticated build material cantilevers and sophisticated stylus shape. ), very very… what I say? Extremely low prices from 40.00 to 300.00 dls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, well one of my cartridges I buy it for 8.99 dls ( one month ago ): WOW!!!!!!, so any one of you can/could have/buy ten to twenty MM cartridges for the price of one of the MC cartridge you own today and the good notice is that is a chance that those 10-20 MM type cartridges even the quality performance of your MC cartridge or beat it.

Other characteristics is that the builders show how proud they were/are on its MM type cartridges design, almost all those cartridges comes with a first rate box, comes with charts/diagrams of its frequency response and cartridge channel separation ( where they tell us which test recording use it, with which VTF, at which temperature, etc, etc. ), comes with a very wide explanation of the why’s and how’s of its design and the usual explanation to mount the cartridge along with a very wide list of specifications ( that were the envy of any of today MC ones where sometimes we really don’t know nothing about. ), comes with a set of screws/nuts, comes with a stylus brush and even with stylus cleaning fluid!!!!!!!!!, my GOD. Well, there are cartridges like the Supex SM 100MK2 that comes with two different stylus!!!! One with spherical and one with elliptical/shibata shape and dear friends all those in the same low low price!!!!!!!!!!!

Almost all the cartridges I own you can find it through Ebay and Agon and through cartridge dealers and don’t worry if you loose/broke the stylus cartridge or you find the cartridge but with out stylus, you always can/could find the stylus replacement, no problem about there are some stylus and cartridge sources.

When I’m talking about MM type cartridges I’m refer to different types: moving magnet, moving iron, moving flux, electret, variable reluctance, induced magnet, etc, etc. ( here is not the place to explain the differences on all those MM type cartridges. Maybe on other future thread. ).

I made all my very long ( time consuming ) cartridge tests using four different TT’s: Acoustic Signature Analog One MK2, Micro Seiki RX-5000, Luxman PD 310 and Technics SP-10 MK2, I use only removable headshell S and J shape tonearms with 15mm on overhang, I use different material build/ shape design /weight headshells. I test each cartridge in at least three different tonearms and some times in 3-4 different headshells till I find the “ right “ match where the cartridge perform the best, no I’m not saying that I already finish or that I already find the “ perfect “ match: cartridge/headshell/tonearm but I think I’m near that ideal target.

Through my testing experience I learn/ confirm that trying to find the right tonearm/headshell for any cartridge is well worth the effort and more important that be changing the TT. When I switch from a TT to another different one the changes on the quality cartridge performance were/are minimal in comparison to a change in the tonearm/headshell, this fact was consistent with any of those cartridges including MC ones.

So after the Phonolinepreamplifier IMHO the tonearm/headshell match for any cartridge is the more important subject, it is so important and complex that in the same tonearm ( with the same headshell wires ) but with different headshell ( even when the headshell weight were the same ) shape or build material headshell the quality cartridge performance can/could be way different.

All those experiences told me that chances are that the cartridge that you own ( MC or MM ) is not performing at its best because chances are that the tonearm you own is not the best match for that cartridge!!!!!!, so imagine what do you can/could hear when your cartridge is or will be on the right tonearm???!!!!!!!!, IMHO there are ( till today ) no single ( any type at any price ) perfect universal tonearm. IMHO there is no “ the best tonearm “, what exist or could exist is a “ best tonearm match for “ that “ cartridge “, but that’s all. Of course that are “ lucky “ tonearms that are very good match for more than one cartridge but don’t for every single cartridge.

I posted several times that I’m not a tonearm collector, that I own all those tonearms to have alternatives for my cartridges and with removable headshells my 15 tonearms are really like 100+ tonearms : a very wide options/alternatives for almost any cartridge!!!!!!

You can find several of these MM type cartridges new brand or NOS like: Ortofon, Nagaoka, Audio Technica, Astatic, B&O, Rega, Empire, Sonus Reson,Goldring,Clearaudio, Grado, Shelter, Garrot, etc. and all of them second hand in very good operational condition. As a fact I buy two and even three cartridges of the same model in some of the cartridges ( so right now I have some samples that I think I don’t use any more. ) to prevent that one of them arrive in non operational condition but I’m glad to say that all them arrive in very fine conditions. I buy one or two of the cartridges with no stylus or with the stylus out of work but I don’t have any trouble because I could find the stylus replacement on different sources and in some case the original new replacement.

All these buy/find cartridges was very time consuming and we have to have a lot of patience and a little lucky to obtain what we are looking for but I can asure you that is worth of it.

Ok, I think it is time to share my performance cartridge findings:

first we have to have a Phonolinepreamplifier with a very good MM phono stage ( at least at the same level that the MC stage. ). I’m lucky because my Phonolinepreamplifier has two independent phono stages, one for the MM and one for MC: both were designed for the specifics needs of each cartridge type, MM or MC that have different needs.

we need a decent TT and decent tonearm.

we have to load the MM cartridges not at 47K but at 100K ( at least 75K not less. ).

I find that using 47K ( a standard manufacture recommendation ) prevent to obtain the best quality performance, 100K make the difference. I try this with all those MM type cartridges and in all of them I achieve the best performance with 100K load impedance.

I find too that using the manufacturer capacitance advise not always is for the better, till “ the end of the day “ I find that between 100-150pf ( total capacitance including cable capacitance. ) all the cartridges performs at its best.

I start to change the load impedance on MM cartridges like a synonymous that what many of us made with MC cartridges where we try with different load impedance values, latter I read on the Empire 4000 DIII that the precise load impedance must be 100kOhms and in a white paper of some Grace F9 tests the used impedance value was 100kOhms, the same that I read on other operational MM cartridge manual and my ears tell/told me that 100kOhms is “ the value “.

Before I go on I want to remember you that several of those MM type cartridges ( almost all ) were build more than 30+ years ago!!!!!!!! and today performs at the same top quality level than today MC/MM top quality cartridges!!!!!, any brand at any price and in some ways beat it.

I use 4-5 recordings that I know very well and that give me the right answers to know that any cartridge is performing at its best or near it. Many times what I heard through those recordings were fine: everything were on target however the music don’t come “ alive “ don’t “ tell me “ nothing, I was not feeling the emotion that the music can communicate. In those cartridge cases I have to try it in other tonearm and/or with a different headshell till the “ feelings comes “ and only when this was achieved I then was satisfied.

All the tests were made with a volume level ( SPL ) where the recording “ shines “ and comes alive like in a live event. Sometimes changing the volume level by 1-1.5 db fixed everything.

Of course that the people that in a regular manner attend to hear/heard live music it will be more easy to know when something is right or wrong.

Well, Raul go on!!: one characteristic on the MM cartridges set-up was that almost all them likes to ride with a positive ( little/small ) VTA only the Grace Ruby and F9E and Sonus Gold Blue likes a negative VTA , on the other hand with the Nagaoka MP 50 Super and the Ortofon’s I use a flat VTA.

Regarding the VTF I use the manufacturer advise and sometimes 0.1+grs.
Of course that I made fine tuning through moderate changes in the Azymuth and for anti-skate I use between half/third VTF value.

I use different material build headshells: aluminum, composite aluminum, magnesium, composite magnesium, ceramic, wood and non magnetic stainless steel, these cartridges comes from Audio Technica, Denon, SAEC, Technics, Fidelity Research, Belldream, Grace, Nagaoka, Koetsu, Dynavector and Audiocraft.
All of them but the wood made ( the wood does not likes to any cartridge. ) very good job . It is here where a cartridge could seems good or very good depending of the headshell where is mounted and the tonearm.
Example, I have hard time with some of those cartridge like the Audio Technica AT 20SS where its performance was on the bright sound that sometimes was harsh till I find that the ceramic headshell was/is the right match now this cartridge perform beautiful, something similar happen with the Nagaoka ( Jeweltone in Japan ), Shelter , Grace, Garrot , AKG and B&O but when were mounted in the right headshell/tonearm all them performs great.

Other things that you have to know: I use two different cooper headshell wires, both very neutral and with similar “ sound “ and I use three different phono cables, all three very neutral too with some differences on the sound performance but nothing that “ makes the difference “ on the quality sound of any of my cartridges, either MM or MC, btw I know extremely well those phono cables: Analysis Plus, Harmonic Technologies and Kimber Kable ( all three the silver models. ), finally and don’t less important is that those phono cables were wired in balanced way to take advantage of my Phonolinepreamp fully balanced design.

What do you note the first time you put your MM cartridge on the record?, well a total absence of noise/hum or the like that you have through your MC cartridges ( and that is not a cartridge problem but a Phonolinepreamp problem due to the low output of the MC cartridges. ), a dead silent black ( beautiful ) soundstage where appear the MUSIC performance, this experience alone is worth it.

The second and maybe the most important MM cartridge characteristic is that you hear/heard the MUSIC flow/run extremely “ easy “ with no distracting sound distortions/artifacts ( I can’t explain exactly this very important subject but it is wonderful ) even you can hear/heard “ sounds/notes “ that you never before heard it and you even don’t know exist on the recording: what a experience!!!!!!!!!!!

IMHO I think that the MUSIC run so easily through a MM cartridge due ( between other facts ) to its very high compliance characteristic on almost any MM cartridge.

This very high compliance permit ( between other things like be less sensitive to out-center hole records. ) to these cartridges stay always in contact with the groove and never loose that groove contact not even on the grooves that were recorded at very high velocity, something that a low/medium cartridge compliance can’t achieve, due to this low/medium compliance characteristic the MC cartridges loose ( time to time and depending of the recorded velocity ) groove contact ( minute extremely minute loose contact, but exist. ) and the quality sound performance suffer about and we can hear it, the same pass with the MC cartridges when are playing the inner grooves on a record instead the very high compliance MM cartridges because has better tracking drive perform better than the MC ones at inner record grooves and here too we can hear it.

Btw, some Agoners ask very worried ( on more than one Agon thread ) that its cartridge can’t track ( clean ) the cannons on the 1812 Telarc recording and usually the answers that different people posted were something like this: “””” don’t worry about other than that Telarc recording no other commercial recording comes recorded at that so high velocity, if you don’t have trouble with other of your LP’s then stay calm. “””””

Well, this standard answer have some “ sense “ but the people ( like me ) that already has/have the experience to hear/heard a MM or MC ( like the Ortofon MC 2000 or the Denon DS1, high compliance Mc cartridges. ) cartridge that pass easily the 1812 Telarc test can tell us that those cartridges make a huge difference in the quality sound reproduction of any “ normal “ recording, so it is more important that what we think to have a better cartridge tracking groove drive!!!!

There are many facts around the MM cartridge subject but till we try it in the right set-up it will be ( for some people ) difficult to understand “ those beauties “. Something that I admire on the MM cartridges is how ( almost all of them ) they handle the frequency extremes: the low bass with the right pitch/heft/tight/vivid with no colorations of the kind “ organic !!” that many non know-how people speak about, the highs neutral/open/transparent/airy believable like the live music, these frequency extremes handle make that the MUSIC flow in our minds to wake up our feelings/emotions that at “ the end of the day “ is all what a music lover is looking for.
These not means that these cartridges don’t shine on the midrange because they do too and they have very good soundstage but here is more system/room dependent.

Well we have a very good alternative on the ( very low price ) MM type cartridges to achieve that music target and I’m not saying that you change your MC cartridge for a MM one: NO, what I’m trying to tell you is that it is worth to have ( as many you can buy/find ) the MM type cartridges along your MC ones

I want to tell you that I can live happy with any of those MM cartridges and I’m not saying with this that all of them perform at the same quality level NO!! what I’m saying is that all of them are very good performers, all of them approach you nearest to the music.

If you ask me which one is the best I can tell you that this will be a very hard “ call “ an almost impossible to decide, I think that I can make a difference between the very good ones and the stellar ones where IMHO the next cartridges belongs to this group:

Audio Technica ATML 170 and 180 OCC, Grado The Amber Tribute, Grace Ruby, Garrot P77, Nagaoka MP-50 Super, B&O MMC2 and MMC20CL, AKG P8ES SuperNova, Reson Reca ,Astatic MF-100 and Stanton LZS 981.

There are other ones that are really near this group: ADC Astrion, Supex MF-100 MK2, Micro Acoustics MA630/830, Empire 750 LTD and 600LAC, Sonus Dimension 5, Astatic MF-200 and 300 and the Acutex 320III.

The other ones are very good too but less refined ones.
I try too ( owned or borrowed for a friend ) the Shure IV and VMR, Music maker 2-3 and Clearaudio Virtuoso/Maestro, from these I could recommended only the Clearaudios the Shure’s and Music Maker are almost mediocre ones performers.
I forgot I try to the B&O Soundsmith versions, well this cartridges are good but are different from the original B&O ( that I prefer. ) due that the Sounsmith ones use ruby cantilevers instead the original B&O sapphire ones that for what I tested sounds more natural and less hi-fi like the ruby ones.

What I learn other that the importance on the quality sound reproduction through MM type cartridges?, well that unfortunately the advance in the design looking for a better quality cartridge performers advance almost nothing either on MM and MC cartridges.

Yes, today we have different/advanced body cartridge materials, different cantilever build materials, different stylus shape/profile, different, different,,,,different, but the quality sound reproduction is almost the same with cartridges build 30+ years ago and this is a fact. The same occur with TT’s and tonearms. Is sad to speak in this way but it is what we have today. Please, I’m not saying that some cartridges designs don’t grow up because they did it, example: Koetsu they today Koetsu’s are better performers that the old ones but against other cartridges the Koetsu ones don’t advance and many old and today cartridges MM/MC beat them easily.

Where I think the audio industry grow-up for the better are in electronic audio items ( like the Phonolinepreamps ), speakers and room treatment, but this is only my HO.

I know that there are many things that I forgot and many other things that we have to think about but what you can read here is IMHO a good point to start.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
rauliruegas

Showing 50 responses by rauliruegas

Dear @harold-not-the-barrel : Sorry for the delay. The 13D VTF range is 1.5grs-1.8grs.

If I remebered I use it at the middle of that VTF range. In theory this makes that coils be centered in better way that at the range extremes.
In the other side I never like a VTF set-up in the low VTF range, my mind is more " calm " over that inferior VTF range. The possibility of any microscopic mistracking can happens more easy at 1.5 than at 1.6grs. A mistracking that can damage the LP grooves.


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.


Dear @jpjones3318: I remember when some of us (  7-8 . @downunder and me betweem them. ) bougth from the same source the NOS mk4 cartridges where almost all had problems with the cartridge suspension.

That kind of problem with Technics appeared only with the EPC100 mk4 because I bougth a great 205 mk4 that was developed only with two years difference and never had that kind of problems and other gentlemans that bougth the EPC 100 MK3 or 2 never had any problem.

I really hope the downunder sample arrives in good shape. We can't know it till we have it.

If the replacement works as new then its price is worth to invest on it but it's a risk to do it due to the whole history about.


regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
Dear @pryso : Easy: I own over 7K LPs and when I re-discovered the MM alternative was really enligthed and I wanted to share every one.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
Dear @downunder : That original cartridge is just terrific. Good luck with it and yes play with all this warranty days time.

Btw, @pryso maybe we don't need a mk5 new Technics design today but this same MK4 with some kind of up-dates. It's a killer´s cartridge.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
Dear @frogman : I dont think we are around circles but if you think are " circles " is better because a circle is closed not something that just left in the " air "/open.

I respect your position on the subject but I posted clear evidence of all the different steps and sources where the analog signal is totally losted and never recovered because there is no way to recover it.
I told you that I was not analizing all the other steps during the playback where that true losting of information is happening and where additional are generated full of different kind of distortions that at minimum puts blur in the analog signal but this kind of blur happens to during the recording process and I did not analize it yet.
Other lost information analog source: if your phono stage was not designed with the Neumann pole in the inverse RIAA eq. then you are losting information too.

All those " facts " not only alter but disappears the original expression you talk about and what we are listening from the speakers through analog is a totally new " expression " if exist at all. and the like

Digital has not that kind of heavy different problems if any.

People think that R2R is the " reference " and better than same digital process but it's not because is way different to record in tape zeros and ones than the complexity of the analog information signal.
We have to think that the analog signal must " suffer " the R2R noise levels, frequency response limitations, speed stability of the recording mechanism, wow&flutter and the like where to the digital recording signal  is not affected by and you can attest what I'm saying:

take one of the D2D Sheffield LP and check it against is counterpart ( same LP recording, same session. ) recorded direct two 2 track tape and you will listen a huge differences in between where the D2D is way superior to the one that was recorded using a R2R.

Analog is a mess, problem for we analog and music lovers is to understand it and accept it's.

I remember very well and I own it several LPs recorded digital in the old times with all the digital limitations that the medium had.

Examples about are the Denon PCM LP recordings that if you listen one of the good Denon recordings you will be extremely satisfied with. Not all Denon's LP sounds good and comes with that " expression " but the good ones are really good.

Telarcs are other very good example of digital LP recordings. Yes, there are the bad ones here too but the good ones you can't say if are full analog or digital/analog, even if you invite one of your friends and with out tell him is a digital recording he just can't take it in count is digital.

Delos is another great example of labels with digital LP recordings.

Delos and Telarc used the rudimentary Soundstream digital machine where Denon, that are experts about, designed his own PCM recording machine that in theory was better than the Soundstream.

From some time now ( in the last times. ) many of the LP recordings are recorded with the latest digital technology and many audiophiles just don't know it and like a lot what they are hearing.

Look this gentleman  in one word is a true reference, take a look on his audio system where he has top reference analog rig including R2R and top digital rig but additional well not additional but before all that he is a true music lover and as a human beeen a true top gentleman . Read what he posted and again read and see his home audio system details:


https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/what-sounds-best-vinyl-or-cds/post?postid=1445044#1445044

https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/615


I'm not closed to your " expression " it's only that other than listen it I analize if in reality is preserved by analog and things says it's not.
Even this I like analog alternative and as he I like digital too and know for sure its inherent today superiority.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.



Dear @frogman : For years Mike was an analog lover and as thousands of audiophiles and music lovers digital was a forbiden alternative. For some time now he " understand " digital scenario and its top quality performance and today he is really deep learning about.

Today digital alternative is working in the beginning of its maturity step and what it shows it is just fabolous and the good news is that it’s every day improving it so the best is forth coming. Nothing can stop it, not even we analog lovers because I’m one of them.

I don’t dimish you or other gentlemans that think like you, things are that I see " things " from a different approach. Remember that my main target in my home system is to stay nearer to the recording not to the live experiences.

I’m not talking of " numbers " per sé I only pointed out clear sources ( and many more than exist in analog. ) where in this alternative the original information is losted and this like it or not alter everything on what we are listening.

As you I know what I listen what my ears, brain and body perceives. Years ago I was a furious defender of analog against digital but as digital through the time I learn what happens all over the recording/playback process of what we are listening.

Like it or not what you and every one listen in its systems are reflected through ( at least. ): frequency response, noise/distortions levels and SPL. Inside this characteristics and other goes everything we percieves at listening sessions.

Mike is a gentleman that’s polite and mind opened to any kind of subjects as the one we are touching and I?m sure that he never did the " 3 months digital test " but I’m sure too that you and tyour friends and furious digital detractor neither and if we don’t do it then we can’t talk inside the same scenario.

You can tell that maybe you don’t need that test as Mike that does not need it but today he knows and through many of his posts you can read that that " expression " exist even for his musicians/composer friends as he pointed out in the link I posted:

" Friday night I had a few serious analog focused guys over and we listened to quite a bit of digital; mostly string quartets, and classical piano. they were quite amazed at the natural, spacious and focused presentation. one of them is a classical composer and music professor. he was especially taken with a redbook Haydn String Quartet and the sound staging and natural tone. "

" he was especially taken...

and his friends was not in the daily listening in digital.

Btw, if we analize a little to the Mike’s system we can note that exist no tubes that can’t honor music/expression ( impedes to stay nearer to the recording, no matters what. ), DD TT, no LT tonearm ( he was owner for year of a Rockport series 3 TT that came with LT. ), no all metal tonearm and no undamped tonearm, speakers with two self powered subwoofers. His TT is not only a DD but the most importan issue is that the manufacturer before builded TTs is an expert in damping devices for audio and that TT has that expertise including in the arm boards.

Now, maybe we don’t like or don’t want to stay truer to the recording and this is up to each one of us.

For me this dialogue with you was and is a learning one and my target is not who has the reason because both alternatives has its own trade-offs. Maybe what you and other gentlemans need is to be exposed more frequently to decent or top digital listening sessions.

Btw, in this subject we are discussing is happening the same that happened when I touch for the first time in this forum the necessity to have: a pair of self powered subwoofers, DD turntables, tonearms with removable headshells, well damped tonearms and the like. Many many people was and posted against what I was telling but years latter almost all of them areb using exactly what they were against it. Such is life.

@toddverrone said: " well said. ", with out explanation why is good said because I’m not using " the data " as a main argument.

frogman even in this audio system subject we have to walk ahead, digital is a step ahead and not as you posted somewhere a backwards. It¿’s not this way. As Mike there are several analog lovers that " knows " about and like it .

I think it’s a good time for every one to start to build a digital rig at least: just for fun ! !


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.


Dear @downunder : That AS TT is nothing especial. Appeared in 1983 along the heavy weigth fashion of all those old times. Yes, a very high inertia moment that can helps to speed stability but with draw backs too. Nothing is perfect.

If you observe this design is very similar to MS one: all metal, four metal arm boards and all these arm board at the worst place: at the TT feets where everything must pass.

What's new with? what advantage has over any today top TT? . I have no curiosity about.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
Dear @frogman @pryso : """ you’ve confused me again with your statement, "Remember that my main target in my home system is to stay nearer to the recording not to the live experiences."

How many of us can have the experience of hearing a recording session to then judge how closely the resulting media (in any format) sounds on our home systems? """


"""
to make that very point numerous times in other discussions when faced with the argument that the live music experience is not a valid reference. ........ To use the resulting recorded sound as a reference is problematic as you point out ....... """



I’m sorry for both of you confussions. As you know several times my explanations are not really good because my ignorance levels on the english language.

Here I go: for third time in this discussion I post that my ultimate reference always is LIVE MUSIC ( I posted in this and other forums hundreds of times. ). Period.

Now, of course that I never was on my LPs recording sessions and I don’t need it to fulfill my target: truer to the recording.

Why I don’t need it. Because ity does not matters about the recording sessions that I can’t change it  in any way .My whole/overall home audio system work has its solid foundation in this statement:

TRY TO MANTAIN AT MINIMUM EVERY KIND OF DISTORTIONS OR ADDED INFORMATION LEVELS AT EACH SINGLE LINK IN THE ROOM/SYSTEM AUDIO CHAIN.

The target it self permit that you lost the minimum information you can and that at the same time you add the least information that was not created in the recording process but generated through the playback one.

That was why tubes are forbidden for me as all metal undamped tonearm and poor cartridge trackers and many other things as can be that in a system with passive speakers the owner owns no self powered subwoofers. The list is to long to analize it here as is why tubes are a forbidden item for that precise target.
Yes, we have to look for something that does not exist: PERFECTION but at least to stay nearest to it.

So, when any one of us fulfill the target to in true mantain at minimum the system/room distortions or added information we will stay nearer to the recording and then to the LIVE experience too.

Tha’s all.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @analogluvr : """ your preference for digital and solid state tells me that you listen with your head and not your heart. ..................................................................
You may have spent a lot of time studying these things but you need to spend more listening and trusting your heart and feelings while listening.""

If in any audio sytem what I’m listening does not moves me then I stop to listened. MUSIC is " feelings/emotion ", as you I know very well and understand your point.

For years I was a tube lover and owned, listened in my system and in other systems the tube electronics you can name it. I was a lover.

Many times want it to come back to SS and every time I intented was dissapointed with, I never gave a good opportunity and in those years SS was not like today where we have several alternatives of very good SS designs that makes the differences.

With SS alternative happens the same as with digital: gentlemans/audiophiles as you have a deep foundation in analog and tubes and shows it through all your posts but and this BUT is what makes the difference with all of you: BUT almost no one gives a true opportunity and the effort need it to SS and digital.

What means a serious " opportunity ": means that we have to invest money on SS or digital, it’s not that we listen to it for a few hours or few days NO, we have to be serious about. But it’s not only that we have to invest on it but we have to make a new whole system/room SET-UP with the new items.

We can’t imagine that SS or digital will works only connecting it, no it’s a mistake to do it that way. Both technologies hide almost no one " errors " in our set-up as happens with analog and tubes. With SS and digital there is no way to hide the system/room " mistakes " that exist all over the audio chain at each single link. We have to remember that each one system is fine tunned ( in this case ) to those tubes or analog.

Now, when we have a really fine tunned room/system with SS/digital then the analog experiences shines on it as never before and we are truer to the live experience.

Is very dificult to give an opinion ( that I respect. ) when we have not true and serious first hand today experiences on the subjects.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
Dear @analogluvr  @frogman : Each one of us has to do our job. Belive me that I did it for years not months and in all this time I learned a lot.

Unfortunatelly there is no rules about , we have to learn and stay/try to mantain a self training to have sucess. Not easy task and is more of knowledge level  that we go step by step acquiring than too much money to spend. Money is guarantee of nothing, always need it but......

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
Dear @chakster : I don't think that PL of SS post in this thread never because is me who started this thread. Is a long and " old " history " that was developed precisely because his unique Strain Gauge system.

As you said was Panasonic ( Matushita group member as Technics. ) whom first appeared in the market with a Strain Gauge cartridge that conformed with the eq. RIAA standard.
After Panasonic came Stax, Sao Win and some one else. All of them conforming according that RIAA standards.

Srain Gauge cartridge concept is in true the best way by a wide margin to make a cartridge transducer, no doubt about. It's not perfect but better than MM/MI/MC technology.

Unfortunatelly is not free of trade-offs and the main one is that needs an external " electronics " that must be a real top design and that was not happened in those times as it does noth happens today with the SS one.

Now, when I read and listen for the first time to the SS Strain gauge I did not know that its design just was made it with out conforming the RIAA standards.
Latter on and reading the SS site I learned that critical RIAA subject with that Strain gauge system and I knew it because in their site they showed a chart/diagram where every one can observe that the SS cartridge was designed with out that RIAA eq. in mind. PL arguments many things about trying to compensates for that " mistake ".

Through my posts in two different SS Strain Gauge threads he posted that he never be again to accept any cartridge re-tipping to my cartridges ( I was a customer from him with 4-5 of my cartridges in the past. ). Btw, sooner after those threads he deleted the link in his site that showed the differences  between the SS curve and the RIAA curve.

Here is one of those threads where he thougth that I was attaking him when in reality I was looking for direct and precise answers about because I want it to know why I listened what I listen the first time I heard his Strain Gauge cartridge. I have to say that today I don't know if the SS Strain Gauge electronics in the system confoms according the RIAA standards:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/would-like-to-hear-from-strain-gauge-owners#3

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @frogman : """  Absolutely not true. """

Look, when we have a 2db deviations in a signal curve as the RIAA against " no deviations " then we have a different kind of sound . Please tell me why that is not true when the fundamental notes and all its harmonics developed are different in between those signal curves.

The digital players in those times was not using the today ADC/DAC levels, even that I posted that with the begin of the DVDA I learned that something was happening in favor of the digital experience.

In the other side on that strain gauge discussion my point is that PL was not saying in his site the true behind its design. He was telling something different to the people and to the customers. That's all. I ask him by email and never gave me an answer and was through my self research/learning work that I " discovery " the whole " thing ". 

As I said, I don't know if today finally that starin gauge cartridge conform the RIAA eq.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
Dear @frogman : Yes, original performance is the same but it's home reproduction sound is different.

I understand perfectly your point of view. Now, every kind of expression/musicality/rythm comes in what the microphones pick-up during the recording process and I mean everything. That " everything " is reflected in inherent way through measurements as frequency response and many other kind of. We can't say that inside a frequency response chart content only numbers, well in the chart are numbers but inside those numbers comes " everything ".

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
Dear @harold-not-the-barrel : The eq. RIAA curve is measured between 20hz and 20khz and when the recording signal in the LP grooves goes inside the phono stage is applied the inverse eq. RIAA that gives as a result a flat frequency as was in the recording process before the RIAA eq.

Any minute deviation in that inverse RIAA eq. makes that what we have inside the phono stage does not mimic the recorded signal. Those inverse RIAA eq. deviations affects not only to a discrete frequencies where are those deviations but affects almost third complete octaves. We have to remember that we are talking of a curve.

Now, normally a decent phono stage comes with RIAA deviation of 0.1db that in theory is near of what was in the recording.

By words coming by the SS owner ( you can read it in the link I posted. ) he measured a deviation in the straing gauge self curve of a swing of  2 full dbs. ( that per sé is terrible. ) between 50hz and 12khz where below 50hz and and above 12khz the deviation is even greater.
Unfortunatelly he deleted from his site the chart/diagram of the italian reviewer that measured the starin gauge curve.

Of course that with that very high deviations levels there is no more flat frequency results.

I don't know if today he fixed this critical subject or not. The other issue is that with SS electronics you can't use other cartridge but SS starin gauge, again I don't know if this was fixed or not.

Btw, through my posts in those two " old " threads my attitude was not to questioning the SS owner his choosed trade-offs with his design. No one can do it because it was his privilege to do everything he wants it.

What I was " quetioning " was that he said in his site that the starin gauge design coincide en natural way with the RIAA inverse eq. and looking for those italian diagramas ( deleted by him from his site. ) and as he posted that statement is totally untrue because it does not conforms in any way with the inverse RIAA eq.

What I made it in those threads after learned about was to disclose that critical characteristic/subject, that's all. I never try to questioning him in any way.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
Dear @frogman : Thank’s to the AHEE 99% of true music lovers/audiophiles as you don’t takes very seriously measurements and specs in audio items, as a fact almost all just does not care about. What they care is what they are listening with out knowing that what they are listening is a huge clown from what recording microphones pick up.

All kind of measurements has a precise meaning and when you combine several of those measurements and its charts/diagrams you can see its in between relationship and you can have an explanation on the why’s ( not all why’s. but many. ) you are listening that ( example. ): transients are a little soft or slower than in other different system, or diffrences in the midrange in between two audio systems or brigthness or why the bass is not tigth or almost whatever is happening in a room/audio system.

To understand all those we have first to learn the stand alone meaning of each kind of measurements and its charts/diagrams, then we have to learn which ones of those measurements when are " looking/analized " tell us a more " complex " information that gives a more shiny ligth of the whole room/system behavior.

Normal specs are ( example, not all. ): slew rate, RIAA eq, frequency response and its deviations, dynamic range, crosstalk, separation levels, common mode refection, input overload, input impedance, output impedance, gain, different kind of distortions: THD, IMD, FIM, etc,, electrical impedance, phase, lateral/vertical response, step response, spectral decay, square waves, etc, etc.

Now, the whole understanding of measurements/specs and charts/diagrams can’t tell you if that room/system will like you. Maybe in the near future some one can develop a mathematics model to achieve that.

Through all the relationship on those measurements/charts comes everything was pick-up by the recording/playback process and ovbiously with what left of that expression/musicality you taled about and that I agree with you.

So, maybe is time for some of us to begin to learn on what till today is a "demon " for audiophiles when in reality is a " false demon " that the corrupted AHEE with success teached all of us for many years, was them whom build that demon when in reality is a totally and usefull TOOL when you learn how to use it. That’s all. Time to learn.

Here one of many " tools "/analyzers used to obtain audio/digital measurements ( not only J.Atkinson use it but are tools over the world. Even we used ( something similar. ) to measures our self design: Essential 3160 phonolinepreamps. )):

https://www.axiomtest.com/Analyzers/Audio,-Distortion-and-Sound-Analyzers/Audio-Precision/SYS_2322A/...

A target for any manufacturer must be that both channels measures the same like in my Essential or my 20.6's monobloks. Any one can make a test in your own system and will found out that both channels in any single audio item measures different at each channel !  !  !, yes I know that that is what we are accustom to. I think it's time to be better audiophiles , more DEMANDING for.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
Dear @invictus005: Yes, the Series III can goes with out problem with your Michel TT and is very good match with high compliance cartridges. It has only 5 grs. on effective mass but is very good quality construction. Is a very well damped tonearm that's something really desirable.

You can't wrong with this SME. Other advantage is that it's an interchangable arm wand that permits and easy change of cartridges.

Good recomendation for whom gave you . It's better tonearm that what we can imagine. As other SME of those old times its bearing is balls/knife.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.



Btw, @chakster  the only " but or if " that I see on those pictures are those terrible tubes that ( it does not matters what you think or like. ) only degrade the cartridge signal .

If I was you that I'm not my question will be: why take so much care on TT/cartridge/tonearms/set up if those tubes destroy everything? 


Dear @invictus005: The Technics is an exceptional tonearm, you can't be wrong with. Go a head.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
Dear @chakster : """  but i was pretty serious about the choice of vintage low microphonic, extremely low noise military NOS tubes from the 60s or early 70s (Telefunken, Sylvania, Matsushita ... )  ... """

you really like s me and I have respecto for you but your statement and " nothing " is almost the same.
 Real and true problem has one name ( modern or vintage. ) TUBES, that's all.

If you want to grow up to a serious system quality level performance just forgeret about those First Watt amps. 
Through my experiences maybe the best job that N.Pass did it was when he designed his amps using bipolar transistors and one of those great amps that I can recomend to you is the 550e. Yes, it's extremely heavy and beatiful design with a top quality level excecution.

Listen to me: YOU CAN'T EVER TOUCH NOT EVEN NEAR OR APPROACH IT THE REAL TOP QUALITY AUDIO SYSTEM PERFORMANCE WITH OUT TWO SELF POWERED SUBWOOFERS ( if you use passive speakers. ) AND CERTAINLY NEVER USING TUBES, period.


Regards and enjoy the music NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
Dear @chakster : """   i just don't want to bother my good neighbours with extremely deep bass.  """

Who told you that those both self powered subs in stereo fashion primary/main target was for that?, main target in any passive stereo home system is not that. If that's what you think then you have a misunderstood.



"""   10-incher promises to do sufficient 40Hz bass to not require a subwoofer, i'm fine with it now. """


Again a misunderstood by your part, obviously that your system needs those subs but because that misunderstood you don't know it yet.


Please read here if you want to approach the true high end listening experience or stay inside mediocrity:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/do-you-think-you-need-a-subwoofer/post?postid=310058#310058 



Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
Dear @chakster : """   I do have an interest in and admiration for the First Watt...""

Admiration? why? what you are looking for? do you want to improve the quality sound system levels you have ?


"""  i only need about 8-15w power for my 101db speakers by Zu Audio.. "

so what? you can use a 15w amp or a 500w. That high speaker efficiency does not determines the amp power you need. What determines the amp you need is the quality level system performance you are looking for.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
Dear @lewm : Maybe I'm a little " slow " to understand the tube technology with or with out SUT.

Now, it's useless to go in deep about. What's important is the end result that in an all tube amp design ( OTL or not ) those results are really poor and with phonolinepreamp are even worst.

In the  " Denon S1 " thread I posted how bad measures a 80K+ tube phonolinepreamp and in that same thread I posted the same for a very well regarded OTL amp. I appreciate your advise but as I said is useless, it does not helps in the main subject that's overall tube technology quality performance level against today good SS technology. This is the matters.

You  can't separate main measures from music/sound reproduction in a home system and can't tell that it does not matters because " I like it ": frequency range, noise levels, THD, IMD, slew rate, output impedance, RIAA deviation, trusty units, etc, etc.

Please remember that we are living in 2018 not in 1965 year. You are happy with tubes, go a head. Any one choose if can live in the " mistake " or likes to live inside each day reality.

Follow in your dream and do it a favor and don't wake up because you can " die " of " horror ".

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
Dear @willemj : You are rigth, we can use " monster amps " with whatever speakers as horns and the like that are really high efficiency.

Dop you know whom gave the advise to use SET tubes ( 3watts-8watts. ) with horns and the like?

No one but the corrupted AHEE. That's why exist not only audiophiles as chakster but manufacturers that still gives that " advise ".

Shame of that corrupted AHEE, for say the least.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
Dear @invictus005:  Good. As a fact the Michel TT almost always are paired with SME tonearms. The 309 is very good one and has dteachable headshell and is a low mass tonearm, really good one. You don't need other tonearm vintage or not.

Very good too about your choose of SS amp, there is no other way to do it.
Goldmund is only one of the great SS amp designs ever.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
@chakster : You are not " some of us " whom could be interested in some of the Grace history.

Example , I'm not interested in the ones you own but you can post about when " check them out ". Why? because " some of us " could be interested. Tha's all about.

R.


Dear @jls001: No, it's not. Maybe the stylus tip in your sample needs to change it or to put more care in the stylus tip and LP record surface cleaning or something with the cartridge suspension. It's not easy to be very precise about with out have the cartridge on hand to listen it.

The MF 200 is a great performer and better than the top of the line MF 100.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
Dear @jls001: The theretical resonance frequency in your combination tells is around 4hz that’s way down. I don’t know for sure if that can have an influence in what you are experienced about but the point of @cardoverall makes sense.

As you said listen those recordings that you already know are more silent and come back again.

Now. even that the MF 200 is a low inductance design you need to try different capacitance and impedance loading because these parameters has influence on that specific regards. Don't change both at the same time, start with capacitance.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
Dear @invictus005: Rigth from the begins of the Black I had it and is a very good performer but the Concorde here  is almost a collector item.

R.
Dear friends: As you know almost from my begining audio life I always am in " love a deep love " with Ortofon whom it's celebrating is first century and this is a great news for all analog audiophiles because Ortofon always celebrates its significative anniversaries with " something " for us and this obviously is not the exception and  comes with a remembrance of the really good Concorde model: any one remember it?. Well here it's with the today Ortofon huge knowledge and skills levels:

https://www.ortofon.com/concorde-century-p-862?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=HiFi%20NL%20May%202...

Yes, I will pull the triger with out doubt. Time to celebrate ! !

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
Dear @halcro  /friends   : For me it's a very good news to know about the JVC 4MD series.

I still own at least 15 cartridges that I never mounted and one of them is the 4MD-20X. Will be interesting to listen it and make some comparisons.

the 4MD-20X was made by Audio Technica for JVC and understand with beryllium cantilever, as afact the the cartridge body/top plate is similar to the 20SS. Obviously that the 4MD-20X was designed/builded to a specific market price point.
Probably all the 4MD series were made it by AT that's a good " thing ".

I will share my experiences with the 20X that I own in new condition. We will see.


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
Dear friends: In the last 3-4 months I made two significant up-date in my audio systems, one was a major change in my phonolinepreamp and the other was in the external speaker crossovers. 

When I was thinking that I have " all " in my system I was surprised for the higher level quality achieved by those changes in the system.

Then and due that my system was transformed for the better I started to listen some of my top MM cartridges and the first was the Acutex line: the M and the LPM.
The models in the Acutex line that I tested ( 320/315M and 315/320LPM ) sounds really fantastic and better than ever where I confirm that the best Acutex ( by a " hair ". ) is the 320 but even the 315M outperforms the 320LPM and even my 315LPM that was " refreshed " by VDH.

After Acutex great samples I mounted my Stanton 981HZ with original Pickering similar stylus and tested against the original Stanton stylus and confirm that if we have the 981 by Stanton the best way to achieve its top quality performance level is with out the Stanton original stylus but with the similar one coming from Pickering where the stylus/cantilever holder is way less resonant than the stock Stanton stylus holder.
The differences in quality performance level are not small ones but it makes a " difference " for the better not only different performance but better performance. No single Stanton model can beats my Stanton/Pickering combination, a must to have.

Of course that like in the Acutex I 'm listening how good is this Stanton 981HZ, formidable contender.

This week I will stay listening the Stanton and due the @halcro JVC findings I will switch next week to the 4MD-20X and will share my experiences with.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @lewm : Good, avoiding as much resonances we can goes to a much better quality performance levels everywhere.

Yeas, that Acutex is a champ with out doubt but my 981HZ/Pickering it's too..

R.
Dear @secretguy: Well, trhough this long thread and over the years I posted more than once about ADC Pritchard designs. Till today I never listened an ADC cartridge that performs bad.

The XLM is very good and I own its MK3 version as the ZLM too, both a must to have.
The more audiophile knowledge ( vintage audiophiles. ) goes with two of the best Pritchard ever designs that I own too; ADC Astrion and the Sonus Dimension 5.

Here is the man:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/peter-pritchard

He was in GE at his began.

Here the Astrion:

http://www.hifi-classic.net/review/adc-astrion-376.html 

but the real ADC " losted link "/secret belongs to one of his older designs that came with 50cu ! on compliance. I'm refering to the great great quality performer the : ADC 26 with elliptical stylus tip, from the same series exist the 25 stylud tip blue dot that's elliptical too but not as smaller radius as the red dot in the 26 and the the 27 with a little lower compliance: 40cu.

The one to go is the ADC 26. I remember when I bougth it several years ago and when received I had not much good expectations on its quality performance but just from the very first moment that began to ride the LP grooves I knew that this ADC was and is something radical special one. I love this cartridge and when I bougth it the cartridge arrived not with the red dot stylus but with the blue dot and that's why I learned about and I was lucky enough to get an original new red dot replacement stylus. Even today we can find out the original red dot for around 125.00.

The ADC red dot is a must to listen it, as I said " the best close secret " in the ADC/Sonus history.


R.
Dear friends: For some reasons through the thread years almost all of us were " concentrated/focus " in " only " some specific/regarded cartridges but as ADC exist several other cartridges that we have to listen or to own because is worth to do it.

As ADC and Acutex the Stanton and Pickering are cartridges that for many of us have no interest on it and I don’t know why.

Same happens with names as : Micro Acoustics, Empire other than the 4000D3, B&O that are exceptional, Sonus, Philips, VDH,  Nagatron, Azden or Elac between others.

All those cartridge names deserves our attention and never is to late try to find out some of them, I’m sure any of you will be satisfied with its quality level performance.

Maybe is time for you to re-start the cartridge hunting and for me to listen to all those cartridges I still own.


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
Dear @lewm : Pritchard was a believer of very high compliance design to improve tracking abilities and lowering distortions. The targets has good foundation.

In the rigth/mtched tonearm the DC are very good performers.

As you I have many many years with out touching an ADC/Sonus cartridge but that will change because are in my re-listen list.

I want to listen the JVC 4MD-20X but my 981HZ/Pickering just don't let me to do it because with my up-dated system it's a wonderful sound what is achiving through it. I'm sure that your today well dampened 981LZ is very good performer too, I will try with mine too.

@lewm I'm not fully accustomed for what I listen in my system today, almost everyday i swithch on I try to hear something through the speaker tweeters ( efficiency 95-96 db. ) and is just dead silenc and dead silence no matter what: if I switch on first the phonolinepreamp than the amps or the other way around and at full volume.
I had several experiences about in many audio systems top systems and never experienced something like that. As a fact the first thing I do when listening for the first time n audio system is to approach the near I cn to the high frequency drivers and till today always hear/sense " something ".

nyway, for me it's time to re-listen my crtridges nd listen too for the first time some of them like the JVC.

R.
Dear friends: BSR uses all the Pritchard patent cartridge designs. So the " soul "/motor of the Astrion comes from PP.

BSR was whom bougth ADC from PP.

R.
Der @jeff1225 : I never tested or listened in my system. The Golden U is the one to go in that old ADC series that what has in common is a really high output level that goes from 6.1mv to over 8mv.

The U model comes with a very good elliptical stylus tip but I can't say nothing about its quality performance.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
Dear @jeff1225 @secretguy: In  a very long cartridge comparisons chart ( over 100+ ) mde it by those old times reviewers the DC LM 3 ws rnked as: excellent, the top ranking. In that comparison you can find almost all MM mnufacturers. 

I own -3 XLM samples and obviously time to listen it.

R.
Dear @lewm: The MAX-237 comes with low effective mass arm wand and is superb. Two other great low effective mass tonearms that you or any one can find out easily comes from the Audio Technica group ( AT/Signet. ), I owned and can attest its very high quality performance/excecution:


https://www.vinylengine.com/library/signet/xk35.shtml

https://www.vinylengine.com/library/audio-technica/at-1100.shtml

these are true low effective mass designs: 5grs. and 6grs. respectively. Almost nothing can competes with. The bearing friction is as low as only 4mg that's even better than the EPA100MK2 ! ! There is a second model in the Signet line the XK50 that's similar to the AT 1100.


and here the MAX-237:

https://www.vinylengine.com/library/micro-seiki/max-237.shtml


@jeff1225 @secretguy : that cartridge comparisons was really a hard task for the reviewers not only because so many cartridges under test but because they tested 20 diferent performance quality characteristics, not only 3 or four but 20.


R.

Dear @halcro : I always say ignorance/knowledge levels in each one of us is what is behind our posts. As higher ignorance levels as worst the information we are spreading here/there and elsewhere and these facts makes a lot of damage to the new comers in analog and even to other low knowledge levels audiophiles.

I’m in agreement on your post but you have to remember that in the " old " thread years I was not an enthusiast to make changes/switch in between two cartridge models and certainly not to retip it. Hot discussions about that, that was the past. Unfortunatelly always are " audiophiles " that just nor learn, pity.

But through the time I learned and I know today that you and the other gentlemans were all rigth with those " Frankestein " or with the Jico SAS improvement and not only that but that I learned that the main importance in any cartridge is precesily the cartridge motor.

Lyra is a good example of that: the Lyra Kleos and the Atlas shares the same main motor design with variations on that design and obviously in the normal variriations on other parts as coild wire or cantilever/stylus or output level but the motor stays there but at different price point/market.
I owned the Lyra Clavis DC that used a cerraloy cantilever ( ceramic alloy ) and was more or less good but when I changed that cantilever for Boron the change makes a huge difference putting at other quality level. I know very well the Titan and Titan i and I bougth the Kleos looking for something as the Titan but was and is totally different because is a new motor design and I was thinking that nothing could outperform it till I listen the Etna SL and the Atlas pinacle of that design technology.

If we own good cartridge motors then we can make that that good cartridge converts in an " outstanding " one with new cantilever/stylus shape/dampers and suspension fine tunning.

I use the JICO SAS with Shure and Garrot cartridges and agree with you about and that agreement confirms what I’m saying.

Btw, thank’s to brougth here the JVC 4MD-20X, this week I will post my first hand experiences with.

Btw, first hand experiences is part of the name of the game in audio.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
Dear @roberjerman @orpheus10 : Yes, no matter what MM are high inductance cartridges where MI has really lower inductance: 2-3/5 times lower that the MM inductance.

""  It slows transient speed. And the loose suspension used allows for a form of frequency-modulated (FM) distortion....""

that's correct and any one can attest it in a comparison evaluation where no MM can even the trasient speed of a well regarded LOMC cartridge not even the MI that are closer to. FIM distortion is higher too.

I remember that I posted here that the MM/MI cartridges sounds with lower distortions than the best LOMC ones and remember too that J.Carr posted that was the other way around but on those old times my enthusiams/emotions just closed my eys/ears about.

Btw,  yeras ago SS was licensed by B&O not only to be an official B/O rettiper but to use its patents to produce/build its own cartridges. I own B&O cartridges and listen it SS top model and none compares against top LOMC like the VDH or Etna SL.

Every manufacturer is deep founded in what they build and have on sale.

Now, in cartridges the main subject is the " sum of the design parts " and its quality level excecution. One characterisitc can't says everything.


R.
Dear @lewm : I unknow why owning  an active phonolinepreamp you are doing so many questions about a headamp/pre-pre that only degrades the LOMC cartridge signal against your unit and even that yours has tubes in the signal path.

Any external SUT or headamp needs additional cables, connectors and cable soldered joints from where the delicated LOMC cartridge signal must pass and where suffer severe degradations.

Now, ZYX must know that a cartridge is a balanced device and its unit is not balanced design ! ! go figure and if you look inside is full of connecting cables instead to be all soldered directly to the board. It's that ZYX things that we are analog " rookies ". In its Artisan model its RIAA deviation is a very high 0.4db swing when any decent phono stage comes with a +,-  0.1db.

ZYX has very good cartridge designs and I think that you can attest it with your Universe.

Many things makes no sense here for say the least.

R.
Dear @lewm : """   might degrade the signal a bit, """

only a " bit " , seriously? you can listen to the Etna against the ETNA SL that has a little lower output, maybe two round less wire at the cartridge coils ( I don't know for sure. ) and you can listenan important difference for the better.

So, forme the degradation of what we are talking about is not a " bit " but greater than that. Think about.

R.
Dear friends: Just imagine any cartridge signal passing and traveling " hundred of miles " inside that unit, we can have only heavy degradation. That item was designed to a price point market average/mediocre market.

Universe II through that item? just make no sense.

If we use an average/mediocre audio items that's exactly what we listen through our room/system but to each his own.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
Dear @cleeds : Sometimes things are so obviously that you just don't need to listen it and your self knowledge levels/wide experiences makes the differences for you don't need to listen it.

R.
Dear @orpheus10 : Grado merans quality. I own and owned several vintage Grado cartridges and never disapointed me. So even that I did not listen the today Grado models I know for sure that are very good and that's why you are so happy with. Congratulations !.

R.

Dear friends: I already listen for a few days my JVC 4MD-20X MM cartridge that as I posted was manufactured by Audio Technica expressely to JVC specs/characteristics.


Comes with Shibata stylus shape and berylium cantilever and with a 2mv of output level, as you can imagine is a high compliance design. It came from the 70’s years. Yes, loaded at 100k.


My sample is a NOS unit and after mounted and listen with a VTF of 1.6grs I noted that’s taller than other " normal " cartridges. VTA/SRA a little up at the tail.


In the first minutes to listen it it sounds dull with almost no real high frequency range even that in its frequency response chart showed a tilt from around 17khz and up.


It took several hours for the cartridge " opened " to shows at its best. It took way more time that other MM cartridges. I have to say that the cantilever/stylus holder makes very good grip against the cartridge body that lower resonance/vibrations in between, this is a good thing that I appreciated.


Even that came from AT it does not mimic other top AT cartridges and if I need to compare it maybe the nearest sound is the one from the great AT24.


Anyway, overall is a very nice finding because I own it from several years and never listened till halcro just posted about. It’s one of the lowest distortion levels on all the MM/MI crtridges I experienced and where at both frequency extremes are nearest to the quality performance that comes in a good LOMC cartridge, especially in the bass range where shows a tigth and fast decay time.


At the begening I was feeling that the cartridge was not very good at high frequencies as if losted " drama " but it is not that way. Things are that that lower any kind of distortions makes we can hear that way, so I gone a little up with the listen SPL at around 1db+ and now I can say that this 4MD-20X is a keeper/winner and over the future time due to its great " motor " a strong candidate for a boron/Ogura/MR today replacement. Yes, it’s that good.


Highly recomended and a must to own/listen it. Not very dificult to find out, I don’t know if still exist the ebay link for the cartridge sale that I posted its link a few days ago. I think was/is in NOS condition.


Was a true refreshment for me. Now, that I want to listen other cartridges I just can’t because this JVC just capture me ! and I want to following with. No, it's not a top today LOMC unit or alike to but nearest than I imagined.


Regrads and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.