Dear @invictus005: There are better quality performer cartridges than the ATML 170/180. These are really good but IMHO not at the very top .
Regards and enjoy the Music Not Distortions,
R.
Regards and enjoy the Music Not Distortions,
R.
Who needs a MM cartridge type when we have MC?
Dear @lewm : I think there is a mix-up down the Clearaudio cartridges. In those time I " fall in love " with the Virtuoso black wood body that was and is manufactured by Audio Technica. Today is it a good performer?, yes it's a good one but several vintage MM cartridges and LOMC ones are very good too inside that " context " you are talking about. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear @chakster : As @lewm pointed out all depends on the " context " we listen and in that context is critical the real validity that has each one of us test comparison process. I had at the same time the CS, 981LZ, 981HZ and the best quality performer cartridge was and is the 981HZ with the Pickering latest stereohedron stylus ( in theory the same as in the 981 top ones. ). I sold the CS100, it's not at top level and not only that Stanton is superior but other cartridges too. I think that it's more the " glamour " that surrounded in its time on the CS100 that its real quality level performance. As always and for you the important subject is your ownn opinion. Don't you think? Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear @jessica_severin: Even that in the thread was discussed in a wide way seems to me that today gentlemans like chaster enthusiast still has a misunderstood on the X1MK2. The top of the line and the best quality performer certainly is not the Victor model but the one with the JVC denomination that comes in the cartridge top plateBoth cartridges, JVC/Victor made it by JVC and the one to look for is the: JVC X1MK2 that due that you are in Japan sooner or latter maybe you can put your hands on. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear chakster: " This is just my opinion. " Problem with your opinion is that you can’t attest ( first hand ) on the quality level performance of the Victor against the JVC because you did not test both in your system as I did it. Btw, I tested too the Z1 with JICO SAS and certainly is not in the same league. Anyway, good history information. regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear chakster: If I remember ( too many years. ) David posted somewhere the differences in specs on those models. Maybe you can check with what you have for a coincidence ( he found out differences when you stated are the same. ) but at the end what’s important is to make tests in between. Btw, jessica@severin: griffithds posted on those times talking on the same subject: " They are btw all mounted on magnesium head shells and I have no intentions of un-mounting them only to see whether they are labeled JVC or Victor. "" and he never attested it. Was there where he said that were differences in those cartridge performance. He posted these after what you read it. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear @lewm : Good point. I don't have any more the 981LZS sample but for me the adding gain stage needs for the LZS makes a difference against the HZS and that's all. I own the 981HZS that I use with the original Pickering stylus ( same as the 981. ) and this one is better quality performer than either: the LZS and the HZS with Stanton stylus. Is something to listen and to have/own. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear @chakster : The JVC I speak is the one labeled X-1 at the top cartridge plate, the model is: JVC X-1 MK2 and is different on what you are attesting. The side labeled is different. X1 JVC model is the top in the JVC series where the X2 is one step down and not as what @jessica_severin posted. In your information the X1 has lower output and this means lower inductance too that's always better for a better quality performance level. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear @chakster : Yeras ago I explain it in wide way and I don't have the time to get back again. The JVC X-1 MK2 is different and at the front of the stylus holder statest is for 4-channels, even the stylus holder is different and larger than the normal one. You don't own the JVC X-1 MK2, sorry. Enough. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear @jls001: First than all and before you try to make the fine tunning that great MF200 needs at least 30-40 hours for the carrtridge sette down and from here use 100k-100pf and start to play with tiny changes in SRA/VTF and when be near of what you want then make tiny changes only in capacitance. That cartridge is a reference level one. Congratulations. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear @steverino @jessica_severin: Audio Technica was a not so small corporation where Signet was one of its independent divisions. Over the years AT was developed new MM/LOMC cartridges, tonearms, microphones, headphones, analog and digital acccesories and many other audio items inclusive TT, LP records, analog test items, etc., etc.designs. For many years nothing can touched the 20SS ( in the MM " land ". ) and even today very hard to beat. A new generation of MM cartridges appeared when appeared the OCC ( magical wire " and then the AT ML180 with different stylus shape to the Shibata 20SS. As @chakster I was secure that the 180 was the best of the best in AT history ( I had the same enthusiasm have chakster but over time things " change " and I understand everything in better way with a better audio system quality performance levels. ) but from some time now ceratinly it's not that way not only that it can't outperform the 20SS ( it's almost at the same level. ) and the problem with the 170/180 ML is that ceramic top plate in the cartridge body that unfortunatelly is way resonant. I respect the chakster opinion but I'm in disagreement in this specific regards. In it's never end research for better cartridge performers AT arrived to the AT24/25 ( 24 a stand alone version and the 25 with integrated headshell. ) that is a cartridge to own and to listen it. The AT 24 comes with a totally different cartridge body as what was been " normal " for AT but not only that but the cantilever/stylus assembly was made it in metal and screwed in the cartridge body where this alone characteristics was a real huge improvement for quality cartridge performance over the normal cartridge cantilever/stylus plastic assemblies everywhere. The Signet division started to make the same with those models all of you name it and where the real " deal " is the TK10ML MK2, this one and the AT 24 has very similar designs. It's a good cartridge the TK7Lc? yes it's but exist the 9 and the 10 and the 10MK2 that are superior designs and as I said the AT 24. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear @harold-not-the-barrel @chakster : The AT 20SS is almost the same AT20SLa, difference is that the 20SS is hand selected and its quality level performance is a better one. Btw, in AT line dos not exist that super shibata stylus but just Shibata. """ For Audio-Technica engineers this is ANTI-RESONANCE CERAMIC BASE ! """ Years ago I was totally convinced that ceramic was a great material for cartridges, tonearms and headshells . As a fact I mounted my 20SS in the SAEC ceramic headshell and I was really exited by this combination till over the time I learned was not in that way. I mounted too the 170/180 in that ceramic headshells thinking will be a good match but it was not. Maybe you can remember that Graham puts its money on ceramic material for its arm wands and disappeared in a short time. ceramic is " attractive " as material but nothing more than that. The only cartridge I know where ceramic makes almost no harm to the audio signal is the Ortofon designs where all cartridge body came from ceramic in a very special body shape that contributes to leave the resonances almost out of the " equation ". Unfortunatelly that does not happens with the 170/180. In the other side @timeltel : In those old times Audio Technica had 5 big facilities out side Japan: one in USA, two in Germany ( Dusseldorf/Frankfurt ), one in England and one in México. In all its facilites the name was: Audio Technica and in the case of USA was inside those AT facilities where was the Signet Division and Precept but all cartridges were made in Japan. In those out side Japan facilities AT manufactured very specific products of is very wide catalogue. Example here in México ( that was the only country/place where the name was not AT but: Autec Mexico. ) they started to manufacturer microphones where the 95% of the production was for export and same way of work in the other countries with its different builded products. Even in USA they ( in different times. ) where installed in two different places: Fairlawn AND sTOW IN oHIO. Why I'm so sure about, well and I think that in this thread ( I can't remember where. ) I posted that here in México ( the only facility where happened. ) Audio Technica started its business/production not alone but in a join venture with a partner Mr. Guajardo that by huge coincidence I knew for other matters and one time I want it to say Hola! was when he told me his new enterprise joining AT and was Mr. Guajardo the gentleman that gave me the whole support to have access to all AT/Signet/Telarc catalogue. I was in contact with him for at least one time each week for years, was in those AT facilities where I knew top Japanese Directors that came time to time to suvervise the business/production. I really had the opportunity to know AT because of that because in those times no single AT cartridge was on sale in México and not only from AT but for other manufacturers. Btw, TK9 uses berylium cantilever where the TK10 came with Boron and MK2 with the " new " AT Micro-Line stylus shape against the LC one. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear @chakster : Yes, I know very well the information in that link, as a fact the very first time here in Agon was me whom posted. Now, I respect KA opinion ( who pass on. ) but it was only that and his system and priorities way different from mines. That information was many years ago and today almost all of us have better audio systems. On the AT/Signet subject even in something so " simple " as can be the small cartridge operation manual it was printed in Japan and you can read it at the Signet manuals. Anyway, impórtant issue is not the " history " but that all of we discovery all those gems and we are still enjoying ! Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear @harold-not-the-barrel : I tested my 170/180 cartridges with several headshell types and where I found out the best performance in my system was with the Audio Technica MS-10 that is a magnesium one with damping rubber in the top plate. @chakster , in those times some one in AT was in love with ceramic that was the material they used in a pretty all ceramic TT mat, even they made it for Audio Craft too. Obviously I bougth the AT and was satisfied till I learned about. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear @lewm : """ as the TK1Ea and TK3Ea used to have the regular stereo generator of the initial AT120 family models (780 Ohm/490 mH), while the TK5Ea, TK7Ea and TK7LCa used to sport a higher inductance variant with 800 Ohm/550 mH). """ this information comes from one of the VE gurus and is confirmed for and AA guru: """ as the TK1Ea and TK3Ea used to have the regular stereo generator of the initial AT120 family models (780 Ohm/490 mH), while the TK5Ea, TK7Ea and TK7LCa used to sport a higher inductance variant with 550 mH).............................................................................................................................. The 350mH motor is the lowest inductance MM offered by AT. In the past the Signet TK9, 10 series and the AT22 through 25 were 85mH. I had a TK10ML II back in the day. It is an exceptional cart, but as you might imagine could be a nightmare mated with an old phono section stuck at 47K/225pF. """ """ The 7V was a modernized version of the Signet TK7LCa (Ea). """ and from the manual specs the 7v has 500 mH and is confirmed in this guru post in AC: """ Unlike the Signet TK7LCa (550mH) the 7V is 500mH ... """ So, seems to me that that 50mH in that brochure could has a print " mistake ". Other than the AT 24 series I don’t know any other MM with, not even in the AT line, inductance lower than 85 mH and this was achieved by Audio Technica. Btw, coil AC resistance in the 24 is 240 ohms. Moving iron and moving flux cartridge designs normally comes with lower inductance than the MMs. For example, the Astatic MF-200 has 90mH that's even lower than Glanz. AKG 25 comes with 170 mH. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear @dlcockrum : Yes, I still think that the Empire 4000D/III is a great performer and now that you mentioned MicroAcoustics design are really good but people just did not take in count and this could be a " mistake " for audiophiles because other that the model you own the 630 is a must to listen. Seems to me that today almost all people are around the JVC cartridges when still exist many " gems " that was discussed in this thread as: MicroAcoustics 630, B&O MMC 1/2, Azden P50 ( Nippon Azden was the builder of Acutex cartridges. ) , Acutex flat nose and many more. All these cartridges outperform the Signet TK7LC as it does the TK10MK2. Anyway, good to see that you like the Empire. Btw, Nippon Azden builded cartridges for Empire too. ). I don't know how many of you own the Azden 50 and if already gave it a good opportunity to shows at its best. Maybe , time to test it again. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear @fsellet: I think that what other people try to say it’s not that the Grace are not worth seeking but that there are other better options. As a fact is very dificult to fine out vintage or today cartridges that really can sound bad. Agree with you, Grace carttridges are very good performers. Now, the 9L is different in its output level that instead to be 3.5mv is 5.5 mv, that’s why the difference in the measures. 100k is the best way to load the F9 and that hf rising is welcomed because when the audio signal pass trhough the pho0no stage inverse RIAA eq the high frequencies goes down around 18-20 db to the infinite and this means that the eq. does not stops at 20khz but in theory goes over the RIAA eq. curve and this very high equalization makes that the high frequencies lost the airy and transparency and definition that in some ways it will be recovored by the high rising the 100k load shows at that chart. So, it’s not something wrong but as I said: welcomed. As a fact and for that same reason non flat cartridges but with hf rising over 20khz always ( every thing the same. ) sounds better and nothing wrong with that but an advantage. Many years ago Ortofon made several tests with their " golden ears " groups of audiophiles/musician and non-audiophiles gentlemans looking for the best frequency response in their cartridges and its conclusion was that over several of those controled tests all those gentlemans prefers the 3.5db hf rising in Ortofon models that the same cartridges with flat response. Till then that’s the way Ortofon designed and design its cartridges. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear @fsellet: """
Besides, the curve which appears on the manual is RIAA equalized and still rises in the upper frequencies... """ that's exactly why that rising in the hf are welcomed. When the inverse RIAA is applicated the eq. goes down/fall to infinite in those hf and this makes that hf and harmonics can't shows it at its best because that eq. The raising in hf is a good thing for any audiophile with a decent audio room/system. Anyway, good luck with your Grace's. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear @chakster : I don't think the Ruby is overpriced against that Grace aluminum cantilever used in the other models. In the other side we have to think that in all those time diamond/ruby/saphire cantilever materials was almost " exclusive for the very top models that came with a high tag on it. @lewm , the SS Ruby work in the Grace means is a different cartridge design because the compliance on the SS is not exactly the same as in the original Ruby, the SS comes with new suspension/dampers, the ruby cantilever overall dimensions are not exactly as in the original and the SS comes with different stylus tip. So, from the point of view of cartridge design both are way different cartridges and can't performs the same. Regards and enjoy the Music NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear @chakster @fsellet: Today conical stylus tip and aluminum in cantilevers is only an anachronism. Conical stylus shape is a way inferior to latest years line contact type stylus shapes. probably the only advantage on conical shape is that's less sensitive to SRA/VTA changes or other changes in the cartridge set up. Conical was the standard in the old times but that does not means is rigth. Things are that in those times line contact shapes was not appeared yet. Denon 103 was the cartridge that I think gave more popularity to the conical shape but we have to think that that Denon design was builded for broadcasting use not for audiophiles, even that some designers followed with out good reasons. Same with aluminum, today nothing justify the use of aluminum cantilever but only to have lower price tag. I know that some designers swears for conical and aluminum and for me is only because their ignorance levels on what are the cartridge needs and the why's of. The Ortofon SPU design is a design for the japanese market ( mainly ) where audiophiles have a very special and different idiosyncracy than many of us. Way of thinking very different. |
Dear @lewm : Any good cartridge design will performs good, as I said for vintage ( but valid too for any today design. ) cartridges: is really dificult to find out one that sounds bad. It's not weird for me that even today exist cartridge designs with conical stylus shape or aluminum cantilevers designed because they want a low price tag or because ignorance level of designers. What is weird for me is that exist " stupid " persons that today bougth it, obviously by ignorance so maybe not so stupid but very high ignorance levels. Now, what is true is that those vintage MM cartridges was and even today very good overall designs where some of those cartridges can compete with today LOMC cartridges and this is an achievement. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear @harold-not-the-barrel : You are safe at 1.5gr. where almost all F14 works. Only the F14BR ask for 1.3grs as ideal but even this one we can use 1.5grs. because is inside its VTF range. The other with different to ideal 1.5grs. is the F14-M-SP that works at 2.0 grs. Now, the optimum VTF will be defined by you and your room/audio system but will stay around 1.5grs. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear @fsellet: ""
There is much misinformation in this thread..""" Could be, I can't detect it yet. You posted that enjoyed reading the thread, I wonder why if is " much misinformation " here. If in reality exist that misinformation level that can be normal because in the thread is reflected each one of us ignorance levels. Now, even if it's true what you posted here I'm sure that every single post by each one gentleman that posted in the thread posted information to help all of us and thinking he had a good information and not misinformation. I think no one wants to " hit " here with misinformation. As I told you, if you have other internet forums where we can learn about all those misinformation please share with us because we want to be less and less ignorant in many audio subjects. I know some other net forums where Agon is the reference, maybe it's not according to you. Btw, I think that even if you do not give us the links of other " correct " forums will be apprecaited that you be specific by subjects where you found out all that " much misinformation ". Is time to learn and leave ignorance behind us. Will wait for it. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear @chakster : I owned a beauty item by Luxman and was the C 5000A. Champaigne color with wood top/below/sides wood, just a beautiful audio item. Things are that the " baby " came with both SUT's: 8020 and 8030 that were connected at the rear plate and very easy to change it depending of the gain we need it. For what I remember was very good phonolinepreamp that unfortunatelly gone several years ago. I can't say how it compares as a SUT against the Cotter MK2 one and is no surprise to me that " the guy " said is better than Cotter. Btw, Cotter SUT has more fame that true, is a good SUT ( almost all are. ) but nothing outstanding. Here you can see the C 5000A: http://audio-database.com/LUXMANALPINE-LUXMAN/amp/c-5000a-e.html http://liquidaudio.com.au/luxman-c-5000a-preamplifier-repair-restoration/ @lewm , the MC 2000 quality level performance is a result of the whole Ortofon care at designed it and its excecution and of course that its very high compliance is reflected in its excellent tracking abilities to pick up almost all the recorded information. Now, in those old times Ortofon as many other LOMC proponents manufacturers and with their top models almost always manufactured too ( at the same time. ) the SUT to match the cartridge gain with very low noise. That's the way how FR or Audio Technica or Dynavector or Koetsu or Audio Note did it. In the case of Ortofon the matched SUT was a necessity due to the cartridge so low output level that with out the rigth SUT the noise levels gone to high . One of the first Ortofon SUT's was for the MC 30 cartridge and then followed for the one for the MC 2000 but other that its high gain and that's silver wired has nothing special. We have to remember that LOMC cartridges are non sensitive to impedance loads. Yes, the best way to go with these kind of LOMC cartridges is through a well designed active high gain phonolinepreamp. I'm not saying that we can't admire the MC 2000 through a good SUT but we are " losting " something " down there. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear @lewm : Yes, that SUT was a necessity in those old times ( not today. ) to have decent phono stage noise levels. The MC 2000 with the rigth active high gain phonolinepreamp is very hard to beat even for today Ortofon designs. Its very low output impedes that the cartridge been owned by higher audiophiles that's why in a short time Ortofon designed the MC 2000 MK2 with higher output level. I owned too and just does not compare to the 2000, hands down. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear @lewm : """
Axel's re-tip preserved the original sound of the MC2000? """, no re-tipper but the original manufacturer can leave in original shape a cartridge so special like the MC 2000. I owned 3 MC 2000, two originals and one re-tipped by van den Hul and this one sounds different even that this manufacturer has premium parts where a re-tipper just have not access to it. Regrads and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear @chakster : """
talking about refurbishg of this cartridge i assume retippers use different cantilever (probably boron?), because the original alluminum cantilever of the MC2000 looks very unique in its conical shape. """ As any one knows cartridge manufacturers almost always gives you a new cartridge sample in exchange for the cartridge damaged. That's why always is more expensive to fix the cartridge through the original manufacturer but with the advantage that the new cartridge sample has its latest up-dates. Btw, the 20 cu in compliance is what Ortofon stated but through a cartridge review where they took measures the compliance is around 30 cu. @lewm I think that even Ortofon can't make the " perfect " MC 2000 fix to its original status. In the other side what they can do could be the refurbished work that they did it and offers on vintage Ortofon cartridges like the Rohman, Jubilee, MC 3000 and other models. You can contact Ortofon to find out if that's posible. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear @chakster : If you own the original Telarc 1812 and listen through the MC 2000 you will know not only its excellent tracking abilities but all the grooves information that pick-up and that you can't detect with some other cartridges. Btw, the MC 2000 was one of the first cartridges builded with pure silver coils. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear @lewm : Just from the begining I attested that the MM is an alternative and not in place LOMC cartridge alternative. It does not substitute the MC's but it's a very good alternative. Problem with alternatives evaluations and posts about those evaluations were made it by us audiophiles whom almost all are founded on what each gentleman likes in his room/audio system and not on how the home audio experiences really SHOULD BE . I already explain the " should be " concept in other threads and I don't want to repeat it here. In the latest years I learned what that " should be " means almost all still are sticked to that infamous " I like it " and has no idea on that " should be ". and I'm still learning about. This is self/personal excersice. So today I speak in a lower manner of differences in what other people listen and what I'm listening because we are talking of different things. I'm sure that some audiophiles, sooner or latter, will learn about that " should be " and of course many audiophiles never can arrive there. lewm, one out of question condition to arrives to that " should be " is that the digital alternative outperforms the analog experience ( including R2R. ) in each one audio system. If this does not happens then we have to work on fine tunning the system to that digital direction, This has nothing to do even if we don't " like " the digital alternative, it's only part of a test evaluation that our system sounds as SHOULD BE. Btw, that " should be " always will like us and will outperforms the today experience. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear @enginedr1960: """
I had upgraded my digital front end to a point where it sounded better the my analog rig .After upgrading to a better TT ,tone arm , cartridge & phono pre I am getting closer to the quality of my digital front end. """ To understand by listening the superior digital alternative we have to have a good digital rig and that the systemstay tunned to that digital rig instead to the analog imperfections. Several analog lovers have not a first rate digital rig in their room system. As I said, I explein it in deep several times through this forum in the last 2-3 years. Even I posted that any one that really wants to experice by it self the superiority of the digital over analog technology whwat has to do is: to own a first rate digital rig and day by day only listen to it with out LP sessions and do this by 3 moths in a row and then comeback to analog and compare it and please forgeret all what we learned on analog and all our biased opinions about because our brain is already conditioned to what we listen through LPs. Digital is the only alternative that puts us nearer to the recording and is obvious the reasons why. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear @lewm and friends: """
I've never made much of an effort to maximize my digital experience. So, I am open-minded as to its ultimate potential,... """ That is the main and critical subject with analog lovers. No real efforts in their own systems with the best digital. With out true and real digital experiences by our self we have no facts to analize today digital vs analog. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear @enginedr1960: """
I know when my analog play back is sounding closer to my digital front end I am heading in the right direction . """ Yes, you are rigth because you really understand the why's about and other audiophiles just can't. Lewm said is openmind to the digital potential but makes no single effort that confirm his " openmind ". @chakster speaks on many things in his last post that only reflect he just does not understand the main subject. Where is the MUSIC. Almost everyone is ready to post opinions against digital but with out a real and deep experiences in the continuous time with this format. This analog forum is the rigth forum to speak about digital because it's, other than live music, the reference to fine tunning any audio system. When digital is rigth in the listening system experiences then everrything is fine and obviously analog will shines better than ever. Of course that exist " audiophiles " that never will learn about, just their brain can't understand. This kind of scenario is the same when people just can't understand why tubes are not for audio or unipivots for analog. It's incredible that even today and even that some subjects already were analized really in deep exist ignorants ( for say the least ). that still speaks of load impedance with LOMC cartridges when this kind of cartriodge is no sensitive to load impedance ! !. Such is life, stupidity is all over the world in the day by day. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear @frogman : """ "there are no ’shoulds’ in life". Not every listener wants the same things from recorded sound... """ well not only in audio but in other different day by day " scenarios " many times we use " something " not in the rigth way the manufacturer recomend: this is the " should be ", but we used as we " understand " how to use it or as we like when this is possible but the " should be " always exist. Each audiophile can have their own system targets . My target is to stay truer to the recording truer as the recording microphones pick up the MUSIC information and each time that I talk on that " should be " my opinion is based/founded on this target/premise. You said: """ the expression and musicality of the musicians and this is the area that still separates analog and digital """. and coninue telling: "" the often cited "warmth" in analog sound as compared to digital has more to do with the more accurate rendition of the human element (expression) than with frequency response related qualities and is the reason so many listeners react so positively to analog in spite of whatever technical "distortions" it may have compared to digital. """ The microphones takes that expression and musicallity that players gave it along its rythm. Now, that " warmth " is something that almost does not exit in the real life and almost never by microphones that can’t pick up what does not exist. I like to listen an audio system in a near field position because that’s the way things happen in real life and where the recording microphones were set up at the venue. Microphones are not " seated " at 30-40 m. from the overall MUSIC source as the people that attends to a concert hall. Live MUSIC has no " warmth ", not even an essemble. You can take the instrument you like and at 2m. just does not exist that characteristic. Even a violin at that distance sounds agressive and we can " feel " the friction of the bow with the violin chords but if we take a trumpet even a 3 m. it’s just extremely agressive and " overbrigth " for say the least. A piano is no exception. I know several players and two orchestra Directors that accept they has an anormal lost of auditive sensitivity because to many hours and years listening to those so high SPL. some are almost " deaf ". I have several first hand experiences learning/listening near field live music, including full symphonic orchestra. No warmth. People like warmth in the analog experience because they are accustom to by all its audio life but that does not means are rigth because the true all are wrong including your player friends that prefers analog. From where comes that analog warmth you like that does not exist at the same level in digital and that does not exist when the microphones tooks the information? You said that the digital " distortion " is the worst but with out explanation about as no explanation of your non-existent " warmth ". Well as a fact you said that the warmth comes from a more accurate ...... Let me tell you something: between digital and analog and everything the same the more non-accurate and for a wide margin is analog. We all belongs to the AHEE and trained by its corrupted leaders and since we strated in audio we were and still are FOLLOWERS that’s the " easy " road. A few years ago when I began to think " out of the box/out of the AHEE " was really when I discovery first that several MUSIC/AUDIO subjects I learned were totally wrong and second was when I really understand where MUSIC belongs in my room/audio system and since then working to stay truer to the recording. I’m not today a follower, enough is enough on that AHEE. As you I’m a MUSIC lover and own thousands of LPs but I recognize the digital superior system source. Regrads and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. @chakster I understand your " romanticism " but I’m not talking of that but the MUSIC experience and what this really means . |
Dear @harold-not-the-barrel : Sorry, I " missed " your post. The 13 D is not a weaker sample in its body wood presentation and is a very good performer if mounted in a different headshell that the one dedicated that comes with the cartridge. Other important subject you have to check before buy it is that the cartridge connector wires to the headshell be original. This is that these four wires came from inside the cartridge, something as the Linn cartridges. The 13D cartridge output comes through those wires and not through cartridge output pin connectors. It's not an easy cartridge to performs at its best, you have to try different headshells and different tonearms. For me it's not an user friendly cartridge and took several hours to performs at its best. I never tested against the 17D. Regrads and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear @frogman : """ One cannot have both the live music experience (as you claim to have) and recorded music as the ultimate reference. You assume that a recording is an accurate representation of the original event. """ Recorded music never is not even close to the " ultimate reference " against live music that’s the ultimate reference. I’m not comparing it in any way. All what I post or posted in this and other forums is about audio home system experiences. "" suggesting that it should apply to all listeners and you invalidate (ridicule) others’ system goals. """ I think a misunderstood by your part ( please re-read the begining of your last post. ) because I always states and stated which is my main target: stay truer to the recording. I don’t invalidate other listeners targets in any way. In the other side because I was speaking of the home listening experiences I took that warmth in the audiophile home system terms/scenario. MUSIC as poetry, sculpture or paint is a true and real ART and this kind of art is a deep expression of the composers with additional expression of the players. All of those diferent kind of ART wake up different type of feelings and emotions on each single human been and normally those feelings/emotions are singular/unique to each person. That’s the ART’s power/beauty. MUSIC as an art has the " legacy " that it does not matters the MUSIC source ( a walkman, $$$ home system, car radio or live. ) always wake up some kind of feelings/emotions in each one of us. Now, each orchestra director has its own interpretation of what was the composer whole expressions in the score and this director will try to shows us that self interpretation additional to what is the self orchestra individual players expressions. All these is extremily and really the deepest subjectivity that in an orchestra with 80 players no one can detect the individual expressions. Even if any one of us attend in two concecutive days to listen the same score we will find out differences on both performances. Even if instead of an orchestra we are listening to a single player: horn, piano or whatever instrument two concecutives player presentations are different and we can detect it. Anyway, that warmth/expression is intrinsical on what pick up the venue recording microphones and what you said is that analog preservs it and is almost losted by digital or at least analog reflects better way. How is that? can you explain it other than that " I like it more.." ? I´m not a player as you are but at least one day by week I attend to listen live MUSIC and I do this for several years now. I respect to all players and I can learn on each one of them when we are talking of live MUSIC but when we are talking of the audio home room/system experiences you and me are at almost the same level and I have respect for you too as an audiophile. Well now I will wait for your answer on my questions, we can learn from you. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear @chakster @harold-not-the-barrel : Whom tell you I'm in digital now. That's a misunderstood because I'm listening analog and digital. Btw, I don't have the time yet to test several cartridges ( MM/MC ) I own and that no one " touched " in this thread, even some of them I had and do not have the time to listen for the first time. Testing cartridges to evaluate them is really time consuming and I just have not any more. I hope that time to time I can do that to report it here. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear @frogman : """
what does "understanding" have to do with any of this. Is it not about what we hear and what we feel when we listen to recorded music? I know very well what I hear and feel when I hear analog vs digital. """ yes, all is about what we hear and feel but when we are listening MUSIC in a home audio system we can't be as a " robot " that just listen with out ask our slf nothing with out know why we are listening what we are listening and with out ask our self how to improve the listening experiences. To improve those listening experiences we have to " understand " what is happening down there because if we do not know why we are listening " something " how can we improve it, don't yo think? I don't think that you or any one else that's in home audio system and when started this hobby bougth and builded his first system and after that he never made any single changes/tweacks or up-grade steps . What moves each one of us to look for up-grades? how can we now what needs an up-grade/date in our system if we do not understand what and why is happening? Subwoofers are not used inside a symphonic orchestra with Mahler scores but even with a more " simple " scores self powered subwoofers are a must in any home audio system that have passive loudspeakers. Subwoofers are a necessity in a home audio system as is not to listen to unipivot tonearms or all metal build tonearmsor tubes or.... or.... or...I don't know you but I learned the why's about when I understand its really weak role in what I listening day by day trhotugh many years in my home system. If your target or other people target is just listening then we don't need to think on up-grade/dates in our system. How you or your friends or the ones that disagree witn me about today importance on digital alternative can disagree with out follow that 3 months test listening exclusively to digital? Some of you said that already heard digital but only for a 2-3 hours and not each single day, this kind of experiences is prove of nothing. We can't " desintoxicate " our brain in only a few hours when we have 20-30-40+ years accustomed to the analog experience ! ! ! We just can't, it does not happens that way. Well, I hope you can understand my take and why I post here and elsewhere what I post. Every thing has a reason if we work to find out. Nothing comes by free in audio, evry day we have to learn but to learn we have to be willing to do it. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear @lewm : I read it and with all respect that you know I have for you: it's unimportant, you only need a today decent CD/SACD player. Obviously that when you can listen QUAD dsd it's just fenomenal. I think that the important issue is to make that 3 months tests with digital, in a row. Till we can do that test it's is impossible to " understand " my points about because you need a " frame " for we can talk in the same subject with similar listening experiences. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear @frogman : Than's for your wide answer, appreciated. I'm still " reading " it because I think we are not alking of truly different things but more how each one of us " understand " the home and the live MUSIC experiences. It's good that over your posts was in your last one when you refered to rhythm for the first time and if you re-read my first post to you I refered to as a main MUSIC characteristic. It's not only me, I think that some audiophiles knows the main importance of rhythm or not have it in our listening experiences. Anyway, I will give you my overall take on your post. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONs, R. |
@lewm : I don't have opportunity to listen this recording but it's on what I'm refering to about top digital experiences: http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/115913/Ilya_Itin_Debussy-Preludes_Book_1-DSD_Quad_Rate_112MHz256fs... Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear @frogman : """
Then it "guesses" """, well we have to think that it's not the same to work with 16 bits than with 24 or 32 bits that makes that " " guessing " almost not existing and we have to think that today algorihtmics as so advanced as are the anti-aliasing filters and of course the advanced oversampling thecnics. The today ADC/DAC devices are extremely more advanced and fastest with the latest digital technology than just 3 years ago and still developing each single day. As I pointed out before the digital music reproduction is in continuous improvements just like the cell phones or computers. It's not static like analog that's so limited and we can't change this facts and that continuous improvements is not only on the digital domain but with the players it self and the transport units. Each " day " are better transports and reading lassers and the like. Digital still has some kind of signal loosing?, yes nothing is perfect in audio but the LP/analog recording/playback has higher loosing of the original signal pick it up by the microphones.: the first major and I mean MAJOR signal lost in analog is in the bass range where even that the signal comes in stereo and in this way is digital recorded in analog the bass is recorded/changed to mono because the LP technology limitations when in a home system the bass range is where belongs the MUSIC not at midrange as some audiophiles could think. The second heavy analog/lp lost/degradation is the RIAA equalization hard process that generates a curve with eq. from - 18db to + 18db. This is not a simple say: " the RIAA eq. ", NO it's a heavy degradation to the original signal and that the in a digital process does not happens. Another problem with analog are the really higher noise levels that are generated not only during playback but at the whole recording process ( no, you can't think that the R2R where is recorded the signal is a perfect no noise device because it's not. In reality has high noise levels ( against digital recordedrs. ) and limited frequency range and this frequency range is not flat. ). A digital CD is always an aoriginal master, all the copies of those CDs are original masters not a copy of other copies that puts a heavy degradation at each step. You can attest this in analog very easy: but any test pressing of a LP and compare it vs the normal/comercial LP and you will hear the differences in detriment of the signal in the normal LPs. I know this because I have some different test pressings of my LPs. So, when of one LP are pressing 1K samples and you compare ( even with no test pressing. ) the first copy with the 1|,000 you will note the differences ! ! and this is what almost all likes. ! ! ! But things don't stop there because during playback that analog degraded signal must pass for the second RIAA equalization in inverse mode with an additional issue:there are not equalization process ( any ) with out no deviations and think that during the recording process the RIAA deviation was +,- 0.15db. This is the figure we have but we dont know with out a chart where in the equalization RIAA curve are those +,- deviations. Why is important to know it?, because the inverse RIAA equalization deviation in the phono stage even if is the same: +,- 0.15db just can't mimic the recorded process RIAA deviations discrete points/frequencies. It's suppose that the inverse RIAA in the phono stage is to mimic the de-emphasis RIAA eq. in the recording to have a even/flat signal: to recovery the signal and this just never happens and means more lost information. But the " worst " at last ( and maybe not the worst and maybe not at last because the analog road is almost endless tortuoso one. Full of degradations at each single step. ). What happens with that arcaic cartridge stylus tip/cantilever when hits/touch the LP grooves: well it trys to follow with true fidelity the grooves modulations and this never happens because the tonearms ( pivoted ones the LT has other important problems too. ) has inherent tracking error ( we can't nothing about. ) that impedes to mimic the grooves but what sense the cartridge transducer?, the cantilever/stylus movements that came with a true lost of the already degraded signal with additional " signal " ( that's not in the recording. ) generated by the self cantilever vibrations generated for the stylus/tip friction with the vinyl. I can follow explain itloosing steps that happens with analog and not in digital technology. That for you and your friends and almost all analog lovers is what you like is not under analyzis but only that you can think again where is that " expression " in analog that according with you almost disappears in digital today/native recordings/playback. Do you really think that that " expression " is untouchable or was untouchable by all those degradation steps in analog when that " expression " is inherent in the recorded signal? For me has no sense to think in that way and I know it's it can't happens that way. In the other side: """ and you promise to listen to music for three months without once concerning yourself with the technical and trying "understand" why things sound the way they do. """ frogman, that does not happens every time I listen a CD or LP. When you really in a true way learned that " understanding " then you are " there " and you have almost never to think in that again but just enjoy what you are listening: MUSIC AS BETTER THAN EVER BEFORE ! ! Sooner or latter some of us will learn but other never will do because so very high ignorance levels in the fundamental subjects. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear @frogman : """ because of the REDUCED amount of musically expressive detail in digital as compared to analog. """ where it comes that " musically expressive " characteristic?, certainly it comes in what the recording microphones pick-up. Now, in LP analog recordings and as I already pointed out exist no " guessing " but something even worst: exist true losted information that can’t be recovered in any way and that lost is really significant and through that lost gone an important part of that music musicallity that in digital happens in lower way. Btw, forgeret on that " almost " that in reality is not happening any more. To analize that we have to go in deep on thechnical/mathematics explanation. in the past the sampling rate was 44.2khz and today PCM sampling thousands of thousands times each second and in DSD even millions of times each second. there is no land to " guessing " and all that follows a " patron " / series where mathemathics is infalible because gives certainnity. In the other side timing is not a stand alone characteristics because per sé could not explain the whole subject that when you put in perspective along frequency response everything has a real meaning. Frequency response always is in there and we can’t diminish it in any way because are those frequencies and overtones/harmonics what makes that those SPL vibrations been converted in music by our brain. Musicallity and expression is fundamental part of that and in analog we lost a lot of information that was pick-up by the microphones. Analog process can’t recovery that information in any way and I want to tell you that what I posted before about the analog losting information was not all the steps of analog losting information as you know there are other important losting information sources that are unique to analog but not in digital that’s a more simple recording/playback medium. Do you know that our ears/brain has a sophisticated ADC?, please read: https://www.soundonsound.com/sound-advice/how-ear-works you can read there: """ With the hair cells, we come to the end of the audio path inside the ear. Hair cells are neurons, and the purpose of the outer hair cells is to convert the mechanical vibrations that come from their cilia into nerve signals. Such signals are binary (all or nothing), and seem to be completely decorrelated from the analogue signals to which they correspond. In other words, they’re digital signals, and the inner hair cells are analogue‑to‑digital converters. """ Has a meaning in the whole subject?, well maybe different meaning for each one of us but is interesting to know about. About my statement that in a HOME SYSTEM music belong at the bass range the meaning was not explained and that’s why you posted that you tube link. Here I go: the heavy music degradation in any room/system resides in how well that room/system handle the bass range and as better your bass range as better the music listen in home experiences. Something that almost does not happens in live events where the music halls are really big and where are builded taking in count everything including the bass range resonances. Bass frequencies develops harmonics and if the bass is " wrong "/distorted the harmonics too and will colored almost all the frequency range. When the bass is rigth ( at home. ) the midrange shines as never before as the high frequencies too. That’s why is so important and critical to use a good pair of self powered subwoofers in any passive speakers. Obviously that all we know that there are instruments that just never goes in the bass range as the flute you name it but this was not my idea. When I speak of self powered subwoofers it’s not only the idea to have a pair of subs where we connect a pair of amplifiers we have somewhere. What I’m meaning is that the amplifiers been designed in specific to match the woofers needs, this is the main target for the subs really can helps to any passive speakers system. I know that you prefer analog over digital as many many audiophiles but that fact does not means is better than digital at home. Like you I like what I listen through my thousands of LPs even if the analog is an inferior medium at home experiences. I don’t know where digital will follows to growing up, what I know is that nothing stop it in benefit of us: MUSIC LOVERS. Digital is everywhere daily in our life, even today exist movie films that was filmed with an Ipod ! ! ! and when you see that picture you can’t believe or imagine that was made it through an Ipod. Again, to make that our system really shines with the LP analog experience we need that the set-up/fine tunning system be made it using digital medium. Period. In this regards digital is a useful tool even if you never use it day by day. Fine tune any system with digital and that system will performs as better than ever, no exception. Try it ! Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear @downunder : Very good finding. You will makes those comparison tests with the original vs de vdH re-tipped one. I hope everything be ok. with the original replacement but if not you vdh can fine tunning it. Please come back here to share that comparison. Good luck. regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear @pryso : """
When you express such strong preferential feelings I can't believe they are based upon discoveries made in just the past few months. """ I understand your concern about but in reality that did not happens that way. Around the 2000 year that was almost when appeared the DVDA ( PCM ) and SACD ( DSD (1x). ) I bougth some DVDA and an all formats Denon player. What I listened likes me for the first time as a digital alternative and at least was a " promise " that digital " thigs " were improving and will improves in the future and I was not in an error about. Unfortunatelly I have many posts in Agon and not easy to look for posts where in those " old times " I posted that we all must try the DVDA alternative and latter I speaks the same for the SACD. In more " modern " years, 3-5 years, I posted several times that digital is a true serious music/sounds alternative for any home audio system. Even some of my posts wake-up very hot discussion against my digital points of view even that as today I left very clear that I still listen to LPs. So, it's not " in the past few months " as you said. My discovery about digital came from many years now. As a fact I knew about digital advantages in the very early 80's through digital LP recordings. Digital is not perfect and as with analog there are " horrible " recordings but not because the medium but because a bad recording producer/enginners choices during the recording process. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |