Dear Hxtl: Normally the phono stages comes with 47K on default impedance so we have to add or change the input resistor to achieve 100K. The effort is worth it.
Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
Dear Siniy123: From the Technics 205 series I own the 205CMK4 and like you I can say: sounds incredible.
The other MM cartridge that I know with a low internal DC resistance is the Stanton 981 LZS: 3 Ohms!
Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
Dear Acee: +++++ " but the Decca is alive and the cd isn't. " +++++
big difference. The Decca cartridges are truly special ones, I'm looking for it.
Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
Dear No regrets: Sorry for the delay. IMHO and with the ones that I already try/test it all them benefit from the 100K load impedance along a low total capacitance ( 100-150 pf ). You can run the MP-50 at 47K and sounds good but example the 97 at 47K is a poor performer against it self at 100K
Now, those cartridges that you name it are different between them. The MP-50 and the AT are more similar in its presentation and the main difference is that the tonal balance in the MP-50 has better equilibrium and natural behavior, the At is a little on the bright side and not so good on the low end frequency. The 97 is very good for 60.00, easy listening but still not close to the MP-50. This one is a " sophisticated/aristocrat " performer against the more " urban " 97 one, even that the Shure is well balanced ( btw, I like it more with the " brush " out. ).
Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
Dear Dgob: I own the 999 ve/x and a 1000 stylus that I can use on it. I don't test it yet in either way. As a fact I have several cartridges that I don't have the time ( yet ) to test it, right now due that I'm in deep on the tonearm finish tests I don't have enough time to do it.
I will report too when already tested.
regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
Dear Siniy123: Yes, just first rate and the 20E too. Nice to " see/read " that some one else confirm my appreciation on it.
Regards and enjoy the music. raul. |
Dear Dgob: Thank you for your time and support on the subject.
Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
Dear Genesis: Well, those cartridges are at the MF Astatic series " extremes " where the MF-100 is the top of the line and the MF-400 the lower model.
Both cartridges " prefer " over 70K on load impedance and no more than 150pf of total capacitance.
The MF-100, even for today quality performance cartridges standards, is a very good performer and not so easy to beat. It is a very high compliance ( 50cu ) where the MF-400 is " only " 35cu. The balance, frequency response and separaion on those cartridges are really different, even its VTF: 1.25 for the 100 and 2.0grs on the 400. The spherical MF-400 is totally different from the Shibata ( type )-parabolic stylus in a tapered cantilever that use the MF-100.
I can tell you that if your MF-100 is in good operation condition then you are so lucky to own it, congratulations.
Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
Dear Siny123: In those times Astatic had a lower cartridge model than the MF-400: the IM10E, this cartridge does not used the moving flux principle than the MF series.
Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
Dear Genesis: Normaly we can use the 4-5 position but it is important too to mate the MF-100 with the right headshell, well is almost impossible to find the right/perfect one but at least try with two-three different headshells and see which one works in that set up with your own priorities.
Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
Dear Travbrow: Well you are serious about with all those cartridge. Btw, I really like your Technics tonearm specially its VTA mechanism.
I agree with you about the Signet ( an Audio Technica division. ) and I can say that with the new stylus things could improve.
The Empire's are not so easy ( plug and play ) cartridges to obtain its best, are very sensitive to VTA and VTF changes and to changes in headshell that in your case can't do it. Other " issue " is that the Empire need a little more breack time ( playing time ) that other cartridges, I can say over 60 hours.
Anyway, good to know you are enjoying the MM alternative.
Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
Dear friends: This was posted in other thread and IMHO I think is very interesting to read it, this kind of experiences are the ones that help to up-date our know-how and give us the opportunity to try other alternative along the LOMC cartridges:
++++ 05-17-09: Halcro Dear Raul, I spoke too early. Because I had played the Garrott P77s (I have 2) in my system 15 years ago, I forgot that it needed hours of run-in time just as a new cartridge does? My post was lodged after only 3 hours of listening. The sound has now changed enormously and I believe that it is serious competition to the great LOMCs like Dyna DV1s and ZYX Universe but without a rising top-end. Once again Raul, your advice about re-trying MM cartridges in our high-end systems is a wise and timely one. Thank you. Halcro (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers) ++++
Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
Dear Photon46: Yes, I see it and I like you would like to try it, maybe on Christmas!
Now, the original P77 that Halcro and I own ( and other people that posted here ) is a performer that put some real " light " of the high " value " of the MM alternative.
I don't hear it for sometime ( it is difficult when you own over 100 cartridges. ) but due to Halcro findings I will try it this week.
Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
Dear Toufu: I think I speak early on the Grace Ruby quality performance status.
Now that already run for around 20 hours and that I already make a " fine " tunning I'm convinced that this cartridge belongs to the range/status of " top MM cartridges ".
I hope that your re-tipped Ruby can give you the "joy " that my original one is now given me.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Axel: Thank's for your explanation/contribution.
It is clear that you really don't have a MM reference to compare in the same " stage " than the LOMC you own.
+++++ " As to the construction differences I can not see that even with the most powerful smallest magnets a similar resolution and detail retrieval is possible...." +++++
and you never can know it till you " run " a MM cartridge with the right whole set-up in your system.
I can tell you for sure that the " right " MM alternative can/could put on " shame " ( it is not exactly the word but I have no other. ) any single of the cartridges you own and certainly with all " resolution and detail retrieval " that you can ask for.
Anyway, the MM alternative is only that : an additional " experience ".
Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
Dear Axel: Reading from some of your post I was thinking that your ML don't acept MM cartridge, I was wrong. Of course that the 326S is up to the task.
There are some cartridges that performs very good on 47K, between them: Nagaoka Mp-50/500, Reson Reca, Garrot P-77, Audio Technica ATML-170/180,Grace Ruby. All these cartridges are different ( in price range too ) but very good performers.
I think that all these cartridges will work fine on your V.
Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
Dear Axel: In my experiences almost all the MM cartridges performs very well with 100-150pf, so you can run with that 0nf and the cable capacitance can/could help about.
Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
Dear Axel: Here it is an article on the subject: http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/load_the_magnets_e.html
I'm using 100K along 100pf ( total C. ) and the different cartridges performance seems very good to me, I try 75K but I prefer 100K that I understand Kirkus is using it.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Travbrow: For what I understand unfortunately the MK2 cartridge is no compatible with the MK4 stylus ( Technics make electrical changes on the cartridges. ), for this one you need the MK3 or MK4 cartridge.
This happen to with other cartridges, example: the AT ML 150-170-180 body cartridge is almost identical but if you put the AT ML-180 or 170 stylus in the AT ML-150 then it does not works but if you make changes between the ML-170 and the ML-180 cartridges every change works.
Then you have to find a new cartridge or the MK2 stylus or to re-tip the MK2 stylus.
Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
Dear Timeltel: Nice to hear that. Well the good news is that that sound will still improve with a more running hours, the Grace ones benefit on a long run broke-up.
Timetel, Axel and everyone Shure owner through my Shure experiences I think that these cartridges performs best with the " brush " out. You can try it and decide about.
On the VTA there is no rules other than how the records were cut and try to match it through VTA/SRA changes. Of course that in some way is system dependent so we have make changes according.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Livemusic: More that we think there are many MM cartridges that have medium compliance between 10cu to 18cu and the high cmpliance one are very tolerant on tonearms. As a fact no one of my tonearms has a low effective mass and the cartridges that I already try works fine.
I like the EPA-100 and agree that will be a good match for MM cartridges with the advantage that you can try with different headshells that help a lot to match the cartridge with that tonearm, the 881S is very good performer lucky you are to own it in a new condition.
What you experienced with that Empire is almost repetitive between MM and MC samples: no contest.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Halcro: I agree with Axel on your P-77 review. Thank you to bring it here.
Oh that " air "!!!!!!!
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear friends: Normaly almost all the MM cartridges come with a integral stylus guard ( on MC ones I only remember that the Fulton comes in that way too. ) and through my experiences on different cartridges I hear a tiny improvement taking out of the cartridge body that stylus guard that produces reonances on its own. Of course that when you do this the cartridge has " nodefense " against accidents but IMHO is worth to try it.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Axel: You already discover the " tip " of the iceberg and you can't eat the iceberg in " one day ".
Be patience and enjoy each step while you grow-up on the " fantastic " MM learning curve.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Halcro: +++++ " As Axel asked previously.........who suddenly decried that MCs are superior to MMs and that this was the direction that the High-End would take? Is it the reviewers or the manufacturers? " +++++
this was part of my answer to that same question:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1200430667&openflup&223&4#223
I can add that there are other factors that bring the people to the " only and right " road thorugh the MC cartridges, in no order:
- the very low price in the MM alternative. Almost all the people think that expensive audio products are synonymus of better quality and that a very low price audio item can't perform good: it must be a bad audio item.
- many people think that if his audio's friends circle knows that he is listening a MM cartridge this fact wil be " a shame " or something totally out of that " circle " place.
- over the years the MC " word " was a status symbol to the best and the MM was a " word " for low/hi-fi and " poor " audio people.
- other factor is that many audio people already lose " spirit " to be or to find how could we can things go better. Many of us are mere spectator and do not care anymore to be active " part " on our hobby.
- of course that the ignorance and non know-how is an important factor too.
Any one of you can add many other factors on the subject.
IMHO, here and today the MM alternative it is not only alive but the ones that still have the " spirit " are enjoying like ever/no other time the music reproduction through their audio system in a way that the others not only can't enjoy it but can't even imagine/dream!!!
Please do it you a favor and recover that " spirit " !
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Badcap: Let me to explain about: I own the AT-20SS and the AT-20SLa, both cartridges including stylus are the same and in its time had the same price for the cartridge and for the stylus replacement. The same is true for the 15SS and 15Sa.
In those times the people ( directly ) of AT told me that the SS designation was for those cartridges where ( through measures/tests. ) its spes comes a little better.
In both cases ( 20 and 15 ) the SS ones separation spec is better: in the 20SS 35db against 30db in the SLa and in the 15SS is 33db against 30 db on the 15Sa. Could you tell ( hearing it ) which one is which?, hard to say with the 15 but in my 20 cartridges I can think/feel some tiny difference.
Unfortunately I don't own or owned the 15SS/Sa.
If I was you and have the opportunity to get the SS this will be my " road ".
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Badcap: I'm talking of an original AT SS stylus replacement not a " second source ".
Raul. |
Dear Badcap: Yes both are compatibles. The VTF range is 0.75grs to 1.75grs on the AT-15/20, I have in my notes that works really good at 1.4grs.
Your post make that I take out of the " closet " my 20SS and I'm mounting and in three-for days more I can answer about the load impedance.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Timetel: Good. It will be interesting that you test different capacitance values, with 100K and almost in all the MM cartridges that I already try it 100-150pf are the numbers but is system/ears dependent.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Pryso: Yes you are right: positive VTA the tonearm is raised above/over the parallel cartridge body.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Badcap: I was a little busy with the Koetsu Coral and AT PC-1 Supreme on hand but already return to its owners ( I will report on it latter in this thread. ).
I'm hearing my AT 20SS ( it performs better at 100K ) at 1.4gr on VTF and with positive VTA that it's what prefers, btw I'm the original owner and many years ago ( I buy it at the mid-end of the 70's. ) I give it to my brother like a present he use it many years till the stylus last and when he can't find the original stylus replacement he bought the AT-15SS stylus but from there he almost don't use it because of CDs that he prefers, two years ago I asked him ( because I own a NOS original 20SS stylus replacement ) if he can return in change of other cartridge ( I give him two cartridges. ) and he agree ( he does not cares about cartridges anymore. ) ( now I have to a 15SS stylus replacement that I don't use. ) and lucky I'm that I have it again! .
Enough, What can I say on its performane?, as I posted I was enjoying my Grace F9-Ruby that is extremely good performer: well the AT-20SS surpass it and not for a small range/margin, this AT 20SS is more refined one and the words Rigthness/naturalness goes a step forward. I knew that this cartridge was a good one but never imagine how good it is. THings are that probably the quality sound of this cartridge will improve with a little more running time.
Axel ask somewhere for a quality performance cartridge scale, well I'm not prepared ( yet ) to make it. This AT-20SS/20SLa is so good that I have to re-list/scale ( in my mind ) other " tremendous " MM performers that I already heard and that now I have to hear again.
I'm sure that you will be very happy with your 15SS that is only one step down the 20SS. Btw, thank you to ask for the AT because you give me the opportunity to try it again and what a good surprise!
Badcap, my AT.20SS as your 15SS were build/designed more than 30 years ago !!!!! and this kind of quality performance is no even today.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Timeltel: Good to know that that SAS stylus can works with my M97, thank you for the info.
Btw, other than running time ( you are a little impatience. ) that Grace needs 100K and positive VTA.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Timeltel: Good that you mentioned the AKG-P8E that before I install my AT-200SS was my nest test on the list.
Fortunately, and I don't know for how many time, the 20SS ( now that I almost finished to fine tunning. ) has an " unimaginable " quality performance that even give me some " fear " to " touch " it anymore. There is no magic here only several steps of better quality performance of what we are accustom to heard/hear with any other cartridge ( MC/MM and vintage or today. ) out there, yes is that good!
Btw, it seems to me that you own several very good MM cartridges and I don't know if you already have the ADC Astrion because if not IMHO I think that you can appreciate its quality performance. I bring this topic again because the one that is on the Agon ads is still there.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
and even that and like Axel say: these " humble " cartridges perform in great manner.
Raul. |
Dear Lew: You can add to your list of MI cartridges these ones too: Acutex, ADC, Astatic ( some models. ), Stanton/Pickering ( some models. ). Maybe there are more, I can't say it.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Lew: The Deccas are MI too.
Raul. |
Dear Axel: +++++ " It is my contention that even a lot of the better MC phono-stages are ultimately not up to this task, and it is here where a good MM will score by making the phono-stage's job A LOT easier. " +++++
I can say you that there are a few mc Phono Stages up to the task. Yes it is a little " easy " a MM design because less gain stages but the subject here is to know which are the preise needs of that " humble " MMs.
Now, we can't think that the differences on quality performance between MM and MC cartridges reside mainly in the phono stage performance because the MM cartridge design against the MC ones are totally different, both are transducers but each one works in different way ( like electrostatics speakers against ribbon ones or dynamic/moving coil ones: all are transducers but work and " sound " with different quality performance level. ) and that's why sound different, it one works according its own technology limitations and virtues. Each cartridge technology has its own " signature " and the phono stages are the ones that have to take care to preserve that " signature " intact ( obviously that the TT/tonearm/cables/set-up are part of the equation too. ).
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Hey!: which ones of you buy those 4 Andante units?, well I appreciate that when you receive it and after 20 hours of " running " it and if you can share with us your findings.
Raul. |
Dear Axel: +++++ " interesting that you 'consider' the phono-stage, all things +/- equal, as of 'less' influence on some these MMs marvellous performance. That's powerful! " +++++
not exactly, maybe I don't explain in the right way.
What I'm trying to say is as important is the quality performance of the phono stage as is very important too that we don't lose the merits of the MM technology design that is diffeent from the MC design and in the differences each other are the foundation of each design quality performance.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Axel: and next month you will need 5 tonearms", such is life and so good several MMs.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Timeltel: Due to what you experienced and posted here ( thank's for that. ) I already order the SAS stylus for my Shure M97xE.
As you posted with its original stylus the M97is a good performer that I like it over the V15V, I'm " exited " to hear it with the Jico SAS stylus.
This kind of MM carridges experiences are with high comfort because we are discovery cartridge after cartridge some " new " experiences even with, like the M97, very very low price ( less than 100.00 ) MM/MI cartridges. So we are all of the ones to decide to try the MM/MI alternative a " beautiful " learning experiences wth a lot of fun.
I have at least eight years working and learning on these " humble " cartridges along the LOMC ones.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear friends: Maybe this is not for this thread but I don't want to start another one.
As I posted somewhere I had on hand for two full weeks the Air Tight PC-1 Supreme and the Koetsu Coral, both borrowed for audio friends. ( in both cartridges they told me that it has over 100 hours of play. ).
I asked for these cartridges mainly to test in our self design/build tonearm ( obviously a great opportunity to hear/heard these top ranked LOMCs. ).
I have experience on the PC-1 little brother and in almost any ( Platinum and not. ) Koetsu cartridge and I already ( elsewhere ) posted what I think n those cartridges.
Because I'm testing our tonearm prototype where our main target is that any cartridge must perform at its best on it against any other commercial tonearm I try both cartridges in other tonearms that I have on hand trying to match in the best way and from here compare that quality performance with the one in our tonearm protoype.
The Pc-1 Supreme is a little better than the PC-1 especially in that the tonal balance in the Supreme is more natural and with better performance at the frequency extremes but IMHO I don't feel that the Supreme is something different of what other top LOMC are showing: for me is another good LOMC but nothing to die for. In the other " corner " the Coral is a " new " Koetsu for me, there is little resemblance of what we are accustom with other Koetsu cartridges models, for the very first time I heard a Koetsu with a natural and transparent tonal balance with no especial emphasis in a frequency range ( at least not so marked like in ther top Koetsucartridges. ), for the first time too I can heard a tight and precise performance in the low bass with a mid-bass that you have to hear it, it is still a little on the warm side but with a different " flavor " that other Koetsus, I can hear for many hours the Coral with out any fatigue even at high SPL ( something that I can't say for the PC-1 Supreme. ), its transparency IMHO has to see not only for very good quality perfromace an extension on the highs but because it has a very good retrieve on inner detail: I like the Coral.
Yes, both cartridges perform at its best in our tonearm prototype.
Now and even the high quality performance of the Coral and in less way the Supreme my top MM/MI cartridges which we compare it give an unanimous veredict from three audio friends: the MM/MI quality performance was not only different but overall a better one. Those MM cartridges were: Grace F-9 Ruby, Signet TK10ML2 and Audio Technica ATML-180 OCC, these ones were the ones my friends heard it and I can add: Sonus Dimension Five and Audio Technica AT-20SS and counting.
I have to say that I enjoy the short time that I was hearing the Coral, very good example of LOMC cartridges.
The Coral quality performance remember me the Goldbug MsBrier that was/is too a very good LOMC cartridge.
I want to say that along the Coral the next cartridges ( that I own/owned or heard it. ) that IMHO performs in a step down the top MM cartridges and at the top of the LOMC are: Goldbug MsBrier, Lyra Olympos, Allaerts Formula One, FR-702 ( with the Micro Seiki MAX tonearm. ), Ortofon MC-2000 ( with out SUT. ), Satin M21-P, Dynavector XV-1 ( not the 1s. ),Audio Note IO Limited ( original from Japan: 1982. ), Ortofon MC-7500 ( border line. ), Audio Technica AT-1000, Technics 305MK2, Victor MC-L1000. Of course that I don't hear yet all the LOMC cartridges out there and maybe there are more on this especial top performance level.
AS good as all these LOMC cartridges are IMHO Here and Now the MM cartridge range is the one that has the " Magic ", and IMHO too that " Magic " is untouchable by any MC cartridge.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Axel: Here in this thread and in other threads ( like Kirkus in yours. ) people different that me already posted that they have a better quality performance running at 100K and 100pf and this is independent of which phono stage they are using at. The MM cartridges works good at 47K but almost all likes and " suffer " a noticeable improvement at 100K.
Now, if the phono stage that any one is using was designed to cope with the specific needs of the MM/MI cartridges then this fact is " steps " ahead on quality performance against the ones that are " normal " design.
The MC alternative is the same, its needs are different than the MM ones so you have to have a dedicated MC phono stage that cope with its specific needs, fortunatelly I own that kind of design for both worlds:MC and MM.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Axel: As I posted: total C.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Axel: +++++ " Now, what to do if the MM has too much treble already --- the inverse problem?
Going down with the VTA is all I came up with this far. But what if you can't go any lower with the arm? " +++++
till today does not exist a commercial universal tonearm and if after try on load capacitance/impedance/VTA you can't take out a good cartridge quality performance then IMHO that cartridge is not for that tonearm.
Now, if you read the subject thread somewhere ( after the middle post. ) I posted that the AT-20SS give me especial " trouble " ( because " too much high frequency energy ". ) to tame its quality performance, well this 20-SS is the same that I'm refering in one of my last posts and that I highly recomended: now using my tonearm design. So the matching between cartridge/tonearm is important like always.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Axel: I don't like it but there are people that swear on that using this: http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgcart&1251218148&/Cartridge-Man-The-Isolator
you can try and if you don't like it: well you lose 150.00.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear friends: How can I forgot another LOMC top cartridge?, I'm refering to the Technics 305MCMK2, yes this one belongs IMHO to the LOMC elite group and I think that the Colibri ( plastic body, 0.25mv and non gold coils. ) is a border line in that select cartridge group.
No Transfiguration or ZYX are there at least the ones that I own/owned or heard it.
Right now I'm trying to find the opportunity to hear the Dynavector XV-1t that I hope is near the XV-1 than to the XV-1s quality performance, we will see.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Lewm: +++++ " So we are a tiny part of a fringe group. " +++++
yes we are but is growing-up faster that we think.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Dgob: As always everything is system dependent and ears dependent.
The main issue between the XV-1 and the 1s is on the high frequency range that in the 1s is more " present " against the XV-1 that is more natural.
Things are that over the time we all lose ears perception ( including the reviewers and audio desigers/manufacturers of audio items. ) mainly in the high frequency range, several audio systems ( especially on elcetronics. ) are not so good on high frequency extension, many of us are " crying " for " transparency " ( some times a false transpareny that normally is not on real live music events. ), many of us do not attend to hear acustic music in live events and our comparisons are hardware comparisons with almost no other real reference, etc, etc, sometimes it seems to me that today cartridge designers are in a challenge to see which one achieve the best " false transparency " with a little over-bright cartridges.
From by music experiences and by my ears perception and music sound reproduction priorities the XV-1 meets my goals better than the XV-1s. I'm not saying that the XV-1s is not good certainly is a top quality performer but not for me as I told you I prefer the XV-1.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Lawrence: The ones I own are: MF-100/200/300.
I never imagine about that Fulton, that's the only one that I knew. I buy it with a dealer in Houston but he never speak to me on that Fulton story.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |