Who needs a MM cartridge type when we have MC?

Dear chakster, I own two samples of Precept PC 440 (NOS)you own

three samples of AT ML 170. I forget Raul's ranking but do

remember his recommendation. How about exchange?

I think that I sold my Victor X1 on logical grounds . That is

to say because I assumed that Victor X1, mk.2 was ''improved

version'' of the mk.1. The other logical consequence is that I

can't compare both versions because I only own the user manual

of the mk2. So additional information about this ''rigid'' question

need to be provided by someone who owns both; the mk1 as

well the user manual.

Mk 2 specs:

Output : 3mV ( measured : 3,4 left; 3,2 right)

Freq.    : 10-60 kHz

Bal.      :  1dB

Sep.     : 25dB (1kHz); 30 dB (30 kHz)

Imp.      : 470 Ohm

Compl.  : 12x10 -6 cm /dyne

VTF       : 1,5 g (+/- 0,2 g).

Whatever the ''improvement'' of mk 2 may be the cantilever/stylus

combo is the same in both versions. Titanium is shine beryllium is

dark. The cantilever is not tubular and is flattened (cut?) on the

front , stylus side . I have never seen such cantilever before.

The single word in the user manual I was able to understand is

Shibata. I have seen many English translations from Japanese

so I don't care that the user manual is not translated (grin).

We all thought that Glanz and Astatic were different ''animals''

produced by different companies. Till we discovered thanks to

the Glanz thread that both carts are produced by the Japanese

company Mitachi the inventor of the MF (moving flux) technology.

However Astatic ordered by Mitachi Shibata styli while Glanz

ordered line contact and elliptical styli. So both Astatic and Glanz

were importers and not producers of those carts. We assume the

 same generator but different styli, cantilevers  and complience.

So why should different styli (Shibata or elliptical) or cantilevers

(beryllium or titanimum) by Victor X.1 or 2 confuse us?  Price

differentiation is normal procedure by producers and this fact

is obvious explanation for the markings differences.

Dear comrade indierohere (alias Knut), I assume that you are

referring to Kansui on ''audio-markt.de''? On the same site you

can find my Windfeld which is much better cart. You can even

trade in your JVC X2. I want to keep my sample in virginal state.

The Signets are meant as the exclusive top of the AT kinds.

All should be ''composed'' from seleceted parts by sellected

employee. This may be the case (?)for versions till nr. 7 but

not for the lower versions . There are btw the ''old versions'' with

different bodies from the later  versions. I own the 10 ML

and 9CL which have , say, small bodies. The other have

similar bodies but differe qua cantilevers, styli and output.

I myself don't believe that any Signet is better than AT 180/170.

Well this may look curious but thanks to ill informed chakster

we got 3 lectures from our Professor for free. ''May look as such''

because one get much more reactions when one make some

error than in case of correct informaation.

A ''certain Aussie'' rewarded timeltel with the title ''Professor''

and that is how we address his greatness since.

I was always confused by  the  AT nomenclature while the fact that

our Professor try to explain the situation in the past my memory

was not capable to handle all the information. No way to compete

with an Professor. I own 7 of those Signets all complete with the

included user manuals which I have ''studied'' all but am still

confused. The stories in the manuals never mentioned Ohio not to

mention Stow. Who would think that Americans can produce such

carts? The story was that an separate division was established (in

Japan of course) were their best technicians  ''composed'' each

Signet from pre-sellected  and measured parts. That is why I thought

that Signets are ''the top''  of AT cartridges while chakster wanted to

 correct this ''valuation''  and put his own instead. But you know he

is still an novice and need  to learn more. However his ''learning

curve'' is very promissing.

Dear chakster, we again disagree in our valuation. As answer to

your post our Professor first quoted your statement and then wrote

an exteded explication of the ''real state of afairs'' with Signets. I

don't think that his intention was to ''prove'' your satements or

rather your conjectures about Signets.

However I am more familiar with Austrian AKG and can inform

you that they closed their cart production to avoid liability fort they

carts which all have had worthless  suspension . They even

destroyed  all their stocks with carts and parts. So much about

your assumptions about superiority of Austrian manufacturing

capabability.  

Sorry chakster, My remarks about AKG are indeed addressed to

Cleeds whom I somehow confused with you (grin). However my

mistake about AKG and Cleeds does not apply for the Signets about

 which we had our dispute .

What about Benz which is a real factory producing all cartridge

parts except cantievers and styli. Van den Hul get his parts from

Benz. I am not sure if Gyger still produces styli but Allaerts still

uses them. Then the British Expert stylus does produce  ''Paratrace''

styli similar to micro ridge. I assume that they also produce Replicant

stylus for Ortofon. However all European producers are ''old masters''

like Ikeda, Takeda , Van den Hul, Lukatchek (Benz),  etc.  

 There is  technology  in theoretical sense but the practical

 human capability and knowledge are lost in the 80is. This explains

 why back then better cantilevers are produced.

Dear dover, Can you bring some ''light'' in this conundrum.

Andreoli was the first ''designer'' who criticized Van den Hul

stylus shape which is based on the ''shape'' of the cutting

chisel by record production. ''Totaly wrong'' according to him.

I got the so celled ''inside information'' about the ''fine line''

used by (some) EMT carts. According to this story the material

used to cut records (aka ''lacquer'') is different than vinyl which

is used to produce records. Their ''fine line'' is , according to this

story, designed by considering this difference.

My interest is , as the most, based on my own believe so I

got one of those new SDS 6 carts with ''fine line stylus'' instead

of Gyger stylus which is the same as Van den Hul stylus. Van

den Hul designed all Gyger (kinds of) styli. 

chakster, To my big surprise I heard from my comrade Don

for the first time that those ''Stereohedron'' styli used by Stanton

are made by the Expert Stylus Co in UK. I had no idea that Expert

stylus produces styli. My first experience with them  was one

Nakaimichi 1000 in which beryllium cantilever their ''Paratrace''

stylus was fitted. I was so impressed that I posted to them my

Allaerts MC 2. Besides Axel refused to do ''only stylus'' retip

stating that this work is much more difficult then gluing a new

cantilever/stylus combo on the restant of the old cantilever.

However new cantilever/stylus combo cost 500 euro while

Paratrace retip cost only 180 GBP.  

I also own Stanton's 981/980 but don't believe that the new(?)

Paratrace is identical with ''Stereohedron''.

BTW I also forget to mention EMT next to Benz as European

cart producer. Their new JSD 5&6 are remarcable.

Dear Professor, The old Romans already stated ''de gustibus et

coloribus non est disputandum''. Kant assumed that Aristotelian

logic is perfect while the other German ,G. Frege , invented modern

logic. In terms of modern logic ''value statement'' are considered

to be ''not truth functional'' . That is to say that other criteria then

truth and falsity are involved. You mentioned ''art'' in contradistinction

to ''science'' actually in the same way as Frege deed. ''Art'' is about,

say, esthetics , good tastes,  beauty etc., which are as important to

humans as the science but don't presupose consensus.

That is why, say, Chakster prefer Ikeda's MM carts while I prefer

his MC carts (grin).

BTW I am very glad to see you back!

Hi chakster, the retips with boron cantilever and whatever stylus

cost about $500. Your best option is to do surgery by yourself.

The most of AT styli are fastened with a small crew on the inner

side. If you buy suitable donors with the right cantilever stylus

combo you can remove them from their stylus holder and put in

the holder with the missing cantilever. But you need to first study

the kinds of the styli holders then experiment with cheap samples

and then try the real thing. Because you like beryllium cantilevers

you should try to get those as donors.

Chakster, The first (philosophical) premise  of our hobby is:

''it depends'' . Despite  the abundance of the so called ''supply''

there is a shortage of the styli we need . The retippers get rich

by asking 500 euro for a simple job of gluing a new cantilever/

stylus combo on the restant of the old cantilever. Andreoli who

learned the ''art'' by those Aussie brothers declared to be able to

do this job in 5 minutes time. I am not sure if I made Axel rich

but the fact is that he could afford retirement(grin).

So all we need are those small screwdrivers which look like surgical

instruments. Then we need donors which are more abundant than

those in the real life. AT made two kinds of those ''styli holders''

as well one simple stylus / suspension construction such that

all of us who are not in possesion of two left hands can do the

surgery. BTW ''the white dot'' is paint and need to be removed

such that the screw which holds the cantiever can be losened

in order to remove the old- and put the new cantilever instead.

chakster, I also noticed that all (?) new boron cantilevers are

rods. The only way to glue them to the so called ''joint pipe''

is to use an aluminum tube in which the boron rod is glued.

So while we pretend to have boron cantilevers we actualy have

aluminum/boron combo. One can easely see this aluminum

tube behind the boron ''rod''. I assume that ''your'' vintage

hollow pipe boron can be directly glued to the joint pipe?

chakster, because Axel retired I wanted to try the ''Expert stylus''

about whom I was informed by my ''brother Don''. According to

him Expert stylus made those Stereohedron styli. I had no idea

that they also produce styli. But they have their own ''procedure''.

One need to first reserve his ''turn'' and wait till he get permission

to post his cart to them. The cart is inspected and , depending from

their finding, advice is provaided about what can be done. I got

one of those remarcable Nakamichi MC 1000 with beryllium

cantilever and broken stylus for cheap and asked for their Paratrace

stylus. To my big surprise I got the Paratrace beautifuly glued

in the cantilever for only 180 GBP. This price include their postage

back as well the inspection.

But now something ''totally different'' as those English comics are

used to say. I sold my AT 180 and 170 but still own two 160.

I think but am not sure that the same cantilever is used for all

3 kinds? The gold on the cantilever suggest this. Am I right?

Dear chakster, While I am talking about ''apples'' you are talking

about ''apples and pears'' . As if I own just one kid and you a

twin (grin). I am obssesed with MC carts you with both kinds.

But the cantilever/stylus combo's in both are like ''apples and

pears''. There is no way anybody among us can change the stylus

in his MC carts while anybody can change the stylus in his MM

cart. Provided those styli are available. Well regarding the retips of

both kind we differ radicaly from each other. I retiped just one of

my MM carts by Axel. When inspecting his work I dicovred that

he simpy glued a new cantilever/stylus combo on the ''restant''

of the old cantilever. The difference between both kinds is the

''inside construction'' such that all MC kinds are like twins while

by the MM carts there are many ways to ''skin the cat''. There are

MM kinds with so colled ''tension wire'' which in my opinion are

irreparable. AT cantilever/styli combos have specific complience

construction which looks like '' tension wire'' but is not. There is

a kind of ''elastic wire'' inside the tube which is fastened with

a small screw in the stylus holder ( which crew is ''coverd with

white paint''). As I described elsewhere by losening of this screw

the whole cantilever can be removed from the tube a new one

put instead and fastened with the mentioned screw . I am sure

that the cantilever in my AT 160 can be easily ''transplanted''

to your AT 180 or 170. But I don't believe that Expert Stylus can

fix your carts except if you only need new cantilever/stylus combo

which can be glued on the restant of your old cantilever. Like

by MM carts with tension wire the suspension by AT kinds can't

be fixed.

Dear chakster, The problem is that one is never sufficiently plain.

I should add as argument by my single MM retip that to it make

no sense to retip an MM cart which cost (me) 100 euro for 250

euro. I try not to make the same mistake twice. This explains

why I never retipped a second MM cart (grin).My statement that

anybody can change the stylus in an MM cart does not apply in

your case. The problem is not the stylus/cantilever but the stylus

protector on which the AT kind is marked (grin). I don't believe that

you will get ''the right price'' for your 180 with 160 stylus on its

''nose''. But if you own the stylus protector for your 180 you will

need to ''tansplant'' at least the stylus protector. BTW I have seen

you listings on eBay and was shocked. I had the illusion that MM

carts are much cheaper then the MC kind. You with your prices

changed the state of affairs. Are those prices for the carts without

styli? (grin).

Dear chakster, I can't remember when I  bought an MM cart last

time. I am only interested in MC kinds. Since the so clleed ''debt

crisis'' it become very difficultt to sell our stuff. So we need to be

inventive. As you stated eBay and PayPal are very expensive.

So one should avoid both but their rules seem to be different in

different countries. I list my carts on the (small) Dutch market

(Marktplaats.nl) and the (big) German market on their site

''audio-markt.de''.

I write all my listings in English because the American site

''sharphifi'' publish all second hand offerings of the Western

World. The Dutch market is for free , the German ''audio-markt''

charges 4 euro per item. I don't use any eBay to sell my items.

Their fees in Europe are 8% . But I do use PayPal for money

transfer since they introduced the new category of payment.

Anyway in Europe. The category is called ''transfer to friends

and family'' by which the fees are very low. I use PayPal

because of their ''protection'' . The money of the buyer is

 blocked for 21 days and function as ''protection'' in the sense

 that one can get his own money back if the seller is not

trustworthy or never posted the sold item. The procedure is

boring but losing money is much more worst. I have no idea

 about your Russian payment possibilities but am sure that you

 can list your stuff on the mentioned Dutch as well German site.

 In addition you get advertising for free by ''sharphifi''. I sold more

items to the foreigners then Dutchman via this Dutch site thanks

 to ''sharphifi''.

Dear chakster, I thought that you ar the fastest learning novice in

our forum. The best student Prof. Raul ever had. That is to say

with the highest ''learning curve'' among his students. The problem

however is that he hardly ever mentioned MC carts and their

peculiarities. Why do you think that nearly all Ikeda's carts have

lesser ouput then0,2 mV. Why are the most LOMC's called so?

Well the less wire is used for the coils the less is the moving mass

of the ''moving parts'' by an MC. More wire mean higher impedance

and higher moving mass. Those HOMC are made for people with

MM phono-pres and/or tube lovers. Except of course our Lew who

can even ''drive'' (my former) Ortofon MC 2000 in his extraordinary

tube phono-pre. But we, the others, are ordinary humans, not able

to solder two simple risisitors while he can improve electrostatics,

amplifiers, phono-pres , TT plinths and even Italian sport cars.

If I was an microbe I would fear him as the death. Not because

of his electronic capabilities but because of his real profession.

Anyway I can't help you with HOMC's because I never considered

this (inferior) kind (grin).

Dear chakster, You are an novice while I am member of this forum

since 2007. Back then my German was much better than my English

so I become also member of the so called ''German group'' (alias

''German mafia'' according to Raul). This group consisted of

Dertonarm, Syntax and Thuchan. Those were the persons whom

I consulted about my stuff. Three radical different persons :

Dertonarm the genius, Thuchan ''the nice guy'' and Syntax the

real follower of Kant's ''absolute truth'' but in the sense that for

him his opinions were absolute truths. Lew used the expression

''acerbic'' to describe Syntax but I needed to check  my English

vocabulary because I have never heard this word before. Our

Lew's eloquence is inaccessible so no wonder I wanted him as

my English teacher. Well Dertonarm advised me back then to

use a SUT in combo with one of those FR-7 kinds. He sweared

by FR-66 s and , I think, FR-7 fz. But his ''theory'' was that an

LOMC and SUT are two sides of the same coin. That is to say

that both should be as ''made for each other'' qua impedance and

inductance. Despite my ''endless'' admiration I deed no followed

his advice. My reason based on his theory was that I would

need at least 10 SUT's for my collection. With those MC's I was

on my own. I bought all carts ''of the month'' which Raul

recommended because I trusted his ears much more then his

''theories''. But when I bought my first FR-7 a changed my

''religion''. So I first try two FR SUT's and then discovered

Denon AU-S1 which covers 2-40 Ohms carts. Ergo: one

SUT for all my MC carts. I like Dover but also my Denon.

As Aritstotels said about his friend Plato: ''I like Plato but

the truth even more''.

Dear chakster, I checked your Luxman and assume that ''sale

pending'' apply to you (grin). Since Kondo san we all believe

in (old Italian) silver merely because we assume that ''the higher

the price the better the object of our disire''. While I don't believe in

''silver wonder'' I was well looking for the FR- silver kind. Impressing

our friends is also important. I was  not able to find the silver FR so

 I bought first the FR- TRX 4 and then XF-1 (low impedance). I

switched to Denon when I discovered his, uh, ''impedance range''.

Considering the price of the silver FR  I think you got a bargain with

 your Luxman. Considring Kondo san (silver) prices you are an

Lucky bast...

My situation is curious in the sense that I own two of those AU-S1.

The seller of my Allaerts persisted on buying both together. So

I own next to my used AU-S1 also a brand new one. Those

are still in production and can be bought by ''lpgear'' for a price

which my modesty does not allow to mention(grin).

So, in some sence, I am in the same situation as with my MM

carts. So much efforts to get them and now even more effort

is needed to get rid of them .

Dear Lew, We both admire Mark Twain so my comment about

your curious explanation of the word ''Acerbic'' is, say, in his

''spirit'': ''The rumour that Lew wants Serbians to disappear is

exaggerated''.

To show how kind Serbians are I will make you this proposition.

But I need some kind of introduction first. Like Ikeda's series

FR 7 MC carts Mori san designed XL series MC carts for Sony.

The aim was to get leading position in production of MC carts.

The XL 88 D with diamond cantilever and stylus made from one

piece of diamond was, back then in the 80 is the most expensive

cart. According to Thuchan who, of course, owns one the XL 88

was more expensive in Germany then Volkswagen.

The rest of the series consisted of 88 with boron, XL 55 Pro,

XL 44 L, etc. The XL 55 Pro was  the most popular while the

XL 44 was hardly known. Except, of course, to Raul who was very

fond of this cart but I can't remember if he compared the 44

with Ortofon MC 2000. The case is that both have similar compliance

but different output: 0.05mV versus 0,4 mV fot the Sony.

Well my proposition is to lend you my Sony XL 44  so you can

check your assertion about the co-relation between compliance

and reproduction of the piano music. If you somehow fell in love

wiht my Sony I am willing to exchange the cart for your Kenwood.

jpjones, If you are interested in exchange or in sale of your 88D

let me know. I will be glad to post to you some pictures of my

 MC  collection or the list of my MM collection.

Dear Lew, Vergelius (the Roman ) stated: ''I fear the Greek even

when they bring presents''. I see that you exchanged Greeks for

the Germans while the Serbians may vanish as far as you are

concerned. Even their presents (aka Sony 44) are not welcome.

You prefer to buy Ortofon SUT made for the MC 2000 even before

you got any idea about its price. What happened with American

pragmatism?

Dear Lew, I never asked Axel for a particular retip or stylus kind

because our agreement was that he should use the best parts

available to him. His best back then was fine line pressure fitted

in aluminum/magnesium alloy cantilever. Ask ''our Aussie'' who

got the same cantilever/stylus combo for his FR-7f. Axel's work

was better than Japanese whom Dertonarm used and recommended

to ,uh, Henry. Those combo's are used up and Axel's new champion

is boron/nude Shibata combo. The later are used in my later

retips. But I also own the original MC 2000 which you can get

together with my Sony to try. I thought that you wanted to test

your assertion about the co-relation between compliance and

piano music. This was my reason to offer to you my Sony to

try. I am at present ''loaded'' with new carts so this Sony as well

the Ortofon are collecting dust in my cabinet. So to speak that

is. BTW ''some man prefer blonde'' and those are more abundant

in Holland than Serbia (grin).

Dear Lew, All cart producers, even Van den Hul, get their styli/

cantilevers combos from their supplier. As far as I know only

Van den Hul also owns an retip service in which the same combo's

are used for retip. Other producer offer exchange for the new carts

or ''refurbishing'' by which a new generator is put instead  the old

one in the same body. My Koetsu Rosewood Signature is

 refurbished this way but for 2000 euro by Koetsu. Ortofon offers

 no retips but well echange as mentioned. Some persons have no

idea what they are talking about but repeat the same ''song '' as

an broken record.

Addition. In order to understand what is involved by an retip one

need to have ''some idea'' about MC cart construction. Easy to

find on internet under ''mc cartridge construction''.

The ''nose'' of the MC cart consist of cantilever/stylus combo

which are glued in the aluminum tube which is part of the movable

construction with coil (armature). It is obvious that the movable parts

need to be as light as possible. One way to do this is by reducing

the number of coil windings with as result the reduction of the

cart output. Less wire means lower output as well lower impedance.

This (movable) part is connected with the so called ''tension wire''

with the back side of the generator. One can see those screws on

the generator which function is to center and adjust the tension

wire. The front side by the armature (aka coils) has an aluminum

tube in which the cantilever is glued. By an retip either the new

cantilever is glued in this tube by removing the old (part) of

the cantilever or an aluminum tube is used to bridge both parts

and glue them together. The only thing the retipper need to care

for is the right (original) lengh of the cantilever. So no some kind

of ''higher art'' is needed  to put the new cantilever/stylus combo

in the mentioned tube. That this work can ''only be done in the

right way'' by the original manufacturer is a myth. Obviously

caused by ignorance regarding the MC construction. BTW the

person in question stated himself that one of his MC 2000 was

retipped by Van den Hul. Why not by Ortofon???

This simple way to retip the cart with cantilever/stylus combo

''explains'' why gluing the stylus in the existing cantilever is

much more difficult.

Dear chakster, Your ''story'' about MC 2000 is consistent with my

story about MC construction in general. I also underline the

importance of the moving mass of the involved moving parts.

I also mentioned that by reducing the lenght of the coil wire one

can reduce the moving mass but at the cost of the reduced output.

Without any experience with MC 2000 and Sony XL 44 one can

assume that MC 2000 should be faster because of the output

difference : 0.05 mV versus 0.3 mV for the Sony ( I made an error

with 0.4 mV). I would add fastness next to ''Lew's'' complience in

the context of piano reproduction. Dynamics which is so important

by piano music must be connected with the ''speed'' of reactios

of the moving parts.

Regarding Axel's retip I would say that his ''fine line '' which was

very carefull polished should be an better stylus than original

by MC 2000 while the aluminum ''tubed'' cantilever should be as

light as the Ortofon. But there is this ''pudding'' in which people

believe more than ''stories'' while our dear Lew has the chance

to ''taste'' both. Actually all 3: two MC's 2000 + Sony XL 44 l.

Not bad to have some friends from the former Eastern block.

Not to mention his youth love Dostojevsky.

Dear Lew, I mentioned comparison with Sony XL 44 which I

described as similar and made you my proposition to lend

you the Sony for your own comparison. Comparison imply that

I tested both. But because you was wondering about possible

 difference between retipped and original MC 2000 I offered you

 also the original because I also own the original . I got

 this one two years ago or so. However my recent obtained

cartridges are Allaerts MC2 , Ikeda 9 TT, Urushi Blue Sky and

Transfiguration Phoenix S which are in a different league. So I

spend not much time with Ortofon. Nor with Sony and wrote

that both are ''collecting dust'' in my cabinet. So I can afford to

lend you both. It is an offer and not an sacrifice.

Regret my dear chakster is always afterward. When we have already

spend the money which we could use for, say, a container with

records instead (grin).

The sense of our forum is the shared passion. But it would make

no sense whatever to tell ''normal people'' how many carts you own.

They would not say that because of politeness but will think that you

belong in a lunatic asylium. Only ''common passions'' like love for

your country is considered to be ''nomal'' . Many other kinds are

consdered to be abnormal. Besides our forum is the only place

where you can complain about your errors. That is obvious reason

for your so many ''contributions'' (grin).

I have no problem to confess that my musical vocabulary is pretty

restricted so I would need , next to my theacher Lew for my English

some musicologist as theacher . In the context of ''ignorance level''

my musical vocabulary could be quilify as ''poor level of knowledge''.

Because of this ''poor level'' I am not able to grasp the meaning of

the ''concept should be '' in ,uh, musical (e) valuation. I am not sure

if there are musicologist among our members but there must be

some misicians who can explain to us in ''plain English'' what

''should be''  should mean.

enginedr, we are heading in the analog direction so you obviously

missed the right direction  which is called digital. This is a separate

discussion forum. But considering the number of your post such

thing can happen to a novice.

enginedr, Raul introduced his ''concept should be''. I stated that

I am not able to grasp this ''concept''. As far as I know he owns

 more than 100 cartridges of both ''alternatives'' but never mentioned

the ''should be one''. How many more will he need? The other

problem is that ''concepts'' , ''terms'' etc.,  are expressions which

belong to language . We call those ''meanings'' but reality is not

linguistic . That is why we ask for the correspondence between

statements (not words)  and reality. There are unknown many

languages but only one reality . All true statements regardles of

languages  should tell ''the same story''.

We the ''believers'' have our own churches. You are like an

Protestant who is telling us the Catholics that our believe is

wrong and your and Raul's right.  But you have your own church

called ''digital'' . What do you want in our church?

My proposition is throw Lew out of our church. He is obviously not

a true believer. One can't be everyone's friend . Well of course

pretend to be. There is one American expression for such conduct

but I love the guy and try to avoid insulting expressions.  

One can try to tune his Stradivarius with the help of an electronic

vilolin. In terms of modernism the electric kind is more modern.

But I am interested in the way Raul ''tunes'' his imagined authority

with his so called ''concepts''. Anyway ''concepts'' are not the things

which can be true or fals . Those are sentences, statements or

propositions . Anyway complete sentences and not words or

concepts. Since Frege the inventor of modern logic this become

clear. Well Raul invented  his concept of ''ignorance level'', the

concept of ''learning curve'', the concept of ''distortions '' and now

the concept of ''should be''. The meaning of all those concepts

was/is  to show his own superiority. This is in particular painful

by the concept of ''learning curve'' by a person who after writting

in English for more than 20 years is still not able to produce or

compose one single decent English sentence.

However  in the country  of the blind, the one- eyed man is  king.

Dear frogman,  I kind of ''ordered'' an musicologist or musician as

theacher next to Lew my English theacher. The  reason being the

lack of musical vocabulary. In the context of ''should bé'' concept.

But we have had an interesting dicussion before in the context of

the qustion ''nurture or nature'' in our musical prefrences. My

thesis being that nurture is much more important than nature.

We actualy ''endure'' music in our upbringing and learn to like

music kind avaiable in our cultural enviroment. I am from Balkan

and influenced by Bulgarian, Romanian, Serbian and Italian  

folk music. The Italian ''Napolitan songs'' and Italian opera's

are obviously connected. Depending on what is nurtured in each

contry will show what kind of music the new generation will

prefer. To make my point about nurture I mentioned Chinese

opera which is '' unbearable'' for us but obviously not because

of our nature but nurture. You agreed then with me and told us

how much difficulties you had to ''accomodate'' to Chinese

opera. We in the West or rather Europe have an ubelievable

welth of musical tradition which is in danger by American

artificial amplified trash music which kids in the whole world

use like fast food. Each kid has on his ears those big  earphones

which produce deafening sounds which may sound to them as

music. The question MM or MC carts looks pretty silly in this

context.

Dear Frogman, Me hard on myself? I should mention my carts

'of the month' before. I own 11 baby's which I, as a good dad,

equally love. While I am not a Muslim I want one more but need

to search further. The Ikeda 9 REX is difficult to find.  Changing

carts is a joy which probably only harem owners will recognize(grin).

The name of each baby is: 1. Allaerts MC2 , 2. Magic Diamond,

3. Benz LP mr, 4. Ikeda 9 TT, 5.  Urushi Sky Blue, 6. FR-7fz, 7.

Ikeda 9 C, 8. Transfigurtion Poenix S, 9. ZYX Airy 3, 10. Miyaby

standard, 11. Kiseki Gold Spot.

There is no other place where I can ''show off'' with my riches

then in this forum with the same kind of addicts (grin).

The rest of the human kind thinks that one cart is sufficient.

Roberjerman, If you have seen my collection of MC carts you can

see many Fidelity Research carts among them. Assuming that you

also own FR-64/66 or the new Ikeda tonearms you should try one

of the FR-7 kinds. The right SUT you already  own. You may believe

that your FR-1mk 3 is the best but such statement can't be made

without comparison with some other MC carts.

Dear chakster, in the Koetsu thread I asked (retorical) question:

''why should anyone want more or better than Urushi Blue Sky?''

But this looks like the question Marie Antoinette asked when she

was told that people protest because they have no bread to eat.

''Why then'', she asked , ''they don't eat cakes instead?''

Well in order to have (more) choices by ''edibles'' more, uh, edibles

are needed. While I was on my own by my MC search I also got

some help from the ''German group''. Dertonarm advised Ikeda's

and Syntax (''your'') Miyabi. To love all my baby's equaly I learnd

from my brother /comrade Don. I see that you also prefer to be

on your own in your search for Eldorado. Neither of your ''stuff''

is ever recommended in this forum as far as I know. Complaining

then about the fact that nobody else owns ''your stuff'' is, well,

 very curious  (grin). 

Dear chackster, you begin to look like the Mexican oracle.

You seem to even know better which MC cartridges I own then

I myself. I first mentioned my recent 5 and and last my carts of

''the month''. That is to say for 11 months of the year. Those are

mentioned in two of my contributions. So you exgaggerate when

you say ''he keep repeating them all in every 3 post''.  BTW I own

about 40 MC and also about 40 MM carts. Do you really

know them all? For my MC carts I got advice from Dertonarm and

Syntax . Those are two persons. All the rest I have sellected by my

self. That is what I meant by my statement that with MC carts I

was on my own. I think that you ar also ''on your own'' in search

for new carts. I certainly undertand your search because I deed

the same. BTW my latest is the Phoenix S which is recently

produced so obviously new.

Dear chakster, my story about Marie Antoinette who advised

her people to eat cookies instead of bread reminded me about

saturation. Everybody can at present buy more bread than

he needs. There are of course different kinds and gradations

by saturation but it is obvious that this thread as well its

''subject'' (aka carts) may have reached saturation bondaries.

You as novice may mourn about this ''natural process'' but

anyway you are aware of this ''state of affairs'' as you wrote

in your last post. For the ''older members'' however your implicite

criteria do not apply. That is why many left this thread or even

the whole forum. There is also this ''owners change'' by A'gon

with introduction of a new kind of inquisition called ''moderators''

which further weakened members motivtion. Those who are still

members are motivated by comradery and friendship rather

than by the forum as such.

Dear frogman, I learned much from logician since Frege. He

first exlained that the simple grammar of the ''S is P'' form

contains 4 different logical forms. Consider for our contex the

quantifier ''all'' in the ''S'' place. The most people see this ''S''

place as the place where a name belongs. But ''all'', ''some'', ''most'',

etc. are not names. We the Serbians would like to kill all Croats

and other way round. We assume that like an particular object all

Croats have the same property ; the bad one. This make no sense

because there are no two persons in the world who are identical (aka

''the same'')  To say whatever about ''all Croats'' the necessary

condition is to know them all individualy.

As a kind of ''opposition'' in relation to ''universal quantifier'' (''all'')

there is the so called ''numerical quantifier''. Say: ''there are exactly

40 person in this class''.

We in Europe have problems with refugee. There is political division

between those who want ''all refugee to get asylum'' and those

who ask the question ''how many can we bear?'' The curious thing

is that no single politician in Europe has mentioned any number.

At last ''digital versus analog''. Digital must have ''nummerical values''

analog has ''universal values''. Like the generative capability of

language to produce ''endless numbers of sentences with limited

numbers of words'' the musicians are capable to produce ''endless''

variations in musical expression. Numerical limitation would kill

creative expression.

Digital signal (numerical values) can only approximate analog

signal ( ''endless'' values) so it logicaly follow that digital can't

surpass analog. Anlog weakness is ''mechanical'' digital weakness

is theoretical and practical.

Dear chakster, Even defective styli can be used to learn. If you

cut the tension wire at the end of the stylus tube and losen 3

small srews you can get the whole ''generator'' out.  That is to

say cantilever, magnet , the rubber ring and tension wire. Then

you will see what is involved by restoring the whole in the reverse.

My dear brother, There are no clear nor sensible rules about

writing native names in English or other languages . Example

 ''Wien'' versus Vienna. In Dutch ''Wenen'' and Serbian ''Bec''

for the same city in Austria. My ''Stolnicnaja'' is the Serbian

(chirilic) version of your capital city wodka.

BTW my Ikeda ''misses'' (aka ''does not need'') the cantilever

but can't do without suspension.  With your encyclopedic knowledge

 about carts you should not mix up parts . But it is true that the

first produced TT's deed their job without suspension. That is

to say with ''your stylus only''.

Dear chakster, What kind of ''Slavic brother'' are you when you

obviously have no idea that all Serbians family names end with

''ic''?

Your theory about lowriders is as curious as by Mexican oracle.

According to him there is no such thing as ''lowrider''. According

to you ''it depends from the stylus lenght''. I assume that the

probable cause is (too much) Stolnickaja (grin).

Hi all, j. carr ever proposed to extend this thread to other kinds

of carts. I started this thread but, alas, nobody was interested.

However if there are members who own either: Panasonic strain

gauge EPC 450, 451,etc,; Toshiba electret C 400 or Stax CP-Y

I got the address of an lab in Slovenia where those can be fixed,

improved ,etc. www. eselab.si