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Who needs a MM cartridge type when we have MC?

Dear friends: who really needs an MM type phono cartridge?, well I will try to share/explain with you what are my experiences about and I hope too that many of you could enrich the topic/subject with your own experiences.

For some years ( in this forum ) and time to time I posted that the MM type cartridge quality sound is better than we know or that we think and like four months ago I start a thread about: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1173550723&openusid&zzRauliruegas&4&5#Rauliruegas where we analyse some MM type cartridges.

Well, in the last 10-12 months I buy something like 30+ different MM type phono cartridges ( you can read in my virtual system which ones. ) and I’m still doing it. The purpose of this fact ( “ buy it “ ) is for one way to confirm or not if really those MM type cartridges are good for us ( music lovers ) and at the same time learn about MM vs MC cartridges, as a fact I learn many things other than MM/MC cartridge subject.

If we take a look to the Agon analog members at least 90% of them use ( only ) MC phono cartridges, if we take a look to the “ professional reviewers “ ( TAS, Stereophile, Positive Feedback, Enjoy the Music, etc, etc, ) 95% ( at least ) of them use only MC cartridges ( well I know that for example: REG and NG of TAS and RJR of Stereophile use only MM type cartridges!!!!!!!! ) , if we take a look to the phono cartridge manufacturers more than 90% of them build/design for MC cartridges and if you speak with audio dealers almost all will tell you that the MC cartridges is the way to go.

So, who are wrong/right, the few ( like me ) that speak that the MM type is a very good alternative or the “ whole “ cartridge industry that think and support the MC cartridge only valid alternative?

IMHO I think that both groups are not totally wrong/right and that the subject is not who is wrong/right but that the subject is : KNOW-HOW or NON KNOW-HOW about.

Many years ago when I was introduced to the “ high end “ the cartridges were almost MM type ones: Shure, Stanton, Pickering, Empire, etc, etc. In those time I remember that one dealer told me that if I really want to be nearest to the music I have to buy the Empire 4000 D ( they say for 4-channel reproduction as well. ) and this was truly my first encounter with a “ high end cartridge “, I buy the 4000D I for 70.00 dls ( I can’t pay 150.00 for the D III. ), btw the specs of these Empire cartridges were impressive even today, look: frequency response: 5-50,000Hz, channel separation: 35db, tracking force range: 0.25grs to 1.25grs!!!!!!!!, just impressive, but there are some cartridges which frequency response goes to 100,000Hz!!!!!!!!!!

I start to learn about and I follow to buying other MM type cartridges ( in those times I never imagine nothing about MC cartridges: I don’t imagine of its existence!!!. ) like AKG, Micro Acoustics, ADC, B&O, Audio Technica, Sonus, etc, etc.

Years latter the same dealer told me about the MC marvelous cartridges and he introduce me to the Denon-103 following with the 103-D and the Fulton High performance, so I start to buy and hear MC cartridges. I start to read audio magazines about either cartridge type: MM and Mc ones.

I have to make changes in my audio system ( because of the low output of the MC cartridges and because I was learning how to improve the performance of my audio system ) and I follow what the reviewers/audio dealers “ speak “ about, I was un-experienced !!!!!!!, I was learning ( well I’m yet. ).

I can tell you many good/bad histories about but I don’t want that the thread was/is boring for you, so please let me tell you what I learn and where I’m standing today about:

over the years I invested thousands of dollars on several top “ high end “ MC cartridges, from the Sumiko Celebration passing for Lyras, Koetsu, Van denHul, to Allaerts ones ( just name it and I can tell that I own or owned. ), what I already invest on MC cartridges represent almost 70-80% price of my audio system.

Suddenly I stop buying MC cartridges and decide to start again with some of the MM type cartridges that I already own and what I heard motivate me to start the search for more of those “ hidden jewels “ that are ( here and now ) the MM phono cartridges and learn why are so good and how to obtain its best quality sound reproduction ( as a fact I learn many things other than MM cartridge about. ).

I don’t start this “ finding “ like a contest between MC and MM type cartridges.
The MC cartridges are as good as we already know and this is not the subject here, the subject is about MM type quality performance and how achieve the best with those cartridges.

First than all I try to identify and understand the most important characteristics ( and what they “ means “. ) of the MM type cartridges ( something that in part I already have it because our phonolinepreamp design needs. ) and its differences with the MC ones.

Well, first than all is that are high output cartridges, very high compliance ones ( 50cu is not rare. ), low or very low tracking force ones, likes 47kOhms and up, susceptible to some capacitance changes, user stylus replacement, sometimes we can use a different replacement stylus making an improvement with out the necessity to buy the next top model in the cartridge line , low and very low weight cartridges, almost all of them are build of plastic material with aluminum cantilever and with eliptical or “ old “ line contact stylus ( shibata ) ( here we don’t find: Jade/Coral/Titanium/etc, bodies or sophisticated build material cantilevers and sophisticated stylus shape. ), very very… what I say? Extremely low prices from 40.00 to 300.00 dls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, well one of my cartridges I buy it for 8.99 dls ( one month ago ): WOW!!!!!!, so any one of you can/could have/buy ten to twenty MM cartridges for the price of one of the MC cartridge you own today and the good notice is that is a chance that those 10-20 MM type cartridges even the quality performance of your MC cartridge or beat it.

Other characteristics is that the builders show how proud they were/are on its MM type cartridges design, almost all those cartridges comes with a first rate box, comes with charts/diagrams of its frequency response and cartridge channel separation ( where they tell us which test recording use it, with which VTF, at which temperature, etc, etc. ), comes with a very wide explanation of the why’s and how’s of its design and the usual explanation to mount the cartridge along with a very wide list of specifications ( that were the envy of any of today MC ones where sometimes we really don’t know nothing about. ), comes with a set of screws/nuts, comes with a stylus brush and even with stylus cleaning fluid!!!!!!!!!, my GOD. Well, there are cartridges like the Supex SM 100MK2 that comes with two different stylus!!!! One with spherical and one with elliptical/shibata shape and dear friends all those in the same low low price!!!!!!!!!!!

Almost all the cartridges I own you can find it through Ebay and Agon and through cartridge dealers and don’t worry if you loose/broke the stylus cartridge or you find the cartridge but with out stylus, you always can/could find the stylus replacement, no problem about there are some stylus and cartridge sources.

When I’m talking about MM type cartridges I’m refer to different types: moving magnet, moving iron, moving flux, electret, variable reluctance, induced magnet, etc, etc. ( here is not the place to explain the differences on all those MM type cartridges. Maybe on other future thread. ).

I made all my very long ( time consuming ) cartridge tests using four different TT’s: Acoustic Signature Analog One MK2, Micro Seiki RX-5000, Luxman PD 310 and Technics SP-10 MK2, I use only removable headshell S and J shape tonearms with 15mm on overhang, I use different material build/ shape design /weight headshells. I test each cartridge in at least three different tonearms and some times in 3-4 different headshells till I find the “ right “ match where the cartridge perform the best, no I’m not saying that I already finish or that I already find the “ perfect “ match: cartridge/headshell/tonearm but I think I’m near that ideal target.

Through my testing experience I learn/ confirm that trying to find the right tonearm/headshell for any cartridge is well worth the effort and more important that be changing the TT. When I switch from a TT to another different one the changes on the quality cartridge performance were/are minimal in comparison to a change in the tonearm/headshell, this fact was consistent with any of those cartridges including MC ones.

So after the Phonolinepreamplifier IMHO the tonearm/headshell match for any cartridge is the more important subject, it is so important and complex that in the same tonearm ( with the same headshell wires ) but with different headshell ( even when the headshell weight were the same ) shape or build material headshell the quality cartridge performance can/could be way different.

All those experiences told me that chances are that the cartridge that you own ( MC or MM ) is not performing at its best because chances are that the tonearm you own is not the best match for that cartridge!!!!!!, so imagine what do you can/could hear when your cartridge is or will be on the right tonearm???!!!!!!!!, IMHO there are ( till today ) no single ( any type at any price ) perfect universal tonearm. IMHO there is no “ the best tonearm “, what exist or could exist is a “ best tonearm match for “ that “ cartridge “, but that’s all. Of course that are “ lucky “ tonearms that are very good match for more than one cartridge but don’t for every single cartridge.

I posted several times that I’m not a tonearm collector, that I own all those tonearms to have alternatives for my cartridges and with removable headshells my 15 tonearms are really like 100+ tonearms : a very wide options/alternatives for almost any cartridge!!!!!!

You can find several of these MM type cartridges new brand or NOS like: Ortofon, Nagaoka, Audio Technica, Astatic, B&O, Rega, Empire, Sonus Reson,Goldring,Clearaudio, Grado, Shelter, Garrot, etc. and all of them second hand in very good operational condition. As a fact I buy two and even three cartridges of the same model in some of the cartridges ( so right now I have some samples that I think I don’t use any more. ) to prevent that one of them arrive in non operational condition but I’m glad to say that all them arrive in very fine conditions. I buy one or two of the cartridges with no stylus or with the stylus out of work but I don’t have any trouble because I could find the stylus replacement on different sources and in some case the original new replacement.

All these buy/find cartridges was very time consuming and we have to have a lot of patience and a little lucky to obtain what we are looking for but I can asure you that is worth of it.

Ok, I think it is time to share my performance cartridge findings:

first we have to have a Phonolinepreamplifier with a very good MM phono stage ( at least at the same level that the MC stage. ). I’m lucky because my Phonolinepreamplifier has two independent phono stages, one for the MM and one for MC: both were designed for the specifics needs of each cartridge type, MM or MC that have different needs.

we need a decent TT and decent tonearm.

we have to load the MM cartridges not at 47K but at 100K ( at least 75K not less. ).

I find that using 47K ( a standard manufacture recommendation ) prevent to obtain the best quality performance, 100K make the difference. I try this with all those MM type cartridges and in all of them I achieve the best performance with 100K load impedance.

I find too that using the manufacturer capacitance advise not always is for the better, till “ the end of the day “ I find that between 100-150pf ( total capacitance including cable capacitance. ) all the cartridges performs at its best.

I start to change the load impedance on MM cartridges like a synonymous that what many of us made with MC cartridges where we try with different load impedance values, latter I read on the Empire 4000 DIII that the precise load impedance must be 100kOhms and in a white paper of some Grace F9 tests the used impedance value was 100kOhms, the same that I read on other operational MM cartridge manual and my ears tell/told me that 100kOhms is “ the value “.

Before I go on I want to remember you that several of those MM type cartridges ( almost all ) were build more than 30+ years ago!!!!!!!! and today performs at the same top quality level than today MC/MM top quality cartridges!!!!!, any brand at any price and in some ways beat it.

I use 4-5 recordings that I know very well and that give me the right answers to know that any cartridge is performing at its best or near it. Many times what I heard through those recordings were fine: everything were on target however the music don’t come “ alive “ don’t “ tell me “ nothing, I was not feeling the emotion that the music can communicate. In those cartridge cases I have to try it in other tonearm and/or with a different headshell till the “ feelings comes “ and only when this was achieved I then was satisfied.

All the tests were made with a volume level ( SPL ) where the recording “ shines “ and comes alive like in a live event. Sometimes changing the volume level by 1-1.5 db fixed everything.

Of course that the people that in a regular manner attend to hear/heard live music it will be more easy to know when something is right or wrong.

Well, Raul go on!!: one characteristic on the MM cartridges set-up was that almost all them likes to ride with a positive ( little/small ) VTA only the Grace Ruby and F9E and Sonus Gold Blue likes a negative VTA , on the other hand with the Nagaoka MP 50 Super and the Ortofon’s I use a flat VTA.

Regarding the VTF I use the manufacturer advise and sometimes 0.1+grs.
Of course that I made fine tuning through moderate changes in the Azymuth and for anti-skate I use between half/third VTF value.

I use different material build headshells: aluminum, composite aluminum, magnesium, composite magnesium, ceramic, wood and non magnetic stainless steel, these cartridges comes from Audio Technica, Denon, SAEC, Technics, Fidelity Research, Belldream, Grace, Nagaoka, Koetsu, Dynavector and Audiocraft.
All of them but the wood made ( the wood does not likes to any cartridge. ) very good job . It is here where a cartridge could seems good or very good depending of the headshell where is mounted and the tonearm.
Example, I have hard time with some of those cartridge like the Audio Technica AT 20SS where its performance was on the bright sound that sometimes was harsh till I find that the ceramic headshell was/is the right match now this cartridge perform beautiful, something similar happen with the Nagaoka ( Jeweltone in Japan ), Shelter , Grace, Garrot , AKG and B&O but when were mounted in the right headshell/tonearm all them performs great.

Other things that you have to know: I use two different cooper headshell wires, both very neutral and with similar “ sound “ and I use three different phono cables, all three very neutral too with some differences on the sound performance but nothing that “ makes the difference “ on the quality sound of any of my cartridges, either MM or MC, btw I know extremely well those phono cables: Analysis Plus, Harmonic Technologies and Kimber Kable ( all three the silver models. ), finally and don’t less important is that those phono cables were wired in balanced way to take advantage of my Phonolinepreamp fully balanced design.

What do you note the first time you put your MM cartridge on the record?, well a total absence of noise/hum or the like that you have through your MC cartridges ( and that is not a cartridge problem but a Phonolinepreamp problem due to the low output of the MC cartridges. ), a dead silent black ( beautiful ) soundstage where appear the MUSIC performance, this experience alone is worth it.

The second and maybe the most important MM cartridge characteristic is that you hear/heard the MUSIC flow/run extremely “ easy “ with no distracting sound distortions/artifacts ( I can’t explain exactly this very important subject but it is wonderful ) even you can hear/heard “ sounds/notes “ that you never before heard it and you even don’t know exist on the recording: what a experience!!!!!!!!!!!

IMHO I think that the MUSIC run so easily through a MM cartridge due ( between other facts ) to its very high compliance characteristic on almost any MM cartridge.

This very high compliance permit ( between other things like be less sensitive to out-center hole records. ) to these cartridges stay always in contact with the groove and never loose that groove contact not even on the grooves that were recorded at very high velocity, something that a low/medium cartridge compliance can’t achieve, due to this low/medium compliance characteristic the MC cartridges loose ( time to time and depending of the recorded velocity ) groove contact ( minute extremely minute loose contact, but exist. ) and the quality sound performance suffer about and we can hear it, the same pass with the MC cartridges when are playing the inner grooves on a record instead the very high compliance MM cartridges because has better tracking drive perform better than the MC ones at inner record grooves and here too we can hear it.

Btw, some Agoners ask very worried ( on more than one Agon thread ) that its cartridge can’t track ( clean ) the cannons on the 1812 Telarc recording and usually the answers that different people posted were something like this: “””” don’t worry about other than that Telarc recording no other commercial recording comes recorded at that so high velocity, if you don’t have trouble with other of your LP’s then stay calm. “””””

Well, this standard answer have some “ sense “ but the people ( like me ) that already has/have the experience to hear/heard a MM or MC ( like the Ortofon MC 2000 or the Denon DS1, high compliance Mc cartridges. ) cartridge that pass easily the 1812 Telarc test can tell us that those cartridges make a huge difference in the quality sound reproduction of any “ normal “ recording, so it is more important that what we think to have a better cartridge tracking groove drive!!!!

There are many facts around the MM cartridge subject but till we try it in the right set-up it will be ( for some people ) difficult to understand “ those beauties “. Something that I admire on the MM cartridges is how ( almost all of them ) they handle the frequency extremes: the low bass with the right pitch/heft/tight/vivid with no colorations of the kind “ organic !!” that many non know-how people speak about, the highs neutral/open/transparent/airy believable like the live music, these frequency extremes handle make that the MUSIC flow in our minds to wake up our feelings/emotions that at “ the end of the day “ is all what a music lover is looking for.
These not means that these cartridges don’t shine on the midrange because they do too and they have very good soundstage but here is more system/room dependent.

Well we have a very good alternative on the ( very low price ) MM type cartridges to achieve that music target and I’m not saying that you change your MC cartridge for a MM one: NO, what I’m trying to tell you is that it is worth to have ( as many you can buy/find ) the MM type cartridges along your MC ones

I want to tell you that I can live happy with any of those MM cartridges and I’m not saying with this that all of them perform at the same quality level NO!! what I’m saying is that all of them are very good performers, all of them approach you nearest to the music.

If you ask me which one is the best I can tell you that this will be a very hard “ call “ an almost impossible to decide, I think that I can make a difference between the very good ones and the stellar ones where IMHO the next cartridges belongs to this group:

Audio Technica ATML 170 and 180 OCC, Grado The Amber Tribute, Grace Ruby, Garrot P77, Nagaoka MP-50 Super, B&O MMC2 and MMC20CL, AKG P8ES SuperNova, Reson Reca ,Astatic MF-100 and Stanton LZS 981.

There are other ones that are really near this group: ADC Astrion, Supex MF-100 MK2, Micro Acoustics MA630/830, Empire 750 LTD and 600LAC, Sonus Dimension 5, Astatic MF-200 and 300 and the Acutex 320III.

The other ones are very good too but less refined ones.
I try too ( owned or borrowed for a friend ) the Shure IV and VMR, Music maker 2-3 and Clearaudio Virtuoso/Maestro, from these I could recommended only the Clearaudios the Shure’s and Music Maker are almost mediocre ones performers.
I forgot I try to the B&O Soundsmith versions, well this cartridges are good but are different from the original B&O ( that I prefer. ) due that the Sounsmith ones use ruby cantilevers instead the original B&O sapphire ones that for what I tested sounds more natural and less hi-fi like the ruby ones.

What I learn other that the importance on the quality sound reproduction through MM type cartridges?, well that unfortunately the advance in the design looking for a better quality cartridge performers advance almost nothing either on MM and MC cartridges.

Yes, today we have different/advanced body cartridge materials, different cantilever build materials, different stylus shape/profile, different, different,,,,different, but the quality sound reproduction is almost the same with cartridges build 30+ years ago and this is a fact. The same occur with TT’s and tonearms. Is sad to speak in this way but it is what we have today. Please, I’m not saying that some cartridges designs don’t grow up because they did it, example: Koetsu they today Koetsu’s are better performers that the old ones but against other cartridges the Koetsu ones don’t advance and many old and today cartridges MM/MC beat them easily.

Where I think the audio industry grow-up for the better are in electronic audio items ( like the Phonolinepreamps ), speakers and room treatment, but this is only my HO.

I know that there are many things that I forgot and many other things that we have to think about but what you can read here is IMHO a good point to start.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
rauliruegas

Showing 50 responses by rauliruegas

rauliruegas OP
13,129 posts
 
Dear friends: I bought too an Audio Technica 331LP ( P-mount. ) that I can't find almost no information.

Any one of you have it? heard it?, I appreciate any help/advise/experiences about.

Thank you in advance.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
rauliruegas OP
13,129 posts
 
Dear friends: More fine opportunities:

http://cgi.ebay.com/GRACE-F-9L-CARTRIDGE-/360293609520?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0#ht_3104wt_1137

these ones accept the AT200 stylus replacement:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Audio-Technica-Headshell-AT-15sa-Phono-Cartridge-/320581455739?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0#ht_500wt_1154

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Audio-Technica-AT15SS-Turntable-Cartridge-/270626803320?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0#ht_500wt_1154

Good luck.

Regards and enjoy the music,
raul.
rauliruegas OP
13,129 posts
 
Dear Downunder: Yes, Nagaoka is a fine performer.

Btw and just curious:
almost every audio item you add to your system you listed in your " virtual system " like the A-90 cartridge.

You own several MM/MI cartridges that like the Nagaoka you really like it you even are a proudly and privigeled ( I assume this because what you posted on its quality performance more than once. )owner of the great Technics MM cartridge but you don't put in your " virtual system " items list, no single MM/MI cartridge there!

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
rauliruegas OP
13,129 posts
 
Dear firends: A fine B&O " touch " ( top of the line in its times. ):

http://cgi.ebay.com/Bang-Olufsen-MMC-20CL-phono-cartridge-BOXED-/220660560110?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item336064f0ee#ht_915wt_1137

this one too:

http://cgi.ebay.com/AKG-P8ES-stereo-phono-cartridge-NEW-OLD-STOCK-/220660405048?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3360629338#ht_886wt_1137

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
rauliruegas OP
13,129 posts
 
Dear Lewm: Like you almost all audiophiles are totally unaware of the bearing friction " figure " in their tonearms and this fact is mainly because the tonearm manufacturers almost no one disclose that information.

In the other side we audiophiles really does not care about because we never had reasons to be aware and almost never no one speaks about. I really was unaware of its importance either.

I take real " conscience " on this pivot tonearm bearing friction important subject when I decided to design a pivot tonearm and latter on because these MM/MI alternative.

I think that we all make for " done " that the tonearm bearing friction is no single issue with our cartridge/tonearm quality performance and today I know that's not totally true.

Anyway, an additional analog audio subject to think about.

regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
rauliruegas OP
13,129 posts
 
Dear Waynefia: I think and I already posted that one critical factor/subject on tonearm choice for MM/MI cartridges is to look for a low pivot bearing friction more than low effective mass ( 08-18-10 post in this same page, just below Lewm and Birdliver posts. ).

Here is something that I read on the AKG P8 cartridge description:

++++++ " It should be matched with only the finest tonearms having very low friction in the pivot bearings below 15mg in any direction. * ++++++

The AT tonearms have very low bearing friction, lower than 10mg as the Technics ones that are around 5-7mg.
I name these tonearms because all them are medium to high effective mass but the AT 1100. All them performs really good with any MM/MI cartridge I tested on it.

In the other side there are tonearms like the Dynavector 505/507 where the bearing friction is higher: around 40-50mg, that's still low against the VTF but high on what cartridges needs.

A low bearing friction is almost good to help a better groove tracking.

So, don't go only because the tonearm effective mass that IMHO it is not the critical issue but many other subjects around where the bearing friction play an important role.

Regards and enjoy the music,
raul.
rauliruegas OP
13,129 posts
 
Dear friends: More fine options.

This is very hard to find:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ADC-Astrion-cartridge-/130424597252?pt=Turntable_Parts_Accessories#ht_500wt_1154

anoter AKGs:

http://cgi.ebay.de/Phono-Cartridge-Tonabnehmer-AKG-P8ES-vd-Hul-II-/230516187328?pt=Plattenspielerzubeh%C3%B6r#ht_968wt_1137

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
rauliruegas OP
13,129 posts
 
Dear Lewm: I'm refering on both vertical/horizontal-lateral. Both are important for groove tracking.

These are the 507 specs:

Specifications
Type Bi-Axis inertia controlled Dynamic and Eddy Current Damping Dynamic Balance type tone arm
Overall length 306mm. With head shell: max 326 mm
Effective length 241mm (i.e. tonearm pivot point to cartridge stylus point)
Overhang 15mm
Offset angle 21.5 degree
Height 59mm lifts up to 92mm
Height adjustment range 39mm-72mm at sub arm center
Depth 36mm without connecting cable
Optimum cartridge weight 15-35 grams, including headshell
Horizontal tracking angle error -1.1 degree - +2.2 degree , 0 degree at inner band of record, 2.2 degree at outside
Tracking force adjustment range 0-38 grams by 0.2 grams step
Sensitivity Horizontal:less than 50 mgrams, Vertical:less than 40 mgrams
Net weight 1,380 grams
Output connection 5P connector
Headshell connection EIA standards 4 Pin connector
Accessary
low resistance (0.046 ohms/m, 54pF/m) high quality arm cable,
milled aluminium headshell weight 15.4 grams.
mounting template for the arm
overhang guage for the headshell

in the 505 both are 50mgrs.

Regards and enjoy the music,
raul.
rauliruegas OP
13,129 posts
 
Dear Downunder: Thak's for your kindness.

Maybe you already know, my thoughts on that subject comes because other persons that I know they own ( by personal recommendation. ) vintage MM/MI cartridges does not list in their virtual systems. I'm talking on M.Lavigne, Doug, Vetterone(S.Doobins. ), etc, etc. Even and like you Halcro does not list his beloved Empire.

I know that some of them ( like you ) maybe have no time ( camera ) or is not important to do it or even they don't want to disclose these " humble gems " because maybe that could goes against their " personal image ".

Anyway, only my thoughts and every one makes what he likes, no problem about.

I'm proud of every single audio link in my audio system.

regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
rauliruegas OP
13,129 posts
 
Dear Wayne: Tonearm bearing friction is important factor/target in any tonearm design and IMHO has main influence during playback in either cartridge compliance.

I posted several times that whatever cartridge we have ( regarding compliance ) we can try in the tonearm we own whatever the tonearm effective mass and heard/hear it.

I tested several cartridges/tonearms with out cares about effective mass/compliance and till today I can think was ok for me.

I'm not saying that it is not important the tonearm/cartridge resonance frequency because it is but I think that we are worried to much on it and maybe we have to put our " thinking/effort " on opther important tonearm/cartridge subjects.

I posted that the resonance frequency tonearm/cartridge " figure " is a point to start but not the one that decide my final " road ".

In the other side, if we analize the tonearm/resonance calculation formula/equation we can see that we need the manufacturer Tonearm Effective Mass value:

we take it from the tonearm manual specs and here emerge an important question? ( at least important to me ):

in what place/position the tonearm manufacturer " put " the tonearm counterweight to calculate the tonearm effective mass?

the tonearm counterweight is the heaviest weight that counts in the effective mass calculations. If the counterweight was/is at the very " front "/nearest to the tonearm pivot ( where the counterweight effective mass is at minimum. ) we have a tonearm effective mass that is IMHO not real because in no cartridge/tonearm set up the counterweight is in that position.

If we move the counterweight at a more " real " position the tonearm effective mass is different and not for 0.3grs but maybe for 2-4grs due to the high counterweight weight.

Those differences in grs. in the real tonearm effective mass makes a difference in the resonance frequency calculations that could goes over 2hz-3hz.

So we really don't have a precise/accurate tonearm/cartridge resonance frequency value.
To this fact we have to think/add that the cartridge/tonearm " react " not in a static way ( tonearm/cartridge in rest. No playback. ) but when are in playback through a recording.

Maybe I'm wrong but this is what I think about and my advise is that you make what I'm make and made about in the last 10+ years: forget that tonearm/cartridge resonance " figure " because TODAY we can't be sure if the value that comes out from those calculations is TRUE and if really has and makes a " difference " for the better:
how can we hear/heard or discern ( and be sure. ) a quality performance change due in specific to that tonearm/cartridge resonance " figure? .

I'm aware that the subject has its self importance level and that's why we in our tonearm self design are on the research to choose a tonearm effective mass that can put " calm " in my brain it does not matters the cartridge characteristics.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

rauliruegas OP
13,129 posts
 
Dear Halcro: Yes, I was aware of the Garrot. I think all those MM/MI cartridges you own are really great.

Btw, I'm sure that all of us right now are already waiting for your Empire's reviews!!

regards and enjoy the msuic,
Raul.
rauliruegas OP
13,129 posts
 
Dear Lewm: In those times IMHO more than " brag " about was at least to things: first a " fierce " competence in the cartridge and tonearm market and second maybe those designers not only take care about but thinks that the tonearm bearing friction was an important subject and something to disclose for the customers were aware about.

I'm sure that all tonearm today designers take care about, the question is: why choose not disclose it?

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
rauliruegas OP
13,129 posts
 
Dear Timeltel: +++++ " a tonearm not suited to the cartridge (by reason of mass or bearing friction) will cause the cantilever to move outside of its optimal position. This results in the cartridge percieving a false signal generated by inertial/momentum.... " ++++++

sorry my ignorance but: which or where are the " foundations " that could confirm these statements?

antiskating, stylus near its life end, wrong set up, bad tonearm damping, even just a bad tracker cartridge or a combination of these factors could shows what you are telling too.

IMHO there are a lot of things that are not very clear on the subject.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
rauliruegas OP
13,129 posts
 
Dear Timeltel: Thank's for your time.

My question comes because there are several reasons why what you point out can happen.

All your " references " not only makes sense but that's what in theory can/could happen and that's why the importance on tonearm bearing friction, tonearm damping build material, tonearm build execution quality, TT mat and obviously tonearm mass.

+++++ " producing a
rising bass characteristic with distortion and mistracking, and whenever the resonance is below
10 Hz, disc defects such as warps and ripples will throw the arm into gross oscillation, thus producing
severe variations in tracking pressure and dramatically reducing trackability. This
results in distortion and a lack of detail. " +++++

how can we have a direct " relationship " between this statements and tonearm/cartridge subject " today "?

I have no doubt that in 1975 and before the " normal " tonearms of those times were build with maybe lesser care about because the market " demands " maybe does not ask for " more ".

At the end part of the 70's Grace, Audio Technica, Denon and Technics ( between others ) take the " flag " to " solve " many of those tonearm/cartridge playback related problems.

It is precisely at the end of the 70?s that appear the almost very first " high end " tonearms like Audio Technica: 1100, 1503 and 1010, Denon: DA-308, 309 and 401, Grace: G-1040 and 940, Exel ES-1000, Technics EPA-500, Stax UA-7, Lustre GST-801 ( dynamically balanced. ), SAEC's or ADC and Infinity ones.

All these tonearms has something in common: very low bearing friction that tonearms designs before 1975 did not and not only this but almost all those after 1975 tonearm designs comes with a high care on self tonearm damping on its build blend materials used.

All these " new " tonearm designers understand the huge importance of that J. Briton studies ( you posted ) along others one made for them to " solve " or put at minimum those problems.
We can find from those times that Technics not only goes to 5mgrs figure in tonearm bearing friction but even design a dynamically damping tonearm mechanism ( EPA-100 ) that help about.

I own or owned almost all these tonearms along some today designs where through my experiences in almost none I detected problems that I discern comes because of tonearm effective mass mistmatch.

The build quality and care in those tonearm designs are really high and put at minimum distortions that happen and fortunatelly some of us can't detect even in a high resolution system.

You can read my post on the Audio magazyne review of the Ortofon MC2000 where the resonance frequency was as low as 5hz ( Technics EPA-250 tonearm ) and through all the review time the reviewer can't detect any single trouble because of that.

I posted too that with the Ortofon M20E Super and the tonearm where I test it the resonance frequency was as low as 4.3hz with a great quality performance.

I read somewhere that early ADC cartridge designs ( very high compliance ) was on purpose designed for 6hz resonance frequency.

I'm not diminished the tonearm/cartridge resonance frequency subject or any thing you posted because even if some of us can't heard/detect " distortions ": " things " are happening.

In our tonearm design and mat design ( and now in our cartridge design too. We already start with. ) our main target is to " disappear " those kind of distortions and I can tell you that we IMHO already had/have success.

Anyway, an adding important issue to this dialog is that we point out and be aware of all those different factors ( between others. ) that have influence in the quality performance of any phono cartridge.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
rauliruegas OP
13,129 posts
 
My mistake: ADC/Infinity were there way before 175.

Raul.
rauliruegas OP
13,129 posts
 
Dear friends: Time for a very especial and hard to find in NOS Grace cartridge:

http://cgi.ebay.com/GRACE-F-9E-ll-cartridge-/290469962395?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43a15be29b#ht_500wt_1154

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
rauliruegas OP
13,129 posts
 
Dear Dgob: No I'm not interested ( yet ) in the Point 4.

I'm now trying to give a second opportunity to the ADC 25 ( that suppose was the better ADC/Pritchard design but the XLM II.

I have on hand the ADC 25 ( red and blue dot stylus. ), the 26 and the 27: all the that ADC line!
I bought them at low pricew but nothing like your $ 5.00 Point 4!!!

This same designer designed the GE cartridges when he worked at GE. After that he found ADC and designed MM cartridges: 1, 2 and 3 denomination models.

Now that you own that Point 4 maybe could be a good idea to look for a Sonus Dimension 5 Calibrated that was the lattest Pritchard design and compare against his earliest ones.

I own the Dimension 5 that I already rated high and better than any ADC I heard it.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
rauliruegas OP
13,129 posts
 
Dear Dgob: +++++ " the Point 4 and Point 4E. As you probably know, they share the same bodies and are interchangeable. " ++++

yes I know that. Sorry to insist: which one are you testing now: the Point 4 or the E version?

Thank you in advance.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
rauliruegas OP
13,129 posts
 
Dear Dgob: What you are hearing in the Point 4 is really an achievement because it is not only a very old cartridge but with a spheric stylus not the E version and for $5.00 the only thing you can ask is that: sounds/makes(noise)!

Btw, I want to hear all the ADC 20's family cartridges and I need some time to do it, certainly I will share my experiences about when I be ready for .

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
rauliruegas OP
13,129 posts
 
Dear Jtgofish: +++++ " many MC cartridges sound refined and clear but lack vibrancy and musicality by comparison. " +++++

this is one of the main MM/MI cartridges characteristic and one of the advantages against the LOMC alternative.

As you noted that charecteristic that is exactly what almost all the people that like the MM/MI alternative noted too and that's why IMHO likes to them, including me.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
rauliruegas OP
13,129 posts
 
Dear friends: I think this one was a Pritchard design when he worked at GE ( before ADC. ), maybe one of you could have some interest on this cartridge design:

http://cgi.ebay.com/GE-RPX-046-VR-Cartridge-w-RPJ-003-003-Stylus-MIB-/260658201356?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cb070830c#ht_500wt_1154

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
rauliruegas OP
13,129 posts
 
Dear friends: Very good NOS B&O opportunity:

http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Box-Bang-Olufsen-MMC2-Phono-Cartridge-Superb-/180555891783?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a09f84447#ht_772wt_1137

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
rauliruegas OP
13,129 posts
 
Dear franklin: I don't have the exactly weight but my thought is that is near 7grs. I don't have it but you could find out a balance-machine ( digital. ) to make sure.

I think that you can mount and test with some of the headshells you own and through listening tests decide which is the best match for it.

Btw, congratulations this Empire is a great winner.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
rauliruegas OP
13,129 posts
 
Dear Timeltel: I'm not even start the ADC listening. Right now I'm in the " last " voicing of our self tonearm design.

regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
rauliruegas OP
13,129 posts
 
Dear Dean_man: Today was a great day for great cartridge opportunities that you closed with that great Empire, thank you.

Yes, the MF 200 is worth even more $$$$

regards and enjoy the music,
raul.
rauliruegas OP
13,129 posts
 
Dear Stanwal: I can't say that a high compliance cartridge design is a flaw design, I can say is a different design.

Compliance is not only important for look at the tonearm we can use but is important on the " aptitude " to improve tracking in a cartridge and to lower the tracking distortion.

Nothing is perfect, always are trade-offs but an important subject in all this cartridge compliance and effective mass tonearm relationship is that almost all these very high compliance cartridges performs and gives you a very high quality performance even with severe mistmatch in the tonearm/cartridge resonance frequency figure.

My Sonus Dimension 5 has 50cu and performs just splendid in my AT 1503 tonearm that is over 20grs on effective mass.

The real " subject " is: how could be? why things are happening in this way when in theory is supposed can't happen in that way?

I don't have the right and precise answer and I don't know any one that already has the answer.

There are a lot of posts in this thread and other threads speaking on the same and the only answer I have is that the quality performance relationship between tonearm/cartridge is not only beyond that resonance frequency calculation but there are so many factors that have influence in the cartridge/tonearm behavior that for we can have an answer we need to create a mathematic model that take in count each one of those factors and its own and overall relationships and then " move/change " ( the values. ) one by one each of those " factors " and see what the model tell us till we understand what is happening.Not an easy task for any one.

In the mid-time what can we do? other than enjoy those gems.

regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
rauliruegas OP
13,129 posts
 
Stanwal it is so complex that even to make the factors list is a very hard task.

Raul.
rauliruegas OP
13,129 posts
 
Dear Lharasim: I don't have on hand a Decca cartridge. Thuchan has it, I hope he can share his experiences about.

I'm sure other people own Decca's maybe some of them could help.

Regards and enjoy the music,
raul.
rauliruegas OP
13,129 posts
 
Dear Timeltel: AT/24/25 and the TK10 ML 2/3 has different stylus shape. Instead the ellipthical one in the AT's the Signet's comes with line contact type.

I own both and you can see it through microscope and certainly you can hear it.

Regards and eenjoy the music,
raul.
rauliruegas OP
13,129 posts
 
Dear Downunder: I owned the 25 and now the 24 and I understand has the same stylus: difference is only that the 24 is a stand alone model. The 23/22 are similar two between each other but a little different with the 24/25 that I understand is more " refined ".

IMHO you need to buy the 24 at stereoneedles.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
rauliruegas OP
13,129 posts
 
Dear Downunder: Yes the stylus replacement is the same. Don't worry buy the AT24 stylus replacement.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
rauliruegas OP
13,129 posts
 
Sorry a mistake. Here it is:

http://electronics.shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=sonus&_sacat=64620&_odkw=&_osacat=64620&bkBtn=&_trksid=p3286.m270.l1313

Raul.
rauliruegas OP
13,129 posts
 
Dear Audiofeil: I don't see any apparent trouble with that due that the cartridges belongs to the same line, you can try and decide.

Regrads and enjoy the music,
raul.
rauliruegas OP
13,129 posts
 
Dear Timeltel: IMHO that the body shape in the 22/24 and the Signet's 9/10 can/could accept the same kind of stylus shape does not means performs the same, even if the motor is the same that it is not ( AT with the Signet ) there still are electrical ( inductance/resistance. ) differences between them ( including 22 and 24. )

Anyway, my statement is only to be aware about.

Regards and enjoy the music,
raul.
rauliruegas OP
13,129 posts
 
and remember that depends too on the load impedance you are using on that cartridge.

Raul.
rauliruegas OP
13,129 posts
 
Dgob: Agree the 100ZE/x is a fine performer. Do you already heard the Empire 4000D3?

Regards and enjoy the music,
raul.
rauliruegas OP
13,129 posts
 
Dear friends: More alternatives,

http://cgi.ebay.de/Tonabnehmer-Audio-Technica-AT-20-SLa-/280558240523?pt=Plattenspielerzubeh%C3%B6r&hash=item415293030b#ht_500wt_1154

this low mass tonearm:

http://cgi.ebay.de/AUDIO-TECHNICA-AT1100-AT-1100-AT-1100-Tonarm-tonearm-/330470679942?pt=Plattenspielerzubeh%C3%B6r&hash=item4cf1966586#ht_603wt_1137

another one:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Audio-Technica-AT-1100-Tonearm-and-Cable-Boxed-/120616742931?pt=Turntable_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1c15517013#ht_5016wt_1137

and other!:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Audio-technica-arm-and-counterweight-original-box-/180558614393?pt=Turntable_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2a0a21cf79#ht_698wt_1137

this one top of the line an almost impossible to find out!!!:

http://cgi.ebay.de/AUDIO-TECHNICA-AT-ML180occ-Tonabnehmer-cartridge-ML-180-/330470687397?pt=Plattenspielerzubeh%C3%B6r&hash=item4cf19682a5#ht_581wt_1137

and this Empire is good too:

http://cgi.ebay.de/EMPIRE-1000-GT-NEU-NOS-org-verpackt-/300463774633?pt=Plattenspielerzubeh%C3%B6r&hash=item45f5095ba9#ht_911wt_1137

in this one you can use the 20SS stylus replacement:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/rare-AUDIO-TECHNICA-AT15XE-cartridge-dual-magnet-box-/180556797141?pt=Turntable_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2a0a0614d5#ht_500wt_1154

WOW!!!.

Regards and enjoy the music,

Raul.
rauliruegas OP
13,129 posts
 
Dear Ecir38: At the end of the page #14 you can find a good alternative for the caps you are looking for:

http://www.percyaudio.com/Catalog.pdf

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
rauliruegas OP
13,129 posts
 
Dear T_bone: In each one system IMHO the best way to go is through your " ears "/listening.

Regards and enjoy the music,
raul.
rauliruegas OP
13,129 posts
 
Dear Downubder: Good that you " discover " another top top performer. Seems to me that it is time to mount my AT24 after all!.

Btw, do you already own the 4000DIII or the AT-20SS?, both IMHO are in the same league with the Technics and the 24/25.

Regards and enjoy the music,
raul.
rauliruegas OP
13,129 posts
 
Dear Downunder: +++ " I thought most AT cart's were on the lean side. The AT25 while not warm or full, is a just a fraction laid back which suits my listening style and enables longer term listening.

BTW, have you heard the AT34?. " +++++

well the 20SS is not exactly lean and if you can find it just buy it, you will be really happy with the 20SS, like you are with the 100C or the 25.

I owned the AT34 ( but this is a MC one. ) that if I remember comes in integrated headshell fashion. In its times was the top of the line and is a good cartridge but I'm still prefer the 20SS or other MM AT ones over the 34 but you could be the best judge about in your system.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
rauliruegas OP
13,129 posts
 
Dear friends: Who was the lucky one with the Technics?, congratulations for that.

regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
rauliruegas OP
13,129 posts
 
Dear Dgob: Yes, I auditioned the AT 24 ( that I owned several years ago and had in good praise then. ) very brief. I know is very good performer ( along that was the top of the line in that moment. ) and now after read Downunder post I will listen it more " seriously " and report on it.

As a fact I have several very good performers I know where I need to confirm its high quality but I need time and the day has only 24 hours.

Btw, why to buy the 205MK3 when we own the 100C?: well a phono cartridge is the analog source and till today I don't know yet two sources/cartridges that performs the same ( even from the same brand. ) always are differences. In top models I can say " nice " differences, this nice differences is what makes me want to hear/have the 205 along the 100C along the 20SS along the 4000D3 along the AT24 along the TK10ML2 along the AKG P100LE, along, along, along......

I like those differences that are so " nice " that almost I don't have in deep preference for any of them.

To own all these top cartridges give me the opportunity to enjoy those " differences " .

I know that some persons could think that if we own one of the top cartridges out there is enough and I respect this way of thinking but I prefer to own and have the opportunity to enjoy those " differences ".

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
rauliruegas OP
13,129 posts
 
Dear friends: This Technics is only second to the EPC 100, worth to have it even if you own the EPC100:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Technics-UPC-U205C-mk3-MM-Cartridge-Tonearm-/320591278515?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4aa4bab1b3#ht_3234wt_1137

and if you find it you can improve it to MK4 status ( latest one. ) with a stylus replacement.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
rauliruegas OP
13,129 posts
 
Dear friends: I just finish my " brief " tests on the ADC 25 along the Audio Technica 331LP.

The ADC 25 ( 1.0grs on VTF and almost even VTA/SRA. ) main characteristic is that is very alive with good bass response and even that at the other frequency extreme is " raising " a little on the bright side I can say its tonal balance is good. It needs at least 15 hours of play to be near target and you need patience on the VTA/SRA set up.
The cartridge track very well at 1.0grs but if you don't use recordings at very high recorded velocity or with big wraps/waves it tracks good at 0.8grs.
Due to the cartridge age the suspension and cartridge compliance is no any more on specs where suppose could track very well at 0.5grs. Not big deal at 1.0grs things are good.

IMHO the most remarkable subject with the ADC 25 is that a 1964 cartridge design, this is 46 years ago!, can perform so well.

The AT331LP is a P-mount type design and good performer too. Both cartridges I think can/could stand at the Ortofon M20 FL Super quality performance level with the 331 a " hair " over the 25.

Btw, more remarkable is the P-mount cartridge design " facilities ": right now that I tested the 331LP and with out unmount the headshell I can test any other P-mount type cartridge with out make almost any adjustement!!!
I mount directly the P-76 and the Azden and check for overall set up ( with out hearing/play to them. ) and the three cartridges " measure " the same: VTF, overhang and VTA and even azymuth.

So, this P-mount characteristic is a true " standard " that all manufacturers follow in precise way, good!

I will hear the Andante and the Azden again before the Audio Technica AT-24.

Regards and enjoy the music,
raul.
rauliruegas OP
13,129 posts
 
Dear friends: I'm hearing again the Andante P-76 and after the first 5 hours of playback ( to sttle down again. ) it is performing really good.

What impress me more of its quality performance is its especial " drive " that has at around 50hz to 100hz and at 1k to 3k. This makes the cartridge performance almost addictive. Its tonal balance is good one an almost neutral even with that " drive " characteristic that help for the performance ( if the recording ask for ) sometimes can be " explosive " an exciting. No, IMHO it is not a cartridge that dissapear from the system " equation " but is very good.

I remember that some persons can't achieve top quality performance with the P-76 and after heard the cartridge I can say that only if the cartridge is out of " specs/target " ( due to its age. ) or really with wrong set up I can't see how any one could not have a good P-76 audio experiences and I mean good experiences.

I still recommended it.

Regards and enjoy the music,
raul.
rauliruegas OP
13,129 posts
 
Dear Timeltel: What do you know about the Pioneer PC-400 or any one of you?, thank you in advance.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
rauliruegas OP
13,129 posts
 
Dear Franklin: As other persons already stated: just mount the cartridge in either of the tonearms you own, give the cartridge at least 20 hours before you make any serious listening.

After those 20 hours start your " listening " test along the fine tunning cartridge set up, check carefully in that tonearm and after that change the cartridge to the other tonearm and listen then you can decide which tonearm is the best match and remember that in the Technics tonearm you can swap different hedashells that could help to find out a better match.

So you have a long " road to home " with a lot of fun in between.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
rauliruegas OP
13,129 posts
 
Dear Travbrow:Thank you to share that experience: Adelcom is not very trusty on that regard. The TK10 was a latter design than the TK9 and AT24 and maybe to that fact comes the differences.

Right now I'm " entilted " with the Andante P-76 that I'm really enjoying and after this one I try the Azden and then I will give all the time to my AT-24. I will report on time.

Btw, one drawback that I detect in the P-76 is that extended as it is on high frequency I think that lose a little definition in this frequency range.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
rauliruegas OP
13,129 posts
 
Dear Montepilot: Nice to read that both cartridges does not lay down in anyway. Both are great performers and IMHO ones of the best cartridge designs ever.

regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
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