Who needs a MM cartridge type when we have MC?


Dear friends: who really needs an MM type phono cartridge?, well I will try to share/explain with you what are my experiences about and I hope too that many of you could enrich the topic/subject with your own experiences.

For some years ( in this forum ) and time to time I posted that the MM type cartridge quality sound is better than we know or that we think and like four months ago I start a thread about: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1173550723&openusid&zzRauliruegas&4&5#Rauliruegas where we analyse some MM type cartridges.

Well, in the last 10-12 months I buy something like 30+ different MM type phono cartridges ( you can read in my virtual system which ones. ) and I’m still doing it. The purpose of this fact ( “ buy it “ ) is for one way to confirm or not if really those MM type cartridges are good for us ( music lovers ) and at the same time learn about MM vs MC cartridges, as a fact I learn many things other than MM/MC cartridge subject.

If we take a look to the Agon analog members at least 90% of them use ( only ) MC phono cartridges, if we take a look to the “ professional reviewers “ ( TAS, Stereophile, Positive Feedback, Enjoy the Music, etc, etc, ) 95% ( at least ) of them use only MC cartridges ( well I know that for example: REG and NG of TAS and RJR of Stereophile use only MM type cartridges!!!!!!!! ) , if we take a look to the phono cartridge manufacturers more than 90% of them build/design for MC cartridges and if you speak with audio dealers almost all will tell you that the MC cartridges is the way to go.

So, who are wrong/right, the few ( like me ) that speak that the MM type is a very good alternative or the “ whole “ cartridge industry that think and support the MC cartridge only valid alternative?

IMHO I think that both groups are not totally wrong/right and that the subject is not who is wrong/right but that the subject is : KNOW-HOW or NON KNOW-HOW about.

Many years ago when I was introduced to the “ high end “ the cartridges were almost MM type ones: Shure, Stanton, Pickering, Empire, etc, etc. In those time I remember that one dealer told me that if I really want to be nearest to the music I have to buy the Empire 4000 D ( they say for 4-channel reproduction as well. ) and this was truly my first encounter with a “ high end cartridge “, I buy the 4000D I for 70.00 dls ( I can’t pay 150.00 for the D III. ), btw the specs of these Empire cartridges were impressive even today, look: frequency response: 5-50,000Hz, channel separation: 35db, tracking force range: 0.25grs to 1.25grs!!!!!!!!, just impressive, but there are some cartridges which frequency response goes to 100,000Hz!!!!!!!!!!

I start to learn about and I follow to buying other MM type cartridges ( in those times I never imagine nothing about MC cartridges: I don’t imagine of its existence!!!. ) like AKG, Micro Acoustics, ADC, B&O, Audio Technica, Sonus, etc, etc.

Years latter the same dealer told me about the MC marvelous cartridges and he introduce me to the Denon-103 following with the 103-D and the Fulton High performance, so I start to buy and hear MC cartridges. I start to read audio magazines about either cartridge type: MM and Mc ones.

I have to make changes in my audio system ( because of the low output of the MC cartridges and because I was learning how to improve the performance of my audio system ) and I follow what the reviewers/audio dealers “ speak “ about, I was un-experienced !!!!!!!, I was learning ( well I’m yet. ).

I can tell you many good/bad histories about but I don’t want that the thread was/is boring for you, so please let me tell you what I learn and where I’m standing today about:

over the years I invested thousands of dollars on several top “ high end “ MC cartridges, from the Sumiko Celebration passing for Lyras, Koetsu, Van denHul, to Allaerts ones ( just name it and I can tell that I own or owned. ), what I already invest on MC cartridges represent almost 70-80% price of my audio system.

Suddenly I stop buying MC cartridges and decide to start again with some of the MM type cartridges that I already own and what I heard motivate me to start the search for more of those “ hidden jewels “ that are ( here and now ) the MM phono cartridges and learn why are so good and how to obtain its best quality sound reproduction ( as a fact I learn many things other than MM cartridge about. ).

I don’t start this “ finding “ like a contest between MC and MM type cartridges.
The MC cartridges are as good as we already know and this is not the subject here, the subject is about MM type quality performance and how achieve the best with those cartridges.

First than all I try to identify and understand the most important characteristics ( and what they “ means “. ) of the MM type cartridges ( something that in part I already have it because our phonolinepreamp design needs. ) and its differences with the MC ones.

Well, first than all is that are high output cartridges, very high compliance ones ( 50cu is not rare. ), low or very low tracking force ones, likes 47kOhms and up, susceptible to some capacitance changes, user stylus replacement, sometimes we can use a different replacement stylus making an improvement with out the necessity to buy the next top model in the cartridge line , low and very low weight cartridges, almost all of them are build of plastic material with aluminum cantilever and with eliptical or “ old “ line contact stylus ( shibata ) ( here we don’t find: Jade/Coral/Titanium/etc, bodies or sophisticated build material cantilevers and sophisticated stylus shape. ), very very… what I say? Extremely low prices from 40.00 to 300.00 dls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, well one of my cartridges I buy it for 8.99 dls ( one month ago ): WOW!!!!!!, so any one of you can/could have/buy ten to twenty MM cartridges for the price of one of the MC cartridge you own today and the good notice is that is a chance that those 10-20 MM type cartridges even the quality performance of your MC cartridge or beat it.

Other characteristics is that the builders show how proud they were/are on its MM type cartridges design, almost all those cartridges comes with a first rate box, comes with charts/diagrams of its frequency response and cartridge channel separation ( where they tell us which test recording use it, with which VTF, at which temperature, etc, etc. ), comes with a very wide explanation of the why’s and how’s of its design and the usual explanation to mount the cartridge along with a very wide list of specifications ( that were the envy of any of today MC ones where sometimes we really don’t know nothing about. ), comes with a set of screws/nuts, comes with a stylus brush and even with stylus cleaning fluid!!!!!!!!!, my GOD. Well, there are cartridges like the Supex SM 100MK2 that comes with two different stylus!!!! One with spherical and one with elliptical/shibata shape and dear friends all those in the same low low price!!!!!!!!!!!

Almost all the cartridges I own you can find it through Ebay and Agon and through cartridge dealers and don’t worry if you loose/broke the stylus cartridge or you find the cartridge but with out stylus, you always can/could find the stylus replacement, no problem about there are some stylus and cartridge sources.

When I’m talking about MM type cartridges I’m refer to different types: moving magnet, moving iron, moving flux, electret, variable reluctance, induced magnet, etc, etc. ( here is not the place to explain the differences on all those MM type cartridges. Maybe on other future thread. ).

I made all my very long ( time consuming ) cartridge tests using four different TT’s: Acoustic Signature Analog One MK2, Micro Seiki RX-5000, Luxman PD 310 and Technics SP-10 MK2, I use only removable headshell S and J shape tonearms with 15mm on overhang, I use different material build/ shape design /weight headshells. I test each cartridge in at least three different tonearms and some times in 3-4 different headshells till I find the “ right “ match where the cartridge perform the best, no I’m not saying that I already finish or that I already find the “ perfect “ match: cartridge/headshell/tonearm but I think I’m near that ideal target.

Through my testing experience I learn/ confirm that trying to find the right tonearm/headshell for any cartridge is well worth the effort and more important that be changing the TT. When I switch from a TT to another different one the changes on the quality cartridge performance were/are minimal in comparison to a change in the tonearm/headshell, this fact was consistent with any of those cartridges including MC ones.

So after the Phonolinepreamplifier IMHO the tonearm/headshell match for any cartridge is the more important subject, it is so important and complex that in the same tonearm ( with the same headshell wires ) but with different headshell ( even when the headshell weight were the same ) shape or build material headshell the quality cartridge performance can/could be way different.

All those experiences told me that chances are that the cartridge that you own ( MC or MM ) is not performing at its best because chances are that the tonearm you own is not the best match for that cartridge!!!!!!, so imagine what do you can/could hear when your cartridge is or will be on the right tonearm???!!!!!!!!, IMHO there are ( till today ) no single ( any type at any price ) perfect universal tonearm. IMHO there is no “ the best tonearm “, what exist or could exist is a “ best tonearm match for “ that “ cartridge “, but that’s all. Of course that are “ lucky “ tonearms that are very good match for more than one cartridge but don’t for every single cartridge.

I posted several times that I’m not a tonearm collector, that I own all those tonearms to have alternatives for my cartridges and with removable headshells my 15 tonearms are really like 100+ tonearms : a very wide options/alternatives for almost any cartridge!!!!!!

You can find several of these MM type cartridges new brand or NOS like: Ortofon, Nagaoka, Audio Technica, Astatic, B&O, Rega, Empire, Sonus Reson,Goldring,Clearaudio, Grado, Shelter, Garrot, etc. and all of them second hand in very good operational condition. As a fact I buy two and even three cartridges of the same model in some of the cartridges ( so right now I have some samples that I think I don’t use any more. ) to prevent that one of them arrive in non operational condition but I’m glad to say that all them arrive in very fine conditions. I buy one or two of the cartridges with no stylus or with the stylus out of work but I don’t have any trouble because I could find the stylus replacement on different sources and in some case the original new replacement.

All these buy/find cartridges was very time consuming and we have to have a lot of patience and a little lucky to obtain what we are looking for but I can asure you that is worth of it.

Ok, I think it is time to share my performance cartridge findings:

first we have to have a Phonolinepreamplifier with a very good MM phono stage ( at least at the same level that the MC stage. ). I’m lucky because my Phonolinepreamplifier has two independent phono stages, one for the MM and one for MC: both were designed for the specifics needs of each cartridge type, MM or MC that have different needs.

we need a decent TT and decent tonearm.

we have to load the MM cartridges not at 47K but at 100K ( at least 75K not less. ).

I find that using 47K ( a standard manufacture recommendation ) prevent to obtain the best quality performance, 100K make the difference. I try this with all those MM type cartridges and in all of them I achieve the best performance with 100K load impedance.

I find too that using the manufacturer capacitance advise not always is for the better, till “ the end of the day “ I find that between 100-150pf ( total capacitance including cable capacitance. ) all the cartridges performs at its best.

I start to change the load impedance on MM cartridges like a synonymous that what many of us made with MC cartridges where we try with different load impedance values, latter I read on the Empire 4000 DIII that the precise load impedance must be 100kOhms and in a white paper of some Grace F9 tests the used impedance value was 100kOhms, the same that I read on other operational MM cartridge manual and my ears tell/told me that 100kOhms is “ the value “.

Before I go on I want to remember you that several of those MM type cartridges ( almost all ) were build more than 30+ years ago!!!!!!!! and today performs at the same top quality level than today MC/MM top quality cartridges!!!!!, any brand at any price and in some ways beat it.

I use 4-5 recordings that I know very well and that give me the right answers to know that any cartridge is performing at its best or near it. Many times what I heard through those recordings were fine: everything were on target however the music don’t come “ alive “ don’t “ tell me “ nothing, I was not feeling the emotion that the music can communicate. In those cartridge cases I have to try it in other tonearm and/or with a different headshell till the “ feelings comes “ and only when this was achieved I then was satisfied.

All the tests were made with a volume level ( SPL ) where the recording “ shines “ and comes alive like in a live event. Sometimes changing the volume level by 1-1.5 db fixed everything.

Of course that the people that in a regular manner attend to hear/heard live music it will be more easy to know when something is right or wrong.

Well, Raul go on!!: one characteristic on the MM cartridges set-up was that almost all them likes to ride with a positive ( little/small ) VTA only the Grace Ruby and F9E and Sonus Gold Blue likes a negative VTA , on the other hand with the Nagaoka MP 50 Super and the Ortofon’s I use a flat VTA.

Regarding the VTF I use the manufacturer advise and sometimes 0.1+grs.
Of course that I made fine tuning through moderate changes in the Azymuth and for anti-skate I use between half/third VTF value.

I use different material build headshells: aluminum, composite aluminum, magnesium, composite magnesium, ceramic, wood and non magnetic stainless steel, these cartridges comes from Audio Technica, Denon, SAEC, Technics, Fidelity Research, Belldream, Grace, Nagaoka, Koetsu, Dynavector and Audiocraft.
All of them but the wood made ( the wood does not likes to any cartridge. ) very good job . It is here where a cartridge could seems good or very good depending of the headshell where is mounted and the tonearm.
Example, I have hard time with some of those cartridge like the Audio Technica AT 20SS where its performance was on the bright sound that sometimes was harsh till I find that the ceramic headshell was/is the right match now this cartridge perform beautiful, something similar happen with the Nagaoka ( Jeweltone in Japan ), Shelter , Grace, Garrot , AKG and B&O but when were mounted in the right headshell/tonearm all them performs great.

Other things that you have to know: I use two different cooper headshell wires, both very neutral and with similar “ sound “ and I use three different phono cables, all three very neutral too with some differences on the sound performance but nothing that “ makes the difference “ on the quality sound of any of my cartridges, either MM or MC, btw I know extremely well those phono cables: Analysis Plus, Harmonic Technologies and Kimber Kable ( all three the silver models. ), finally and don’t less important is that those phono cables were wired in balanced way to take advantage of my Phonolinepreamp fully balanced design.

What do you note the first time you put your MM cartridge on the record?, well a total absence of noise/hum or the like that you have through your MC cartridges ( and that is not a cartridge problem but a Phonolinepreamp problem due to the low output of the MC cartridges. ), a dead silent black ( beautiful ) soundstage where appear the MUSIC performance, this experience alone is worth it.

The second and maybe the most important MM cartridge characteristic is that you hear/heard the MUSIC flow/run extremely “ easy “ with no distracting sound distortions/artifacts ( I can’t explain exactly this very important subject but it is wonderful ) even you can hear/heard “ sounds/notes “ that you never before heard it and you even don’t know exist on the recording: what a experience!!!!!!!!!!!

IMHO I think that the MUSIC run so easily through a MM cartridge due ( between other facts ) to its very high compliance characteristic on almost any MM cartridge.

This very high compliance permit ( between other things like be less sensitive to out-center hole records. ) to these cartridges stay always in contact with the groove and never loose that groove contact not even on the grooves that were recorded at very high velocity, something that a low/medium cartridge compliance can’t achieve, due to this low/medium compliance characteristic the MC cartridges loose ( time to time and depending of the recorded velocity ) groove contact ( minute extremely minute loose contact, but exist. ) and the quality sound performance suffer about and we can hear it, the same pass with the MC cartridges when are playing the inner grooves on a record instead the very high compliance MM cartridges because has better tracking drive perform better than the MC ones at inner record grooves and here too we can hear it.

Btw, some Agoners ask very worried ( on more than one Agon thread ) that its cartridge can’t track ( clean ) the cannons on the 1812 Telarc recording and usually the answers that different people posted were something like this: “””” don’t worry about other than that Telarc recording no other commercial recording comes recorded at that so high velocity, if you don’t have trouble with other of your LP’s then stay calm. “””””

Well, this standard answer have some “ sense “ but the people ( like me ) that already has/have the experience to hear/heard a MM or MC ( like the Ortofon MC 2000 or the Denon DS1, high compliance Mc cartridges. ) cartridge that pass easily the 1812 Telarc test can tell us that those cartridges make a huge difference in the quality sound reproduction of any “ normal “ recording, so it is more important that what we think to have a better cartridge tracking groove drive!!!!

There are many facts around the MM cartridge subject but till we try it in the right set-up it will be ( for some people ) difficult to understand “ those beauties “. Something that I admire on the MM cartridges is how ( almost all of them ) they handle the frequency extremes: the low bass with the right pitch/heft/tight/vivid with no colorations of the kind “ organic !!” that many non know-how people speak about, the highs neutral/open/transparent/airy believable like the live music, these frequency extremes handle make that the MUSIC flow in our minds to wake up our feelings/emotions that at “ the end of the day “ is all what a music lover is looking for.
These not means that these cartridges don’t shine on the midrange because they do too and they have very good soundstage but here is more system/room dependent.

Well we have a very good alternative on the ( very low price ) MM type cartridges to achieve that music target and I’m not saying that you change your MC cartridge for a MM one: NO, what I’m trying to tell you is that it is worth to have ( as many you can buy/find ) the MM type cartridges along your MC ones

I want to tell you that I can live happy with any of those MM cartridges and I’m not saying with this that all of them perform at the same quality level NO!! what I’m saying is that all of them are very good performers, all of them approach you nearest to the music.

If you ask me which one is the best I can tell you that this will be a very hard “ call “ an almost impossible to decide, I think that I can make a difference between the very good ones and the stellar ones where IMHO the next cartridges belongs to this group:

Audio Technica ATML 170 and 180 OCC, Grado The Amber Tribute, Grace Ruby, Garrot P77, Nagaoka MP-50 Super, B&O MMC2 and MMC20CL, AKG P8ES SuperNova, Reson Reca ,Astatic MF-100 and Stanton LZS 981.

There are other ones that are really near this group: ADC Astrion, Supex MF-100 MK2, Micro Acoustics MA630/830, Empire 750 LTD and 600LAC, Sonus Dimension 5, Astatic MF-200 and 300 and the Acutex 320III.

The other ones are very good too but less refined ones.
I try too ( owned or borrowed for a friend ) the Shure IV and VMR, Music maker 2-3 and Clearaudio Virtuoso/Maestro, from these I could recommended only the Clearaudios the Shure’s and Music Maker are almost mediocre ones performers.
I forgot I try to the B&O Soundsmith versions, well this cartridges are good but are different from the original B&O ( that I prefer. ) due that the Sounsmith ones use ruby cantilevers instead the original B&O sapphire ones that for what I tested sounds more natural and less hi-fi like the ruby ones.

What I learn other that the importance on the quality sound reproduction through MM type cartridges?, well that unfortunately the advance in the design looking for a better quality cartridge performers advance almost nothing either on MM and MC cartridges.

Yes, today we have different/advanced body cartridge materials, different cantilever build materials, different stylus shape/profile, different, different,,,,different, but the quality sound reproduction is almost the same with cartridges build 30+ years ago and this is a fact. The same occur with TT’s and tonearms. Is sad to speak in this way but it is what we have today. Please, I’m not saying that some cartridges designs don’t grow up because they did it, example: Koetsu they today Koetsu’s are better performers that the old ones but against other cartridges the Koetsu ones don’t advance and many old and today cartridges MM/MC beat them easily.

Where I think the audio industry grow-up for the better are in electronic audio items ( like the Phonolinepreamps ), speakers and room treatment, but this is only my HO.

I know that there are many things that I forgot and many other things that we have to think about but what you can read here is IMHO a good point to start.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
rauliruegas

Showing 50 responses by rauliruegas

Dear Lewm: +++++ " ut also this leaves the Empire 1000 as the finest sounding cartridge that Raul has ever heard in his system. (It's the only one that got a rank of 9, far as I can recall.) " +++++

well not exactly, other that the Sonus Dimension 5 I has more than 15 cartridges that I have to test again and that due its high quality performance potential I think could belong to that 9 range level and beyond it ( 10 or 10+. ), that's why I leave the 10 range empty. We will see.

regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Dear friends: I posted that if I push very hard ( " perfeccionist " ) I would like that my Empire 1000 ZE/X could has a little more SPL over 10-12Khz.

I was running it with no adding capacitance but after reading the Davev post ( thank you for that. ) where the High Fidelity's 1974 test report states:

" The curves shown here, incidentially, were made with a 300pf input capacitance, shunted by the normal 47,000 resistor. Those who read our report on the V15 Type 11 Improved will remember that a similar capacitance was required before that cartridge would perform up to it's full potential. Without the capacitance the 1000 ZE/X exhibited some 20KHZ resonance and a slight dip in response below that resonance " ++++++

so I add 150pf on capacitance and the already cartridge high quality performance improve in that frequency range I'm looking for!!!!!!!!!!!!

this experience tell me that I must be more carefully on a carrtridge set up with the capacitance value. This Empire is more sensitive to capacitance changes than other carrtridges like the M20FL.
In this case was worth to try other capacitance value that this time was easy due to the Davev post.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Dear Davev: The effective mass in my set up is: 22grs.

The last recording I heard last night was the Firebird ( Dorati- Mercury ) and the 1000 ZE/X cartridge performance was impressive, the bass not only with the precise quantity but with a very high quality. The cartridge bass quality performance is IMHO first rate.

Due to " age " I think there are/could be differences in sample cartridges.

Btw, yes with MM/MI's we have to " play " with the capacitance value along the impedance value.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Dear Timeltel: As you know the MM/MI's alternative and its set up is really " new " for us, we are not " expert " yet and due to this fact we have to be testing/trying different " roads " to achieve better cartridge performance.

In the case of the Empire 1000 ZE/X works to me a very very high VTA/SRA set up ( almost 19mm at the tonearm pivot. ), it sounds crazy this set up but works really fine.

Why don't you try this un-orthodox set up? what can you lose?

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Dear Timeltel: Good to know that the changes in your 20FL are working. Btw, in theory silver is a better conductor than gold.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Dear Axelwahl: Always is good that other person confirm that something is really " working " like in this case that high very high VTA/SRA on the Empire 1000 ZE/X.

Yes it is higher not only than with the 20FL needs but till today the higher on any of the cartridges I tested.

+++++ " This Empire sound pretty nice with lower VTA --- but REALLY comes into its own with the much higher setting. " ++++

this statement IMHO is the key to achieve better quality performance with several cartridges.
Many of us maybe are hearing very good performances with our cartridges and we don't take in count/aware that maybe if we go higher on the VTA/SRA set up we could achieve even better quality performance, we have to try harder because like with this Empire it is worth to do it!!.

As Lewm posted: ++++ It seems these inexpensive MM/MI cartridges are even more finicky than the megabuck MC ones. ++++

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Dear friends: Any one of you own Philips cartridges as the 412 or 420 or other?.
Yes!: can you share your experiences?, thank you.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
Dear Pryso: +++++ " So my question is this, can we get a generalized expectation for MM/MI performance by VTA adjustment without also considering the LP manufacturer, EQ, and weight (thickness) of the disc(s) used for our listening evaluation? " +++++

all those factors play a role on what we are hearing but normally we have control only on VTA/SRA changes and is through these VTSA/SRA changes and ears how we make the cartridge set up.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Dear Waynefia: IMHO you can try those Ortofon MM/MI cartridges with your Jelco 250, it works fine.
Please do it and then comeback to us and share your experiences on those cartridges.

regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Dear Lewm: I can't say for sure if really exist a difference between both models and maybe ( if no one tell us. ) the only way to find out is two own both stylus on hand.

If I was you and before try to buy the ZE/X NOS replacement I will wait to have the ZE cartridge, test it and put a picture in this thread to we can find a build differences.
In the other side and due to its very high quality performance I think that an invest of 166.00 is a must to do it.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Dear Rrog: Sooner or latter some one could " discovery " the MM/MI great analog source alternative over the time.

Lucky all us that we did, be part of it and can enjoy it.

Btw, which cartridges do you own or are your prefered ones?

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Dear Franklyn: The At150 is a good/nice cartridge and I think the latest in the Audio Technica catalog, I like a lot AT cartridges ( I own 7-8 cartridges. ) but this time IMHO you can do better with the Ortofon ( I think the Azden is sold out. ).

Now, you can't go wrong with the 150 if you want it.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Dear Jazzgene: +++++ " I am not an audiophile and to me, it is all about my ears. " +++++

well, many of us in this forum are music lovers and audiophiles that like you " it is all about my ears ".

IMHO our ears along our knowledge with live music is the best " tool " to judge an audio system/recording quality performance, obviously that the quality of the audio systems different items are very important too: like your Grado Statement.

Have a good trip, success and happy return to NYC.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Dear Axelwhal: +++++ " Yet both of these sound more "natural" in my system then the best MCs I heard " +++++

one and again this MM/MI characteristic follow appearing/repeat over many posts on the subject and between other things maybe this characteristic is the main difference with the LOMC alternative.

Over and over making tests and comparisons between both alternatives my " ears " tell me that the MM/MI ones present/show an audio performance with lower distortions level that any of the LOMC that I heard and this lower distortions help to make that " natural " sound.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Dear Timeltel: Yes it is!!!!

Btw, as you know the cartridge comes pre-mounted in its P-mount adaptor: do/did you check that the adaptor/cartridge screw was tight? because in mine comes a little loose so I have to tigth it.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Dear Royj: Thank you for that important pictures on the Empire, are really educational.

Btw, mine is like smaller one.

Axelwahl which yours?

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Dear Davev: +++++ " and that probably means that more people are reading this thread than are posting. " +++++

agree, there are several persons that decided not to post and share their experiences.

Problem for some of them ( even the experienced ones. ) is that several of the cartridges tested in this thread shows its best with some specific and especial set up characteristics that if all those people are unaware of that maybe they can't achieve the " best " performance on the cartridge and can/could have a wrong " perception " on each cartridge real quality performance.

I know for sure that some " heavy " experienced persons that are advocate to LOMC cartridges ( like A. Porter, M. Lavigne, Vetterone, Dougdeacon, etc, etc. ) already buy vintage MM/MI cartridges but if they don't read/follow the thread or don't ask about cartridge set up they could lose/miss the " glory " of the MM/MI alternative making/building in their minds a " false " concept on this great and unexpected analog source alternative.

In the other side and if we take a look on different threads we can see that are many persons ( more than we think ) that are advocate to MM/MI cartridges for many years and that are using current/today MM/MI sample cartridges ( not vintage.), Johnyb53 is one of them, he always recomended the AT 150MLX that is the one he use it but there are many people like this guy.

I hope that in a near future Johnyb53 and others come and share their " fresh " experiences, I'm sure that when this happen it will enrich our audio learning curve.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Dear Timeltel: +++++ " and publish your book? For the coffee table, plenty of hi-res. pictures, please. " +++++

not bad idea but that is very far away from now: there are many many cartridges for test and many experiences from people like you that we have to " collect " in the future.

It is almost an endless " job ". Two days ago I was lucky enough to find on ebay a NOS Azden YM-P50VL, this was the top of the line in Azden cartridges and suppose a great one, we will see.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Dear Downunder: Yes, its frequency response is dead flat on both channels: outstanding!!!!!!!.
As I say in the other thread: " the best ".

My sample comes with out that stylus cleaner. I think that is better that you use your normal stylus cleaner.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Dear friends: Your opportunity:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Empire-1000-ZE-X-turntable-cartridge_W0QQitemZ120526821015QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item1c0ff55697#ht_500wt_749

Rgerads and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Dear Dean_man: Very oportune information, thank you.

It seems to me that maybe the very " old " ZE/X cartridges comes with the bigger cantilever but we can't be sure, it suppose that mine stylus box designation was not the shorter/thin cantilever because it does not has the ERD on the model.

Maybe Roy can help us and Lewm when he receive his sample..

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Dear Siniy123: Yes Empire made the YM-P50VL for Azden but it is not the same 875, it use the same motor/body to specific Azden cartridge characteristics/sound signature: so is " different ".

Empire made cartridges not only to Azden by other companies like Marantz that looks like the Empire 2000 series.

Today, for example, Goldring make cartridges for Reson and Audio Note, you can see the threee different cartridges than looks the same but sounds different.

I will report on the Azden when I put my hands on it.

Yes, Adelcom.net has the Azden line and still have very interesting cartridges along stylus replacements.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Dear Siniy123: I let you know where the Azden was made when I receive it.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Dear Downunder: Normally as you go higher on capacitance as the cartridge goes brighther.

Btw, I will try to test the 1080 next week, there are other owners that already ask about. I know there are other 1080 owners but I doon't " see " it here.

Regards and enjoy the nmusic,
Raul.
Dear Dgarretson: You are lucky to own the Astatic MF-100. I have similar experiences with like you, great performaer.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Dear Ct0517: I agree with you On Avalon ( greta one ) and obviously " Seeds of Love "!

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Dear Lewm/Downunder: What I posted is part of what I experienced in this MM/MI alternative times and not with all cartridges and certainly not as a general rule.

The capacitance subject in stand alone way means almost nothing, the meaning of C start to make 2 meaning " when we take in count other related parameters like: cartridge internal resistance, internal inductance, cartridge loading impedance, cable capacitance and phono stage capacitance.
So it is a more complex subject that only C.

The specific relationship between those parameters values are main part of the cartridge frequency response behaivor. If we change the value on one or two of those parameters the result/performance change.
Other factor that we have to take in count is that a change in C does not alter one specific frequency ( stand alone frequency: 15Khz or 4Khz. ) but a frequency range that could alter not only the high frequencies but part of the midrange too and obviously the harmonics response.

Adding to these we have to take in count all the cartridge frequency changes due to the cartridge/tonearm behaivor, cable performance, phono stage performance and line stage performance and IMHO it is after the cartridge signal pass to all these " links " when we can judge about.

I take seriously the whole theory about but unfortunately that theory in many ways is out of target to predict the final " result ".
This is the same like the theory behind the tonearm/cartridge resonance frequency where it can tell us or predict the final " result ".

Downunder, IMHO M. Fremer is wrong with that comment because those 200pf plus the cable capacitance gives you around the 400pf target.

Now, normally a cartridge designer ( especially on its top models. ) makes a cartridge voicing where he take in count all those parameters and when they decided that 450pf is the " number " it is because in their voicing that was " the number ".

Btw, your example/link on the MP-11 is IMHO not a very good example against not only the Nagaoka line ( the MP-11 was at the lower side on MP Nagaoka series. ) but against almost all the cartridges we have on hand and that we are testing and in the other side the system that own that reviewer was not IMHO a good one against many of our systems.

There are a lot of information on the net with different approaches and with different contradictory final " results ", I read somewhere what Mr. Hagherman write about ( something like this. ): " to know the real performance on MM/MI cartridges you have to load those cartridges with 100-150pf, no more. "

Which one of all those theoretical different opinions are right, maybe none because none take in count all the parameters involve in the final result, our ears still are our best judge where the results are system dependent.

I have several experiences ( that I already posted ) where less C are better but this is only my opinion.

IMHO we have to follow in the learning of what " surround " the MM/MI alternative.

Far away of who are right is that we can analize together the subject ( any one of any kind. ) and at he end each one of us take his own decision/attitude about.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Dear friends: Please re-read what Timeltel posted about the Pionner Electronics findings ( thank you for that Timeltel. ).

I re-read twice and for that quote IMHO what we want is that peak resonance at high frequencies ( that every cartridge has. ) stay beyond the audible frequency range and we can get it with higher cartridge load impedance and lowering capacitance.

Anyway, as I posted: in my ears I trust!

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Dear Lewm: +++++ " To all, I say when you fall in love with your latest cartridge, listen to it for several weeks and then go back to your previous analog love affair. You may be surprised to find that the old girl had virtues you did not previously appreciate. " +++++

I'm sure is true but in my case and due that I have to test all those cartridges it is almost imposible to me to take " weeks " with each 80+ cartridges.

My " first impression " on the cartridges I test and report certainly could not take it 100% as an " absolute " true but IMHO is a good step to start, I think that some way or the other that " first impression " is around at 85%-90% of the true.

regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Dear Downunder: I just try again the Empire 1080LT and I just can't have a conclusion.

The cartridge makes everything fine, I don't find any serious drawback, it makes " things " very good and could seems that the cartridge belongs to 6-7 range level but there is a cartridge characteristic that I don't like it: it has an uninnvolving performance with no " emotion "/soul, its performance is very good but mechanical ( not analytical. ) more like a good LOMC than a MM/MI.

Maybe my sample needs more playing time ( that I don't have it. ) because is a NOS unit.

Of course that me or any other person can get this kind of cartridge opinion when we make comparisons with other great cartridges, if this was the only cartridge on hand we can say that is a great one but it does not seems to me today.
I try in three different tonearms with little differences but that uninvolving quality performance characteristic stay there.

Regards and enjoy the music,}
Raul.
Dear friends: Take a look to this very old cartridge chart specs that I just find today, it is curious but the loading figures/values are the same I'm using:

http://usera.imagecave.com/afishe/DSC_5175.JPG

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Dear Dowunder: I own the Elac 896 cartridge that suppose is a top of the 795 you own.

I bought it more than a year ago with a NOS stylus replacement. Its look is a little " primitive " but the quality performance for what I remember is " surprising " good. I have to test again to be sure about, mine tracks at 1.25grs. but yours has a higher compliance than the 896.

Elac was7is a very " solid " cartridge builder with many many years of experience on the subject so it is not a real surprise that these cartridges performas in high way.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Dear Pryso: That was not my intention, I don't explain very well.

As a fact I don't like that kind of cartridge quality performance due to that uninvolving characteristic. I states that maybe that is because it is a NOS unit and needs more playing time ( Downunder confirm this. ).

What I want to tell was that if the cartridge does not show that characteristic then will be on the 6-7 range but right now I can't give it any ranking till the cartridge change through more playing time.

As I posted the cartridge makes everything good with no serious drawbacks ( other than the uninvolving characteristic. ) but in today status I don't want to follow hearing it when I have to many other cartridges to test.

If I can I will let the cartridge playing in one of my TT and see what happen in 10 days.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Dear Pryso: Downunder posted on that cartridge and its very good performance and other persons like Jaspert ask about and that's why I decide to test the 1080 where I give a normal time of playing like any other MM/MI cartridge I did.

In the other side Axelwhal posted something not very positive on this cartridge from his Malasyan source.

Till that moment I was unaware if the cartridge needs a longer playing time ( unusual/anormal. ).

Before Dowunder posted that it needs more time I posted that maybe it needs more time.

Now I let clear that my intention was not to make a cartridge rating but a way to say that: the cartridge made things good but not fullfill my targets and I still think in this way.

Right now I would like to ask Axelwhal if the similar findings by his Malasyan source was with enough time on the cartridge, say: 30-50 hours.

I understand your claim but due that this cartridge is a vintage one where could be differences in between cartridge samples and that the cartridge needs ( according to Downunder and friends. ) more playing time at least give me /us something additional to take care about for a final rating and as you posted:

+++++ " The only benefit I can see would be to warn others not to expect much until a given model is broken in. " +++++

I could add: not a given model but this one. So not everything were loosed.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Dear Axelwahl: I agree with you, that were the kind of experiences I had with cartridges.

Even that I want to give the " doubt benefit " to my 1080LT if I find the time to do it. I never spect this cartridge performance for this top rated cartridge so I want to be sure about.

In the mid-time I want to test the Azden YM-P50VL that I just receive it, this cartridge was build by Empire to Azden design characteristics, we will see.

regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Dear Axelwahl: You are right the Nagaoka too.

I think is important to try it. We all know that we can " tame/color " a cartridge performance with different tightness grade/range between the headshell/cartridge mount screws. I like always tight with fierce those headshell/cartridge mount screws, sounds to me less colored.

Well if that is happening between the relationship headshell/cartridge I think that the more intimate cartridge/stylus relationship can have an influence in the cartridge quality performance.

Yes I was thinking on those cartridges ( many ) where I have two-three samples and that several of you own it. The Ortofon M20's could be a good choice.

I would like to know what any one of you that own these Ortofon's recommended as the glue ( please name more than one typebecause I can't find everything exist on USA. ) and how to " implement " in such way that can't damage the stylus plastic body or the cartridge metal/plastic body. The other side is to do it in non permanent way if this is posible.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Dear Pryso: Thank's for the advise.
I wish more of you can give and advise on this glue subject.

Regrads and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Dear Lewm: Pardon me, which difference makes the removable headshell design on the stylus guard subject with non removable headshell designs?

I agree that a stylus guard always is a safe way to handle cartridges but even that the no stylus guard improvement is small one I think that is worth to do it with any cartridge, of course that we have to take care about and agree that there is a higher risk. My cartridge experiences told me that no stylus guard is the way to go but like you there are different opinions about.

In my system set up ( three TT's and ten tonearms ) is really dificult to " work " not only changing cartridges but even when you want to hear/play with either cartridge set up, everything is to close each other and " accidents " happen. My Colibri goes four times to Van denHul for new cantilever/stylus because an " accident ", so I know what you mean but I think that all this dependen on each one cares with the cartridge handle/work.

Now, some cartridges like the Ortofon 20's are very easy to take out the stylus guard and return to its original place but there are other like some Empire's where is not so easy to take out the stylus guard and very difficult trying to put on place again. As a fact I think that it is here where we have to be extremely cares about.

Now the ones of us that are accustom to work with LOMC cartridges, that normally comes with out a fixed stylus guard, handling MM/MI cartridges with out stylus guard is not big deal.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Dear Williamdc: Normally I always remove any stylus guard, as you point out contributes to resonance issues and that is not good for the cartridge quality performance.

Regards and enjoy the music,
>Raul.
Dear Lewm: Now I see what you mean. Well time to time appear on ebay boxes especially made to have cartridges ( 3-5 ), mounted on its headshells, in " rest " and are very safe not only to keep the carrtridges but to go " around " with the box if you want to show something to an audio friend.

These kind of especial " boxes " were made by FR, AT, Denon, etc.

I own like 7-8 of these boxes , many individual plastic boxes and from Rubermmaid I buy plastic boxes that comes inside with individual separate sections.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Dear Timeltel: Now that you name it four of my cartridge/headshell cases comes from 2juki.

Btw, don't miss those ebay Azden cartridges, highly recommended.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Dear Timeltel: Good for you, I'm sure you will be glad/happy with the Azden quality performance.

As you know Glanz was former Astatic cartridge models, the one you saw looks identical to the Astatic MF series but I can't say for sure which model in the Astatic line even that Glanz sample. The Astatic MF-100 was the top of the line and very good performer that I rated at 7 level range. Anyway the Azden you bought is a better cartridge.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Dear friends: I posted that the Azden was made by Empire but I find this information on the net that seems to me was not Empire but Azden by it self whom build that Azden cartridges:

++++ " Azden
This Japanese company was until recently one of the biggest OEM supplier of cartridges. " +++++ ( from Audio-tools. )

maybe Azden made some Empire cartridges to specific Empire design specifications. So this is the other way around, the main builder seems Azden.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Dear Dgob: ++++++ " to be the best moving magnet cartridge in a comparitive test conducted some while ago by recording engineers. " +++++

could you share with us the link to read about?, thank you in advance.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Dear Sgunther: Really nothing. Normally the phono stages comes with 47K as a standard on MM stage but things are that some of us find out that some cartridges loaded at 100K performs better.

You can ask to SimAudio how can you change the impedance to 100K maybe changing the input resistor, I don't know for sure: you have to ask.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Dear friends: Different cartridges " paint " the music in different Colors.

The Azden has the capacity to Color the music with the right tone, with the right lights and shadows and with the right color intensity that the recording is asking for through the whole recording/music composition.

The recording is a paint in white and black and the cartridge ( well the whole audio system. ) the painter: from this " point of view " the Azden fullfill its Color on each single " space " in that paint where other cartridges/painters not only are less refined painters but leave " spaces " with no Color.

Through the Azden I can't find ( at least in my system ) any single area where I want to ask for more or where I would like to hear something different, it fullfill my music audio targets.

Could be other cartridges that can beat the Azden?, IMHO certainly could be but till today I don't hear other cartridge that beats the Azden performance.
I'm still waiting for my AKG P-100LE and the Technics EPC-P100CMK4 returning from VdH and I have to test the AT- ML180-OCC, Technics EPC-205CMK4 and some one else that could be good contenders to the Azden.
Next in my list is the Grado Amber that is very promise on that very high quality Azden performance.

I have to say that the Azden people made an exemplar job voicing this cartridge because IMHO is here, in the voicing, where mainly resides the cartridge performance other than the skills and knowledge to build/manufacture a cartridge.

I was reading some information about Azden and this company is not an unknow company but a company with very solid experience in audio and electronics for many years and with very solid and respectable name in Japan and other parts of the world:

http://www.azdencorp.com/new/pages.php?pageid=23

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Dear Dgob: +++++ " the cartridge that was felt to be the best moving magnet cartridge in a comparitive test conducted some while ago by recording engineers. " +++++

I ask for the link because it is important/interesting to read/see the whole environment where the cartridges tests was made.

We want to know: who are and what " represent/means " those recording engineers ? which was the room/audio system on subject? was a controlled overall test? which were the cartridges under test? which tonearms/headshells were used to achieve the best on each cartridge under test? which track recordings were used on the test?, etc, etc.

I hope some one else can put some real light on this.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.