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Who needs a MM cartridge type when we have MC?

Dear friends: who really needs an MM type phono cartridge?, well I will try to share/explain with you what are my experiences about and I hope too that many of you could enrich the topic/subject with your own experiences.

For some years ( in this forum ) and time to time I posted that the MM type cartridge quality sound is better than we know or that we think and like four months ago I start a thread about: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1173550723&openusid&zzRauliruegas&4&5#Rauliruegas where we analyse some MM type cartridges.

Well, in the last 10-12 months I buy something like 30+ different MM type phono cartridges ( you can read in my virtual system which ones. ) and I’m still doing it. The purpose of this fact ( “ buy it “ ) is for one way to confirm or not if really those MM type cartridges are good for us ( music lovers ) and at the same time learn about MM vs MC cartridges, as a fact I learn many things other than MM/MC cartridge subject.

If we take a look to the Agon analog members at least 90% of them use ( only ) MC phono cartridges, if we take a look to the “ professional reviewers “ ( TAS, Stereophile, Positive Feedback, Enjoy the Music, etc, etc, ) 95% ( at least ) of them use only MC cartridges ( well I know that for example: REG and NG of TAS and RJR of Stereophile use only MM type cartridges!!!!!!!! ) , if we take a look to the phono cartridge manufacturers more than 90% of them build/design for MC cartridges and if you speak with audio dealers almost all will tell you that the MC cartridges is the way to go.

So, who are wrong/right, the few ( like me ) that speak that the MM type is a very good alternative or the “ whole “ cartridge industry that think and support the MC cartridge only valid alternative?

IMHO I think that both groups are not totally wrong/right and that the subject is not who is wrong/right but that the subject is : KNOW-HOW or NON KNOW-HOW about.

Many years ago when I was introduced to the “ high end “ the cartridges were almost MM type ones: Shure, Stanton, Pickering, Empire, etc, etc. In those time I remember that one dealer told me that if I really want to be nearest to the music I have to buy the Empire 4000 D ( they say for 4-channel reproduction as well. ) and this was truly my first encounter with a “ high end cartridge “, I buy the 4000D I for 70.00 dls ( I can’t pay 150.00 for the D III. ), btw the specs of these Empire cartridges were impressive even today, look: frequency response: 5-50,000Hz, channel separation: 35db, tracking force range: 0.25grs to 1.25grs!!!!!!!!, just impressive, but there are some cartridges which frequency response goes to 100,000Hz!!!!!!!!!!

I start to learn about and I follow to buying other MM type cartridges ( in those times I never imagine nothing about MC cartridges: I don’t imagine of its existence!!!. ) like AKG, Micro Acoustics, ADC, B&O, Audio Technica, Sonus, etc, etc.

Years latter the same dealer told me about the MC marvelous cartridges and he introduce me to the Denon-103 following with the 103-D and the Fulton High performance, so I start to buy and hear MC cartridges. I start to read audio magazines about either cartridge type: MM and Mc ones.

I have to make changes in my audio system ( because of the low output of the MC cartridges and because I was learning how to improve the performance of my audio system ) and I follow what the reviewers/audio dealers “ speak “ about, I was un-experienced !!!!!!!, I was learning ( well I’m yet. ).

I can tell you many good/bad histories about but I don’t want that the thread was/is boring for you, so please let me tell you what I learn and where I’m standing today about:

over the years I invested thousands of dollars on several top “ high end “ MC cartridges, from the Sumiko Celebration passing for Lyras, Koetsu, Van denHul, to Allaerts ones ( just name it and I can tell that I own or owned. ), what I already invest on MC cartridges represent almost 70-80% price of my audio system.

Suddenly I stop buying MC cartridges and decide to start again with some of the MM type cartridges that I already own and what I heard motivate me to start the search for more of those “ hidden jewels “ that are ( here and now ) the MM phono cartridges and learn why are so good and how to obtain its best quality sound reproduction ( as a fact I learn many things other than MM cartridge about. ).

I don’t start this “ finding “ like a contest between MC and MM type cartridges.
The MC cartridges are as good as we already know and this is not the subject here, the subject is about MM type quality performance and how achieve the best with those cartridges.

First than all I try to identify and understand the most important characteristics ( and what they “ means “. ) of the MM type cartridges ( something that in part I already have it because our phonolinepreamp design needs. ) and its differences with the MC ones.

Well, first than all is that are high output cartridges, very high compliance ones ( 50cu is not rare. ), low or very low tracking force ones, likes 47kOhms and up, susceptible to some capacitance changes, user stylus replacement, sometimes we can use a different replacement stylus making an improvement with out the necessity to buy the next top model in the cartridge line , low and very low weight cartridges, almost all of them are build of plastic material with aluminum cantilever and with eliptical or “ old “ line contact stylus ( shibata ) ( here we don’t find: Jade/Coral/Titanium/etc, bodies or sophisticated build material cantilevers and sophisticated stylus shape. ), very very… what I say? Extremely low prices from 40.00 to 300.00 dls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, well one of my cartridges I buy it for 8.99 dls ( one month ago ): WOW!!!!!!, so any one of you can/could have/buy ten to twenty MM cartridges for the price of one of the MC cartridge you own today and the good notice is that is a chance that those 10-20 MM type cartridges even the quality performance of your MC cartridge or beat it.

Other characteristics is that the builders show how proud they were/are on its MM type cartridges design, almost all those cartridges comes with a first rate box, comes with charts/diagrams of its frequency response and cartridge channel separation ( where they tell us which test recording use it, with which VTF, at which temperature, etc, etc. ), comes with a very wide explanation of the why’s and how’s of its design and the usual explanation to mount the cartridge along with a very wide list of specifications ( that were the envy of any of today MC ones where sometimes we really don’t know nothing about. ), comes with a set of screws/nuts, comes with a stylus brush and even with stylus cleaning fluid!!!!!!!!!, my GOD. Well, there are cartridges like the Supex SM 100MK2 that comes with two different stylus!!!! One with spherical and one with elliptical/shibata shape and dear friends all those in the same low low price!!!!!!!!!!!

Almost all the cartridges I own you can find it through Ebay and Agon and through cartridge dealers and don’t worry if you loose/broke the stylus cartridge or you find the cartridge but with out stylus, you always can/could find the stylus replacement, no problem about there are some stylus and cartridge sources.

When I’m talking about MM type cartridges I’m refer to different types: moving magnet, moving iron, moving flux, electret, variable reluctance, induced magnet, etc, etc. ( here is not the place to explain the differences on all those MM type cartridges. Maybe on other future thread. ).

I made all my very long ( time consuming ) cartridge tests using four different TT’s: Acoustic Signature Analog One MK2, Micro Seiki RX-5000, Luxman PD 310 and Technics SP-10 MK2, I use only removable headshell S and J shape tonearms with 15mm on overhang, I use different material build/ shape design /weight headshells. I test each cartridge in at least three different tonearms and some times in 3-4 different headshells till I find the “ right “ match where the cartridge perform the best, no I’m not saying that I already finish or that I already find the “ perfect “ match: cartridge/headshell/tonearm but I think I’m near that ideal target.

Through my testing experience I learn/ confirm that trying to find the right tonearm/headshell for any cartridge is well worth the effort and more important that be changing the TT. When I switch from a TT to another different one the changes on the quality cartridge performance were/are minimal in comparison to a change in the tonearm/headshell, this fact was consistent with any of those cartridges including MC ones.

So after the Phonolinepreamplifier IMHO the tonearm/headshell match for any cartridge is the more important subject, it is so important and complex that in the same tonearm ( with the same headshell wires ) but with different headshell ( even when the headshell weight were the same ) shape or build material headshell the quality cartridge performance can/could be way different.

All those experiences told me that chances are that the cartridge that you own ( MC or MM ) is not performing at its best because chances are that the tonearm you own is not the best match for that cartridge!!!!!!, so imagine what do you can/could hear when your cartridge is or will be on the right tonearm???!!!!!!!!, IMHO there are ( till today ) no single ( any type at any price ) perfect universal tonearm. IMHO there is no “ the best tonearm “, what exist or could exist is a “ best tonearm match for “ that “ cartridge “, but that’s all. Of course that are “ lucky “ tonearms that are very good match for more than one cartridge but don’t for every single cartridge.

I posted several times that I’m not a tonearm collector, that I own all those tonearms to have alternatives for my cartridges and with removable headshells my 15 tonearms are really like 100+ tonearms : a very wide options/alternatives for almost any cartridge!!!!!!

You can find several of these MM type cartridges new brand or NOS like: Ortofon, Nagaoka, Audio Technica, Astatic, B&O, Rega, Empire, Sonus Reson,Goldring,Clearaudio, Grado, Shelter, Garrot, etc. and all of them second hand in very good operational condition. As a fact I buy two and even three cartridges of the same model in some of the cartridges ( so right now I have some samples that I think I don’t use any more. ) to prevent that one of them arrive in non operational condition but I’m glad to say that all them arrive in very fine conditions. I buy one or two of the cartridges with no stylus or with the stylus out of work but I don’t have any trouble because I could find the stylus replacement on different sources and in some case the original new replacement.

All these buy/find cartridges was very time consuming and we have to have a lot of patience and a little lucky to obtain what we are looking for but I can asure you that is worth of it.

Ok, I think it is time to share my performance cartridge findings:

first we have to have a Phonolinepreamplifier with a very good MM phono stage ( at least at the same level that the MC stage. ). I’m lucky because my Phonolinepreamplifier has two independent phono stages, one for the MM and one for MC: both were designed for the specifics needs of each cartridge type, MM or MC that have different needs.

we need a decent TT and decent tonearm.

we have to load the MM cartridges not at 47K but at 100K ( at least 75K not less. ).

I find that using 47K ( a standard manufacture recommendation ) prevent to obtain the best quality performance, 100K make the difference. I try this with all those MM type cartridges and in all of them I achieve the best performance with 100K load impedance.

I find too that using the manufacturer capacitance advise not always is for the better, till “ the end of the day “ I find that between 100-150pf ( total capacitance including cable capacitance. ) all the cartridges performs at its best.

I start to change the load impedance on MM cartridges like a synonymous that what many of us made with MC cartridges where we try with different load impedance values, latter I read on the Empire 4000 DIII that the precise load impedance must be 100kOhms and in a white paper of some Grace F9 tests the used impedance value was 100kOhms, the same that I read on other operational MM cartridge manual and my ears tell/told me that 100kOhms is “ the value “.

Before I go on I want to remember you that several of those MM type cartridges ( almost all ) were build more than 30+ years ago!!!!!!!! and today performs at the same top quality level than today MC/MM top quality cartridges!!!!!, any brand at any price and in some ways beat it.

I use 4-5 recordings that I know very well and that give me the right answers to know that any cartridge is performing at its best or near it. Many times what I heard through those recordings were fine: everything were on target however the music don’t come “ alive “ don’t “ tell me “ nothing, I was not feeling the emotion that the music can communicate. In those cartridge cases I have to try it in other tonearm and/or with a different headshell till the “ feelings comes “ and only when this was achieved I then was satisfied.

All the tests were made with a volume level ( SPL ) where the recording “ shines “ and comes alive like in a live event. Sometimes changing the volume level by 1-1.5 db fixed everything.

Of course that the people that in a regular manner attend to hear/heard live music it will be more easy to know when something is right or wrong.

Well, Raul go on!!: one characteristic on the MM cartridges set-up was that almost all them likes to ride with a positive ( little/small ) VTA only the Grace Ruby and F9E and Sonus Gold Blue likes a negative VTA , on the other hand with the Nagaoka MP 50 Super and the Ortofon’s I use a flat VTA.

Regarding the VTF I use the manufacturer advise and sometimes 0.1+grs.
Of course that I made fine tuning through moderate changes in the Azymuth and for anti-skate I use between half/third VTF value.

I use different material build headshells: aluminum, composite aluminum, magnesium, composite magnesium, ceramic, wood and non magnetic stainless steel, these cartridges comes from Audio Technica, Denon, SAEC, Technics, Fidelity Research, Belldream, Grace, Nagaoka, Koetsu, Dynavector and Audiocraft.
All of them but the wood made ( the wood does not likes to any cartridge. ) very good job . It is here where a cartridge could seems good or very good depending of the headshell where is mounted and the tonearm.
Example, I have hard time with some of those cartridge like the Audio Technica AT 20SS where its performance was on the bright sound that sometimes was harsh till I find that the ceramic headshell was/is the right match now this cartridge perform beautiful, something similar happen with the Nagaoka ( Jeweltone in Japan ), Shelter , Grace, Garrot , AKG and B&O but when were mounted in the right headshell/tonearm all them performs great.

Other things that you have to know: I use two different cooper headshell wires, both very neutral and with similar “ sound “ and I use three different phono cables, all three very neutral too with some differences on the sound performance but nothing that “ makes the difference “ on the quality sound of any of my cartridges, either MM or MC, btw I know extremely well those phono cables: Analysis Plus, Harmonic Technologies and Kimber Kable ( all three the silver models. ), finally and don’t less important is that those phono cables were wired in balanced way to take advantage of my Phonolinepreamp fully balanced design.

What do you note the first time you put your MM cartridge on the record?, well a total absence of noise/hum or the like that you have through your MC cartridges ( and that is not a cartridge problem but a Phonolinepreamp problem due to the low output of the MC cartridges. ), a dead silent black ( beautiful ) soundstage where appear the MUSIC performance, this experience alone is worth it.

The second and maybe the most important MM cartridge characteristic is that you hear/heard the MUSIC flow/run extremely “ easy “ with no distracting sound distortions/artifacts ( I can’t explain exactly this very important subject but it is wonderful ) even you can hear/heard “ sounds/notes “ that you never before heard it and you even don’t know exist on the recording: what a experience!!!!!!!!!!!

IMHO I think that the MUSIC run so easily through a MM cartridge due ( between other facts ) to its very high compliance characteristic on almost any MM cartridge.

This very high compliance permit ( between other things like be less sensitive to out-center hole records. ) to these cartridges stay always in contact with the groove and never loose that groove contact not even on the grooves that were recorded at very high velocity, something that a low/medium cartridge compliance can’t achieve, due to this low/medium compliance characteristic the MC cartridges loose ( time to time and depending of the recorded velocity ) groove contact ( minute extremely minute loose contact, but exist. ) and the quality sound performance suffer about and we can hear it, the same pass with the MC cartridges when are playing the inner grooves on a record instead the very high compliance MM cartridges because has better tracking drive perform better than the MC ones at inner record grooves and here too we can hear it.

Btw, some Agoners ask very worried ( on more than one Agon thread ) that its cartridge can’t track ( clean ) the cannons on the 1812 Telarc recording and usually the answers that different people posted were something like this: “””” don’t worry about other than that Telarc recording no other commercial recording comes recorded at that so high velocity, if you don’t have trouble with other of your LP’s then stay calm. “””””

Well, this standard answer have some “ sense “ but the people ( like me ) that already has/have the experience to hear/heard a MM or MC ( like the Ortofon MC 2000 or the Denon DS1, high compliance Mc cartridges. ) cartridge that pass easily the 1812 Telarc test can tell us that those cartridges make a huge difference in the quality sound reproduction of any “ normal “ recording, so it is more important that what we think to have a better cartridge tracking groove drive!!!!

There are many facts around the MM cartridge subject but till we try it in the right set-up it will be ( for some people ) difficult to understand “ those beauties “. Something that I admire on the MM cartridges is how ( almost all of them ) they handle the frequency extremes: the low bass with the right pitch/heft/tight/vivid with no colorations of the kind “ organic !!” that many non know-how people speak about, the highs neutral/open/transparent/airy believable like the live music, these frequency extremes handle make that the MUSIC flow in our minds to wake up our feelings/emotions that at “ the end of the day “ is all what a music lover is looking for.
These not means that these cartridges don’t shine on the midrange because they do too and they have very good soundstage but here is more system/room dependent.

Well we have a very good alternative on the ( very low price ) MM type cartridges to achieve that music target and I’m not saying that you change your MC cartridge for a MM one: NO, what I’m trying to tell you is that it is worth to have ( as many you can buy/find ) the MM type cartridges along your MC ones

I want to tell you that I can live happy with any of those MM cartridges and I’m not saying with this that all of them perform at the same quality level NO!! what I’m saying is that all of them are very good performers, all of them approach you nearest to the music.

If you ask me which one is the best I can tell you that this will be a very hard “ call “ an almost impossible to decide, I think that I can make a difference between the very good ones and the stellar ones where IMHO the next cartridges belongs to this group:

Audio Technica ATML 170 and 180 OCC, Grado The Amber Tribute, Grace Ruby, Garrot P77, Nagaoka MP-50 Super, B&O MMC2 and MMC20CL, AKG P8ES SuperNova, Reson Reca ,Astatic MF-100 and Stanton LZS 981.

There are other ones that are really near this group: ADC Astrion, Supex MF-100 MK2, Micro Acoustics MA630/830, Empire 750 LTD and 600LAC, Sonus Dimension 5, Astatic MF-200 and 300 and the Acutex 320III.

The other ones are very good too but less refined ones.
I try too ( owned or borrowed for a friend ) the Shure IV and VMR, Music maker 2-3 and Clearaudio Virtuoso/Maestro, from these I could recommended only the Clearaudios the Shure’s and Music Maker are almost mediocre ones performers.
I forgot I try to the B&O Soundsmith versions, well this cartridges are good but are different from the original B&O ( that I prefer. ) due that the Sounsmith ones use ruby cantilevers instead the original B&O sapphire ones that for what I tested sounds more natural and less hi-fi like the ruby ones.

What I learn other that the importance on the quality sound reproduction through MM type cartridges?, well that unfortunately the advance in the design looking for a better quality cartridge performers advance almost nothing either on MM and MC cartridges.

Yes, today we have different/advanced body cartridge materials, different cantilever build materials, different stylus shape/profile, different, different,,,,different, but the quality sound reproduction is almost the same with cartridges build 30+ years ago and this is a fact. The same occur with TT’s and tonearms. Is sad to speak in this way but it is what we have today. Please, I’m not saying that some cartridges designs don’t grow up because they did it, example: Koetsu they today Koetsu’s are better performers that the old ones but against other cartridges the Koetsu ones don’t advance and many old and today cartridges MM/MC beat them easily.

Where I think the audio industry grow-up for the better are in electronic audio items ( like the Phonolinepreamps ), speakers and room treatment, but this is only my HO.

I know that there are many things that I forgot and many other things that we have to think about but what you can read here is IMHO a good point to start.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
rauliruegas

Showing 45 responses by fleib

fleib
1,124 posts
 
I was thinking, there might not be much interest in phase as it relates to a phono cartridge. People seem to want cart recommendations and have little interest in technical matters so I'll just say this:
I base my conclusions on Ortofon measurements of phase in phono carts as appeared in an Audio mag article in 1983. These are actual measurements, not theory, and that's why most EEs get it wrong. Phase shift is determined by mechanical properties, high frequency resonance and mechanical damping. Electrical resonance only modifies this in MMs and has no affect in MCs.
http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=33679

The thing is, if you consider this in "ultimate" terms, our older records were mastered using tape and phono carts to check SQ. Perhaps that helps explain playback preferences?

Regards,
fleib
1,124 posts
 
I'm not saying this pertains to Lew, but when you have a stylus replaced or especially a stylus/cantilever you have to abandon some of your previous set-up adjustments and approach as if it's a new cartridge.

Obviously, alignment is whatever you use, but with azimuth and arm height you're back to square 1. And to a lesser degree anti-skate and VTF also might have to be changed.
Putting a new tip on a cantilever could result in a degree or two of difference from being absolutely perpendicular to the cart body or mounting plate. What if the cart was previously a degree or two off in the other direction?

SS ruby cantilevers have the tips pre-mounted. I think there's a photo of one on his site. The angle of the tip with respect to the cantilever might be different than that of the original. Even if VTA is the same, SRA is often different.
On another forum one of Mikey's Legion of 92° followers said the OCL tip vertical line is more forward than normal due to the diamond cut. Even though I have an OCL replacement tip, that's a little hard to confirm. The cart might be a tad lower in the back, but it's on a different arm.
Regards,

fleib
1,124 posts
 
**Hi Nandric: In every phono cartridge that I have seen, the cantilever rod is joined to the pivoting part of the cantilever assembly by means of a slightly larger tube called the "joint pipe". Joint pipes of different length make it possible to change the length of the cantilever rod, while keeping the same total length of the cantilever assembly** Jcarr

http://www.coolgales.com/brochures/AudioTechnicacartridgesbrochure.pdf

Here the joint pipe is called the pivot.
The suspension wire is called the flexible suspension filament.

In doing transplants, or in this case attempting a transplant, I came across an old beryllium cantilevered one that was different. Instead of a flexible wire the cantilever appeared to be one piece that went straight through the joint pipe. I guess it wasn't really one piece, but the suspension wire part had no sleeve and looked like the rest of the cantilever.
Beryllium is the most brittle of all cantilever materials, and it broke easily when I tightened the compliance screw.

That was the ATN152MLP which I bought NOS just before it went extinct. I just replaced it with a Signet MR5.0/ML. This example had an out of spec body and didn't sound too good. The stylus still has life and sounds wonderful on any 100/120 series body.
fleib
1,124 posts
 
Hi Nandric, I don't disagree with your assertion about suspension wires. I quoted a statement about joint pipes and your response was assumptive, a one sided debate.

As I previously stated, all cantilevers have a point of attachment regardless of what you call it. There are different methods of attaching them and not all look like an AT joint pipe which they call a pivot. That style facilitates entire cantilever replacement. It looks like a miniature plumbing end piece.

The Technics looks something like this?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PANASONIC-TECHNICS-NEEDLE-STYLUS-EPS-205C-EPC-205-EPC-207-CARTRIDGE-PM2857DE-/201074068252

That's a Jico regular replacement stylus. This will have an aluminum cantilever with a bonded elliptical stylus. The copper colored part could be considered a joint pipe, but call it whatever you like. It would be difficult to replace the entire cantilever on this.

This is a Jico SAS replacement. It has a boron cantilever and a micro ridge tip, a real bargain:
http://stylus.export-japan.com/product_info.php?cPath=10&products_id=1528&osCsid=dhb1o20212vpjnb4sv3gatgnf6

This is as close as you're going to get to original performance. Loading might have to be adjusted slightly. Give it a few hours to loosen up.
Regards,
fleib
1,124 posts
 
Hi Nandric,
You must have been angry when you wrote your last post because it's semi coherent. Once again you have me saying things I didn't say. Yes, I was somewhat embarrassed by that last set of exchanges between you and I on a public forum. Now you want to start again? Why is this nonsense worthy of everyone's time?

In the past you called me a clerk and now I'm arrogant, an arrogant ex clerk I suppose. Well, I know what I know and I know I never worked as a clerk. So what does that make you, mistaken? I worked in two different high end stores and was the "turntable guy" and the record buyer in probably the busiest high end store in the US. Besides working all day with record players I did such things as calling Scotland and buying out the Lyrita inventory. Now you know part of it, but who cares? This ended 25 years ago, why is this an issue? I was also cofounder and vice president of American Hybrid Technology. You can still buy the same phono stage, only now it's called Walker.

I also took a couple of logic courses in college. I might not be a logician but I know some faulty logic when I read it. I'm asking you to cease further name calling and personal attacks. When I said you are a lawyer and skilled at persuasion, or something to that effect, you took it as an insult. It was a compliment. Some of our most revered people like Abraham Lincoln were lawyers.
Storyboy was right. This BS is inappropriate. If you have further problems with me not concerning cartridges, send me an email.

Regards,
fleib
1,124 posts
 
Halcro,
Inspired by your post on this subject I'm checking out a mono cartridge, a loan of a DL102. This is HOMC, a true mono with only 2 long output pins so you have to double up the wire connectors. VTF is 2 to 4g w/3mV out. Tip is a .7mil spherical.

I just got it set-up recently so no revelatory comments, but one old Blue Note (Kenny Durham) seemed to have a presentation that was much better than playing it with a stereo cart or even the stereo version of the same recording with a "superior" cart. I'm referring to the presentation only, stage, natural balance and such.

This seems like a worthwhile pursuit for anyone with a mono collection. Ortofon makes some high end monos with advanced tips which should be better for modern pressings.

Regards,
fleib
1,124 posts
 
David,
"I do find my XL-MC104 very sweet, but clearly limited by its relatively ordinary cantilever (resulting in a noticeable resonance around 6kHz if I remember correctly from measurements a few years back) - I think the same beastie with a ruby or boron cantilever might be quite a magical cartridge... then it would be called an XL-MC3 (that is also LO rather than the 104 which is HO)"

6KHz ? Seems unusually low, does the 104 look like an MC2 or 3, but with a P-mount holder?

I just remounted my XL-MC2 (forgot I had it) in an Alphason HR100S. While not a world class cart, it is eminently listenable and has no glaring faults. I didn't measure the cantilever, but it looks to be about 4mm w/.2 x .7 tip.

I noticed the coupling between the cart body and the carrier benefits from some tack. I wonder if this could be the 6KHz resonance. It seems unlikely that such a low resonance could be from HO coil mass.

Regards,
fleib
1,124 posts
 
"The whole idea of this cartridge design was to replicate a M/C."

What gives you that idea, the low output? Did Stanton say that was a design goal?

The suffix LZ and HZ relate to impedance (Z), like a microphone. A low impedance mike requires higher gain like a LO cart. Inductance is the number of turns on the coils and relates directly to impedance.
Stanton designed the cart to work into a MC phono input, that much we know, but to say they were replicating a MC assumes too much IMO. They were made to compete.

The only thing the 981HZ and LZ had in common is both were TOTL and both had stereohedron tips. Stanton made 3 different LZ models. Stanton product catalogue:
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/master/mbrs/recording_preservation/manuals/Stanton%20Product%20Catalog.pdf

neo
fleib
1,124 posts
 
Oh boy, where to start? There's lots of misinformation and/or apples/oranges comparisons the last 10 posts. We're presented with specs that ignore the generator and price comparisons that span 20 or 40 years. When I was a little kid gasoline was $0.25/gallon. As Miles would say, So What.

A .2 x .7 mil elliptical has the smallest contact area of any stylus. It's a tiny oval. The .2 mil minor radius means it's also very slim and can track high frequencies like a banshee. There were a couple of CD-4 carts that used .2 elliptical. The problem is lack of vertical contact area, and all things being equal it will wear the fastest.

.2mil = 5.08um - thinner than shibata. Shibata has greater vertical contact area. It's thin enough for high frequencies and will tend to miss less from tracing or worn records. It's also cut with different facets on the front and back. That gives it a curved contact area as the record spins past and the "romantic" sound. It's actually a softening of high frequencies.
More later,
fleib
1,124 posts
 
Chakster,
Best alignment for 7" 45's? Interesting question. The groove only spans about 30mm, roughly between 55 and 85mm from center spindle. Any conventional alignment will put the outer null off the record. Stevenson inner null - 60.325mm, Baerwald - 66mm, Loefgren B - 70.3mm. Stevenson or Baerwald?

Here's what I would do.
1) Go to Vinyl Engine and download a Chpratz protractor. Every self respecting turntablist should have one. It's just a calibrated straight line w/grid, but it comes in handy.
2) Buy or rig up a straight arm w/no offset like the ViV Rigid Float or similar. Don't want to spend $4K ? Find a straight arm with conventional headshell connection like Graham Robin or Stanton straight DJ arm.
3) Use regular SME type headshell(s). Mount the arm on a heavy pod or in such a way to get underhang null around 67mm. Set VTF and use no anti-skate.

You could easily swap carts and I'll bet it knocks your socks off.
OR, use the Chpratz to find the best null.
Regards,
fleib
1,124 posts
 
Chakster,
"It's a bit shoking price for me as i have one NOS Astrion myself, but i don't have the right tonearm for this cartridge. It was in the Raul's list of interesting MM cartridges in the beginnings."

You were right the first time - don't have the right arm.
Either does Griffithds unless his arm collection is more extensive than listed.

Raul was of the opinion that arm mass, bearing type, removable headshell or not, etc. didn't matter when mating to a cart. This was all based on resulting low frequency resonance and overall quality, like those are the only considerations. I think this mentality was adopted by most everyone posting here.
Raul was wrong.

I'm not saying your comparison of the EPC100c MKIII to the Astrion would change, but you don't really know until you optimize the set up for each.
What's the compliance of Astrion, 30 to 50cu?? I don't know but that wouldn't be unusual for ADC or Sonus.
Pritchard's Sonus unipivot arm has eff mass of 4.1g - very low moment of inertia.

I've read about older ADC carts having dried up or semi functional suspensions, but if it tracks it probably needs more time. NOS means it's never been played and might require 50 hrs or more break in.

Regards,

fleib
1,124 posts
 
Two carts for sale:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/231749676413?rmvSB=true&afsrc=1&rmvSB=true

http://www.topclassaudio.com/web/eng/used_product_details.jsp?gid=7825
fleib
1,124 posts
 

Some months ago I bought a Signet MR5.0 ML  I really bought it for the beryllium/ML stylus, hoping it still has life.  The MR5.0 series has a  490mH generator similar to a 440/120 or a 155, 160 etc. 

I lucked out on that one.  The stylus sounds good on another body, but the old generator does not.  It does not measure well either.

My experience with the Victor carts is quite different from Raul.  I've only tried one X1 on extended loan. It had an original beryllium/shibata I believe. The Z1/SAS dramatically outperformed it. It wasn't close.

Maybe the X1 wasn't at its best or maybe Raul's Z1 performed like my MR5.0. 


fleib
1,124 posts
 

Ottoman,

Interesting manual of the MF100.  I notice on page 6 inductance is 90mH - remarkably low.  Reminiscent of the Signet TK9/10 series of 85mH, but quite different design.  Thanks for posting it.

Regards,

fleib
1,124 posts
 

Griff,

I believe that sweetness has to do with phase. The shibata tip has a different facet on the back as on the front. That makes the contact area curved as the record spins. 

Ortofon has been using the shibata for a long time to voice their carts. If you check out their Cadenza line the Black is boron/shibata. The Bronze is aluminum/replicant. The Blue is ruby/FG70, and Red is Aluminum/fine line. Seems a little odd to have a shibata TOTL over the replicant.

Stumbling on tip dimensions at LpGear, they claim the vivid line has the exact dimensions as the Jico shibata.   

Regards, 

fleib
1,124 posts
 

Griff,

Even though these vivid and shibata  have the same tip dimensions (6/75um), the shibata still has that different facet, front to back. The vivid should sound more like a fine line or LC without the curved contact area. It's been my experience with different carts, that a shibata will slightly soften the extreme high end. I also think this is reflected in Ortofon voicing.

Looking at the 2M, the Bronze is fine line and Black is shibata. They share the same generator. It seems widely accepted that the Bronze has a more relentless quality and the Black sweetens it a bit. The cantilevers are the same. The Cadenza Black is a shibata paired with a boron cantilever, perhaps to sound less analytical?  Now AT has a 33Sa - shibata.  I assume this is to tone it down slightly but not as much as the 33EV.

Jico has a great reputation for quality, although their regular offerings are limited to straight aluminum cantilevers and bonded tips.  I don't know if the Vivid mfg. QC is as good, but most seem happy with results.

As far as the actual source of a diamond, it's hard to say. AFAIK, Namiki and Ogura supply almost all the advanced cuts. These will often come to the cart assembler/company already mounted on the cantilever, especially if it's exotic. Jico probably mounts the diamonds themselves for their regular replacements and perhaps Namiki for SAS?  Don't assume too much on this topic. That MP50 you mentioned a while ago might have a stylus made by Ogura or Namiki. If Nagaoka makes bonded replacements, it might be better/cheaper for them to outsource the stylus.

Regards,.

fleib
1,124 posts
 

Griff,

Regarding Jico and SAS - I'm not sure about the development of the original SAS stylus and its application, but a Shure replacement stylus might have been it. The SAS tip looks identical to a microridge or microline. I believe tip dimensions are 2.5 x 75um.  Ironically, the Shure SAS replacements give flatter response in the higher inductance models. This would be the V15III, and IV, and some older models like the M91 or current M97.

As you know, I didn't do this testing, the info comes from David Dlaloum who is retired from posting, at least for now. The quality of SAS is first rate whoever does the actual manufacturing. These are nude single crystal tips precision mounted on a boron cantilever and with a tension wire. 

Unfortunately, just as the SAS doesn't seem to be as well suited to the V15V, it's not a great alternative for all models.  Fortunately, it sounds wonderful on the Victor Z1 models. Z1/SAS has speed and resolution reminiscent of the TK10ML II.  It might not be the perfect cart. I found a slight lack of linearity going soft to loud, but this is one of the most enjoyable new (to me) carts I've heard in awhile.

Thanks to you and Nandric for bringing it to our attention.

Regards,

fleib
1,124 posts
 

Chakster,

Right you are.  I remember Raul declaring the MF2500 the best MM/MI cart in the universe, and any other universe for that matter.  Page 207:

**Dear friends: No doubt, the JVC X-1MK1 is not anymore the second best MM/MI but the third best.

I tested the Astatic MF-2500 and compare it against the MF-200 both JVC X-1s, the ANV, the Precept 440LC and Pioneer PC550 and the MF-2500 outperforms all them in almost any single cartridge performnace characteristics.

IMHO the MF-2500 puts a new standards level. No one of those cartridges can even the MF-2500 frequency extremes performance. The kind of bass management handle by the 2500 is the nearest one I heard on any cartridge to the latest digital experince and at the other frequency extreme the word " definition " took a new dimension. Please name any cartridge characteristic you like and the 2500 has on spare and to spread it.
For the first time I really enjoy and give a real value to the cartridge characteristic name it: soundstage and this happened thank's to those both great frequency extreme kind of performance where definition, transparency , endless presentation, reality, dynamics, natural agresiveness and balanced tone along " light speed " on transients gave the cartridge performance a " rythmum to die for " like no other MM/MI transducer.**

Regarding the MF100, 200 vs. the  M31L.  It would be nice to have multiple samples to test or mfg specs. I have no experience with any of these, but a difference of inductance of > 20% seems to indicate a different model. However, with these low inductance numbers they look similar, but different. Normally, the one with greater resistance/inductance will have greater output, but magnet strength plays a part as well.

There are examples of identical carts from different manufacturers, largely due to the prevalent use of a Japanese OEM. In the case of Stanton/Pickering there are identical carts from these sister companies. The 981LZ is identical to Pickering 7500, and the 881 is the same as the Pickering XSV3000. I believe the CS100 is a later model introduced after QC went downhill?

Regards,

fleib
1,124 posts
 

Lew,

It was J Carr who mentioned the Ortofon MC3000 as being an outstanding air coil design. Is the 3000 better than the 2000?

They are similar. BTW, is your 2000 MKI or 2?  They're different. More so than the Victor X1 MKI and 2.  The 3000 also has a MK2 version.

Nuances of difference?

Regards,

fleib
1,124 posts
 

Dear Comrade Nandric,

"Low rider" is friendly?  More of an oxymoron methinks, like Hell's Angels.

Ride like the wind, little stylus. Many miles before I sleep and the hour is fast upon us.

Regards,

fleib
1,124 posts
 

Pryso,

I beg your pardon. AFAIK only in Calif is there Mexican jumping bean cars. I completely forgot, being firmly planted in the Right coast. I hope that's not politically incorrect to identify the cars as such. Well, not really.

Good question about suspension refresh.  Reseat the cantilever? Bend some aluminum?  I believe J Carr told us the cart is better without a tension wire. Does your model have a boron tube or rod?  Maybe we should have a group buy of boron tube/microridge.

Regards,

fleib
1,124 posts
 

Comrade Nickola,

Just for the record, they weren't married at the time and it was her decision. Not sure if this gives me the moral high ground, but nobody cares anymore.

Seems to me the potential for a MM to outperform a MC might have something to do with eliminating the dreaded tension wire.

Regards,

fleib
1,124 posts
 

Pryso,

The viability and/or liability of ground effects and spoilers on street racers is, in some ways similar to this discussion of tension wires.   Form follows function, or when is enough too much? 

I had a '72 Firebird 350 and bought a factory style spoiler for it. I took it off cause it slowed me down.  Big time.  Ground effects will limit air getting under the car and lifting you off the ground, but can get in the way if you're going down steps near Lombard St. in San Francisco.

A tension wire will or can effect the resonance of the cantilever. It should help with longevity, but limits glory? 

Regards,

fleib
1,124 posts
 

Nandric,

Because of Chakster?  I think you're reluctant to say because you know I'm right.  I'm pretty sure J Carr said something similar, but even if not, I'm still right.

Here's how it is:  It's the wiggles/vibrations of the cantilever which excite the generator.  To maintain the integrity of those vibrations, would it be better to have or not, a tension wire hanging off of it??

Regards,



fleib
1,124 posts
 

Nandric,

To highlight your correction, the DL110 is extremely popular in the US. Those buyers would do well to note that 129 euros = $146.76 US dollars.

The US price is now $300 from an authorized dealer. 

Regards,

fleib
1,124 posts
 

Dear Comrade Nandric,

A small investigation was launched concerning the source of these "exotic" styli components. Some of us remember the trouble your friend Axel had in sourcing these miniature gems and rare metals. It's hard to say exactly if there was price fixing or restraint of trade, as I'm not privy to the laws in Japan, but it seems as if deals were struck with the major purchasers of these items concerning availability.

This is the shoppen sie in question:

https://www.schallplattennadeln.de/

Imagine selling a DL-110 for $129K ???  Did Denon charge him extra or is Axel gouging?  What's the difference between a decimal point and a comma? 

When is the rest of the world going to switch back to base 60?  Base 10 is for morons. Base 60 is the way of this universe. We divide time and the heavens by 12 and 60.

There was a rumor about Axel getting his needles through the local butcher shop. They were supposedly smuggled into Germany by Syrian refugees. We can neither confirm or deny such rumors. Seems like Europeans are taking one hell of a chance with that. We wish you luck.

Sincerely,


fleib
1,124 posts
 

Dear Comradicule Nandric,

Why does the rubber duck hate the tension wire?  Is the wire poking the duckie? 

Why can't they just get along?

Regards,

fleib
1,124 posts
 

RAULIRUEGAS,

**Now regarding my indiscretion about your and Axel conflict.

I deed not mention any details because of confidential characterof this ussue. But your ''shame of you'' reprimand give methe legitimation to disclouse the details. The bill in question was $ 6000.**

What's the story here Raul?  You say this is wrong. Please explain.

Seems like you go from one cart rebuilder to the next leaving a big bill behind?  Is that the problem with Soundsmith, having to pay in advance?

What's the problem with Dertonearm?  As I understand it he had to declare bankruptcy and some people lost money. This is a legitimate thing, when debts overwhelm a business or individual and continued business is impossible.  Perhaps your problem with Dertonearm has nothing to do with this, please explain yourself.

I think I made it clear on the tonearm thread, exactly what I think of you and your stories of scientists and electron microscopes.  You've used this forum to promote private sales of your phonolinepreamp.  Did you pay a fee to Audiogon for these sales? 

I don't care what Aceman, Chakster, or anyone else thinks. It's obvious to me that you used JCarr's recommendations as your own and scoured various archives for recommendations. Nothing wrong with that, but using this forum for private sales is unethical - cheating.  Why shouldn't you be reported to Audiogon? 

Sincerely,

 

fleib
1,124 posts
 

The audio manufacturing business seems dirtier/nastier than most, but I'm not a big business person. Maybe they're all like that?  Why do you think someone like Mitch Cotter filled his electronics with expanding foam, resonance control?

It does not matter if a little guy has a patent, the big guys will steal your circuit anyway and probably put you out of business before your law suit hits the docket. Why pay "big" money for a well written patent when it's rendered useless?  Big electronics manufacturers have teams of lawyers on their payrolls and everybody knows the best lawyer usually wins, so what's the point?

It seems like there are three big stylus manufacturers, Ogura, Namiki, and Nagaoka.  The first two are high tech companies that also make precision parts for medical and aerospace industries. Nagaoka is the largest stylus manufacturer in the world. I think they make the Vivid line for Lp Gear.  Companies like Clearaudio, Lyra, Dynavector etc. etc. seem to have exclusive deals with Ogura and Namiki and small companies might be locked out. I remember when Nandric wrote about Axel's trouble finding a source for replacement styli.

The US is by far the # 1 consumer of everything. Why do we subsidize (low tariff) everyone else at our own expense? Some of our biggest exports are intellectual property and artistic copyright, which are ignored with abandon, but that's going off the subject.  We in the US don't have to be subservient to International law, civil or criminal. We are the law. We define the law for over 200 years and we apologize to the rest of the world because we're successful?

Nandric, I hear you're a lawyer?  Think anything can be done legally to free up the stylus business? Maybe negative PR for the companies involved will shame them, but it seems like they know no shame.

Regards

fleib
1,124 posts
 

Comrade Nickola,

No one has ever accused me of being a diplomat. I grew up watching WW II movies and of a mind that Japan and Germany have not been punished sufficiently for past atrocities.  It was my sincere desire to see Tokyo hit with an A bomb, but alas, it was out of range.  This happened before I was born, but I wished the movie would end differently.

J. Carr did you no favor providing an email address.  You could get that from the net. What you need is some kind of recommendation which was not provided. I think Lyra gets assemblies from both Ogura and Namiki.  Their less expensive models sport microridges, but have a different Japanese OEM. Lyra might use Ogura exclusively and the OEM uses Namiki?

I wonder where Soundsmith sourced his ruby/LC and micro ?  He's a manufacturer not a retipper. Maybe that has something to do with it?

There are some new carts coming out of China. They are being well received.  Japan has been using China as electronics OEM for decades, but now that is taboo for us?  Find your source in China. Their manufacturing capabilities are the equal, even superior to Japan.  Does China manufacture rockets, satellites, and medical equipment?  I think so.

Nobody cares where you stylus assemblies are sourced. They care about results.

Regards,

fleib
1,124 posts
 

Hi Chakster,

Interesting post. The CS 100 has the lowest inductance of the Stanton HOMMs.  Is the D81/91 stylus interchangeable with the CS100 ?

Concerning the LZ, do you have a phono preamp with high gain and selectable resistance?  The 980LZ has a treble droop which seems to be noticeably improved when loaded between 1 - 2Kohms.  Both David Dlaloum and R Flood (asylum) have measured a significant improvement. I think the ZYX head amp is fixed at 100 ohms ?

Not long age there was a thread on Karma about Expert re-tipping some Stanton carts. Seems that two different carts wound up with different length cantilevers, both of which were wrong.  Perhaps you should consider Axel or Soundsmith.

Regards, 

fleib
1,124 posts
 

Chakster,

Seems the CS100 is unique and the styli are not interchangeable  because the coils don't match up.  Closest match is the Pickering D3000.


http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=5881.0

Regards,

fleib
1,124 posts
 

Chakster, JLTi phono stage has sockets for loading plugs. David Dlaloum  (used to post here) has one and thinks highly of it. They were $1800 US. It might be hard to find one on the used market. They are now being made in Australia and sold direct by Custom Analogue Audio - $990 AUD. 

I bought a Vista Audio phono MK II for loading options. You plug in resistors on the board for load and gain. Mine also has sockets for capacitors, or you can order whatever native capacitance you want. Gain is from 40 to 70dB. The sound is neutral, fast and clean. I bought it as a tool to check out loading, but it's surprisingly good. It sounds like my AHT (PIA to change load and reset DC offset) only not as clean or refined.  $300 US - Vista Audio. 

I remember the McCormack ('80s).  It does not have enough gain for many LOMCs - 55dB max.  I use 60dB on the 980LZ - .3mV out.  IMO the Vista sounds much better -S/N,  etc, but no direct comparison.

Regards,

fleib
1,124 posts
 

Chakster,

David's web site is here:

https://sites.google.com/site/zevaudio/david-s-audio-site

If you order it with the native resistance of 1 M ohm, then any value of resistance you put in parallel results in the preamp resistance becoming virtually that of the loading plug.

Regards,

fleib
1,124 posts
 

 King of the thread.

Chakster, Here Here !!

You're a bastion of sanity while Raul's away.  I have a feeling he'll be back.

Nandric, you know what they say. If you have to ask, you can't afford it. Now, go cry in your beer for all the money you spent. Did Raul give you a bum steer?

Regards,

fleib
1,124 posts
 

It seems the Stantering 881/3000 are the same, just as the 981LZ = 7500. Wasn't this posted previously?  They will take any Pickering D3000 on up.

Critically damped loading makes the most sense to me. Rules don't necessarily apply to all carts and preamps.  Load some 690mH carts @ 100K and look at the jagged, peaky response.  A cart designed for 4-ch will be low inductance - extended response potential usually with a rising high end (w/100K load) mimicking an MC. 

Adding capacitance will lower high frequency resonance - a good thing?

It might be in order to fill in dips, especially in mid/top range, but use as little as possible..

fleib
1,124 posts
 

Hi Raul, About MM loading - It's preamp and system dependent.

Although people will often agree about a load for a particular cart, others might get different results. I think it has a lot to do with preamp topology, bandwidth and that sort of thing. Something like your preferring different kinds of transistors for gain stages.  What if you had a tube RIAA stage, think you might have different results?

Regards,

fleib
1,124 posts
 

Hi Chakster, No cart is immune to capacitance load. That's a common misconception by owners of low inductance models. Even a LOMC is not immune.

Inductance is a property of the output and it combines with the capacitance of the arm wire, cable, and preamp to form a tank circuit which defines electrical resonance.  That's where most EE's get lost.

High frequency mechanical resonance defines response peak and a 180° phase shift.  Mechanical damping will lower the amplitude of the peak and spread the phase shift to a wider band on either side of the peak.

That is one advantage of exotic cantilevers. They generally have a higher resonant frequency.  A 6 mm boron cantilever will resonate around 27 KHz, depending on particulars. Shorten the cantilever and it will resonate at a slightly higher frequency.

Grado MI is almost undamped. That's why the peak does not extend too much downward. If you noticed on Grado site, the more expensive models reduce tip mass. This extends response. Joe Grado sang opera  and the goal was pure reproduction of the human voice. I used a TLZ for awhile and vocals were magical.

We can discuss the implications of capacitance loading vs. extension and "musical" types with less extended response some time, but the hour is late here.

Regards, 

fleib
1,124 posts
 

I think the question of loading options might need some clarification. In general, a HO cart will afford the ability to "tune" the cart.  A LO cart does not give you that flexibility. FR remains the same regardless of load.

If you hear mid/high glare with a LO cart, it might be an RF type noise intermodulation, not the FR of the cart. The only option to correct this condition is to load down (electrically), or have a low pass filter limiting bandwidth.

As Atmasphere posted on another thread,  capacitance matters here too. Even though electrical resonance might be some astronomical number it will cause ultra high frequency noise of high amplitude.

Some might remember J carr explaining this, around page 216 (?) of this thread.

Load down a LOMC and you change not only this noise suppression, but control of the cantilever movements (damping).  My Genesis 1000 has response well above 100K @ 4 ohm internal. Through my unshielded AHT it sounds too big - larger than life loaded @ 47K.  100 ohms seems perfect, balancing focus vs. size.  Once again, loading is preamp and system dependent.

There are 2 kinds of damping - electrical and mechanical. MM types are generally more highly damped mechanically. My rule of thumb for loading MM - use as little capacitance as possible while finding optimal resistance load.

fleib


fleib
1,124 posts
 

Smctigue1,

You might have trouble finding a SME III in great condition. Do you know how to take a quick check of the vertical bearings?  It was a popular low mass arm back in the day, but has a bad reputation among the audiofool crowd using low cu carts.  It's a bit tricky to set up with spring loaded VTF, but if you divide the force between spring and gravity you can get some nice results.

Low mass arms went out of favor in the '80s with the MC.  I like the Unitrac arm. It's 7g eff mass.  Is a Moerch  within budget? 

Regards,

fleib
1,124 posts
 

40 cu ?  It's about half that amount. Regarding reliability problems with vintage Unitrac and my Sonus Formula 4 - batches of defective returns were found and sold as NOS to unsuspecting consumers.  I had to replace the bakelite (?) cueing platform on the Sonus. With a custom headshell it's an excellent low mass arm. Unitrac arms which have been in continuous service have no such problem. Matter of fact, the arm was recommended to me by Win Timmon (mosin), maker of Saskia turntable. This is probably the world's greatest idler.

If you can find a functional Unitrac, the only modification to improve performance (besides a tricky rewire) would be to eliminate the wire connector at the back of the headshell and solder clips onto the wires. The arm also has VTA on the fly - a necessity for me.

I don't know of a low mass Brit arm that is quite as good.  You can get nice results with the SME, but I suspect even better results with a newer model. I think it's a 309 with a removable headshell and comes in 2 or 3 different lengths.

If any of this is confusing, I'll be glad to explain.

Regards,

fleib
1,124 posts
 

Chakster,

AFAIK, Grace was the only company to use a .2 x .7 mil elliptical for 4-ch tracing.  That minor radius is sufficient for required high frequency reproduction. 

Beryllium was phased out in early '80s due to highly toxic dust.  It's interesting to compare properties of the various cantilever types  now available.  I believe J Carr helped us out with this information around 30 pages ago.

Regards,

fleib
1,124 posts
 

Chakster,

Who else used a .2 x .7 mil elliptical for 4-ch.  ?

Regards,

fleib
1,124 posts
 

AFAIK Grace was the only company who used a .2 mil ellip for 4-ch. 

Shibata was developed for the format - high frequency tracing.  

It's come back into vogue, and rightfully so IMO.  Sweetens the high end, and if you noticed, Ortofon uses it on their TOTL popularly priced.

fleib


fleib
1,124 posts
 

Chakster,

I posted a bunch of vintage spec sheets although I'm not sure if Grace

was among them.  You can find the spec on VE database. Despite

reports to the contrary, most of those specs are dead-on.  I supplied

some specs myself - mfg. data sheets.  Look at the photo of the Pioneer

PC 401 MC, a sweet little HOMC with user replaceable stylus.  Good luck

finding a stylus now though.  The replacement was practically the entire

generator, or so it looked.  It also looked like it was made by AT.

A .2 mil minor radius  can track the high frequencies, but the question

remains about the longevity of the rear channels.  I don't really know, I

never got into the format. 

Best Regards,

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