What is the standard for judging a systems sound?

funny but so many people stress comparing stereo performance to live music - what a joke
most live music is not live music but amplified
(a rock band playing through a pa system is not live music in the sense of true tonal reproduction)

I have the luxury of living in New Orleans and can catch jazz bands with little amplification (especially if I am sitting near the front between the pa monitors and close enough to get the sound direct from the instruments

but my favorite moment was at FEz at the Time in Manhattan catching the 18 piece Mingus Big Band 2 years ago. They had let go of their sound engineer and apologized for not amplifying the instuments (except flute). The sound that filled that club was to die for. Dynamic beyond measure and you could close your eyes and with pinpoint accuracy discern the various players. I was in tears it was so overwelming.

I play guitar and I know what guitar overtones on an acoustic should sound like - also the sound of a live piano, you get those two instruments even close in a stereo setting and you get the emotional side of music

You are right on Audiotomb. Live music is usually amplified. I was at a concert last night and the sound was excellent, but I could hear the sax 10 ft in front of me center stage as well as commming out of the monitor hanging from the ceiling to my right. Dynamics is where it's at with live music, no system can do dynamics like live, plus most recording engineers compress recordings to limit the dynamic range.

It is controversal, but important issue. I think all responses above make sense in their perspectives.

Yes, there is the true sound of every musical instrument albeit we don't know what the sound really sounds like. However, what we hear is only perceived sound of music, and we make decision based on the perceived sound.

Our emotion/mood is involved in such perception. Therefore, depending upon our emotion at that time of hearing, people say good or no good.

Theoretically, I think we can reproduce the true sound, but in reality, it is not so easy. That's why we try to change, upgrade, tweak, and do others all the time to get better sound.

In short, as all the above people mentioned, there are so many factors involved in making judgement. Therefore, if you are satisfied with any sound of music in a given circumstance, that is the criteria of judging the sound of music whatever components you are using and wherever you are.

Happy New Year.

I've enjoyed reading this thread immensely. I think the first post hits the nail on the head. Although I have a very large collection of musical recordings, I can honestly say that I have only experienced live performances by maybe 1% of the artists in my collection. I may be in the minority here, but reproducing a live event though my sound system has NEVER been one of my main objectives in assembling a musical system or enjoying it thereafter. Trying to guess what a live performance would sound like from each artist in each setting would be like chasing an intangible for me.

This is why I like this hobby so much. Everyone is in it for something different. The lucky ones that frequent live events have every right to attempt to recreate the experience. Others have never even been to a live concert, so to speak, and simply want to expose themselves to as many different types of music as possible through recordings on vinyl, tape or CD. Still there are others who prefer the intimacy and privacy of headphones and are accustomed to this sound that others consider "unnatural".

I believe this is one reason why there is still such a debate over 2-channel vs. surround sound audio. I have heard $100,000 surround systems set up by manufacturers at their booths and STILL do not think it sounds natural to MY ears. This is because I grew up listening to 2-channel and this is what my experience tells me the music should sound like through an audio system. I also prefer CD to vinyl (everyone cringe), but I have heard very good examples of both and still prefer CD. I think it's all about your comfort zone and what your listening experiences have done to shape your perception of what sounds right.

Ever go to a concert and listen to the guitar solo that you've heard hundreds of times on your home system and been disappointed at the way it was played or sounded live? Sometimes the recorded event surpasses the live, and maybe it's just because you're used to the studio sound and actually prefer it.

I don't claim to have the end-all of home theater setups, but I at least know that all channel levels are matched, and the sub is set to the appropriate level. Most of my friends and family are not audiophiles by any stretch. Visit their homes and they all have the sub cranked way up and the typical rumble sounds great to them. They always ask me why I have my sub level set so "low". Even though I know it's at the proper level, their preference is for the rumble-box sound that sounds better to them. They're used to it, and that is what sounds right to them. Technically, we could all fault their preference, as we "know what is right and wrong" in the way something sounds, but from a perception and enjoyment standpoint, why make them listen to something that doesn't sound right to them, just for the sake of being at "reference" level?

The same can be said about various forms of music and how a person evaluates their sounds system. Some would argue that classical or acoustic jazz recordings are the reference for judging timbre, soundstage, etc. It is true that many mainstream recordings are poor, but many enjoy the actual music and how it makes them feel without regards to how the treble was recorded "hot" or bass energy is extreme in the 40Hz region, etc. If a guy listens to Metallica and enjoys it, then he should build a system that will make him happy listening to Metallica. He would probably consider a 5-watt single ended triode amp to be a waste of money and a poor product choice, even though these are cosidered the Holy Grail in musicality for others. In this case, an old high powered Adcom could be considered a better amp than a Cary.

In any case, at the point when all I want to do is sit down and listen to disc after disc (or tape or LP) without the thought of what could sound better is when I have achieved the goal of my sound system. I've had glimpses, but never for long. Hopefully the day will come.

Sorry to be so long-winded.

And then there's the question of the different distortions added by the various microphones and recording techniques/machines used...

Of course Nrchy you are right in your critique, but there's still validity in the preference for acoustic instruments recorded live with minimal mic'ing in a real performance space, and with minimal alteration/processing during mixdown (or no mixing altogether). I won't go into all the possible reasons for this here, other than to say that it *is* very easy to hear for yourself that such records are usually far more revealing of the fine nuances of things like timbre and harmonic structure, low-level detail, and spatial cues than are recordings of electric instruments cut in multitrack studio settings. In other words, when I want to really hear what some change to my system is doing to the music, I always make sure to put on some more or less naturally-recorded acoustic material in addition to whatever else I might use, because quite simply it will show me the differences in the most revealing light possible.

None of which means that one can't or shouldn't use electric rock or whatever else to audition with, especially if that music accounts for most of what you listen to at home. Such recordings can and will be more demanding of systems in certain sonic areas where many acoustic performances tend not to be, and thus can reveal other qualities about a system. But what really helps is to keep the law of averages on your side, by auditioning many different kinds of music and recordings: If one system configuration can consistently give you a more natural impression - with more of your recordings - than some other system configuration can, than it's a good bet that system is, overall, providing reproduction that's closer to the 'truth', whatever that may be for any one given record. By the same token, utilizing a broad spectrum of recorded sources allows more accurate identification of any constant colorations or other distortions that are actually being contributed by the system itself. My own philosophy is of the 'master-tape' school of thought: The best you can strive for in a playback system is to 'accurately' portray what was laid down on the master-tape, as opposed to the live performance that tape was attempting to capture. Some will disagree, but I think that by trying to do the former, you are apt to get closer to achieving the latter on a more consistent basis. But you'll never get all the way there, or really even near enough for rock'n'roll...

One more thing: The very best, most revealing recorded source you can possibly use is the well-recorded speaking voice of someone you know well (not yourself! - we don't know what we sound like to others). But even this test only illuminates a relatively small portion of the frequency and dynamic ranges, and is not terribly complex or demanding a signal compared to group music. Its virtue is that we are intimately familiar with that voice as a reference, and that evolution has provided that our ears are most sensitive to minute variations in the human voice. The fact that this ostensibly simple test can never be satisfactorily met tells us all we need to know about what kind of chance we stand trying to reproduce live music convincingly.

Which is why, in my system, I don't try to. I just want my system to sound pretty good to me, meaning fairly uncorrupting of what my own sense about the 'correct' sound of decent recordings ought to be, with as little obvious sound contribution of its own as I can manage given my budget and commitment limitations. At the end of the day, if I can get close enough to where I'm not thinking about the sound of my system but just the music I'm playing, I really suspect that's all I can ask for. The funny thing is, this is very easy for me to do when I'm listening to a crap system, like the one I purposefully leave as stock in my car or my kitchen radio - I dial it in as well as I can, and then proceed to just get lost in the music, if it's good music. Only with the higher fidelity sound of the big rig do I tend to focus nearly as much on purely sonic attributes - is that self-defeating, or just the nature of the beast (or both)?