2. cables
  3. 166070-159469

What do we hear when we change the direction of a wire?

Douglas Self wrote a devastating article about audio anomalies back in 1988. With all the necessary knowledge and measuring tools, he did not detect any supposedly audible changes in the electrical signal. Self and his colleagues were sure that they had proved the absence of anomalies in audio, but over the past 30 years, audio anomalies have not disappeared anywhere, at the same time the authority of science in the field of audio has increasingly become questioned. It's hard to believe, but science still cannot clearly answer the question of what electricity is and what sound is! (see article by A.J.Essien).

For your information: to make sure that no potentially audible changes in the electrical signal occur when we apply any "audio magic" to our gear, no super equipment is needed. The smallest step-change in amplitude that can be detected by ear is about 0.3dB for a pure tone. In more realistic situations it is 0.5 to 1.0dB'". This is about a 10% change. (Harris J.D.). At medium volume, the voltage amplitude at the output of the amplifier is approximately 10 volts, which means that the smallest audible difference in sound will be noticeable when the output voltage changes to 1 volt. Such an error is impossible not to notice even using a conventional voltmeter, but Self and his colleagues performed much more accurate measurements, including ones made directly on the music signal using Baxandall subtraction technique - they found no error even at this highest level.

As a result, we are faced with an apparently unsolvable problem: those of us who do not hear the sound of wires, relying on the authority of scientists, claim that audio anomalies are BS. However, people who confidently perceive this component of sound are forced to make another, the only possible conclusion in this situation: the electrical and acoustic signals contain some additional signal(s) that are still unknown to science, and which we perceive with a certain sixth sense.

If there are no electrical changes in the signal, then there are no acoustic changes, respectively, hearing does not participate in the perception of anomalies. What other options can there be?

Regards.
anton_stepichev

Showing 14 responses by anton_stepichev

anton_stepichev OP
150 posts
 
@andy2
4+7 = 3+8? Don't look the same to me.

Your answer only say that you do not understand the basics of computer technology. It doesn't matter what seems different to you, it only matters what the computer understands the same.

Computers consider files to be the same if they have the same checksum. This rule holds all digital technology - the work of software, the Internet, and so on, including the picture on the screen that you are looking at now. If this rule didn't work, you would be looking at a black screen right now.

I'm waiting for something smarter from you.
anton_stepichev OP
150 posts
 
if you start with a flawed premise you often end up with a flawed conclusion.
That is certainly true.
anton_stepichev OP
150 posts
 
@andy2
I think your understanding of what is "the same" and what is "different" is too simplistic. You’re showing off of your "computer skills" seems a little too obvious.

Can you say anything on the merits of the case?
anton_stepichev OP
150 posts
 
@herman
2 files with different checksums are different, 2 files with identical checksums could be different
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hash_collision


Thank you for the interesting information, I take off my hat! Yes, I have to admit that the checksum is not a proof of the similarity of the files, although the probability of the match is extremely low and this is definitely not our case.

In our case it is easy to exclude any possible mistake, it’s enough to open the files in the hex editor and compare their binary code. See the screenshot https://www.backtomusic.ru/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/hex-compare.png - the files are identical (there is an empty "Comparison results" window on the right).

This simple experiment can be carried out by anyone. I hope there are no more doubts about the identity of the files?
anton_stepichev OP
150 posts
 
@herman
I actually have no idea what the file debate is about, no idea how we got from wire directionality to checksums as I didn’t trudge through the whole thread. sorry
In a broad sense, the topic is devoted to audio anomalies that cannot be explained from the point of view of ordinary physics. Such anomalies include differences in the sound when a short piece of wire is reversed in the signal circuit, the audibility of wires in the AC power supply circuit, the difference in the sound of identical copies of digital files when they are played from the same disk, as well as the possibility of creating an exact digital copy of the file, the sound of which will differ from the original sound.

Any opinions on how this can even be are welcome.


anton_stepichev OP
150 posts
 
@andy2
Using a single tone sinewave to understand how people perceive music is crazy.
Of course, this is crazy, but who here says otherwise?
anton_stepichev OP
150 posts
 
Maximum frequency that I hear now is 12500 Hz, and my father, at 88, hears only up to 6500hz!! At the same time, he freely orients himself in musical subtleties, distinguishes the directions of wires, and opinions about what sounds better or worse coincide with us.

There are many examples that natural musical values and audio anomalies are situated in middle range. We may cut LF and HF off accustically or electrically and still feel magic in music.

In addition to hearing we almost certanly have some sensitive "cells", which Millercarbon told about. I only think that the cells detect not acoustic vibrations but something else.
anton_stepichev OP
150 posts
 
@doogiehowser
That you have feelings that these cells exist is about as relevant that people believe the earth is flat, or that fairies exist. These anomalies all disappear when someone shines a light on them. Why is that?
I don't believe it, but I came to this logically. There is nothing in an acoustic signal that it would be impossible to measure or set up an experiment, all other things being equal. Hearing is also thoroughly studied.

From the standpoint of acoustics and electrics, there should be no such anomalies as an audible "reverse polarity of the wire". Physics also states that a digital copy should always sound the same as the original. And so on and so forth.

There are too many inconsistencies between physics and music. Hence the conclusions:
1-ordinary physics is not enough to describe the sound of music.
2-Hearing (perception of acoustic vibrations) is not all that we feel while listening to music.
anton_stepichev OP
150 posts
 
low bass is non-directional. Yet ... it always sounds like it is coming from some definite location.  

Each note of a real bass instrument has harmonics and we use them to determine the direction of the main tone.
anton_stepichev OP
150 posts
 
However, this thread from what I can tell is not at all a matter of physics, or electrical transmission, but one of psychology. Convincing yourself you heard a difference without doing the truly hard work of both isolating the changes you made, and removing your knowledge of the change a listening test demonstrates that your perceived sonic differences are no more than feelings, but do not evidence an actual physical change, or an actual change in what you heard (as opposed to what you thought you heard). That is a matter of psychology, not physics.
Yes, bias)) You have copied the meaning of the very first answer on this topic.

It is rather pointless to engage in a discussion such as this without some adequate effort to recreate the experiment and control for manufacturing variance and visual listening.

Then make some adequate effort and check the capabilities of the player, the directivity of a wire or whatever. Some people have already done this and are discussing the topic on the point. You are welcome.
anton_stepichev OP
150 posts
 
I can't take your claims seriously.
no one is keeping you here.
anton_stepichev OP
150 posts
 

doogiehowser, no one can prove anything to anyone here. Either you hear it yourself, or you don’t. If don’t then this branch is not for you.
anton_stepichev OP
150 posts
 
andy2
Using a single tone sinewave to understand how people perceive music is crazy.

OP
Of course, this is crazy, but who here says otherwise?

andy2
"The smallest step-change in amplitude that can be detected by ear is about 0.3dB for a pure tone. In more realistic situations it is 0.5 to 1.0dB'"
andy, your quote is about perceiving sounds, not music. Learn the difference.
anton_stepichev OP
150 posts
 
Parris, what is the Romex?
in any rate you woun’t listen LZ backwards). If we are about rock music, the directivity of acoustic environment parts will first affect the drive: the more accurately you orient the parts of the room walls, floor and sailing the less loudness you will have to make at the end to achieve nirvana. It is very rough assumption but a good mark to understand the difference.
More to discover