I don't pretend to know things I don't, a lot of this I don't really understand but I know enough to know BS when I read it. I guess I need to go back to the beginning is this about a regular copper wire a conductor or a semiconductor like silicon where the charge carriers can be controlled.
What do we hear when we change the direction of a wire?
Douglas Self wrote a devastating article about audio anomalies back in 1988. With all the necessary knowledge and measuring tools, he did not detect any supposedly audible changes in the electrical signal. Self and his colleagues were sure that they had proved the absence of anomalies in audio, but over the past 30 years, audio anomalies have not disappeared anywhere, at the same time the authority of science in the field of audio has increasingly become questioned. It's hard to believe, but science still cannot clearly answer the question of what electricity is and what sound is! (see article by A.J.Essien).
For your information: to make sure that no potentially audible changes in the electrical signal occur when we apply any "audio magic" to our gear, no super equipment is needed. The smallest step-change in amplitude that can be detected by ear is about 0.3dB for a pure tone. In more realistic situations it is 0.5 to 1.0dB'". This is about a 10% change. (Harris J.D.). At medium volume, the voltage amplitude at the output of the amplifier is approximately 10 volts, which means that the smallest audible difference in sound will be noticeable when the output voltage changes to 1 volt. Such an error is impossible not to notice even using a conventional voltmeter, but Self and his colleagues performed much more accurate measurements, including ones made directly on the music signal using Baxandall subtraction technique - they found no error even at this highest level.
As a result, we are faced with an apparently unsolvable problem: those of us who do not hear the sound of wires, relying on the authority of scientists, claim that audio anomalies are BS. However, people who confidently perceive this component of sound are forced to make another, the only possible conclusion in this situation: the electrical and acoustic signals contain some additional signal(s) that are still unknown to science, and which we perceive with a certain sixth sense.
If there are no electrical changes in the signal, then there are no acoustic changes, respectively, hearing does not participate in the perception of anomalies. What other options can there be?
Regards.
For your information: to make sure that no potentially audible changes in the electrical signal occur when we apply any "audio magic" to our gear, no super equipment is needed. The smallest step-change in amplitude that can be detected by ear is about 0.3dB for a pure tone. In more realistic situations it is 0.5 to 1.0dB'". This is about a 10% change. (Harris J.D.). At medium volume, the voltage amplitude at the output of the amplifier is approximately 10 volts, which means that the smallest audible difference in sound will be noticeable when the output voltage changes to 1 volt. Such an error is impossible not to notice even using a conventional voltmeter, but Self and his colleagues performed much more accurate measurements, including ones made directly on the music signal using Baxandall subtraction technique - they found no error even at this highest level.
As a result, we are faced with an apparently unsolvable problem: those of us who do not hear the sound of wires, relying on the authority of scientists, claim that audio anomalies are BS. However, people who confidently perceive this component of sound are forced to make another, the only possible conclusion in this situation: the electrical and acoustic signals contain some additional signal(s) that are still unknown to science, and which we perceive with a certain sixth sense.
If there are no electrical changes in the signal, then there are no acoustic changes, respectively, hearing does not participate in the perception of anomalies. What other options can there be?
Regards.
Showing 39 responses by djones51
What I hear is a bunch of nuts on a Russian website running in Vector circles of confusion.
|
What the crap does this mean???
Feel the musical quality in complete silence ?? |
" learned bias" like someone listening a musical instrument and learning how to hear it in his most subtle behaviour under the hand is not something to be put in the "placebo/ drawer... Everything is in the placebo drawer, everything to do with listening to music from where you listen to how and what you listen with is in the bias drawer. There is no one immune to bias, there is no getting around it, it's effects are ingrained into the human experience from conscious descions to subconscious desires. To use the words of one who seems to think he's a God above such mundane effects like bias are thinking like Children. |
1. The OP, anton, built a tube amp he used to check directionality of wire. 2. He said there was no electrical difference. 3. He said there was a difference in sound. 4. The question is how can there be a difference in sound, 5. His conclusions, there is an "unknown signal" in the wire and humans hear it with a "sixth sense ". There can be no other conclusion. 1. Me. Unless number 3. Of the test , sound difference , was conducted blind the test is flawed. 2. I am not attacking anton. 3. I am questioning his methodology for not using standard practice. |
No one, is going to be able to prove anything to a naysayer with measurements or blind tests. It has to be tried in ones own system. But they will never try... Unless it's a proper controlled blind test the whole thing is a waste of time. I don't do blind tests on everything I buy but I don't make blanket statements that something definitely sounds better, especially cables. I have preferences for the sound I like it's why I use DSP and room treatments. What constitutes a "good enough " system? I am also amused by the claim , "But they never try...". How else do you think bias has been shown to affect decisions unless it's been tried? |
I’m sorry I can’t come up with a logical reason why we should believe in a sixth sense or if there are unknown signals in wires. I don’t even know where to criticize the ... I hesitate to say logic? That’s your conclusion isn’t it? additional signal(s) that are still unknown to science, and which we perceive with a certain sixth sense. |
I have pointed out the error that led to the conclusion. However, people who confidently perceive this component of sound are forced to make another, the only possible conclusionThe error is your refusal to accept there could be another conclusion. Your error is accepting the belief of those who claim to "confidently perceive " there is a difference in the sound. In science you don't accept beliefs you test for proof. Until you acknowledge the fact that humans are easily fooled and have biases you'll never convince anyone outside those who already agree with your flawed methodology. |
That's fine believe whatever you want. But the fact of the matter is unless you heard a difference under controlled testing better than chance no one will accept your findings except audiophiles that already believe all sorts of nonsense. Go post this same question on ASR see what response you get from experts on electronics. |
There's nothing new in this thread. A guy built a tube amp with a gap in the circuit to place a wire and reverse the wire. He measured no difference but claims to hear a difference without accounting for confirmation bias. You want to have a deep philosophical conversation on new original ideas then do so and quit complaining about my response to his questions. |
I wasn’t referring to mysticism or biases but how our vision works. It’s like the blind spot everyone has in their eyes, the brain fills in the information, you don’t really "see" what’s in that blind spot but the illusion the brain created from the surrounding information. The eye sees a table the optic nerve passes information it receives to the brain, the brain recreates the table from the information. Evolution created an amazing Rube Goldberg contraption for our sight. Our brain is very good at guessing what your eye misses, it's how we survived the Savannah. |
It isn’t a joke. It’s how vision works. What you actually ’see" isn’t really the elephant but a recreation of the elephant formed by our brain. It doesn’t mean the elephant isn’t there. Our perception is the illusion not the object. It’s one reason why eyewitness accounts are so inaccurate. You know it’s more of that sciencey garbage. Could hearing be similar? Does our brain recreate what we hear from the information it receives from the auditory nerve? |
Maybe someday there will be new models that will help reveal the secret of the sound and direction of the wires. If these new models don't agree with your preconceptions and biases you'll dismiss them as well. |