volume vs presence


My amp is a bel canto s300 with a Dac3 on pmc tb2+ monitor speakers. I love this combination and find that it can be so deadly silky smooth that I am constantly turning up the volume probably to ear damaging levels as my ears are usually ringing after a session. But it doesn't sound loud at the time. This can't be good for my hearing.

I find I am turning up the volume of my system not to make it louder but to gain more presence and percussive attack. How do I listen at lower volumes without losing that presence? Do i need a bigger amp that provides more drive at lower levels. Do I need a good preamp? Do I need bigger speakers?

I am not sure but know people before me may have gone through all of this and would appreciate your advice. Thanks heaps,
jaffa_777
Jaffa: Did you set your SPL meter to "fast?" If so, the music you listen to is not that dynamic. 85 dB average is loud, but not BLARING. It shouldn't be causing ringing in your ears unless you're listening for hours at a time. Very dynamic music could have peaks going well into the 90s at listening position while averaging 80 dB or less.

Presence, dynamics and transients are all different, but somewhat related.

-Presence is the impression of how close or far something sounds. Closer microphoning will sound more present and have stronger transients.

-Dynamics are the the range of loud to soft.

-Transients are the very short spikes on the attack. These can be very, very loud, but so short that we don't hear them as LOUD. They give us the impact of live music. Even on the "fast" setting those $50 SPL meters can't respond fast enough to show how loud they really are.

Jaffa_777

>>I am reluctant for obvious reasons to go out and spend huge amounts of money on cables. I can't really see for the value for money in exotic cables sorry. Can you really hear that much difference for the money spent?>>

In my system? Easily. In my receiver driven mini HT bedroom system? Sure.

I'm with the poster who says Presence = They are here, you are there. I'd say there is more to it than just realizing info in the 2-6K freq range. Most any speaker out there can reproduce freqs from 2-6K.

My idea on presence or immediacy, or even palpable, equates more to the resolution and detail therein, rather than to be as simplistic as I read above and merely stating some portion of the range allows for it.

Maybe too, you meant to use some other word instead. I don't know.

Feeling the music comes from pressure. Pressure and resolution. Personally, I've never felt a pick come off a string, nor would i WANT TO. i CAN HEAR IT THOUGH AND THAT'S PART OF MY ARGUMENT FOR DEFINITION AND DETAIL being more important than merely reproducing part of the bandwidth. It's more HOW that part is rendered.

I feel you do not have sufficient enough detail and delineation presently in your system.... SPL aside.

Loud doesn't equate to presence.

I've heard systems which while at quite modest listening levels produced that "Can I have your autograph?" illusion. Trust me on that. No kidding.

Maybe somewhere out there is a system that uses zip wire for speaker cables, Radio Shack interconnects, and OEM power cables which can provide the aforementioned 3D illusion, but I doubt it seriously.

If you take some time to look through the various posted systems here, you should also note the cabling, conditioning, and room treatments. I think you'll see what I mean.

Exotic to me means super expensive. Like $2K & up for a pair of ICs, or a power cord... not 300 - 700 dollars. 'Course, even 300 can be hard to swallow if you haven't tried out anything like it before... so you wouldn't know... and you apparently don't. I do. I didn't at one point, but I did, and NOW I do know their impact and I know their importance.

System performance is the whole, global, effect it produces. AS it takes more for a race car to go fast than simply a great engine, so too does a stereo system need all it's areas addressed to be a great performer.

So, if you want to feel the music, go for loud... if you want to gain the illusion you are there or they are in your room, it's only going to happen when your rig is quite resolute, defined, and capable of capturing all the audio cues in the recording... and as well, the recording itself will play a big part.

Smooth, ain't gonna do it. Been there. Done that.

The key, if there even is one, is too much of a good thing is indeed, too much. Too much articulation in a rig can come off as sterile or analytical, and quickly fatiguing. Briefly though it can be stunning. Finding that line in between those two results is the ticket and accounts alone for how eleusive it can be to achieve.

I don't mean to sound condescending but keeping close to a budget, or constrained by one will prevent many from attaining more than just good to great sounding systems. I know this all too well. It's taken me 3 rigs, and nearly 7 years to get where I'm at today... for someone else, it would take the time to write the check.

It will always come to this: Just how much do you want how much? Affordability only means more or less time needed, to do it. I get the notion you want it, so if you keep an open mind as to the whole of the affair here, you'll be well served. If not, it will be a more arduous and lengthy journey.

Everything matters... not just the stuff we can plug into the wall. hell, even the walls matter.

Check out the Cable Company and try renting some of the stuff from them... it will be an ear opening event... I guarantee!
Blindjim, thanks for your open, detailed and frank response. No I don't have the check book handy, nor the credit card. My ears want the best but my wallet will take years to afford it. As you said, fate has bitten me and it looks like I am heading down this path. I am a music lover first, a musician second, and a stereophile last. Its not about the gear for me, its just the music.

Its good to talk to people who have been their too. So how far does the rabbit hole go? Thats the feeling I am getting!

I second OjGalli's excellent posts - the only way 85 db SPL average would cause ringing is if it is continuous loud such as Metallica or other badly compressed stuff. If teh music has dynamic range then 85 db should not cause ringing unless you haave an auditory problem and already have damaged your ears....
Jaffa_777

Then we are more alike than different. I was a musician... playing horns for some years. Do love music. Not an aduiophile though... as I don't think I meet some of the criteria 100%.

So it'll merely take you time, as it has me.

I also think maybe... just maybe... your room is playing a part in that irritating issue following listening sessions... especially if it's empty, or scantily adorned, as there'll be plenty of reflections.

Are there echoes? Slap your hands together and listen for the repeats.... True too, 80db or around there isn't sufficient pressure levels to harm most peoples hearing.

Lots of threads here about handling those issues on the cheap which are quite effective and not hard to do.

I think the important thing is that you simply do what you can when you can... and as much as possible enjoy the music as often as possible.

At some point, now or after you go get them better speakers, do check out power cords as that aspect alone can really alter and/or improve the outcome of your components performance results.

Hope things work out for you sooner than things did for me.