Turntables New vs Used

Many responders to Gon threads will be basically 2nd user enthusiasts, having come at the thread site through the for sale section. I am no exception and my whole system is 2nd user and ex dem. Responders have pointed out the problems with used turntables, well all items you might buy have problems. Top of the list is Cartridges of course, where any prior use makes a purchase questionable. That did'nt stop me buying a Koetsu Rosewood Signature and being thrilled with the purchase and saving(about 1/3 of the cost of a new unit in the UK). We are, or should be realistic about the risks of buying 2nd hand, but have calculated the saving is worth the risk.
Turntables should be a relatively safe bet, but being mechanical, I would agree the risk is in transport. It's easier in the UK, but I have always collected mine. To add my experience, I would not go for a Linn, which I used for years. IMHO, an old design off the current pace. There is an upgrade path, Cirkus, Lingo, trampoline etc, but it's expensive. To get the best out of them, they do need rebalancing periodically. even if not disturbed.
I would agree with many of the suggestions of tables to consider, but some other UK ones are not highlighted. Avid is a great company, with fine sounding, well engineered, fit and forget tables, again with a potential upgrade path. My own final choice is Origin Live, a Resolution with Illustrious arm. I know you can get better, but at what price. In the UK at least they are hard to beat value wise. I am aware the current Dollar rate makes UK/European kit very expensive in the US, so Origin Live is less of a bargain. For Classical gear, remember the rim drive Garrard 301 and 401, if they are available in the US, if replinthed they make an unbeatable sound, with the best base you may hear from vinyl.

Dear Ferrari: +++++ " it is difficult to reason a better product than the Simon Yorke S 7. " +++++

The first question that comes to my mind is: Why?

If we take the TTs that are out there we can find that many of them are really an excellent ones like the S7: Brinckman, Basis, Walker, SME, Acoustic Signature, Galibier, Pluto, Verdier, Micro Seiki, Avid, Transrotor, etc... and if we try to compare it that will be a very hard task for any one can tell us which is the real winner.

I think that at this performance TT levels there is no absolut winner, because this depends on many issues like: with what tonearm/cartridge combination?, with what kind of music?, in which audio system?, in which room?, with which quality " ears " ?, etc,.......

We can try to do a comparation of the TT only, asking for: build quality, rumble, wow and flutter, speed accuracy, vibration control, etc... and find a measurements winner TT.
Ferrari, your statement about the S7 is in reference to what or which are the why's for your statement.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Thanx for your comments on my beloved H/K T60.
If, however, I choose to retire my T60, should I buy a VPI Scout/Scoutmaster/Superscoutmaster, a Rega 9, Sota, or Nottingham? Or, do you suggest something else?
I like the Rega 9 and the Rega tonearm.
It is very basic looking, like my T60, and isn't too heavy.
I also am considering a better cartridge than my $300 Grado Platinum.

All gear used, unless it's video.

Though I am a great fan of used current and vintage turntables - I have quite a few, DD, belt-drive and idler-wheel drive - and can't argue with the statement "For what one pays in this category,one can find true stellar turntables in the used market", there are many things wrong with the whole premise of this thread. First of all, issues of sound quality aside, Project and Music Hall offer new budget turntables, which the rest have abandoned, including now Rega, which I hear is phasing out the P2 (unless I hear wrong), and the future of audio rests on newbies buying new budget turntables. Those just entering mostly are not DIYers and want new turntables with a guarantee they can rely on: Project and Music Hall fulfill this need. I constantly read about the impending demise of the High End and dwindling numbers of audiophiles, but if we make no effort to induct new members into the audiophile community by offering exciting new budget stars, then we must rely instead on the few surviving and ageing audiophiles, which appears to be happening, as evidenced by more and more expensive exclusive equipment, obviously aimed at a very small portion of the population. We need companies like Project, Music Hall, Rotel and NAD (the list seems to be dwindling, Creek integrateds now sell for $1500 CAD these days!) to sustain interest and appeal to newbies.

But then there is the following statement which no one has challenged: "To be candid there is no black art or voodoo science in turntable design. Physics and Geometry are basic law and are absolute with debate not being possible." Debate not being possible?! This is a strong statement: Clearaudio uses extreme mass and several motors to create high torque and momentum to spin that massive platter, while Nottingham uses low-torque motors. Direct-drive 'tables use a completeley different approach to the problem, as do the idler-wheel drives you omitted. Some believe mass stores energy and this muddies timing, and so design lower-mass turntables which are extremely musical, while some believe high mass overrides speeed instablities and design mass monsters which are again very musical. Some believe acrylic is superior to metal and design musical turntables, while other believe the reverse and design metal turntables which are musical. Some believe in suspensions while others shun them. Some like myself have no faith whatsoever in current speed measurements and rumble figures, while most have complete faith in them. Some believe in rigidity uber alles while others eschew rigidity. Given that ALL these various engineering philosophies can lead to excellent results or questionable results, then the statement "physics and geometry are basic law and are absolute" is meaningless, since we don't know enough about them to be able to come up with AN answer, just different philosophies and approaches for different results, the end results often being achieved by chance without a full understanding of what led to a particular success. Given our state of ignorance (and continuing debate), then indeed record player design is a black art, which often is attributable more to good instincts than a clear understanding of what is going on. This is just like the debate on amplification in the '80s, when some believed all meaningful measurements had been made, all was understood, and all you had to do was design for spectacular measurements. Then, with the re-emergence of tubes as a serious segment of products, which in many cases measured horribly but evidently sounded excellent (while certain pieces which measured spectacularly sounded horrible), this philosphy was abandoned and it was understood that we had no full understanding. Back to the Black Arts, or, good instincts, or chance assemblage of materials, design philosophy, and execution, which is art. Spinning the platter at a steady 33 1/3 has ALWAYS been understood, though more difficult to achieve at a budget.

Occasionally, something comes along which violates everything we think we know (like the RS Labs tonearm, or the Well Tempered turntable when it first came out), and this is part of the excitement of audio, and helps generate interest and, yes, sales. We NEED challenges to the status quo to keep the ball rolling.

Simon Yorke's piece is laudable from many points of view, and I agree with much of it, but it also reads like a justification of high prices and a sales pitch, a mixture of philosophy and public relations. If we were to stick to it to the letter, then there would be no future for serious audio as a hobby, a source of quality reproduction for those who want to spend hundreds of dollars to test the waters (or are tempted into becoming audiophiles in the first place by the entry-level price), as is understandable and sensible, and not thousands of dollars. Simon Yorke's turntables may be the ulitmate aim of many (but not all) audiophiles, but those audiophiles are in most cases inducted into the brotherhood by such companies as Project, while so many companies abandon budding audiophiles and the whole concept of entry-level quality.

Finally, I can't comment on the comparison between the Regas and the Projects or Music Halls, as I haven't heard a Music Hall, or directly compared a Project which I have heard to a Rega, but aside from the fellow who also owns a Rega and so obviously agrees with you, I would at least question your judgment of their relative merits and not blindly accept it: I will do the comparison myself some day and report on it, many are enamoured of both these companies' products, which I remind you again are offering true budget items and so are the hope of serious audio's, specifically vinyl's, future, if it has one.