TONEARM DAMPING : DAMPED OR NOT ? ? USELESS ? ? WELCOMED ? ?

Dear @bukanona @stringreen  FRIENDS: 

"  As I do have this Jelco 750EB with "top cup" - I can say that if not damped it's rather inferior with high compliance cartridges (no silicon oil in cup)

With heavyweights/low compliance like SPU difference isn't so obvious, it takes time to understand that damping (silicon oil in cup) is better.

With high compliance difference is night and day. "

Very important and critical  use of the key in those statements:

"  it takes time to understand that damping (silicon oil ...) is better.  ""

Damping always will works is we give its time to settle down in our ears/brain and important our each one attitude: we have to be willing to test it with out earlier judgements.

R.

Dear @lewm  : about caps everything was in the long " run " time, no issue because of that.  I know exactly what you mean and I do not made the change of caps in speakers after the electronics but the other way around.

The 20.6's are coupled by cap at its input and several years ago, when I added my two Velodyne's, I took advantage of that input cap to made there the high pass filter ( along the amp input resistor. ) to the main speakers signal been untouchable by an external high pass electronic crossover.
 
In that way the signal to the main speakers and to the subwoofers goes directly from my Phonolinepreamp outputs ! !

No I don't tryed those Russian silver caps but I tryed the expensive Duelund silver ones: Wima outperformed too.

In the caps thread are wider explanations of what to do to go with Wima/Kemet caps.

R.

@cleeds  : I said we can use it and can works for a test and if we don`t like it then we can take out with no single trouble and with no sign in the arm wand that there was that electrical tape.

Why such big deal?  my command? you certainly are joking because I don't command to any one of you and certainly not cleeds that not even test it with the ASK by Sumiko.

R.

Dear @antinn : great Audio article. I started to read Audio in 1979 along Stereo Review and High Fidelity magazynes and with out any single doubt Audio was the best even against any today audio magazynes.
Pisha writer and reviewer down there has an alignment cartridge/tonearm solution similar to Löfgren A and almost no one knows about him.
Was in Audio where for the very first time appeared the wholeLöfgren geometry alignment and the whys about and that was many many years ago.

Btw, here another first hand experience with that " lifeless " issue and its true meaning:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/best-harmless-signatureless-speakers-capacitors/post?postid=1...

That thread was and is one of the best and deep audio lessons through my audio life because I started it to find out the best " boutique " caps for my speakers and by my self I learned there by my self too that the cheap Wima, Kemet or Vishay ones are really the ONES. I owned Duelund, Mundorf, Sonicraft, V-caps, Jantzen and many more and nothing compares against what I stated in that thread.

I tested those humble caps, during the thread time,  in my speakers and in a really critical electronics position: rigth at the input of my 20.6 ML monoblocks where I was using teflon V-caps CU very good cap and extremely expensive and things are that the Wima outperformed even that in that input amp position the audio signal goes complete/all the frequency rangepass through.

In the other side, platter mat is way critical and the best I experienced ( and I owned/own " hundred " of mats. ) still is the original Sota that after less than 100 units were out of production and the " clone " was an inferior one.
I use it with the Sota reflex clamp and with the Basis that’s reflex too. As a fact , aswith mats, I owned/own several clamps that it’s a necessity/must in any TT.

With mat/clamp and with out is like day and nigth.

R.

Dear @cleeds : " Wow! That’s electrical tape. I’d never put gooey sticky electrical tape on a pickup arm. "

Your statement disappoint me because I know you are way better than that.

The issue is not if it is electrical tape or what ever, the issue is that any tonearm arm wand need it that kind of damping that always ( no matters what. ) gives you a better quality level performance to what you are listening if your room/system has the quality resolution need it for.

"" If my arm needed that, I’d dump it and buy a proper arm. ""

then you have to give up/dump on analog/LP alternative because all tonearms need it ! !

Do it a favor to us and post areal contribution in the thread that really can helps to all of us on the thread subjects. Welcomed.

And do it your self a favor and test the Analog Survival Kit by Sumiko designed expressely for that purpose or any kind of tape you like even teflon tape can works very good too.

R.

Dear @neonknight  and FRIENDS :  its easy to get the paddle too deep into the reservoir and the end result is a lifeless sound that is lacking harmonic texture and decay........... But a light touch of the paddle into the silicone results in improved tracking ""

First that " LIFELESS " issue. I really have " thousands " of first hand experiences with almost any kind of damping in almost all the room/system and certainly I detected sevarl times that " lifeless or dullness " kind of sound after changes in damping and even after made changes for better audio items in the system. Let me explain about:

through those experiences I learned that transducers, as speakers and cartridges, are not only the ones that needs damping but that are way sensible to any kind of damping, the transducers always shows a response to damping.

Loudspeakers: really sensitive audio item and for extreme good reasons designers try that the " takls " boxes been as inert as the " dead silence ".
We can listen, example , Magico ones and even listening at over 95dbs SPL at seat position if we touch the box you can " feel " almost nothing. What " speaks " in the Magico or YG are the drivers as always should be but not always achieved.

My speakers are really old design and when I learned through the years I started to damp it in several ways and always was and is for the better:
first it has " three hands " ( internally ) of a insulation/antivibrational treatment ( like a white paint. I can't remember the ingredients. ) from Acoustical Magic Company ( it works marvelous ) inside all the box , to do that I had to take out all the speaker drivers including the internal wires and croosovers.
Second I change the internal damping glass fiber by 10kg ( each speaker ) of long hair 100% virgin wool and change the fabric cloth of the grille for a " transparent one ".
Third: Both speakers have at the box external rear-center the Antiresonant Vibration System by MICROSCAN model TM-8 that works from 20hz to 1.5Khz.
Finally: I take out the crossover ( now is external ) and change all the parts: resistors ( Powertron by Vishay. ), all silver air core solid ribbon ( 5.5 cms. of pure silver. Almost 2kg. of silver in the bigest one. ) Alpha-Core inductors , WIMA FKP 1 and KEMET caps in the crossover, the speakers cables goes soldered directly to the crossover parts. This speaker crossover is tri-hard-wired from the amps output to the 3-way crossover parts and speaker drivers.

All those was and is for damping and additional to that at the external box top " plate " I put 20kg of dead weigth.
This same kind of added weigth damping I do it with both subwoofers where have 40kg. dead weigth at its box top plate.

CARTRIDGES: well there is not cartridge as a stand alone audio item cartridge and tonearm is one and only one audio item and here damping is need it no matters what and for very good reasons:

this is a Nicola Tesla statement that we can use it in this thread:

" If you want to find the secrets in the Universe,thinks in terms of Energy, Frequency and VIBRATIONS. "

I own or owned almost any cartridge designed: LOMC, MM, MI, Electrostatic, Starin Gaugage, etc.,etc, with all kind of compliance/weigth combinations with all kind of cantilever materials/stylus tip shapes and in all kind of cartridge body materials and at the same time I own or owned almost all designed tonearms: vintage, today, unipivots, LT or gimball ones builded with all materials you can imagine and some very well damped and other not well damped and many in between these extremes.

The first top tonearm with paddle I owned was the great Micro Seiki MAX-282/237 that comes with 3 different removable arm wands and with 2 different silicon viscosity for the paddle and with a list which viscosity level silicon mated with which cartridges.

I used for several months with out the damp silicon paddle and one day I decided to use it and what I listened just did not like me.

What listened I in those old times trhough it?, exactly what neonknight posted: LIFELESS and DULL sound.
I can't listened any more and forgoted about the dampening issue, for me was not only not need it but gone against the listening experiences.
Same experience with my Audiocraft tonearm but here I had to use the oil at the bearing cup due that this unipivot design just need it but if I use a little higher down there MUSIC will sound: lifeless and dull.

Through the years my room/system improved a lot tilll today extremely high resolution one and through all those years I learned a lot too of overall home MUSIC Audio reproduction and one issue I learned is the need of damping in the whole analog rig it does not matters if the cartridge/tonearm combination resonance frequency is 10hz.

My first lessons about changes/damping for the better where when in the started tests of those changes that lifeless appeared and was when I changed IC cables and what I did it was not to come back to the original cables but I gave TIME to the new sound through more listening sessions because even in my first reaction was that the SPLs ( with out touching the volume attenuator. ) goes down !

What I learned there and thank's to my self developed test evaluation process was that I not even losted SPL but what I losted and that was the " culprit " of that LIFELESS were the distortion levels that gone way lower and from the " life " came: false life because was for the higher distortion levels.
This kind of experience repeated in my audio life in my system and other gentlemans systems till today. So that LIFELESS dos not exist if what we do is really an improvement.

Here at Agon a well know member @halcro years agoposted in a thread that using the after market AT vacuum hold down LP as a platter mat makes the sound Lifeless and dull what certainly it does not happens that way because I still own at least 2 of those AT items and makes an improvement due not only its damping effect but because flatness characteristic in almost any LP.

@ebm  answer my question when posted:

""  When the sound closes down then it is to much damping.When i had tonearms with damping trow i used as little fluid just so it touched the paddle. ""

I don't agree with him if what he try to says is that that " sound closes down " means something as " lifeless/dullness ".

All our room/systems have different quality level performance and different resolution levels, so what you can hear maybe other gentleman can't do it or listened in way different manner.

In some way I agree that the silicon damping issue is a " test and error " subject.

In my first hand experiences higher damping levels the better not lower as " possible " as some of you posted.
Silicon dampinghigh  levels always is welcomed till impedes the natural tonearm vertical/horizontal movements.

Please do it a favor and look this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_OUkLbSs24  ( at minute: 2.18. )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYE67fVny4c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMG59yxJGfs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLmpkPjkozs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuCdsyCWmt8&app=desktop  ( at the begining few seconds. )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4_GYfPZfq0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbQugDDaemQ


We can see several things, first of them is the way very hard task the stylus tip has to ride those tortuose groove modulations, cartridge/tonearm job should be really fenomenal for been faithful to the groove modulations information recorded there the other thing we can see is that the stylus tip ridding is almost " out of its control " almost at " random " as the self cartridge tracking habilities permits it.

And it's these critical microscopic out of control stylus tip movements the ones that must and should be " tamed " to lower the developed distortions/to lower the additional non recorded movements and for the stylus tip pick up a higher true groove modulations.
The developed forces down there are almost imposible to " tame " it the record speed/spin and inertia movements along those forces makes the silicon damping paddle the only option to improve that traking and at a result we will has better quality level performance.

All those info here is only my opinion and if you have a better solution to lower those almost " out of control " movements then please share with us
. For my part I'm always willing to change for something better in any audio subject.

Btw, @tomic601  is rigth when posted: 

"  Everything is a bell  "

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @totem395  : Normally I don't trust in Korf and for good reasons. You can read/see here why:

http://korfaudio.com/blog68

first there used one of the more resonances/develops vibrations TTs designs and second his knowledge levels in that matching subject is to low about cartridges because he took the 103 compliance figure that in reality it's not that but higher because the spec is measured with japanese parameter that is way different in Europe or America continents.

For me has no value that information but is more a mix-up one.

R.

Dear @yeti42  : Unipivot tonearm designs are really sensitive and way unstable.

I think that with your Aro you can get way better quality sound using the " tape " around its arm wand. This is a must test you need to do it.

This other tape can helps you:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/3M-Scotch-Super-33-3-4-in-x-66-ft-Electrical-Tape-6132-BA-10/100073402

this is a streched tape and this characteristc is  the one that works the best. Very easy no take out with out any damage/sign into de arm wand.

R.

Dear @jjss49  : "  maybe my mind is imagining that... but i do believe the sq difference is there...""

Certainly is not your imagination, it's a fact. Adequated tonearm damping always improves quality level performance in any cartridge signal we are listening.

R.

Dear @bdp24  : No, it does not exist yet any other tonearm in the market as the Max great idea. Good that you own it from some years now because you know for sure what I'm talking with the critical tonearm damping subject.

R.

Dear @ebm  : "   If you damp use as little as possible...""

good point but let me ask: how do you determine that " as little as possible " ? it can depends of which kind of damp we want to use.

When can we know that it's enough damping or that we need more or less damping with that specific cartridge/tonearm combination?

R.

Dear @antinn  : really good articles the ones you linked even if the Audio one premise is: " perfect cartridge ".

@lewm  your FR ansd Acutex resonates at 4hz, spot on for warps and other bass anomalies but you lovwe it.

I understand the FR " fascination " because I still own it but I do not use any more as a fact I don't like any more heavy mass tonearms. In those articles we can see are not good enough.

R.

Dear @millercarbon  and friends : " Of course they need to be damped. The question is in what way? And how much? "

Totally in agreement. Yes, one way or other tonearms must be damped.

 As a fact any analog rig item and the whole room/system needs always some kind of damping even electronics at its circuit boards passive and active parts, same for loudspeakers but at the analog rig and due that is almost a mechanical " system " the damping down there is need it no matters what.

Room/systems can't avoid its ( any kind. ) developed resonances/vibrations that per sé always degrades the audio signal.

Resonances/vibrations is the true DEVIL that impedes to have better quality level listening experiences in any room/audio system and we can't avoid/disappears totally, the only alternative is to lower the levels of those resonances/frequencies and this can be achieved using different dampening solutions.

In what way? ( example in room ): acoustic treatment as bass traps, acoustic panels and difussors.

How much?, this is a really hard to say/answer because depends on many factors.

 It's not only the need or not to damp the tonearm but to take in count that tonearm is part of the analog rig because is mounted/attached to a TT that is seated ( normally ) in a damped plattform but some times it's not over that kind of plattforms and things about goes with higher resonances/vibrations developed around it.

I think that we need to analize the complete analog rig to decide that " how much ".

 The TT it self is a resonance/vibration source always through its motor, plinth, platter, bearing and arm board.

 One way or the other we need to take care that the whole TT be good damped and after that we can focus in the cartridge/tonearm damping and here exist variables that we have to take in count to define the damping issue: we need to own a good platter mat, A PLATTER/lp CLAMP, TO KNOW THE CARTRIDGE SELF TRACKING HABILITIES ( NOT ONLY ITS COMPLIANCE ), cartridge/tonearm resonance frequency, how good is damped the cartridge it self ( example the AT ART1 has a titanium body and has a rubber body cover at the below plate. ),   obviously how well is damped the tonearm design and how good is the tonearm bearing and if it's an unipivot desing or gimball type or LT, how many play hours has the cartridge stylus tip, SPL usually we listen the LPs.

All those " characteristics " and several others ( like an accurated cartridge/tonearm alignment set up. ) will condition what we can do about and that through several controled listening tests can confirm that " how much " and where.

As we can see not an easy task and our music/sound trained ears levels and room/siytem resolution will have the final decision with each cartridge/tonearm combination.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @noromance : the Jelco tonearms I know came/comes with oil damping system at the " top cup " of the pivot. Models SA and this new one too:

https://audiosensibility.com/Store/us_store.htm#!/Jelco-TS-550S-MKII-9-Tonearm-***-New-***/p/1893469...

R.

Dear @noromance : Well, your Jelco tonearms are silicon damped by design and if you test that wrap around the arm wand your listening experiences will be even better.

No one can lost nothing with the arm wand wrap tape because if we don’t like then we just take out.

R.

Dear @millercarbon : I don't know if you remember that many years ago Sumiko marketed the Analog Survival Kit that is a great analog accesory.  It uses as a wrap around the tonearm wand in helicoidal way.

Well, any one of us can use something similar even in the Townshend tonearm, here materials that could help about but you could find out even other material alternatives
. It's a must to do/test in any non-damped or not well damped tonearm as the FR/SAEC and the like:

https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/company-us/all-3m-products/~/3M-Vibration-Damping-Tape-434/?N=5002385+32...

https://www.amazon.com/-/es/Sorbothane-Strip-1-tira-0236225-50/dp/B00B84GVBE/ref=rtpb_3/262-9954503-...

https://www.amazon.com/-/es/3M-2552-adhesiva-amortiguaci%C3%B3n-acr%C3%ADlico/dp/B007Y7CNA2/ref=rtpb...

Any one can be sure that will have a difference for the better.

Obviously that we need to make a tiny VTF change. Effective mass is almost with no change so we have not to worry about the tonearm/cartridge frequency resonance level.


R.