A trusted friend with Contrivas told me his experiences when he went to the StillPoints Component Stands. I did the comparison between the Ultimate feet and the Component Stand. |
Well I got my first chance to hear the Tidals with Tidal electronics at the RMAF. On Sunday, the sound was extraordinarily good on the Piano Diaceras. These thrilling realism of the diamond tweeter was there and the bottom end was quite good.
By Sunday, this was one of the top three rooms at the RMAF. |
Fcrowder, I would have said that until Sunday as I would have said about Tidal at the last CES and RMAF. At this RMAF in MHO it was among the top three. |
I should make it clear that I am not diminishing the Ypsilon electronics in saying that the Tidals with their electronics were one of the best sounding rooms. I bought my speakers largely on the basis of what they sounded like with the excellent Ypsilon amps. I can afford neither of these fine products but would love to have either. |
Kw13, I assume you mean the Klipsch Scalas. I had their corner horns in the late '60s, but my room left a hole in the center. I thought about the La Scalas, but they didn't have the bass. I loved the Klipsch speed and efficiency. I could use SETs on them. |
Bvdiman, I suspect you are right. Are they still about $30k? If so, the Piano DiaCeras are more expensive at $37,690 but certainly have a better top end. |
Calloway, since I am using a Sander Audio Magtech stereo amp that puts out 900 watts into 4 ohms and can say the Contrivas can also take much power. |
Argyro, I wish I had been there. I have been eying the Sovereign Glory. |
Calloway, well they must be extraordinary. I think that I would look into the Ypsilon Aelius monoblocks before I bought the Chalice monoblocks. The Aeliuss are "only" $34k. |
Pa10in, I still remember that shocking moment at the 2009 RMAF when I heard the Tidal Contriva Discera SE with but three days of breakin and run with the Ypsilon amps and preamps. It was the first time that I heard realism from a speaker!
As you say they are very neutral but nevertheless sweet. Brass is real, being both ripe and listenable.
I am now nearly a year with mine, and continue to optimize them. I have found them very revealing of all that comes before them, making critical evaluations of components quite easy. This includes how they are isolated from the floor.
I think you will be even happier in the future. |
Mike, I hope to listen to the Sovereign soon, but I do have the X9 version of the H-Cat amp. Its strength has always been a holographic soundstage and the new version is shocking. It only has three weeks breakin on it, so it is likely to get better yet.
I have also put Synergistic Research Basik bass modules in front of my speakers which has greatly improved their bass response. I have the Zu Method subwoofer also with a bass module in front of it.
I'm still thrilled each night by the music reproduction that I am getting. |
Alectiong, the last RMAF was the first time I have heard the Tidal electronics on their speakers, the Piano Disceras. On the last day of RMAF, I was pretty impressed with the sound, but it was still far short of what I had heard a year earlier using the Ypsilon amps on the Contriva Discera SEs.
I would dearly love to be able to compare the Sovereign, Tidal, Ypsilon, and Chalice electronics with my H-Cat electronic on the Contrivas. That seems unlikely to ever happen. |
Alectiong, initially it was the prototype tube amps. But was the Aelius monoblocks. I suspect that the Aeliuses are better.
Charles1dad, I agree, but one does like to hear other's sincere opinions, since none of us will have the luxury of hearing all these amps together. |
Morganmadden, which model did you get? Send a picture. This thread has been very quiet recently. Congratulations! I certainly love my Contriva Discera SEs.
I might add, that I have added a Zu Method subwoofer to my system and last night hear what it sounded like without it. Obviously the bass was less profound but the soundstage was not as good. I remember discussions long ago about turning down the tweeters if you really did not have deep bass in your system.
I love the addition whatever might explain this phenomenon. |
Argyro, it is a special order Hubble. This is all I know other than the fact that it very substantial and has only brass and bakelite. I got it with a Sound Application SA-1 for review. I also know that it far surpasses anything else I have heard. |
Kclone, since you quantified this with sound pressure readings, I decided to check my listening levels with a Radio Shack sound pressure meter.
I played several recordings of big band jazz cuts and symphonic cuts with what for me is loud levels. I set the RS meter on C reading and fast and in the 90 db range. I did get some peaks over 90 db, but overall the meter stayed in the minus range.
I think I am playing at what I judge to be the normal level where I up close to the stage.
I think the Tidal are very revealing of what comes before them, but I think my system is losing nothing at louder levels. |
Argyro and Kclone, if we are purely talking about actual SPLs, which I hope, the human ear can be ruled out. If we are talking about what we hear, all bets are off. |
Kclone, the RS meter's A and C setting "The weighting switch allows for switching between the standard 'A' and 'C' weightings. Choosing the 'C' weighting will make the meter respond uniformly over the frequency range from 32 - 10,000 Hz, and the 'A' weighting will make the meter more sensitive to frequencies in the range 500-10,000 Hz."
I did try both but found little difference. I would think C is the widest and is the normal listening range. |
I am toed in at exactly 15ºs which intersects the center line just behind me. I noticed that the Sunrays at CES were also at about 15ºs.
It is the realism of the sound stage that strikes me as enhanced with the "right" toe in.
There are at least one pair of Sunrays and one pair of Contriva Diacera SEs for sale, which surprises me. |
I just noticed that Ozy is selling his Tidal T1s for personal reasons. |
Maxx1973, me too. Only once in my life at a show did I hear a speaker that awed me. It was the Contriva Discera SEs with Ypsilon electronics. Got the speaker, next the electronics |
Hi, guys, There is a new product line being imported to the US-B.M.C. I have read translated reviews of the dac, cd player, and photo. They also have amplifiers, which is my main interest. Have any of you in Europe heard these products? And if so, where would you rank them? |
Karelfd, there is a US importer now, and given that these units are in stock, I expect to be able to hear them in not too long. The European reviews are certainly strong, but I have heard nothing about the amps other than hearsay. Bang for buck seems to be great, but I will soon hear. |
Ciro71, I have never been tempted by any Wilson and only one Magico, the V3. Nothing has ever bitten me like the Contrivas on Ypsilon amps. Will something better come along? Who knows; I had concluded that all speakers are compromises and your only choice was which ones you tolerate and for how long. I went from compression drivers to Klipshorns to Infinity Servostats to KLM model 9, to compression drivers in Altecs to Avantgarde Duos to Trios to Beauhorns, to Accapella to Tidals. i think I missed several others in this journey.
There are several Tidals for sale now as demos or used. Buy one! |
Calloway, both the shorting wires and the port plugs are to deal with some rooms. I tried both but have a large room so YMMV, but by all means try removing them. |
Quanmer,
Take the plugs out of the ports in back and don't use the shorting plugs, especially don't use them between the binding posts. There are unmarked plugins on the back of the speaker for them, but don't use them. I don't expect you are talking about the speaker stands.
I have installed StillPoints Ultra Stainless Steel feet under my Contrivas with enormous improvement. Toe in for me is about 15ºs. Unless you bought a used pair, breakin is about 300 hours. |
You can check out my StereoTimes review and see a picture of them under the Contrivas.
They are pricy. I know of several dealers, but don't know about any discounts. You would need eight of them. |
Quanmer, yes, you need M8s to go into the Contrivas and 1/4" 20s for the Ultras. StillPoints has them. There are many threaded holes on the bottom of the Contrivas. I used those closest to the corners of the speakers. I don't know whether it makes any difference, but it gives the widest stance for greatest stability. Of course, you need to take the Tidal provided stand off. There is a centered threader hole in the back of the speakers so you could save some money putting three Ultras under each speaker. I was told, however, that four sounds better. I have tried this under my amp. Four do sound better than three. I have a real clue as to why-greater isolation I guess.
I don't know whether StillPoints has representation in Taiwan. |
Quanmer, I am concerned about where you are attempting to install the shorting wires. They do not go between the binding posts!!! You will see two small holes below the binding posts. You would short your amp were you to put them across the binding posts. |
Bvdiman, personally I think the shorting wires rob the realism that caused me to buy the Tidals. I must say also that I use a Zu Method super fast subwoofer with my system along with a Synergistic Research Base Station in front of it as well as the two Contrivas. This made the bass the best I have ever heard, at least in my large room.
I know full well that these adjustments are provided to adjust to individual rooms and that personal experiences cannot really be shared. |
Go to the Munich show. You could probably hear a comparison. |
Quanmer, I really have little experience on the Argento cables, having only heard them only at CES.
I have extensive experience with the top Synergistic Research and now the Exemplar Portals. So unless you have heard these, I have little to add to this. I certainly thought that at the last CES on Sunday, the Sunrays sounded excellent. I don't believe that the Argentos are charged, as such I would not really be interested as I have found charged cables far superior, even in my low RFI environment. |
Bvdiman, what is the size of your room? What room treatments do you have? What Tidal speakers do you have?
I have an 18 x 26 x 11.5' room with extensive Syn. Res. ARTs treatment and the Contriva Discera SEs. As I said, I have the discontinued Zu Method subwoofer. It is crossovered and about 30 Hz and at a very low level output.
I am asking as your results are so at odds with mine. |
I was wondering how long it would take for this thread to devolve into the mine is bigger than yours nonsense. There is no consensus about anything in audio. Only a full-blown GoTo five way compression driver system ever impressed me more than the Tidals, especially with Ypsilon electronics. Even then it did not image nearly as well and occupies an enormous space. Again, YMMV. |
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I have not heard a comparison, but the sweetness of the top end on the Diacera SEs is one of its strong points. After hearing it after three days of breakin at the '09 Rocky Mountain Audio Fest, there was no question in my mind; I had to have this speaker. It was not until the '11 CES that I heard the Sunrays sound as good as the Diaceras and then only on the last day.
In reality none of us can convince you to go for the Diaceras. It is their sound that would have to convince you, not our words. Many have assured me that the Sunrays are superior to the Diaceras, but that is not what I hear. |
Argyro, I don't understand why you would say that. There are many reasons why equipment at shows doesn't sound its best, especially large speakers in too small rooms. Nevertheless, you may hear differently, but that matters little to me. There are several Sunrays available in the US for $65k, but I have no interest in them. In part this is my being tired of optimizing speakers to my room and equipment. |
Geopolitis, frankly all of that is irrelevant for me. I don't know what is near-field for you but I the Contrivas are ten feet apart and I listen to them about ten feet from both. My room is well treated so I have no temptation to be closer.
Bear in mind that I am saying only that the Contriva diacera SEs at the RMAF after three days of breakin and on Ypsilon electronics sounded better than any of the Sunrays I have heard until the last day at this years CES being run with Bridge Audio electronics. That is my opinion, which of course, is all that matters. I am very happy with my Contrivas, but would never make your statement, as I think in all cases, that many factors affect what people hear. |
Macceear, since member Wiebe has not added to this, can you please tell us more about the Zilplex? |
Maceear, I guess it was three Rocky Mountain Audio Fests ago, that I heard a demonstration of the Synergistic Research ARTs. They merely played music and then took the five active units off the walls and replayed the music. The image, resolution, dynamics, and bass collapsed. Everyone asked immediately that they be put back in. I bought them on the spot.
I have been in several demonstrations but this was rivaled only by that for the Murata supertweeters I heard at CES years ago.
I have since added two addition sets of the ART Basiks and one additional ART Base Station. The Basiks are primarily for my NM summer home, but I bring them home.
Iron cups are the basic element in both the ART and ART Basik systems. These cups fit on wall mounts that are placed on the four walls at selected heights. There is a Bass Station in both that now sits in front of each of my Contrivas as well as another in front of my Zu Method subwoofer.
The Zilplex resonators would have to climb a tall mountain to outperform these resonators. |
Roysen, I heard the Sunrays sound way too tuby and warms with the Bridge Audio amps at CES 2010 and then sound outstanding at CES 2011 with the same amps?? I could not find out whether the amps had been changed in that year, but I think not.
My point is that they reveal the electronics quite well. The best I have ever heard the Contrivas was with the Ypsilon hybrid amps. Unfortunately, I doubt that these two products will ever display together, at least in the US.
My Contrivas have never sounded too warm with either H-Cat electronic or now BMC electronics. Both are solid state. |
Although HP was better than most in using words to describe sounds, I still think it is futile effort to do so. Yes, we should not have Audiogon, or it is a waste of time. Certainly, neutral is subjective; every review is subjective. Stereophile in particular has shown little or no correspondence between measurement and what we hear. Several years ago Archibald pulled in a very positive review of a $350k amp, which was the finest amp I ever heard because it did not measure very good. What bs! Several years later at the RMAF, he had a Boulder amp and an unnamed amp and showed both under loads measuring THD. Everyone raved about how stout the Boulder was. I asked "do you think the designer of the other amp think THD captures how good an amp sounds?" A hush fell over the room, and I left. |
Quanmer, I think what you mean by "sharp edge" is the speed of the drivers. I expect all dynamic drivers, including the Marten Coltranes, lack this as compared with compression drivers on horns. This speed is not fatiguing if the electronics are good, and it makes drums and pianos sound real. I am very happy with my Contrivas Diacera SEs, but they will never equal the speed of my VOTs.
I am totally in agreement about quality speakers revealing the electronic associated with them. I first heard the Sunrays with the Bridge Audio amps, as I think I have mentioned here. They sounded like pretty poor tube electronics. But in last years CES, the same combo sounded great. I suspect that the Bridge amps had been revised. |
Maceear, I must admit that when I received them, I was dubious to say the least. They are so small to have the effect they have. They are supposed to be in the Exemplar suite at THE Show in January. |
Roysen, I am incredulous at what you have said in the last two postings. I have known many speaker manufacturers over my time in audio. Measurements have not been a major consideration in any case that I know of. I once visited a major UK manufacturer and we listened to two prototypes. Both were identical in every regard, dimensions, drivers, crossover, construction, finish, wire and of course all electronics that we used in listening.
Before he could ask which I liked, I said that one sounded much better. He agreed. I said how could this be. He said they were made in different shops was the only difference. The better one went into production and has been very successful. I am sure each speaker is listened to at his shop as in others but not measured. I have not visited Tidal, so I don't know whether each is measured but I do know they are listened to.
If you mean by "non-neutral" poor sounding, I can agree with all you say. But measurements fail to capture much that is essential to "good sounding." Of course, frequency response, off axis response, phase, and efficiency are all elements of good design, and they can be easily measured in speakers. Manufacturers have little influence on what consumers hook to their speakers, and, as Geopolitis noted, can greatly influence what the speakers sound like, especially it seems the Tidal speakers. |
Holenneck, I never said I knew about Jorn. I see he adds "step response" to my list and then goes to frequency response. I know that he remains very concerned with the non-resonant cabinets. As I said apart from these easy to measure characteristics, speakers are designed by listening to them. I guess you could measure cabinet resonance this rather than feel it.
Jorn is not talking about some measure of neutrality, harmonic distortion, or quality "measures" of speakers. |
Roysen, I don't accept that neutrality is objective. I find it strange that you use this term, but I unaware of an neutrality meter. What are the measurements of neutrality? I assume that you would argue that there is total agreement of what are these objective measures.
You say that listening is to unreliable, yet that is all we ever use our systems for. Again I don't really know what measurements other than those I listed that might be used nor do I think they determine quality sound. If Tidal, Rockport, and YG Acoustics share the measurements of neutrality with Wilson and Magico, I put no confidence in them. |
Holenneck, I think you misidentify my orientation and my experience. As I said repeatedly, measures of frequency response, phase, and dispersion are goals and used. But there is much beyond this and that is where listening comes into play. I have personally experienced designers coming to grips with their prototypes that meet the measurement criteria but fail to sound good
I was primarily reacting to Roysen exaggeration of the word "neutral," as though it had some objective measurement. I don't think most designer seek to "voice" their designs to be something other than realistic and uncolored, but I have never known a designer who didn't go for the best sound within their "price point."
This really is the classic "subjectivist" v. "objectivist" argument once again. There is no resolution to it. I am as are the vast majority of the designers I know, subjectivists who use some measurements when appropriate. |
Ojdeteos, I know it complicates things for you, but my room is 18 x 24 x 11.5 feet. The Contrivas Diacera SEs work very well here. I think my room and yours could take the Sunrays. I would advise getting lots of power for either as I doubt they are very efficient, probably less than 90 db. |
Argyro, I am using BMC gear. They have no preamp or line stage. Their DAC1 PRE has an optional line stage module that allows analog input. I have this option. In fact presently I am using a Weiss Dac202 driven by my Macintosh computer into one of the two RCA inputs. I am soon going to use balanced cables from the Weiss to hear whether balanced improves performance.
If you have no need to have analog, I cannot, you can buy the DAC1 without the preamp module. The DAC1 provides control of volume to the BMC amps as well as the "current injection" circuit in running the amps. |
