Thiel Owners

Greetings All. i have been remiss from posting so here goes.

1. i do use the GAIA feet under my 3.7’s and i liked what they did as the speaker actually got a little richer sounding.

2. the 3.7’s do require some heavy duty amps and i use the PS Audio BHK 300 mono blocks, but even their stereo 250 amp did a great job when i had it.

3. I have been contemplating updating with new speakers and per Jafant’s urging, i will be sharing some of my findings here. My criteria for speakers would be that they would be USA made, and have dealers near me. Lucky for me there are two guys who have shops nearby and both are friends. one sells Wilson and i have listened to the Sabrina’s and the Sasha’s, and the other guy sells Magico and i have listened to the A5’s. Jafant warned me that i would have to spend some serious bucks to improve on the 3.7’s and he was correct. I liked a lot of what the Sabrinas did, but they lacked the openness and transparency of the 3.7s. on the other hand the Sasha’s were stunning but a bit more than i had planned to spend at $39K. Have heard the Magico A5 twice now and, like the Sabrinas, they did a lot I liked but i think the room they are in really holds them back as they are very close to the side walls. the owner said that he would bring them to my home in Jan. for a weekend audition. That would be the only way i can know how they really do. One of my complaints about the 3.7’s (and with all Thiel speakers going back to my first pair of 2.0’s in 1985) is that there can be an irritating glare when playing compact discs. So i recently got the new PS Audio DAC (I am a Beta tester) and the glare was reduced significantly. I asked Paul McGowan about that and here is his response:

The lower noise floor doesn’t net out in the way people might think (less audible noise). All the efforts at lowering noise by galvanically isolating everything removes jitter and that is almost always audible as glare. Also, the improved output transformer and output stages have a lot to do with the better sound.

The bottom line is that the Thiels are just ruthlessly revealing, and that why i heard the glare as it was a digital artifact. They sound a lot better now that I am using the new DAC. Will be selling my older PS DSD DAC if anyone is interested. Please PM if so. I will be listing it soon and will sell it to anyone on this thread for $2600 which is a great price. I am a big PS fan and use lots of their gear (except their BHK preamp).

to quote JA, "Happy Listening"

it has been a few years since i added the GAIA footers,   but i recall that the sound was a little richer and yet a bit more detailed.   i put them on the outriggers.

hi  @thieliste  and  @dr3,   it has been a few years but i think i had to order some additional screws  to attach the GAIA to the outriggers.   i would certainly want a 30 day return on them as my friend Bob (who has 3.7's) did not like them.,  mine go onto bare floor as i cut the carpet away for them (his wife would not allow him to do so :).  I really like the PS amps  but i would guess that the Brystons would be great as well.   I do want to try an integrated,  the Gryphon Diablo,  as it worked so well with the Wilson speakers,  and it is something i can borrow for a few days.  the Wilson dealer will not bring the Sasha's to my home and i totally understand why.,   so next year,  if all goes well and just for fun,  i am going to take my 3.7's over there and run them against the Wilsons.  

thanks @thieliste .  they seemed to do well with the Wilson speakers.  i must admit it would take a lot for me to give up my PS mono blocks and Pass XP22 pre.   i just like the idea of a simpler setup with less interconnects, etc.

@vair68robert my 3.7's are toed in maybe 1/2" tops.   i use a laser beam level and after removing the grills,   i put the tool against the front of the speaker and it usually bisects the opposite speaker about 1" back. i want each speaker to be toed in such that the opposing speaker shows 1" back from the front of the speaker.  i am sure that was clear as mud :)

@solobone22 Greetings.   i have been using REL subs very effectively with my Thiel 2.7's and now 3.7's.  I have used  a few generations but currently am enjoying a pair of S812's.  i do find that two work a lot better than one.  There is a really fine dealer here in Greensboro NC that sells them and is very knowledgeable about them.   Big Kids Toys.

@jafant you are most welcome.   the thing that many still do not understand is that a good set of sub bass speakers are not just about more bottom.  they add a richness and fullness to the sound that is amazing.  plus two can really help even out a room's dips and peaks in that region.  John Hunter at REL talks a lot about this concept and it is so true.   The thing is a pair of full range speakers have to be positioned in a spot that will inevitably cause some sonic compromises.  with a sub bass system,  the mains can be put in positions that optimize imaging and spaciousness without adversely affecting the lower frequencies.

Thanks.  i have only heard the Diablo driving the Wilson Sabrinas and Sasha DAWs and it seemed to do a great job.   someday I may give it a try with whatever speakers i end up with (which could very well be what i already have-the 3.7's)

I am curious.   speakers that i hear really good things about are the Focal Sopra's 2 and 3.  Does anyone here have any experience with them.   In the "looks department",  they are far better looking to me than the Magico or Wilson speakers in that price range.

@jafant   thanks Man.   i figured you might know.   I must say that i am amazed at how much better the 3.7's are sounding with the insertion of the new PS Audio DSD DAC II.   The sound is so much richer and easier to listen to.   it shows how much jitter we are getting in digital and how the Thiel speakers really hold nothing back.   Their high resolution is a two edged sword but they sound stunning now.  

@sdl4 you are most welcome. the original DSD DAC was revelatory and a big improvement on its predecessor, the PWD. the MKII is as big an improvement. the sound was great with the first DSD, but the two things i notice most with the new unit, is both more information but a much more relaxed and natural sound. The reduction in jitter (according to Paul) is why the sound is so much more natural and easy to listen to.

when they get the bugs fixed (mine has had none) i encourage you to audition it but give it two weeks of playing to break in.

I have had the pleasure of owning five generations of Theil speakers:

2.0

2.2

2.4

2.7

3.7

This is a very iffy statement to make due to multiple variables, and to the time issues, but i think the biggest jump in sound i got was between the 2.0 and 2.2, and between the 2.2 and the 2.4. what i am saying is that when you can, try to get a pair of the 2.4 or 2.4SE’s.

I am currently auditioning speakers to replace my 3.7’s, but so far both the Wilson Sabrinas and the Magico A5’s have not motivated me to make a change.

hi Everyone,  have not posted in a while though i think i did post about this a ways back.   Below is new correspondence with Tom Thiel and  his response.

Hi Tom,   I wanted to update  you FIVE YEARS LATER as I think this is very useful info for Thiel fans.  I have really enjoyed the 3.7’s I got from Rob Gillum back in 2018 but there was always a bit of persistent glare, most notably on female vocals.   I started looking for new speakers a few months ago and listened to the Magico A5’s,  and the lower priced Wilsons (Sashas and Sabrinas).   

But then I got the new DSD DAC  II from PS Audio (it is second generation and replaced my older one) and my reaction after playing it a bit was “holy cow,  I got new speakers”.  And a friend who has the same system as I do had about the same reaction.  The 3.7’s were not really the main issue,  it was the digital glare caused by jitter.  The new DSD DAC  II reduces jitter enormously and the sound is much more enjoyable.   I think the 3.7’s were just reproducing what they were fed. Suffice to say,  both my friend and I have put our speaker search on the back burner. 

   In fact two audio buddies came over this week and they have heard a lot of very new high $$$ gear very recently, and they were both “blown away” by the sound of a system with speakers designed in 2008.   Gosh Jim sure was ahead of his time.  

 Here is Tom's response:  Hi Kent,

Yes, good information for Thiel fans. Perhaps you might post it on the Thiel Owners Audiogon Forum.

Speakers always get blamed for whatever is being heard. Thiel has a particularly harder time because its phase/time correct format increases aural scrutiny around what's wrong with the signal. The ear-brain expects perfection when it believes the signal is real rather than adulterated. I'm so glad you ironed out this wrinkle.
At some time in the future there will be upgrades for your 3.7s, but only after we have created some entity that can support sales, installation and service of these Thiel Renaissance upgrades. The CS3.7 is very mature with little  low-hanging upgrade fruit. Potential improvements include input terminals, hookup wire, baffle turbulence control, thermal management in the XO and drivers and possibly a new grille ( eliminate both steel and fabric ).

Thank you for this report.  Tom

 

hi Jafant,   you did warn me about that.  Now with the improved sound due to the new DAC, and the potential for updates from Rob and Tom,  I suspect i will be a Thiel guy for years to come.   I do want to add that without a good pair of subs,   they will never really show their stuff.  My REL 812 subs really complete the sound

Greetings everyone and happy holidays. I wanted to weigh in with some comments about my new amp and preamp. I recently sold my PS Audio BHK mono blocks and got a Coda 16 amp. The sonic differences were subtle and someone else may prefer the PS amps, but i did like the Coda a bit better. The main reason for the change was I was no longer interested in messing with tubes.

However the big sonic improvement was when i moved from a Pass XP22 to the Coda 07X preamp. The Coda pre really seems to bring out the best in my Thiel 3.7’s. It is a much more musical unit and I think a much better sonic match to the speakers. The Pass would very likely be better with speakers that are softer and more rounded on the top.

Greetings everyone and Happy Friday.   This may surprise a few people, but i got the itch to get a new amp and so am selling my PS Audio BHK 300 mono blocks.

if anyone is interested they can PM me.   They work great with Thiel speakers for sure as they powered 2.7's and now 3.7's.   Kent

Greetings Thiel fans,  i have been using Thiel speakers since 1986 starting with a pair of 2.0's and am now enjoying a pair of 3.7's that I got from Rob about five years ago.  In a very recent correspondence,  he suggested that I add some resistors to the mid/tweeter driver.   see his note below. Does anyone here have any experience with adding those resistors to their 3.7's which have the black bezel drivers?  Thanks for any input.

Hi Kent,

"Glad to hear from you. I have also found that placing a small 5 watt, 2.5 ohm resistor in series with the positive wire, makes them sound great, and more sonically balanced.  It seems to me that the CS3.7 is a little bright. This will solve the issue.  In the beginning the silver bezel coaxes had a tuning resistor added to the mid and tweeter, as needed. I do have the 5 watt, 3 ohm resistors in stock. The resistors should be added to both the midrange and the tweeter, in series with the positive wire to the coax mid and tweeter. 4 resistors are on their way via regular mail. The original resistors were .33 ohms to .75 ohms. Which were used on the silver bezel coaxes."

@jafant  i am confused.  in a post above  you said that 3.7's do not require toe in but the above post says that toe in decreases HF energy.  that does not compute.

thanks Guys.  mine are toed in maybe 3-5 degrees. the right speaker has nothing beside it to create additional HF.  the left speaker has a wall near it but i have a big sound diffusion panel at the first reflection to help.   I use a laser level across the front of the speakers that projects a laser line onto the other speaker. it barely bisects the side of the speaker and when i get the same thing on both speakers,  i have got them toed in the same.  does that make sense?  i would post pics but there is no way to do it as far as i can tell. 

JA asked me to share my thoughts on the new preamp i got a few weeks ago. so here goes:  I also posted it as a separate thread.

That Transformational piece of Gear We All Wish For

Regarding amps for the 3.7's which i have owned since 2018,  i have had great success with the PS Audio BHK amps  (both stereo and then mono blocks), and a Coda 16.  I wrote about this preamp earlier,  but the introduction of the BAT VK-80 completely transformed the sound of my system.   i greatly prefer it over the three previous preamps (Pass,  PS, Coda) that i had been using. https://balancedaudio.net/vk-80-preamp

Greetings Thiel fans, I wanted to update you on a modification that i made (with the great help of my friend Bob M. who did most of the leg work on this). This was inspired by a suggestion that Rob Gillum had made to us in putting some three ohm resistors in front of the mid and tweeter in the 3.7’s.

Rather than add one three ohm resistor we put two parallel going to both mid and tweeter. This would reduce the nominal impedance by 1.5 since they were in parallel. The result was a easier to listen to top end with a bit more naturalness to it. Rob gave us the idea and Bob did some digging and came up with the idea of running them in parallel rather than Use a 1.5 resistor. of course YMMV. this is what we added and it took 8 total. Dayton Audio DPR10-3.0 3 Ohm 10 Watt Precision 1% Audio Grade Resistor. Parts Express.

I would not do this unless i was pretty proficient with a soldering gun.  i would use solid silver and it takes two to make it doable,  one to hold the driver and one to solder.  when using the resistors in parallel,  be sure to twist them together. 

hi Tom,   thank you so much for your response to my post about the mods i did to the coax of the 3.7's.  To clarify it was Rob G who suggested this tweak if we found the top end to be a bit bright and he sent me four 3 ohm resistors to try along with some silver solder.  My friend Bob is much more proficient and comfortable working with a soldering gun and tried different iterations on his 3.7's.  After using the ones Rob had sent he also tried some from Parts Express (see above) in the same value.  Thought the padding was too much and then tried using them in parallel  (becoming 1.5 ohm) which he really liked.  Same here.  We both have extremely good gear with me using a Coda 16 amp,  a BAT VK-80 preamp,  and a digital front end by PS Audio.,

What i heard is along the lines of what you described.   If I could put it in layman's language (i am not very technical),  if i had tone controls in my system,  it would be as if i turned the treble down one click and the bass up one click.   It really made the system more enjoyable than it already was and it was great.  The VP of BAT (Steve) visited my home last fall (before the mod) and was incredibly impressed with the sound i was getting out of a speaker from 2008.  So impressed that he actually may get a pair of the 3.7's someday. 

Others may not like the way the resistors changed the sound but for myself and my friend Bob,  it was a move in the right direction.  Thanks for all you do Tom.  It is greatly appreciated.

hi VR68,  that is so interesting.  I am going to study that more intently.  and TomThiel,  thank you so much.  I am not that adept at doing that kind of project but will tell my friend Bob about it.  Maybe the truth is that he and I both just like a bit of "tone control" here and a slightly muted treble?  I just find the sound a bit easier to listen to, especially at higher volumes. 

hi Spacebird, I have owned five generations of Thiel speakers since 1985.

2.0 (1985), 2.2 (1989), 2.4 (2007), 2.7 (2014), and now the 3.7’s (2019) I would second Tom’s suggestion, but if you can swing it, go for the 2.4’s. A truly wonderful speaker and a big jump in sound quality of the two that proceeded it in my system.