Thiel Owners

this should prove interesting.   i sometimes get a crackle when i play the cut Gaia from James Taylors hourglass.   i call it the system destroyer

my experience with blown Thiel drivers is as follows and i have owned a set of thiel speakers since 1985 starting with the 2.0.  never have blown a woofer in all these years which is good.  Blew a midrange on a 2.2 but it was about 12 years old and i think it just failed due to nothing i did.   nothing ever with the 2.4's.  not so lucky with the 2.7's.  have replaced  3 of the coax mid/tweeter.   the first time i think it was a bad driver as it failed after 2 months.  i have been using the PS BHK 250 after the first failure and it is a very robust amp and not prone to clipping so not really sure what happened on 2 and 3.   however i keep spare mid/tweeter coaxes here just in case.

wow 70 should be easy on the speakers.    i probably should not say this here,   but using my phone app to measure the volume,   i probably listen about 80-85 tops.

another comment from my friend using the Goertz cables with the 3.7's.

One more thing to add to the list. Not sure exactly how this works but the background with the Goertz is blacker. The music just emerges from a very quiet place. Not sure why this would be so? Didn't think of speaker cables as adding noise? Maybe the Zobels are getting rid of some high frequency hash?

thanks Tom.   is that true for shorter lengths such as 8' as he is running 13'

thank you so much

okay guys,   spill the beans.  am i the only one here who has had issues with the coax drivers in the x.7 series.   as i mentioned earlier i have had to replace three of them in the 2.7's but none yet in the 3.7's.  earlier models never had an issue.   inquiring minds want to know.   thanks.

thanks,  but it would be interesting to see who else has had a problem with blown drivers in the x.7 models.  i certainly cannot be the only one but maybe i am.   i play my music loud but my girlfriend who does not like it too loud,   rarely says anything to me.  usually 80-85 db

thank you Tom.   maybe you can get Rob to join us here.

Prof: " Folks, for those who blew drivers, like the 2.7/3.7 coax, what were the sonic symptoms? Did the sound just die? Or did a crackle develop in the sound....something like that?"
first time:  scratchy sound though i think it was bad from the get go as it happened within two months, or perhaps the amp, a Marantz reference,  was not up to par.2nd time:  with BHK amp-got the crackle you referred to and it was really obvious something was wrong and Rob said it was blown.3rd time:  with BHK-weird as it was more of a hum,  almost like the unit was singing with the music, but it added something really weird to the sound.  Rob can usually fix them but this one stumped him if i recall. 

thanks Tom.  i guess i play them too loud but i measured and the average is about 78 db with peaks of 85.  plus the PS Audio BHK 250 amp is a hoss.  I will have to be more careful  but interestingly enough,  in the past using lesser amps with the older models, and playing at the same levels,  they did not blow.   my  guess is that the newer coax is just a bit more touchy.  thanks so much for being on this thread.  

thank you again TT.   your input here is so appreciated as is the research you are doing.  it is a puzzle to me why i have had bad luck with the coaxes in the 2.7's, and maybe it was a bad batch.   i use Analysis Plus speaker cables and they are only 8' runs.   the first driver that blew was used with a Marantz reference amp,  so no slouch,  but the second and third were with the PS amp,  so i doubt i drove it into clipping.   i have issues in the right ear and it will buzz like a tweeter when the  music is played too loud.  sort of my canary in the coal mine  thing.  maybe it is a thing of the past now that i have 3.7's which i think are less demanding on the amp due to the higher input sensitivity. i have had to  dial back the preamp from an average listening level of 39 to about 33 (PS BHK preamp).

i have no knowledge of Luxman but that looks like a beast to beat the band.  how much

good question Prof.

thanks Tom,  that is interesting if i understand correctly about the resistors.  when i sent back the last damaged coax to Rob,  he sent the replacement back with a resistor on the positive terminal.   to the best of my recollection,  none of the others had that resistor.  could the lack of that resistor make the drivers more prone to damage?

hi Tom,  my  understanding of this is bare bones at best.   i did replace a few coaxes and do not remember seeing any with a resistor on the positive terminal.   could that be a reason for my proclivity to blow drivers?  When i sold my 2.7's i sent the extra coax that i had for it and it did have the resistor as it was my back up driver.  

Pops:  too funny.  she is very sweet but is very strong.  not that big actually,   maybe 135 lbs.   But at age 65,  and two marriages,  i doubt there will be a third one.

I thought the 2.4's were fantastic.  enjoy

more comments from my friend trying the Goertz.

Do you know when you hear a match up that is just right? That is what the Goertz / Thiel combo is. I am really surprised they such a good match. You need to try them. They need about 20 hours to really show their stuff. .

 

hi Frozen,  thanks for caring.  i have not had a  hearing test in about 10 years,  but the last time i was shown the results and it was good.  I have some minor issue that when the volume gets too high my right ear buzzes a bit.  it happens more in live concerts than at home since i can turn it down.  i guess too many  nights in the clubs back in the 70's took a tool.plus playing drums along with Deep Purple on my stereo way back.   i am lucky i can hear at all but my hearing is good.

and of course i have to put a plug in for the PS Audio BHK amps as well.  They were not around when Jim could have heard them,  but they are a fantastic amp for the money.  Plus they are still in business and have the best customer service in the industry

wow. very nice.   i use a REL SHO 5 sub and it works great,  but i do have to wonder if a Thiel sub would not match better.

As someone who has owned the 2 series since 1985, lived with the 2.7's for over 3 years, and now the 3.7's for a few months,   i would like to weigh in on the comparison of the two.   Boy there are no losers here as both are great and i for one, could happily live with either.  Even before i read Tom's post above about the 2's being more responsive,  i had come up with what i thought might be an apt metaphor.   Comparing the two speakers is like comparing a 3 series BMW to a 5 series.  Both are awesome but in different ways as the 3 is a bit more sporty and responsive and the five is more comfortable and luxurious.  That is how i hear the speakers.  My musical tastes are divided between classical (50%) and rock/pop/jazz at 50%.  However I find big symphonic music to be my most favorite thing and that requires moving more air and having a bigger sound.   I think it is more difficult to produce a symphony in full swing versus say a Lyle Lovett or Mark Knopfler.  So for me,  and based on that criteria, as much as i liked the bit more nuance that i got from the 2.7's,  i find the power and the majesty (remember that album) of the 3.7's to be more to my liking. If your musical tastes are towards smaller ensembles or more nuanced music,  the 2.7's may be the better speaker.  As i said earlier,  no losers here.

I would like to add that both speakers,  for whatever reasons,  need lots of break in time (400 Hours).   When i compared my well played 2.7's with the new  (and hardly used 3.7's I got from Rob) in the first month or so, the 2's killed it.   it took over 3 months for the 3's to catch up and now i think they have surpassed the 2's for my tastes.  but as i said earlier,  both are fantastic and nobody loses with either one.

hi Prof,   thanks for the comment.  i thought the analogy worked, and as i have gotten older,  i am trading sporty handling and ride for comfort and sitting a bit higher.  my measurements are 88" from the ear to the tweeter,  and 102" between the two tweeters versus yours of 84" and 99",  so very close.  i too like the "immersive sound i get that way.   some think i sit to close but it works for me.  speakers are barely toed in and I sit with my ears about 4-6" below tweeters. 

Tom Thiel:

  I like what Vandersteen has done with a powered subwoofer in the enclosure. I suspect that Jim may have gravitated in that direction, having spent considerable effort developing the SmartSub.

PS Audio is working on some new speakers that may be quite fantastic and they are using a powered sub built in as well.  Unlike Prof.,  I have not heard in great detail all the speakers he has.  A local dealer carries Magico but have not spent enough time listening to them (I do not want to waste his time since they are not in the budget right now),  and there is a Joseph Audio dealer also nearby. Those two brands along with the PS speakers would be on my short list to audition,  but for the next 3-5 years or so,  the 3.7's will be staying here (yes I know,   famous last words)

Prof:

Your 3.7s had to be used, weren’t they? Hence if break in occurred, I presume it would already have happened long ago. It’s my suspicion that it was acclimation on your part, vs the speaker.

I would have thought so too but i found out from Rob that he had replaced a number of the drivers and that may explain it.   plus they were demos that had been taken to shows but not used a lot. the first night i put them in, i played a Sting cd that i had played earlier that day. it was terrible,  and i thought, i have really screwed up.  but i let them play as much as possible when i was not around,  and they did get better.  A friend who had bought a used pair about three years earlier that had not been played much,  made the same comment about the need for more time.

For instance, during only the period of last week I went through a "Wow are these speakers are incredible, I’m totally happy with them" to "why am I finding nothing impressive on these tonight?" to "I really think I need a more lively speaker" back to "wow these are INCREDIBLE."

Boy do i know what you mean.  sometimes the music is so compelling and other times,  it is just so so. glad it is not just me that has those issues.  

I’ve acclimated to the different 2.7 sound now and in a way they now sound "different" to me (I don’t notice, or pay attention, to things I used to in how they differed from the 3.7s). 

I have sold my 2's so no more comparisons,  but on discs that i am very familiar with,  i do think the 3's are sounding better for my taste.  But as i said earlier, i could live with either and i do like the looks and the size of the 2's better.

thank you TT,  your continued input is so appreciated. 

here is a great video on burn in from Paul McGowan. 
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJFnlDTtsBA

makes sense.  thanks

music lovers may want to read this article on how to protect our valuable hearing.

https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2018/07/26/how-to-treat-tinnitus.aspx?utm_source=dnl&utm_medium=email&utm_content=art1&utm_campaign=20180726Z1_UCM&et_cid=DM223863&et_rid=375695806

who hears remembers Julian Hersch,  aka Mr. "if it measures the same it sounds the same" from the 70's?

sheesh.   should have said "who here", not who hears. i should not post this late in the day :)

those were the days before TAS and Stereophile started making headway.   But by 1978 or so i quite reading SR and followed TAS and HP.  I am 65,  so officially old :).   Julian was from the school that said if you could not measure it,  it was not a discernible difference. 

damn.  should have said quit, not quite.  i need to preview my posts first.

Pray tell BrayEagle,   what is your secret or secrets. 95 and still enjoying audio.  that is so wonderful.  i think daily doses of music we love keeps us young.  My mother's 95 year old boyfriend (who looks and acts about 70) would add red wine to the list of things to keep you young,   He loves going to live classical concerts and he would travel 60 miles to hear a string quartet concert as well. 

hi BrayEagle,   thank you for a wonderful post.  what a great story.  it is so neat that at 95 you are still enjoying audio,  and no longer using a cactus needle as a stylus.  what happened to your post.  it has disappeared. 

I promise i do not work for PS Audio, but if their BHK amps are in the budget,   they should be auditioned.   I find them to be a  fantastic match with my current 3.7's and my former 2.7's. 

hi Jafant,  i am a huge PS fan.  I have a new P15 power regenerator on the way to me and it should be here soon.  I think those are a must have for most systems as they do so much good with no harm at all to the sound.  The unit that it is replacing,  the P10,  made such a great difference in the sound.  Much more open and expansive and detailed.

boy do i understand that Prof:  and what is funny is that compared to a lot of what is out there now, even 3.7's are not that big or heavy. 

Joseph is one of the very few brands at this point i would consider for new speakers, along with the upcoming PS Audio speakers.  But since i just got the 3.7's and they are finally broken in (they sound great), i best quit looking around.

what a great story.   actually i find moving small but heavy things like a big amp to be tough.  at least with a speaker, two people can carry it at the same time (if you are lucky enough to have someone to help).  I think however,  i will not ever own one of those behemoth Magico or Wilson speakers.  the 3.7's are mean enough to move around. 
PS: Boxing up the 2.7's with help from the guy that bought them,  was pretty easy.

I was at a local dealer's and tried to lift a Constellation amp.   could not even budge it.  my PS amp weighs about 85 lbs and that is a gracious plenty.

Prof:  thank you so much.   i have printed that out and will save it for that fateful day when they leave my home.

i cajole my girlfriend into helping me move things.   she strong like bull.

You will need to scroll to the top to read my review as the link takes you to the bottom of the page

For what it is worth,  I am totally smitten with my new PS Audio P15 power plant.  here is my review that i Posted on their site.:
https://forum.psaudio.com/t/my-review-of-the-new-p15-power-regenerator/6712/14

do yourself a favor and get the best of both worlds: the PS Audio 250 BHK amp.   here is one for sale here on audiogon for under $4000 https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis931cg-ps-audio-bhk-stereo-amplifier-stereo-power-amp-solid-stat...

You Go Tom.  thank you

Tom,  Arnie Nudell sold his big and tube hungry amps ( I believe Sonic Frontiers) for these amps.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6mvhO8fVPs&t=586s

thank you.   I really cannot emphasize enough how much the new P15 power plant transformed my system.   As i posted in my review on their website: "I have not heard my system with the BHK mono blocks (have the BHK 250), so what I am going to say now may seem a bit of hyperbole, but if I had to choose between the mono blocks and no P15, or one BHK 250 amp and the P15, I know what I would do. https://forum.psaudio.com/t/my-review-of-the-new-p15-power-regenerator/6712