Thiel Owners
OK, a little removed from the "speaker" thread, but at least related: I run my 3.7 speakers with a Classe CA-300 amp. It has developed a slight hum audible from the tweeters. I've found someone in my area who works on this kind of thing. I'm wondering what other upgrades to the amp I might ask for besides just fixing the hum. Any amp hotrodders out there who can offer suggestions? Todd |
Regarding bass extension: I own the 3.7s and 2.2s. The 3.7s have been in my system ever since buying them last year and I'm preparing to sell the 2.2s. I was noticing some "crackle" in the tweeter of one of the 3.7 speakers and decided to change out the 3.7 for the 2.2 in an effort to narrow down the problem. Turns out I had a frayed speaker cable. Here's the thing. My perception was that the 2.2 actually offered more realistic bass extension. I had one of the Bach cantatas on for reference. Bach uses just one contrabass, but it needs to be heard. I felt the 2.2 did this better. But, the overall texture of the recording was much better with the 3.7. I could hear the lute in the ensemble readily for instance. That was not so clear with the same selection rendered on the 2.2. Totally nuts, or what? Todd |
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yyzsantabarbara
, Thanks for the responses and all the links. My Aurender N10 server is incompatible with Roon, so I can't consider the Convolution app.If there's one thing I'd like more of in my system, it's low frequency "weight." It's pretty easy to tell when listening to say, solo piano music, where the low end drops off a bit. The listening room is adjacent to another equally sized room separated by sliding glass doors (open midcentury modern floor plan). My wife's Steinway is literally only 8 feet to the right of the right speaker on the other side of the doors. She can play the same passage that we've just heard from a recording as a reference. Everything tracks exceedingly well, but, yes, lower octaves don't have that same impact. I have seen the future, and it involves subwoofers. |
rwmeditz, Very impressed that you had a class with Paul Jacobs. Excellent, innovative pianist who died way too early. Many of his Nonesuch recordings have yet to be reissued, unfortunately.Re the Thiel 2.2 discussion here: I just shipped mine off to TMR in Denver. Look for them there. Nice speakers...but I can't have both 2.2 and 3.7 in the house! |
Tom - I've been considering an upgrade to my Classe CA-300 that powers my 3.7s, so I checked out the specs to the Benchmark amp you listed. The short question I have is: is this enough power? Obviously you consider that to be the case, but in an arena where many consider the large Krells to be normative, would the Benchmark keep up? Thanks for your thoughts.Todd |
This is a little late regarding the preamp discussion a few days ago, but I just wanted to chime in: I'm very happy with no preamp whatsoever. I run a Berkeley Alpha DAC directly into the amplifier, which goes directly to my 3.7s. Sounds fabulous! I wonder why more people who have this capability don't seem to do this. |
FWIW, those 2.2s at TMR were mine. I sold them to the shop a few weeks ago. An excellent outfit. The 2.2s were terrific speakers but I hadn't used them since acquiring the 3.7s a few years ago. I can vouch for the 9/10 condition. We treated them VERY nicely! Of course, I'm hoping they go to a good home. But that of course is out of my hands. Todd |
prof, re your reply to Dsper above: it's getting somewhat tedious to constantly read the same thing from you on cables. We all know how you feel, no need for constant reiteration. It's like saying over and over "I'm cognitively challenged and I expect everyone else to be too!" My wife and I, both professional classical musicians, have done the A-B test with numerous cables, amps, cd players and etc. There has never been any problem whatsoever in identifying different cables selected randomly from a list of say, 6. My wife (or me) selects a cable, the other person closes their eyes, opens them when the system is turned back on, and, no problem identifying the exact cable. Just like there is no problem hearing the difference between the Steinway 12 feet away from our 3.7s and the Thiels themselves. I have to say, thankfully, that's a small difference... |
@rasc Thanks for the detailed and timely response. There are many reasons I'd like to try Spectral, but I've gone without a preamp for quite a while now (only way to go at least for me) and don't know if I could keep that up with only a Spectral amp in the line. The line, FYI, is Aurender N10 > Berkeley Alpha DAC > Classe 300 >Thiel 3.7. Any comments on whether I would really need the Spectral preamp are greatly appreciated! |
OK, I realize this is getting somewhat off the forum topic, but the folks at Berkeley Audio tell me that they run the Alpha DAC directly into Spectral amps, with excellent results.So right now, I'm looking at the Spectral DMA-300. Specs as follows:Power Output (continuous): @ 8 ohms - 225 Watts RMS, @ 4 ohms - 410 Watts RMS, @ 2 ohms - 615 Watts RMS Output Current: 60 Amps peak per channelFrequency Response: a0.1 dB, DC-150 KHz,a1 dB, DC-1 MHz, a3 dB, DC-1.8 MHz or the DMA 400Power Output (continuous): @ 8 ohms - 225 Watts RMS,@ 4 ohms - 410 Watts RMS,@ 2 ohms - 615 Watts RMS Output Current: 60 Amps peak per channel Frequency Response: same as DMA-300 to use with my Thiel 3.7s in my 20x20x8, one side opening into another room, listening spaceThiel 3.7 specs: Amplitude Response 33HZ-22kHz +/- 2DB; Sensitivity 90db@2.8 V-1m; Impedance 4 ohms (2.8 minimum), Recommended power 200-600 watts As far as I can tell, either of these amps would do fine, with the caveat that they do not do the coveted "doubling down." I need some help with this. Any thoughts on these amp/speaker pairings will be greatly appreciated!Todd |
I have the 3.7 speakers. This past summer
I introduced two AHB2 amps to replace my Classe ca 300 which was having problems. They sounded so good I moved to an all Benchmark system soon thereafter: DAC 3B (replaced a Berkeley Alpha DAC Series 2, smoked it), LA4 pre and AHB2 with all Benchmark cabling. I ran the two AHB2s in bridged mode at first, then tried just one amp. I have to say, the single amp sounds better -- better harmonic purity, focus and all the volume I need for massive orchestral music in my 19 x 20 room. I've had it as loud as anyone would want, and no clipping. So that's my system: Thiel 3.7 and all Benchmark along with an Aurender N10 server. It sounds _fabulous_ . I've had a life as a professional classical musician with constant interaction with venues and ensembles large and small. The Benchmark AHB2 has an extraordinary purity and depth, no coloration, just the music, with instruments placed perfectly in the stage. No problem hearing into dense tone clusters in, say, Messiaen's orchestral music. Dynamics, transients, timbre is just as it should be, or rather, as it is. I feel at this point that that's it, no need to look further. |
Question regarding the CS5i speakers, which were mentioned here recently: wouldn't the sheer age of the speakers preclude anyone's interest in owning them now? It's going on 40 years, and that's plenty of time for adhesives, polymers and composites of one sort or another to substantially degrade. Comments welcome. |
Gotta second Tom's Benchmark rec. That's all you need and the end of the story. I run all Benchmark with my 3.7s. It has completely reoriented my ideas about endlessly looking for the right tweak/cable, amp and etc. Of course, I used to do that. But it seems like such a weird waste of time now, not to mention money. All these people looking to color the sound in just the right way. There may be yet new caps and resistors for the speakers, but that's another story. |
@yyzsantabarbara, a little while ago you posted: If you wait a few more months the Purifi modules with 1000 watts into 2 Ohm should be released by Bruno et al. The goal of these Class D amps is to remove a 0 from the price of amps. It should be a great match with the 3.7.Could you give us a link or more information on this? Manufacturer, where to purchase, that sort of thing. I’d be interested in following this myself. I’m in no hurry to replace my excellent ABH2, but there’s something intriguing about 1000 watts into 2 ohms. Thanks! |
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solobone22 which specific piano recordings? I want to listen to what you are referencing. Sure -- just off the top, Scarlatti 30 Sonatas, John Browning piano, Nimbus, 16/44; Brahms 7 Fantasies,etc, Emanuel Ax piano, Sony,16/44 , also Mari Asakawa's excellent new recording of Elliott Carter pieces, Centaur, 24/96. That's a good beginning cross section of venues, recording technique, piano touch and tonal balance. The Scarlatti doesn't have those lowest notes but is good for mid and upper mid. |
Question: Thiel SI-1 Smartsub Integrator Does anyone repair these? I talked with Rob about this. He doesn't and said there were problems with the unit and it had eventually been withdrawn. Does this then leave the passive crossover as the only recourse for Thiel smartsubs? Thanks for any/all replies. |
@solobone22 -- If you listen off to the side and rather close to the tweeter you can hear crackling on music with strong lower treble upper mid energy - like timpani for classical music. If you listen out front you can't hear it at all at any volume.I hate to say it, but I've discovered exactly the same issue with one of my 3.7 speakers. It happens most audibly with solo piano music. Just some occasional "tinsel" in the sound that you have to be up close and at a slight angle to really hear. But sometimes it's audible from farther away. I wish this was not happening and I'm not sure what I blown tweeter would really sound like. I mean, I played in a rock band as a kid. Now, we blew speakers. What I'm hearing is nothing like that. |
I had a discussion with Rob G. several weeks ago about replacing caps in my 3.7s. He basically said don't bother, it won't be worth the effort. He sent me a couple pictures of designs he has tried with the 3.7 and maintained the sonic improvement was minimal compared to cost. If anyone else here has modded the 3.7, it would be nice to chime in at this point! |
Interesting to read the 2.4 upgrade issues here and the seeming availability of parts. I'm currently planning a complete upgrade to my 3.7 XOs . It has FXT boards, loosely wound coils, MKT caps, just as @beetlemania describes. I have spent the last several months trying to source components. Nothing at all available from ERSE or Rob for coil replacement but have found everything I need from Jantzen. Resistors not a problem. Caps a big problem but work is in progress. I want to have this all done by summer end and will post. |
Also, @ improvedsound, Very, very nice! I’m hoping to do XO upgrades with my 3.7s. This can serve as a model. |
@unsound -- As for the Benchmark DACs; while I realize that a DAC is more than the sum of it’s parts, I find it irksome that Benchmark chooses to cheap out and use the lesser Sabre chips when much less expensive DACs use the the top of the line Sabre chips.Hmm .. do I sense a modding opportunity here? |
Tom, Yes, your experience with the Benchmark cables mirrors mine. I have Aurender N10 > DAC3B > LA4 > AHB2 x2 > 3.7. I've posted several times here about how glorious this sounds. I tried some upper-end Morrow speaker cables a while back. Frankly, and not to detract from Morrow's fine work, they didn't add much to the perceived sound quality when using all stock Benchmark wire. |
