Thiel Owners


Guys-

I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!

Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
128x128jafant

Showing 50 responses by tmsrdg

OK, a little removed from the "speaker" thread, but at least related: I run my 3.7 speakers with a Classe CA-300 amp. It has developed a slight hum audible from the tweeters. I've found someone in my area who works on this kind of thing. I'm wondering what other upgrades to the amp I might ask for besides just fixing the hum. Any amp hotrodders out there who can offer suggestions?
Todd
@ronkent,
How do you handle the crossovers with the REL/3.7 combo?  I own the 3.7 and have been thinking of the same thing.
Todd
Tom,
Your message to @ronkent mentions the phase coherence of the playback chain. How does one tell if the playback chain is phase coherent?
Todd
There are several instances of the Spectral DMA-360 Series 2 mono power amps for sale on the secondary market which I am considering for my 3.7s.
Anyone here have any opinions or experiences with these and Thiel?
Thanks!
Todd
@ronkent,
Thanks. Gonna have to make the drive to Boulder sooner than later...
Todd
Regarding bass extension: I own the 3.7s and 2.2s. The 3.7s have been in my system ever since buying them last year and I'm preparing to sell the 2.2s.  I was noticing some "crackle" in the tweeter of one of the 3.7 speakers and decided to change out the 3.7 for the 2.2 in an effort to narrow down the problem. Turns out I had a frayed speaker cable. Here's the thing. My perception was that the 2.2 actually offered more realistic bass extension. I had one of the Bach cantatas on for reference. Bach uses just one contrabass, but it needs to be heard. I felt the 2.2 did this better. But, the overall texture of the recording was much better with the 3.7. I could hear the lute in the ensemble readily for instance. That was not so clear with the same selection rendered on the 2.2. Totally nuts, or what?
Todd
@ yyzsantabarbara ,
Thanks for the responses and all the links. My Aurender N10 server is incompatible with Roon, so I can't consider the Convolution app.If there's one thing I'd like more of in my system, it's low frequency "weight."  It's pretty easy to tell when listening to say, solo piano music, where the low end drops off a bit.  The listening room is adjacent to another equally sized room separated by sliding glass doors (open midcentury modern floor plan). My wife's Steinway is literally only 8 feet to the right of the right speaker on the other side of the doors. She can play the same passage that we've just heard from a recording as a reference. Everything tracks exceedingly well, but, yes, lower octaves don't have that same impact. I have seen the future, and it involves subwoofers.
rwmeditz,
Very impressed that you had a class with Paul Jacobs. Excellent, innovative pianist who died way too early. Many of his Nonesuch recordings have yet to be reissued, unfortunately.Re the Thiel 2.2 discussion here: I just shipped mine off to TMR in Denver. Look for them there. Nice speakers...but I can't have both 2.2 and 3.7 in the house!

Tom - I've been considering an upgrade to my Classe CA-300 that powers my 3.7s, so I checked out the specs to the Benchmark amp you listed. The short question I have is: is this enough power? Obviously you consider that to be the case, but in an arena where many consider the large Krells to be normative, would the Benchmark keep up? Thanks for your thoughts.Todd



This is a little late regarding the preamp discussion a few days ago, but I just wanted to chime in:  I'm very happy with no preamp whatsoever. I run a Berkeley Alpha DAC directly into the amplifier, which goes directly to my 3.7s. Sounds fabulous! I wonder why more people who have this capability don't seem to do this.
FWIW, those 2.2s at TMR were mine. I sold them to the shop a few weeks ago. An excellent outfit. The 2.2s were terrific speakers but I hadn't used them since acquiring the 3.7s a few years ago. I can vouch for the 9/10 condition. We treated them VERY nicely! Of course, I'm hoping they go to a good home. But that of course is out of my hands.
Todd

Tom -- speaking as a 3.7 owner, and presuming for all of us here as well, yes, I think we are all waiting with baited breath to read your extended thoughts on this latest Lexington Thiel encounter!
Todd
prof, re your reply to Dsper above: it's getting somewhat tedious to constantly read the same thing from you on cables. We all know how you feel, no need for constant reiteration. It's like saying over and over "I'm cognitively challenged and I expect everyone else to be too!"  My wife and I, both professional classical musicians, have done the A-B test with numerous cables, amps, cd players and etc. There has never been any problem whatsoever in identifying different cables selected randomly from a list of say, 6. My wife (or me) selects a cable, the other person closes their eyes, opens them when the system is turned back on, and, no problem identifying the exact cable. Just like there is no problem hearing the difference between the Steinway 12 feet away from our 3.7s and the Thiels themselves. I have to say, thankfully, that's a small difference...
thielrules --
Which subs are you using, again?  Sorry--I'm sure you listed it in the thread, but it's a long thread!

@ rascs
Finally, someone with Spectral/Thiel! I'm currently on the "mid-burner" spectrum to upgrade my Classe 300 amp that I use with my 3.7s. Tell us,is that a full Spectral ensemble, or just the amp, or what?  Thanks!

@rasc

Thanks for the detailed and timely response. There are many reasons I'd like to try Spectral, but I've gone without a preamp for quite a while now (only way to go at least for me) and don't know if I could keep that up with only a Spectral amp in the line. The line, FYI, is Aurender N10 > Berkeley Alpha DAC > Classe 300 >Thiel 3.7. Any comments on whether I would really need the Spectral preamp are greatly appreciated!
OK, I realize this is getting somewhat off the forum topic, but the folks at Berkeley Audio tell me that they run the Alpha DAC directly into Spectral amps, with excellent results.So right now, I'm looking at the Spectral DMA-300. Specs as follows:Power Output (continuous):
@ 8 ohms - 225 Watts RMS, @ 4 ohms - 410 Watts RMS, @ 2 ohms - 615 Watts RMS
Output Current: 60 Amps peak per channelFrequency Response: a0.1 dB, DC-150 KHz,a1 dB, DC-1 MHz, a3 dB, DC-1.8 MHz
or the DMA 400Power Output (continuous):
@ 8 ohms - 225 Watts RMS,@ 4 ohms - 410 Watts RMS,@ 2 ohms - 615 Watts RMS
Output Current: 60 Amps peak per channel
Frequency Response: same as DMA-300
to use with my Thiel 3.7s in my 20x20x8, one side opening into another room, listening spaceThiel 3.7 specs:
Amplitude Response 33HZ-22kHz +/- 2DB; Sensitivity 90db@2.8 V-1m; Impedance 4 ohms (2.8 minimum), Recommended power 200-600 watts
As far as I can tell, either of these amps would do fine, with the caveat that they do not do the coveted "doubling down." I need some help with this. Any thoughts on these amp/speaker pairings will be greatly appreciated!Todd


I have the 3.7 speakers. This past summer I introduced two AHB2 amps to replace my Classe ca 300 which was having problems. They sounded so good I moved to an all Benchmark system soon thereafter: DAC 3B (replaced a Berkeley Alpha DAC Series 2, smoked it), LA4 pre and AHB2 with all Benchmark cabling.

I ran the two AHB2s in bridged mode at first, then tried just one amp. I have to say, the single amp sounds better -- better harmonic purity, focus and all the volume I need for massive orchestral music in my 19 x 20 room. I've had it as loud as anyone would want, and no clipping.

So that's my system: Thiel 3.7 and all Benchmark along with an Aurender N10 server. It sounds _fabulous_ . I've had a life as a professional classical musician with constant interaction with venues and ensembles large and small. The Benchmark AHB2 has an extraordinary purity and depth,  no coloration, just the music, with instruments placed perfectly in the stage. No problem hearing into dense tone clusters in, say, Messiaen's orchestral music. Dynamics, transients, timbre is just as it should be, or rather, as it  is. I feel at this point that that's it, no need to look further.
I'm on a roll...Benchmark has a free 30 day trial for all components and the people are well informed, helpful and personable. Plus the product price presents extraordinary value. There you have it.
@yyz,Glad to hear you are enjoying the 3.7s with the all Benchmark setup -- same as I have. Yes, the sound is wide open and glorious. I've never had the AHB2 clip light go on in my 18 x 18 room, even with full-on orchestral music. It's just not an issue running a single amp in stereo mode.

Tom,

I use the nude termination on my Morrow SP7 cables into the 3.7s. Also the same contact grease (on your recommendation).  Since the cable could slip out easily, I had to "secure" them in place with a wrapping of electrical tape. Still not optimum, but the sound in fabulous.

Question regarding the CS5i speakers, which were mentioned here recently: wouldn't the sheer age of the speakers preclude anyone's interest in owning them now? It's going on 40 years, and that's plenty of time for adhesives, polymers and composites of one sort or another to substantially degrade. Comments welcome.

Gotta second Tom's Benchmark rec. That's all you need and the end of the story. I run all Benchmark with my 3.7s. It has completely reoriented my ideas about endlessly looking for the right tweak/cable, amp and etc. Of course, I used to do that.  But it seems like such a weird waste of time now, not to mention money.  All these people looking to color the sound in just the right way. There may be yet new caps and resistors for the speakers, but that's another story.

@yyzsantabarbara, a little while ago you posted:
If you wait a few more months the Purifi modules with 1000 watts into 2 Ohm should be released by Bruno et al. The goal of these Class D amps is to remove a 0 from the price of amps. It should be a great match with the 3.7.
Could you give us a link or more information on this? Manufacturer, where to purchase, that sort of thing. I’d be interested in following this myself. I’m in no hurry to replace my excellent ABH2, but there’s something intriguing about 1000 watts into 2 ohms. Thanks!
@ solobone22

which specific piano recordings? I want to listen to what you are referencing.


Sure -- just off the top, Scarlatti 30 Sonatas, John Browning piano, Nimbus, 16/44;  Brahms 7 Fantasies,etc, Emanuel Ax piano, Sony,16/44 , also Mari Asakawa's excellent new recording of Elliott Carter pieces, Centaur, 24/96.
That's a good beginning cross section of venues, recording technique, piano touch and tonal balance. The Scarlatti doesn't have those lowest notes but is good for mid and upper mid.



So, Tom, do you then agree with Rob about the SI-1 Integrator , that it's a waste of time and not reparable? I've located one that the owner claims just stopped powering on one day and hasn't worked since.

Question: Thiel SI-1 Smartsub Integrator
Does anyone repair these? I talked with Rob about this. He doesn't and said there were problems with the unit and it had eventually been withdrawn. Does this then leave the passive crossover as the only recourse for Thiel smartsubs?  Thanks for any/all replies.
One final SmartSub question: if I were to use one of the Thiel SmartSubs with my 3.7s, would I need, foregoing the SI-1 Integrator, the passive crossover "tuned" to the 3.7? Does such an item exist?
Tom,Re your comment on the PXO
I find it inaudible
Do you mean that it does not contribute any audible difference to the setup (therefore, why bother getting one) or that it it works so well that it doesn’t contribute a character of its own?Todd
Speaking of the Benchmark DAC3B and the LA4 Pre -- Paul Seydor has a nice review of these along with considerable mention of the AHB-2 in this month's online Absolute Sound.
Todd
@solobone22 --
If you listen off to the side and rather close to the tweeter you can hear crackling on music with strong lower treble upper mid energy - like timpani for classical music. If you listen out front you can't hear it at all at any volume.
I hate to say it, but I've discovered exactly the same issue with one of my 3.7 speakers. It happens most audibly with solo piano music. Just some occasional "tinsel" in the sound that you have to be up close and at a slight angle to really hear. But sometimes it's audible from farther away. I wish this was not happening and I'm not sure what I blown tweeter would really sound like. I mean, I played in a rock band as a kid. Now, we blew speakers. What I'm hearing is nothing like that.

Tom - I have to admit I'm, um, baffled by your laminar launch baffle treatment suggestion. How would that be done with the 3.7?


Tom - are you able to specify a track or two on that Rhino collection that produces the sizzle effect on your end? I'd like to hear how that plays on the 3.7. I just called it up on Qobuz...always liked Dolly's music...somehow, After the Gold Rush started playing right away...whoa...
I had a discussion with Rob G. several weeks ago about replacing caps in my 3.7s. He basically said don't bother, it won't be worth the effort. He sent me a couple pictures of designs he has tried with the 3.7 and maintained the sonic improvement was minimal compared to cost. If anyone else here has modded the 3.7, it would be nice to chime in at this point!
Alright then, swapping in Mills MRA12s  is on my list. I might  need some technical pointers, but will post results when able. Give me a minute...
OK -- just heard back from Rob myself via email.  Thoughtful and information-rich as always. What can I say, I'm very happy to know his business is doing so well!
Interesting to read the 2.4 upgrade issues here and the seeming availability of parts. I'm currently planning a complete upgrade  to my 3.7 XOs . It has FXT boards, loosely wound coils, MKT caps, just as @beetlemania describes. I have spent the last several months trying to source components. Nothing at all available from ERSE or Rob for coil replacement but have found everything I need from Jantzen. Resistors not a problem. Caps a big problem but work is in progress. I want to have this all done by summer end and will post.

Also, @ improvedsound,

Very, very nice! I’m hoping to do XO upgrades with my 3.7s. This can serve as a model.

@unsound --
As for the Benchmark DACs; while I realize that a DAC is more than the sum of it’s parts, I find it irksome that Benchmark chooses to cheap out and use the lesser Sabre chips when much less expensive DACs use the the top of the line Sabre chips.
Hmm .. do I sense a modding opportunity here?


Tom,
Excellent! I haven’t changed from my "well, that’s it" initial impression of the DAC3B since putting it in my system a few years ago. But you know how it is, there always seems to be somewhere over the rainbow.

But cutting output cables to half length gets that back.

Tom, what do you mean by this? I can't exactly cut my speaker cables in half for my Benchmark stack.

@unsound 

I have no problem with massive orchestral works -- Bruckner, Mahler, Stravinsky, Carter et alia playing at concert level through my 3.7s in my 21x20x8' listening room. My two AHB-2 amps don't even blink.

I recognize that these claims run counter to everything we know about amp behavior.

Ha! Exactly.

What are we going to believe --spec abstractions or our lying ears?

Tom,

Yes, your experience with the Benchmark cables mirrors mine.  I have Aurender N10 > DAC3B > LA4 > AHB2 x2 > 3.7. I've posted several times here about how glorious this sounds. I tried some upper-end Morrow speaker cables a while back. Frankly, and not to detract from Morrow's fine work, they didn't add much to the perceived sound quality when using all stock Benchmark wire.

My 3.7s definitely sound better with the grills off. In fact, I'm unable to distinguish the occasional sounds from the environment from that which comes from the speakers. It's that good.

Tom,

Yes, cable is self-terminated with no additional hardware. Nude is what Morrow calls them!

But re the banana plugs -- I could do that. Do you have recommendations regarding brands and/or materials?

I replaced the old coaxes in my 3.7s with the new black ones two years ago. Have to agree, the sound is fantastic. Plus they look outasight.

fluid dynamic wavelaunch technologies from Douglas Pauley

Tom, what is this?