With my in cabinet solution the resonance that will always accumulate on a chassis or components suspended or not will be dissipated with specific coupling methods and geometric shapes. For my method to work most effectively the same mechanical grounding scheme must be applied to the outside bottom of the cabinet to the higher mass of the floor. Suspended devices in free air especially under the bombardment inside a cabinet are presented with no path to dissipate resonance so those components will pass that interference on to the rest of the circuit.
Your method does reduce the material cabinet resonance from compounding the air impact resonance of your suspended parts. The free air method still holds onto some of the resonance which then becomes part of the system. Tom |
And that crossover was like a small surfboard covered with components ..very complex it must have been. The other dealer in town
sold these and a pair of Adcom mono blocs..really when he should have had a Krell..To many wine tastings with the ladies I heard was the catalyst for the burn out. Tom |
Like the sound of Renaissance and all of the science and art contained.
Like the idea and the visual of a Phoenix once again.
Best for everyone.
Tom |
On my mids or woofers I use brass inserts into the wood or in my case cast granite. I then seat the drivers with mortite/rope caulk and thread in the brass fasteners. Tom |
Starting with a pair of Dunlavy SC4s back in the 90's I have replaced all the steel fasteners with brass in all my electronics and speakers. Steel will bend the flux field of the electronic path. Easily heard on a circuit board stand off and its fastener.
Back plates that hold speaker lugs should also be non ferrous and their perimeter steel mounting screws should go away. Steel screws that hold down crossover boards should be gone. All the drivers will improve sonically with brass and not steel. Finding and then mounting with brass is somewhat difficult and time consuming..Start with the crossover and then move on to the tweeter. McMaster Carr is a great place to shop for brass fasteners including metric sizes mostly used around tweeters. Brass reduces interfering energy compared to steel in any audio part I have encountered. Tom |
Tom Thiel,
Glad to hear that your moving along with speaker model updates.
I have seen written the word thermal many time on these pages.
In forty plus years in audio of all types I may have seen 1 distraught resistor..What is your experience with and reasoning with the thermal in a loudspeaker. Would you advise running 2 resistors in parallel to maintain even more thermal headroom?
Does your baffle laminar treatment
Increase laminar surface flow or disperse laminar flow?
I treat many surfaces in my system and room with a paint that has no added metals but I do add my own so as to reduce air boundary adhesion when playing music.
I use the same treatment for an active laminar flow device I engage when the music is on.
Can you invision an application for you and your friend to make a freestanding device that offers an enhancement for laminar flow?
Tom |
If you thought you know much about wire design and magnetic wave propagation well maybe you don't. Check this out..Tom Watch "Galen Gareis, Engineer and Designer of Iconoclast Audios" on YouTube
https://youtu.be/v3nZM2BP9Ew
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Very intense and detailed video from someone who knows his design work inside and out. No pauses or hesitation like a brain on a train..with no stops in between. Tom |
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I think of the room and all its contents as passive radiators.
I also consider a speaker cabinet as a passive radiator. Remember you and I talked of how to remove a source of a fuzzzz tone near the top of a speaker enclosure..I think you said you could detect with the use of a stethoscope..
The room and all its contents have different shear velocities and shapes that collide with other shapes creating new angles and speeds. As Galen said about wire you want to control or maintain those velocities in the most linear fashion. Active laminar flow can help overcome obstructive devices in the active line of radiation. Wherever you sit.
Starsound has a room called an Energy Room. Easy descriptive term is the whole room is mechanically grounded the ceiling and walls roll energy from their surfaces like water from a water fall. With such a system, treatment is not needed nor are dynamics lost. We feel we are using only 1 time signature instead of a few or more. Furniture and soffits and such alter some of this but the majority come from the room structure whats left can be dealt with by an increase in laminar flow.
Tom
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Galen is like a perpetual motion machine..there is 0 time delay between his mind and his mouth.
A flow of information.
The video is long but well designed and executed.
Makes me rethink my Coaxial based RG6 cables each a separate single wire of a pair. Each cable surrounded by S70 microbearing shield, there for a combination of RF and vibration burn off.
Did Galen speak of resonance or mechanical shielding of the wire in acoustic space? What happens under the bombardment inside a speaker box? What change may there be? Tom
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That NASA software is most likely beyond my mind and computer..
Will look into it especially for anything concerning boundary layers of solid surfaces and air flow.
After all the listening room is a big speaker cabinet with many objects that create turbulence while at the same time reducing laminar flow. Tom
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Anyone who watched the cable video from Galen Garies..
Does Galen ever mention what happens to the signal in wire when it’s beaten up under the constant pounding and pressure inside a speaker box? The Sonoran Plateau wire I use in my cabinets is the only wire I have seen in a box that makes an attempt to cancel or reduce vibration that attacks the wire while under duress. I would love to hear Galen’s take on signal transfer in such an environment and how it may alter the electro magnetic wave thru the wire. Tom |
In a speaker box all the wires +and- are separate from each other and run in tubes as are the wires that run from the amp to the speaker their paths never cross. Every polarity runs mono in a tube.Tom |
And thinking about what Galen has designed...
Maybe he could take what he has derived from his studies and apply the
appropriate set of rules to the winding of audio inductors and transformers. I need some new inductors for my new speaker layout and watching his video has helped in the aide of my selection for the two values needed. Tom
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The conductor and all its surrounding and wrappings are placed in a clear tube which is then filled with micro bearing steel and sealed at each end except for the required length for proper termination to a terminal lug. The size of the bearing matters because you can over damp the cable if it is run externally ..I know I can hear that..but taking the speaker apart several times to listen and compare bearing size over again that is a real drag but I bet their is a difference there also. I learned much from the video and now I wish I could go back in time because he raised a whole lot of ??s in my brain.
Tom |
I forgot about those cables.
Liquid of some type would absorb or limit vibration transmission but probably not limit RFI reception like the use of micro bearings. Tom |
So you can over damp virtually anything. The bearings are available in many od's the ones I use are 7 million per pound or just slightly less than a million per pound. Application dependent. The finished product is stiff..I dont bi wire. You can use Bondo type fiberglass to fill any hole which is stronger than the typical wooden box Tom |
The bearings should not be to small because that will limit air space as well as limit motion.
Motion is needed to dissapate resonant energy in the cable jacket or maybe in the wooden box you describe...there is such a thing as to much mass. We need to find a balance between mass damping and resonance control. Sand sucks and lead sucks the life and air away no matter where they are used. My material choices start with a table listing velocity of shear. Being a member of the Starsound panel we select brass and have those parts machined to our geometric designs snd applications. Geometry can be used to gather, steer and direct resonant energy out of a speaker and component. The larger and heavier the component is..the greater the energy level stored.
Tom |
In most all applications I never liked the addition of bypass caps especially those on speakers. At one Thiel dealer in 80s we did a comparison of bypass caps on and off the result was they were left off. For what its worth 3 of the 4 listeners on that day.continued on in the business at least one to this day and still dug in. Tom D
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I purchased Solen Litz inductors for my new speaker rebuild..both 8 gauge 7 strand on the woofer
49 strand on the tweeter.
New term for me is linear inductance. Value of inductance over a much wider bandwidth than virtually any other inductor type either solid 8 gauge or 10 gauge ribbon this according to Chris at Solen. The linear bandwidth of the 49 strand for the Via Wave SRT ribbon tweeter is 35k 7 times that of the 7strand for the woofer. And the copper purity is 5 9's..The inductors are being cryo'd today when finished I will heat treat at low temp and then seal with a new to me paint with no metal but with much limestone some clay and a small amount of carbon black. Report later. Tom
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Tom Thiel...All new drivers and crossover design and components in the same cast granite cabinet with port extension and improved mechanical resonance tuning.
Same Sonoran Signature wire with Micro Bearing but now with Cardas speaker connectors. I plan on treating all connections with the 1260 Elixir from High Fidelity Cables..this product is remarkable. I will also treat the tensile leads with this near super enhancer. Tom |
The software is Vituix Cad recommended by the primary
of HiFi Compass .com a very informative website and knowledge base with numbers and graphs. Tom |
Twisted phrases for sure..There is some software I have been exploring and it does show phase variations of the same driver in various box designs and even port length. You can see the vent air speed to minimize turbulence within the port. More you know the more the need to know more. Tom |
Personally I dont see how phase angles of any 2 overlapping drivers could ever be a perfect overlay.
Maybe at a few frequencies but certainly not 90%. Wishful thinking
and I certainly want to learn more.
Not so sure that adding corrective filters are the best way to fly. Adding more and more parts sucks up power and will add noise and reduce dynamics. Tom |
I agree for carpet material natural wool over a recycled jute pad works the best over either concrete wood or tile. You can also use this as an accent area rug and slide around so it has more or less impact on sound quality. Tom |
Looking for a source for wool felt for my new speaker build. Found this company Zorro felt. They have a wide variety described by thickness and density. I may choose 1/8 inch low density to line the walls and a light amount of natural wool in the greater box volume carefull to not restrict the port. Will double or triple a layer of felt and attach to the back of the magnet and tweeter housing. The cabinet has no 90 degree angles inside or out and is cast granite with the area around the woofer 1.75 inches thick. Any suggestions are welcome .Tom |
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Beetle,
F10 felt has 98% wool compared to F11 which has 92% wool content.
I will be placing an order for F10 from Zorro in the next few days if you want to participate. Tom |
The predecessor of Starsound Technologies was asked back in the late 90's or early 2000's to offer up an outrigger design for a new Thiel narrow body floor standing speaker that was likely to tilt with a drive by touch. I worked for a retailer in those days which sold Thiel products. I had converstations with the then sales manager about this product after he heard such a huge benefit at my home to my Dunlavy SC4s which were mounted on Sistrum platforms. Our downsized and revised design and material choices were rejected in favor of a super low cost stabilizer sourced from China with virtually no sonic benefit or enhancement. A virtual kick stand only.
Tom |
Hello Beetle,
Just now saw your post. I have not placed an order yet. Putting one to
gether with an associate. Sure we can put something together as well...Tom |
Sure..My purpose is for internal lining of the walls so color is not an issue only the material used and the resulting sound are the key elements.
Tom |
I received almost enough f10 wool felt to line 1 of my speakers. Really nice product thru Zorro. Took a couple of hours to cut amd fashion the wool around driver openings and the internal port tube. Used spray adhesive to secure all the pieces.
Tom Thiel if your watching.
I could remove the internal 6.5 in long port tube as it by placement must generate a negative influence on air pressure and and increase internal turbulence. I could extend the port length out the back of this design for my room only.Be pretty much a straight shot out the back behind the tweeter location. Your experience on this idea? Might be to ugly for even me and my dedicated room. But sound comes first..Tom |
Tom Thiel,
In my work in designing endpins for cello and endbuttons for violins I met a geophysicist who showed me and explained to me how my devices actually work. I knew they sounded better but was uncertain as to why. She has a patent as how to remove a polarity of shear the mechanical wave motion that causes the air to vibrate. One polarity of shear can create interference in the other polarity, only one is needed to create vibration of air. Not sure if it is in the vertical or horizontal plane. With the removal of this single polarity you can see in the amplitude response a net gain of over 1 db. This was shown on all the harmonics of an 85 hz note out to 18khz. This interference is like a parasite that travels the surfaces and at some point becomes part of the music. There is a transition or handoff between a mechanical surface shear wave and the air that lays on them and becomes the sounds we hear.
In the case of speakers I feel I have a large understanding of how to remove interfering energy from the speaker cabinet because there are devices that can help direct interference out and off the box and into the the floor.
What I am trying to understand and you are working with I think, is the transition of the mechanical wave portion and how the now moving air is launched off the solid vibrating surface. How to make that air less turbulent at takeoff?
Tom |
How much more for the better dac chip, 20 bucks at their cost a hundred bucks at retail? Time for the next model at a higher price that they could already be selling today. Tom
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I have an Altmann dac but instead of 1 dac chip I have a tower of 12 with Zfoil resistors all in place powered by an outboard power supply supplemented with a capacitor bank of 100k uf by- passed with film caps all treated with 1260 Elixir. The dac filter is custom programmed by Altmann.
All this is mounted on a Star Sound Sistrum platform..sounds nice.. Tom |
Tom Thiel thanks so much for your journey and updates! Did you or your brother ever consider or build a prototype based on aperiodic enclosure slash vario vent..which when implemented properly seems to greatly reduce the system resonance peak? |
Tom, Thanks for your reply. Not many speakers claim to be aperiodic.. Dynaco A series were all of such design. I maybe sold a hundred of these back in the 70's. I new they had great bass for their size but didn't know why then but do now and I am trying to learn more. A great device I used to tremendous benefit was a Mcintosh MQ series you could dial in a preset boost but my system was bi-amped then circa 1980. Tom
AllegroSound * McIntosh MQ-101 Environmental Equalizer * |
Any point or points will work most effectively inside the confines of the outer dimensions of the speaker base. An outrigger mounted to any speaker is to add stability and greatly reduce any chance for a speaker with a high center of gravity from falling over. Sonics are not a benefit only stability and safety will benefit under a tall narrow speaker. There are platforms that can be mounted and secured to a speaker base that have direct coupled points that be placed inside the outline of most any speaker which will certainly improve the sonics. I have sold and installed several pairs of CS 5s in the past and they sound best when direct coupled to the inside of their base .
Tom
Tone Acoustics
Star Sound Technologies
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Tom Thiel I am really fascinated by the Iconoclast wire please post your findings as soon as you have time.
I use Bruno Putzeys Purifi 6.5 in driver in my most recent speaker rebuild and just love its performance. Cross over is 1st order to a Via Wave SRT 7 ribbon tweeter at 3k what a wonderful blend . TomD
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Tom Thiel,
I have a new speaker rebuild and elected to place the crossover out board for final tuning. It will always be outboard. Components are mounted on a solid 1/2 inch poplar board and grounded to the floor via threaded 1.5 inch Audio Points.. Originally the 2 8gauge inductors were tied down to the board each with several zip ties. After listening for a couple of weeks I felt the sound was dynamically restrained and cut away the straps, so now the inductors only rest on the board under their own mass and physical size. Immediate improvement was heard in soundstage size, everything was much more dynamic and with much more acoustic air.
These 2 small inductor values are physically large with a space of about 2.5 inches between them. They are placed 90 degrees to each other. I decided to move 1 another 2 inches from the other. Way different again in performance. I thought that placing the inductors apart and with 90 degrees of separation would eliminate any magnetic field inner play but that is not the case...So my thoughts and observations leads me to question. What are the magnetic actions and reactions when a crossover is placed inside a cabinet in proximity to a woofer magnet or powerful neo tweeter magnet and or the variable fields under power of confined inductors?
Today I will be receiving 4 sections of mu metal to place around all of the inductors or a large portion of the facing circumference of each. If this case study of the magnetic field, external to the confines of a cabinet makes for an improvement then why wouldn't the same hold true for crossovers inside the box but even much more than those outboard? TomD
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Thanks, Tom Thiel, for your experienced and insightful response.
I have heard the sounds of Barkhausen noise generated by the rapid change in magnetic fields. I know this firsthand in my use and experiments with magnetic materials, varying field strength and geometric shapes within prototypes of my products for acoustic instruments.
I will take what I learned in close quarters about my devices for acoustic instruments and expand into this speaker project. Hope it is no deeper than a rabbit hole and less than a Minute Man Silo. Still learning after all these years. TomD
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Back to brass. I have been using brass fasteners in all my audio projects for years including the mods on my Dunlavy SC4s circa 1994. First up and easiest to mod and also to hear was the extraction of the crossover from the bottom rear. It slid out when I removed all the steel screws and replaced those fasteners with brass. There were also a few internal steel screws holding some components in place, those also were removed and replaced with brass. Nice improvement in tone and texture less brittle and more rounded and relaxed. Eventually I replaced all the screws with brass in and around the tweeter even those that attach the dome to the magnet assembly, those are critical as those are the closest to the moving coil..The woofers took the most time because I used brass inserts where the factory screws once were and used machine screws as the replacement instead of brass wood screws. Overall, those 30 dollars for new fasteners was well spent. More harmonious sound for sure. I try not to mix and match materials such as brass with plastic nylon or Teflon. One material one predictable outcome and all in alignment.
I relaced all the steel chassis standoffs and circuit board hold down screws with brass. If you take a look inside those fasteners are near components and board traces. The signal is bent or deflected by those steel fasteners. Again, a simple implementation with a nice improvement. Most transformers are held in place with steel screws either on their perimeter or a steel bolt thru the center core. Bad idea from the factory. I also placed APCD2s and .2-inch Audiopoints between the transformers and chassis to direct resonance away and out of the chassis. Of course, this guide path is an art I use thru out my system, room and speakers.
I discussed with Tom Thiel previous my new experience with my outboard crossovers and the variation in response when the inductors geometric position is changed as well as their distance apart. This is just the start of adjusting and recording the speaker's response when the inductors are moved about. Some of my tests were a surprise and were not obvious or predicted by what is written of how magnetic fields speak to each other. This experience clarifies that the extraction of steel from a circuit board or near the moving coil of a speaker reduces audible distortion and makes for a more engaging listening experience. TomD
What is Faraday's law? (article) | Khan Academy
What is magnetic flux? (article) | Khan Academy
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I have mu metal panels I have received to overcome the magnetic field of each speaker inductor from each other. Since this purchase I have seen reference to a woven shield that appears to be more effective and is easily pliable to form around more complex shapes. Makes me wonder if wooden tops or an entire chassis would present a better sound from any given audio component. The magnetic field could escape instead of being re aimed back at critical components. Tom
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Magnet shift may cause the wrinkle or dent in the cone. TomD
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Magnet shift may cause the wrinkle or dent in the cone. TomD
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Sure thing. Also great for speakers. Mikey posted plans for a platform shoot out for speakers too. TomD
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For anyone with a fireplace especially in an audio room.
Always chasing an improvement in soundstage size and shape but this was originally conceived to make my walk out lower level warmer. Even with the flue packed with fiber glass and the doors closed the cold air drops 3 floors where the temp falls 4 to 5 degrees. To help solve this issue I purchased a sheet of 1-inch pink Styrofoam and 1 sheet of Luan. And 2 decorative handles and some spray adhesive. I used the same cloth that covers my home-grown acoustic panels and sprayed glued the 2 panels together with the luan on the backside so the fabric could be glued and stapled to the wood. Tight snug fit, sealing the opening. The room is warmer as a result and my audio system sounds better too. The fireplace is over my right shoulder and 12 ft away on a diagonal. The center fill is now much more precise the bass has more impact and the midbass is very specific on placement. I did the same for the other 2 fireplaces with a different choice of fabric selected by my bride. More consistent air pressure in the room is probably why there is better audio performance. TomD
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Here is a video of our StarSound, LiveVibe demo room located in Wisconsin not far from Chicago..There are a huge number of details behind those walls. Constuction details are rigid support structure with low energy storage potential and fast dissapation all mechancially ground with some of our standard devices and some newly designed for the Energy Room. The in wall wire is a type used in the medical field and then deep cryo'd. Tom
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