Thiel Owners

I received the soft dome tweeters, installed them in the 3.6s and listened throughout the weekend. Early on, they were fatiguing with increased sibilance, but seem to be approaching the original sound either from mechanical break-in or psychoacoustical break-in. Vocals, especially female seem to be moved a little forward. I expect with more play time, these 3.6s will continue to reside in my main system. Rob Gillum agrees they need break-in.

I'm very happy with mid level Synergistic Research Cables, both the Tesla T3 power cables and Tesla Accelerator speaker cables. I have purchased these on the preowned market for reasonable prices.

Also, I might need a little electrical physics explanation about the current abilities of my ARC Ref150 tube amp. Specs list power supply energy storage as 1040 joules but max current is not listed. This appears to be less than 10 amps driving my CS3.6s with a minimum impedance of 2.3 ohms (below 2.5 over a wide frequency range). I have used much higher current solid state Krells and Bryston amps with my Thiels, but much prefer tubes at my comfortable listening volume. I can only hear distortion/compression above comfortable listening levels.

Also, can someone explain why power specs for tube amps are listed the same for different loads? Power output with my ARC amp (and other tube amps I've checked) is the same for 8 and 4 ohms. This really goes against all the talk here about amps that double down.

Thanks,
Jon

Reading this thread is a highlight of my day. Tom, now you have made me very curious about the internal upgrades you mentioned. How many times were the CS3.6s upgraded? My CS3.6 SN #4789 and 4790 were produced 5/22/96.

I am looking forward to the 3.6 XO upgrade/revision too. Please keep us CS3.6 owners updated.

jasx67...I don't consider myself having audiophile knowledge, but I do consider myself having audiophile ears. I am acquiring quite a bit of knowledge on this forum, though.

Jon

rosami, I'll bet your serial numbers are close to my CS3.6s- 4789, 4790. Your setup on virtual systems looks terrific. I'm with you....trust your ears and not the claims! I, also visit dealers when I travel and have not found any speakers I prefer. I'm also curious at what dealers you talked to are claiming. Jon

Sam, I had an ARC Ref 110 before my current Ref 150. Terrific match with the Thiels, even my hard to drive CS3.6s. I saw that you preferred the 8 ohm taps on the BAT VK55. I originally preferred the 4 ohm tap on my Ref 150, but I haven't switched back since I originally purchased the amp. What do you prefer with the Ref 110?

rosami, I feel the exact same about my 3.6s. I have visited numerous dealers when I travel, and I have not heard a newer model that I had rather have in my home.

tomthiel
it seems that the 2.4 crossover upgrades are pretty well finalized now and that a lot was learned regarding upgraded components and the effects on how the speakers sound.
Since I own 3.6s, I’m interested in learning how much of the info gained from the 2.4 upgrades will be able to be applied to a 3,6 upgrade. Will it be necessary to start from scratch in designing the 3.6 crossover upgrades, and is it realistic to hope to be able to actually buy a completed crossover package from Rob G. In the near future?
Thanks!

I second rosami. I am patiently looking forward to the XO upgrades for the 3.6s.

Utrak,

Check out all the absorption I have to use to tame the bass on my CS3.6s....panels and tubetraps.

https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/6163

Jon

rosami

You speak as if you are helping resolve uncertainty with my dilemma.  For the past couple of years, I have been considering purchasing 2.4s to compare to my 3.6s, and my concerns are the same as yours. I am totally seduced by the low end of my 3.6s and I do not want to face the challenge of purchasing and properly integrating 2 subwoofers. I’ll patiently wait for future upgrades for the 3.6s. 

Jon

jafant,

Have you heard from bighempin about his trip to Denver last month to pick up his 3.7s? (his last post here was 4/27). I know you were helping him locate a pair.

Jon

I agree with jazzman7 about using a stepping stone approach. I first seriously started in this hobby about 7 years ago when I purchased my CS3.6s. At the time, I had an Exposure 2010 integrated amp. Obviously, it was very evident that I needed more 'juice', so I purchased a Bryston 4B using the Exposure as a preamp. Much better but it was just the beginning.....

warjarrett

I totally agree with the ARC-Thiel synergy. My Ref5SE-Ref150 with my 3.6s are absolutely intoxicating. I'm not sure I want to risk the cost of tube rolling since the ARC-chosen Sovtek KT120s and 6H30s sound so sublime.

I had a previous spare set of CS3.6s that I bought with dents in both tweeters. I delicately pulled most of the dents out with clear Scotch tape, but with metal domes there will still be slight undulations. It doesn't just pop up in one motion, but requires multiple small pulls. I used clear tape since I could see through to the underlying dome. If you use a straw, I would use one made of soft rubber like comes in some of the "sippy cups" and preferably clear so you can watch as the dent comes out. Jon

https://coherentsource.wordpress.com/thiel-models/

rosami

I'm in the same boat as you...very happy with my 3.6s. I have nearly pulled the trigger on a 3.7 purchase 2 times over the past few years but backed out at the last moment. I would love to hear them in my system before a purchase, but that will likely never happen. My hesitation is due to both the significant price jump (I purchased my 3.6s in mint condition from the original owner who lived 90 miles from me in 2012 for $1200 on Audiogon) and the reported attenuated deep bass response. It seems like more 3.7 owners have subs compared to 3.6 owners. I'm also very interested in the future hot rod mods, but also concerned about my ability to install once available.

Jon

2 questions for the group.
1. Where can I purchase proper speaker grill cloth for my CS1.2s? Is it the same for my CS3.6s?
2. One of my CS1.2s cabinet (Amberwood) is slightly faded from the previous owner positioning with sun exposure. Is there an easy solution such as rubbing on a stain to darken it?

@hifi28

My 3.6s are in a room 24'x13' and with proper acoustic treatments, they work to perfection. You should be able to accomplish similar results.

See virtual system https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/6163

@tomthiel,

"We need to jump over lots of wonderful details to say that we established a well managed, continuous-yield program..."

Your chronicles of Thiel Audio are captivating. We would love a book about Thiel Audio with all the details filled in. I keep my CS3.6s covered when not in use to preserve the beautiful amberwood finish!

Jon

Welcome potatoo,

I also purchased my CS3.6s #4789 and #4790 from the original owner an hour away back in 2011. No other speaker I've auditioned since then have tempted me to change. I appreciate sharing the promotional stuff. I saved a copy for my files.

Jon

HELP! I need advise. I'm nervous. One of the tweeters went out on my 26 year old CS3.6s (SN# 4789,4790 produced 5/22/96). Amazingly, this is the first problem with these. This is Rob Gillum's response:

"Sounds like the lead wires on the tweeter moving system have failed. They will need to be rebuilt as a soft dome. It will require you to send both tweeters for rebuilding and matching. The tweeter rebuilds are $200 each, plus shipping. As well as the tweeter rebuilding the waveguide or tweeter protector has to be removed for clearance to the new soft dome." 

I trust Rob but I'm concerned. Following this thread since the beginning, I know how the the crossover and drivers are meticulously tuned. Does anyone here have experience with this tweeter rebuild?

 

I removed the bad tweeter and measured open circuit on the multimeter (the good one measured 3 ohms). I have sent both to Rob for the soft dome rebuilt and will report back later. I will also be looking for 2 original pre-used tweeters as backup.

@TomThiel

The soft dome tweeter rebuilds are shipping back to me now. I asked Rob about his impressions and measurements and this is the limited reply:

"I think you will find that the soft dome is compatible. I have sold around 30 of these units and have had no complaints. The soft dome does not measure as well as the aluminum dome, but close."

I will give an update after installing in my CS3.6s. In the meantime, I have been quite surprised after properly placing and positioning my CS1.2s into the main system. Most of the music information above 52Hz is all there with very respectable imaging.

Anyone looking for a pair of 2.3 coaxial drivers? I wish these were new/old stock 3.6 tweeters. I’d like to buy and compare unused aluminum tweeters with my new replacement soft dome tweeters.

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisai53b-thiel-cs-2-3-full-range

@danomar

If you're ever 150 miles west in Birmingham, you can come by and listen to my CS3.6s. See my virtual system for details. It was at Audio Alternative in your hometown of Lilburn that started my passion for Thiel. The setup was Thiel SCS4s powered by an ARC VSi60 integrated amp and Rega Apollo source. It was magical how the speakers simply disappeared and the soundstage expanded well outside of the speakers. Alan Jones has since moved downtown to HiFi Buys. 

Advice please..... My CS3.6s #4789, #4790 produced 5/22/96 seem to have a subtle midrange degradation (slightly grainy and less focused??). Rob did the soft dome rebuild of my tweeters 5/2022, but all other components are original. Other than listening, is there a method to test their performance or should I send the midrange drivers to Rob? Could it be the crossovers?

Just an update on my inquiry a few days ago about a subtle midrange degradation in my 3.6s. 

I should have done some troubleshooting before my comment on this forum. I completely broke down my whole system and cleaned all connections/contacts with "Kontak Audio" electrical contact cleaner including all cords/connections, tubes, fuses...etc. The Thiels sound as good as they have ever sounded. If you don't have any contact cleaner, the simple friction process of unplugging and plugging back connections creates a better contact.

I also did some microphone testing with REW software and my miniDSP UMIK-1 microphone with no major issues identified. Psychoacoustics tend to play tricks with my mind, so I can't definitely say the hard work needed to clean the connections or lack of work related stress over the past weekend contributed to the improvement. 

Never underestimate the little things.

I am interested in replacing stock resistors on my CS1.2 crossovers with Mills MRA12s. Does anyone know where I can find a schematic and/or a picture/diagram of the crossover? I will eventually do some upgrades on my CS3.6 crossovers.

Are any of you following "Thiel Owners" on Facebook? Bill Kranhold just rebuilt his Thiel CS1.2s with new crossover and drivers. It sounds impressive to me. What do the other experts here think?
https://www.facebook.com/groups/129498082096524

His plan: (copy/paste)

"Ok, here we go!
This 1983 Theil CS1.2 was more than groundbreaking for it's time, with true time-coheirent cabinets and crossovers, and an ultra robust cabinet tuned to a really loe .52 Qts (even though it is ported) so it did not have to sit out 5' from a back wall to sound good. The price point was amazing, and the parts quality unheard of at the time. All hand soldered, it was nothing short of a sonic revolution. Everything Vandersteen tried to do without all the compromises. 
I am re-purposing this speaker, using a tweeter similar to the CS 2.0 series (Morel, not Dynaudio) and using a woofer similar to the OEM (but more robust yet with a lighter moving mass than the Vifa).
What I have noticed dissassembling the Thiel:  The cabinet is amazing. Thick as a brick! The crossover is very good, simple, point to point hand soldered, but, there was no mechanical contection (hooked, twisted) at any of the component joints. Wires just touched.  Some of the signal path included very small 20 guage inductors, presumably to 'choke' down the signal and compress it a bit to increase power handling. There were also inductive resistors in the signal path. I won't be doing either of those things.
My crossover is similar, 6db series for the tweeter and woofer, with a 'Fs notch' filter on the tweeter (so I can cross it over lower) and a broad band notch on the woofer (to tame the rising output above 3k).  
I will twist and solder everything, with only copper in the signal path, using non-inductive resistor in the L-pad on the tweeter and all 16ga inductors in the signal path. 
Shown is the box construction, old crossover, old parts, new crossover schematic, new crossover board, new preliminary crossover, and some pics showing the back-winding of the original coils for re-purposing, etc. 
The box tuning should be very close to the original, going down a few hz lower, but I can't be sure till I test it. I will tune the existing reflex port as needed. 
I expect this speaker to sound very similar to the original, with a more open sounding tweeter, a faster woofer, and a tiny bit more power handling"

His reported results:

"Success!
Very pleased.
Very balanced, open, with a large image.
Tests well, with a 2db dip 1-2.5k, and rising HF output above 10k.
Used the same filter philosophy as Thiel, 1st on HF with anti-resonance, 1st on LF with impeadance compensation, but added a notch filter for the rising output of the SB driver. Re-used the Thiel 16 and 18 gauge coils, back-winding them to size. Went up in quality on the resistors and caps. Same exact damping and reflex tuning as the original. 
It sounds good enough to reproduce a few more !"

bill10907

You might check out my setup in my primary “Virtual System”. After having high powered Krell, Bryston, McIntosh etc with my 3.6s, I’ve been very happy with Audio Research tubes on amp and preamp.

 

I started with VSi60 integrated amp with KT 120s, then Ref 110, Ref 75, Ref 150 and now Ref 250 mono amps. Each amp had classic ARC sound with huge soundstage (tall, wide and deep), separation with precise imaging and I think you’d be surprised at how well the VSi60 Watt integrated amp drives the big Thiels in spite of most recommending high powered solid state amps. 

 

solobone22

I replaced with the soft dome tweeters over a year ago, acquired through Rob at Coherent Source and I'm very pleased. Very similar sound with subtle decrease in sibilance. I have not done any REW measurements.

@guy48065

https://web.archive.org/web/20100410171749mp_/http://www.thielaudio.com/THIEL_Site05/Pages/promo_downloads.html#anchorDiscModels

7.0 manual is the last one on this site.