Yes as Tom mentined the room at Thiel was a big room. The amps were the Krell FPB 700CX. A room of that size the bass had plenty of weight with the big Krells.
I was going to go to the "something being wrong with the speakers" as Tom mentioned but you ruled that out.
I've played around with a few of the large Class A amps known to drive the Thiel's. When I tried a smaller amp in that same series, it did not deliver like their larger brothers.
Take the time to work it out and you will be rewarded ten fold.
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thoft,
Its not really the watts as it is the current to handle a load.
A Pass X260.8 is right at that 1000 watts into 2 ohm load. Switching it out to the X600.8 is a very noticable difference especially in the bottom end.
The best test is to see if you can get a loaner amp to try and compare it to the Classe’. If that does not show improvement then you know you need to look elsewhere in the chain. I'd hang onto the Classe' until you work out whats the solution.
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Tom,
"Supporting a CS6 purchase is much costlier than the 2.3."
I can bare witness to the truth in that statement.
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jafant,
Sadly I do not have a system setup. I'm keeping the CS 7.2 as with some effort they are tough to beat even in the 20-30k range.
The Pass Labs will stay as they mate very well with the Thiel's.
From my experience a tube pre amp is a worth while addition. I have a Supratek Grange Signature. You add that 300B mids while maintaining the sparkle on top and the solid bottom end with the Pass. The three are the best synergy I have experienced in a Thiel rig.
At the moment I am looking at DACS in the 10-15k range.
Cabling is a crap shoot. I have quite a few to choose from.
I'm hoping Tom takes the 7.2 crossover on. I want to make them external and replace the internal wiring.
I'm going to sell the CS6 and maybe the CS 2.4SE as my listening room is too large for them.
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Unsound,
XA 200.5 & X600.5 for the CS 7.2
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If members who have Thiel speakers that want another option for an outrigger/base I can offer a group buy for any model as long as the data for each speaker modle is provided.
We do CAD/Modeling to provide illustrion of each model that will be offered.
Large routers and machine centers to manufacture/process.
Aluminum, brass, Panzerholz, etc... material wanted we can do.
Not trying to hijack this thread or Take business from Rob at Coherent if he has out riggers for the other models.
I never seen outriggers for CS 6 or CS 7.2. I'm merely trying to provide a soluion at a real world cost as we are wholesale as we make the parts.
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Halifax,
I will need to digitize the Thiel outriggers and create a CAD model. From there the file will need to be programmed and posted to router. Set up and tooling also. This is all before the part is manufactured.
That time and cost needs to be absorbed in as many units as possible to drive the price down. The CS 2.4 has different screw mounts so that would need to be another CAD.
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Tom,
This is about helping the Thiel community for me so this is an interesting proposal.
Not sure if you want an outrigger or base but can do either or both.
I feel with your design input and Rob as seller the Thiel legacy lives on which appeals to me.
Lets get some ideas for our CS 7.2 also.
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bas79,
Welcome. Very nice set up. You have the same CS 7.2 finish as I do.
Whats your impression of the 7.2?
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bas79,
When you take the time too dial them in you will be rewarded. You would need to spend a considerable amount more to better them.
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Members that want to get themselves a Christmas gift I would encourage you to look at the Pair of Krell FPB 250MC on US Audiomart that have been recapped so good for many years to come.
If you have not heard the Thiel/Krell combo you need to try this pairing as they will do them justice.
Not affiliated with the seller or ever discussed the Krell for sale with seller.
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bas79,
I agree with your observation wholeheartedly. Thats why I decided to keep them. I use Pass Labs X600.5 and XA 200.5.
Tom Thiel has recently acquired these monsteres and hope he will be offing a crossover upgrade for these spesakers. Also wiring and binding post.
I'm going to design a base to fit the CS 7.2 to do them justice.
So with some additional upgrades they will be an incredible value.
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Tom,
Are your CS 7.2 set up yet? I'm interested hearing your experience in your listening room.
I'm building a dedicated listening room at the company with all new dedicated lines.
I have my 7.2 in custom built crates waiting for their new space.
Pulled the trigger on upgrading a front end also.
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Tom,
You cannot have enough power with the 7.2 which is my favorite Thiel speaker.
Please keep us posted as to the amp upgrades. Sounds like a fun project.
We have 5- 600 amp electric panels at the company so pleanty of power on tap.
The plan is to run a 60 amp dedicated sub panel off the main. Between main and sub panel a 15KVA Topaz Isolation transformer will be installed
Each line ran from sub panel to outlet will have its own isolation transformer. For amps I have matching 5KVA Topaz isolation transformers. For digital and pre amp cicuits their own isolation transformer. These will all be located at the sub panel so no noise or hum in the listening room.
2- 240v 20 amp circuits for amps. One for each mono block.
Three additional 20 amp circuits will be ran for pre amp, digital, and possible analog rig.
Running 8awg copper wire to minimize voltage drop.
I understand star quad twisted wire. How would I do this with large gauge wire in insulated jacket?
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Tom,
Like you more projects than humanly possible to tackle.
My thought and experience with the 7.2 it’s more about current than watts. In every scenario I had high current amps I preferred them over high wattage.
Your amps will have a firm grip on The 7.2. The bottom end with the right amp is infectious.
I’ve come up with a design for 7.2 bases that will not raise the height of the speaker but provide a sonic improvement from my experience. I’ll share it with you by sending you CAD/model files.
In listening room I am filling the wall the speaker are behind with lambs wool. I’ll tack a silk black backing over it. I’ll take cabinet grade baltic birch void free plywood and throw it on the router and cut an array of various sized holes and slots throughout the entire sheet. I’ll install and the look will be holes and slots recessed back and highlighted with the black silk material which will absorb the excess energy coming off that wall.
In the corners I will roll lambs wool in 12" diameter roll the length of floor-to ceiling height. I will frame it out and set wool in. I will cut the birch plywood the same as I did the other but these will be curved so it will look pie shaped. They will be built in bass traps.
Natural cedar T&G ceiling with some diffusers is the plan. Western cedar does an amazing job on its on of getting rid of slap echo.
I did a mock up of a very sophicated suspension rack based on a Indy Car front suspension system. The final material will be 25mm Panzerholz for the base.
I always aimed for the fences but some days the mind is willing but the body is weak.
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jafant,
A Bricasti M1 Series II, just released, is on its way.
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jafant,
When I get everything set up I will run through cabling I have. From there I will see what will be an upgrade by trying other cables. I dont like to identify what something is or will be until I have spent time with it.
New room, new power system, different components..etc so I’m sure my cabling will be different.
With the 7.2 I like a 300b tube pre amp that puts a little more meat on the bone in mids.
I’d like to pull the xover out of the 7.2 and make them outboard and upgrade them with better caps and resisters. Also internal cabinet wiring without the use of binding post with drivers wired diectly to crossover.
The two people I know who had 7.2 spent over 60k in both instances to replace them. So to extract a greater sonic gain from them with the above modifications appeals to my senses.
As Tom T noted running 240v, especially to your amps, to drive the big Thiels is a serious upgrade.
Mine are in like new condition. The caveat is I do not like the cherry finish anymore. Once I take crossovers out I will most likely remove the drivers as well and continplate modernizing the cabinets with a high end automotive paint.
I remember talking with Sherri @ Thiel back in the day and she told me Thiel did a special color (pink) for Janet Jackson and a metallic silver for Jerry Steinfeld. True story.
Dont get me wrong the wood gives the Thiel a modern mid century vibe which they are known for.
I think with a high quality automotive satin finish paint, a custom designed speaker base, and an external crossover that goes with the 7.2 would make them look current and difficult to replace without taking out as second mortgage.
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duegi,
If you liked the 2.3 then I can confidently say I believe you will really enjoy the CS6. The bottom end you are lacking in 2.3 you will get in spades with the CS6. They do need a little more room volume and placed off the side walls a little more than its younger sibling.. If you have the space and you dial them in you will be rewarded with a speaker that can deliver.
Get lots of power. The mid sized Krells on the used market, that have been recapped, will not disappoint. FPB 350MCX or 450MCX will pair nicely with CS6.
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The 2.4 on reverb has not been painted by Thiel so approach with caution.
If one was paint Thiel speakers I would think they would preserve the legendary Thiel look. Painting the black baffles white like the rest of the speaker is not a good look. It’s a short cut as you would have to tape in two parts and mix two colors of paint to do it correctly. Short cutting here tells the rest of the story.
Look at the paint in photo below the binding posts. I have factory white Thiel 2.7 and they do not look like this.
They will need to be sanded (Pair on Reverb) and prep’d for paint. Dont skimp on paint quality and get a high grade automotive paint, about $200-$300 per quart. Same for primer. A good epoxy primer would be my choice for first coat.
You will need a pair of coaxial drivers as they look pretty beat up.
The pair for sale I would offer around $1500 as you will have at least $1500 in getiing them to look respectable.
They was a pair of 3.7 on US Audiomart, I believe, that were painted black. It looked like soneone used a paint brush as they looked hideous. They were in CA and I’m on east coast and I could not work a deal to get them to save them. No boxes and an unwillingness from seller to ship closed that door.
My point is Thiel speakers are worth restoring/upgrading. It has been said here and I’ll reinforce that now. "You will spend a significantly amount of money to better them" .
With all the support and upgrade recommendations that Tom Thiel has for these speakers, you will have a clear upgrade path to squeeze greater sonic gain from them.
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jafant,
I know members of this disciussion are good honest people and need to be aware of the pitfalls and look to see if there is water in the pool before diving off the board.
That pair is going to take work to remove that paint and apply a professional paint finish as if it came from Thiel themselves.
Look at the wiring fray at the binding post from pair on Reverb? No care or pride whatsoever. If you are going to do something just do it right or get someone who can.
I’ve mentioned painting cabinets. I’ve held off until I know what other upgrades I will do so it all flows as one cohesive unit.
I do know it will be professionally done in a dust free paint booth with dryer so paint bonds as intended. Thiel did customized colors, as per request from customer, so there are some very different looking colors out there.
I’d take a more concervative approach as to paint scheme but not an off the shelf color.
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Jafant,
What are your thoughts on the red stained birds eye maple finish on the CS 2.4SE?
My understanding on the serial # is it does not matter how low the number is as the internal xover boards are the same as the higher numbered CS 2.4. You mentioned 50/51 so didnt know if you were aware of that.
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jafant,
Well I'm game. I'm willing to take the SE to where Tom believes it can go. Outboards, internal wiring, top level caps and resistors, binding posts, internal cabinet mods if needed. If there was a way to eliminate the binding posts I would go that route.
Maybe a pigtail coming out of the 2.4 SE and hardwired/soldered into outboard. I'd desolder it if I need to move in future. Those brass binding post add a lot of harshness. Giving up the convenience of binding post to have a more purist approach by eliminating them is worth it to me and you get a sonic upgrade that costs nothing.
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Tom,
At first look I thought they where a brass cylinder. then realized they were copper I watched the video. This would seem a much better option than any binding post out there.
On 2.4 (SE) you would need 3 per speaker for each driver.
If members here have never listened to a speaker without binding post and wired directly they will be surprised.
Now you have me thinking from output of amp to input of outboard xover doing the same thing which would eliminate amp binding post and input of crossover. It would also eliminate speaker cable spades/banana connections.
Your thoughts Tom?
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Tom,
Like most things there are trade offs.
The 2.7 are more transparent and dynamic.
The 2.4 are more full bodied in comparison.
I used different amp on each speaker as they brought a different sonic flavor.
My belief is investring in the 2.4 (SE) i would have no need to listen to the 2.7.
I guess thats a double edged sword as if I did that to 2.7 I could say the same thing.
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jafant,
The 2.7 is a gem also. The 2.4 and 2.7 sound very different. So having both is a great option if you can get two separate rooms fitted.
Tom,
I was referencing "cost nothing" doing the soldering/pigtail not the Electra outputs.
The Electra ad an obvious cost especially if used at outboard and amps.
bas79
We have the same finish on our CS 7.2. Glad you figured out a platform for them.
When I get the time I also will be designing and manufacturing a speaker base for them.
Thanks for sharing everyone.
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On the black CS 3.7 I didn't see in ad disclosure the paint was not original nor they were painted by the seller. If that is true then I would ask for paperwork of what company who did the work and what process was followed to finish the CS 3.7.
I'm going to restore some CS6. The process will be documented with paint/clear coat used. If done correctly a pair would cost between $1500-$2000 depending on material chosen and labor.
If you were painting multiple sets of speaker the price would drop significantly.
A few quarts of high quality automotive paint will cost $250-$400. Add all the other necessary materials and you will be at $750-$900 very quickly.
Preparing cabinets and sanding will cost $300-$400 then you have the painting.
My point is if the painting process is done professionally with high quality paint this would increase the value. If done by some obscured person with no paper trail then I would proceed with caution.
In this example if the CS 3.7 are purchased for the asking 4K then I would have them professionally restored around the $1500-$1700 price point which would put you in the $5500-$5700 price point.
Well below the market average and for a mark free cabinet to enjoy and if you sell you have all the paperwork.
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unsound,
I completely agree with that statement. I'm in the professional motorsports business so I was speaking from my experience.
This industry has more than a few highly skilled craftsmen up to the task.
You also validated my point with pair of 3.7 for sale. Who and what method to paint the cabinets were used as Thiel had/has very high standards.
Preparing the cabinets takes the most time to achieve the best paint finish. Most fall short here.
I'm leaning towards a Bentley Snowy Quatrz for my CS6. However, that Bentayga Bronze is calling me also.
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I sure will when I get them done. Right now I'm working on a room for my CS 7.2 and CS5i.
I love the less is better approach Thiel undertook. The mid-century modern look is timeless.
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vair68robert,
Excuse me if I've missed your comment concerning your XO upgrade.
When you changed too 4- 100uf Mundorf caps what improvement did you hear?
Very nice speakers. You'd be hard pressed to find a better speaker under 12K that out performs them.
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vair68robert
Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. I would think any film cap would be better than the 400uf electrolytic cap that was in there.
The large values 220uf and 330uf are tough to find replacements that would fit in the confines of the cabinet.
Was going outboard not an option for you?
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anzen,
For me, after weighing all the options, and outboard crossover makes sense.
Among the benefits choosing a cap based on it's sonics rather than size, inboard needs to fit in speaker cavity, was a large factor for me.
vair68robert,
My error on the Mundorf's as I thought they were film.
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jafant,
I have many oars in the water at the moment but will get there when time presents itself.
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igmaty,
Congrats to your seat at the table. That speaker is a steal on the used market .
My advice would be not to use your current amplification as they will add too much distortion and most likely clip and possibly lose a driver, or two.
Amps worth considering that are within a 2-3k price point are the lower wattage Krell FPB, Pass Labs, Threshold, Classe, Mark Levinson.
I would pass on Bryston as my experience has been they do not mate well together, especially after hearing the list mentioned above.
I’m no expert on this matter but I have owed/own a few Thiel’s and have tried a good bit of the high current amps out there.
Without the right amp the Thiel’s will never move you the way they were intended.
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Out of curiosity how many in this discussion have Thiel CS5i?
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usaltus,
If you mentioned this in this thread already please excuse me for asking if already stated.
What amp(s) are you using to run these power hungry speakers?
Have you compared the CS5 to any other Thiel speakers?
I ask as I like to see if other users have the same experience/opinion(s) as myself.
Finally what finish do you have?
Thanks
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Ironically, it seems like I have a track record of logging in more work hours during this holiday weekend.
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jafant,
Right now I have two pairs of CS5i in dark walnut and Brazilian rosewood. Also I have CS 7.2 in cherry. They will occupy the new listening room in rotation of course.
I miss that bottom end the big Thiel's bring to the table.
I'm working on my front end with Dacs.
I have a Esoteric K-01XD all in one player. A highly modified Wadia 521 from the design gurus that were there before they sold company, A Bricasti M1 Series II, and ordering a Audio Note DAC 4.1x Balanced Signature.
Wadia/Thiels work incredibly well together.
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jafant,
You are not mistaken. I own a white pair of CS 2.7. I also have a pair of CS6 in Zebrawood and a pair of CS 2.4SE.
With the room being built the big Thiels will be getting most of the attention. With that said it will be relatively easy to swap out speakers with any of the others as placement would be fairly close to where the previous pair were.
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Room is slow going as I do as much as I can each day with my heavy work schedule. I feel it will deliver the goods when completed.
With Thiel's most users make the mistake of not having the proper sized room or setting them too close to the walls.
My primary goals are;
1. Proper sized room and design
2. Correct placement of speakers
3. Power. (dedicated panel with iso transformers, copper breakers/bus bar, over sized twisted wire, dedicated outlets.
You will spend less on gear if these are right.
Now I'm not opposed to nice gear in addition to the above either.
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rc1985
if you repair/replace one speaker I'd encourage you to do the same with the other speaker. With the painstaking process Thiel had to match components and drivers, in turn the end user should do the same.
What finish are your speakers?
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Amberwood is my second favorite. Rosewood is my #1 but can inly be found in earlier model as it is near impossible to source enough certified rosewood from Brazil/Boliva.
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