Would you guys quit talking over my head? :) While I don't know the differences in the different types of caps you're talking about it sure makes for interesting reading and I'm learning more all the time.
Aric, I keep forgetting that you're a speaker designer with all we've done together involving amps and preamps. Since I love the look of the giant Duelund caps so much I think I'll make some faux ones to put on my crossover board and use less expensive caps that are actually wired to the speakers....or better yet I'll make my external crossover box look like a huge Duelund cap!
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Thanks corelli,
It will look even better when the brushed aluminum transformer covers are added. While aesthetics are secondary to sonics to me, I love the look of the new amp.
I too enjoy the discussion regarding associated hear driving the DI/SE's. There doesn't seem to be one good or bad way to drive them, just different flavors for different tastes. And yes, dealing directly with the owner/builder that is passionate about their craft is very rewarding.
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Strap a pair of DI's to one of those bikes and you'll get my attention :) |
Thanks for the suggestion gents. I not only ordered the Coltrane/Hartman cd but a bunch of jazz classics from Miles, Cannonball, Mingus, Lee Morgan and both Coltrane and Hartman. Once I finally get all of my new components having new material to listen to will be fun. Picked up a few Bad Plus cd's also. I'm not familiar with them but look forward to doing so.
A totally off topic question here. Has anyone experimented with getting their system off the grid? I ask because I noticed dramatic sound improvements from two components of mine that are.....my CF DAC is battery powered and my Vinnie Rossie power supply to my MZ2 is supposedly off the grid using ultra capacitors to provide current. The noise floor was lowered dramatically allowing the music to shine. Just wondering if the rest of my system would benefit from being off the grid and was wondering if others here had tried doing so. |
Thanks David, I ordered Steve Coleman Live in Paris and Tony Allens The Source.
Corelli, please share that thread and anything else you might find out regarding going off the grid with our systems. I'm thinking that might have more sonic impact than any component might provide.
Thanks Charles, seems like I've been waiting forever for the SE's but hopefully I'll have them real soon. Once Aric recieves the parts needed for my builds I'll have the upgraded 300B and linestage soon also. Can't wait and I'm looking forward to having you back over for a listen once things break in a bit. I should be getting closer to the gorgeous sound of your system! |
Awesome videos bullitt and nitro. One question, where do you put the subwoofers in those cars? 🔉😜🔉
On a different note, my SE's have finally shipped. With the holidays I'm not sure if I'll get them next week or not. They're the closest I'll get to having a race car with their BMW metallic mineral grey finish. I should have gone with the Ferrari red.
I must say say my DI's are sounding better than ever with the Gaia I footers. I'm still amazed at how much they cleaned up the sound. Maybe they are even more effective on my carpet on concrete floors. |
Hey corelli,
From what I understand the Gaia isolation footer drain the vibrational energy from the speakers, diminishing distortion. They don't change the sound signature of the DI's at all, they clean things up allowing their sound to emerge more clearly. It's one of those subtleties that make for a significant improvement. I'm not sure if it's on the level of a crossover upgrade as I've never done one, but it was a very surprising and pleasant improvement.
Adding subs to the DI's/SE's is intriguing. I don't find myself wishing for more bass with the DI's, it would be interesting hearing what a pair of subs might provide. Maybe a pair of Tekton Brisance?
My sentiments exactly David. It's been a pleasure sharing my joy of music and audio with everyone here.....especially in such a cordial and welcoming manner.
Happy Holidays everyone. |
Lance,
I would recommend the Gaia I's with the DI's. I was told by the sales rep that they lose effectiveness at their upper weight limits. Supposedly that's true of all isolation products. I was hoping to get away with the Gaia II's since they're half the price but I'm glad I went with the Gaia I's......especially since I'll move them to the SE's.
Their carpet spikes are one size fits all. They are metal dishes the footers set into with spikes on the bottom. BTW, the footers come nicely boxed with three different sized thread options.....1/4-20 and two larger metric sizes. I'm going to replace the existing 1/4-20 threaded grommets installed into the speaker cabinets with ones that have the largest thread size of the Gaia's. It would be a much more substantial thread size and since 5 of the 8 grommets have already come loose from the speakers I need to remedy that anyways.
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Wish you were near me Captmobley as I'd invite you over to hear the DI's and SE's ......but only if you returned the favor and let me hear your system! I love my 300B but also having a 2A3 and 845 is extreme and totally cool in my eyes.
I agree with corelli that it would be best to hear the DI's in your room with your equipment. I think you'd be very happy with them but after 21 years with the Khorns your ears might having trouble adjusting to something else. The DI's are efficient but not Khorn efficient and that might end up being a deal breaker for you.
Stop it corelli! All your talk of choirs, cathedrals and pipe organs has me yearning for a pair of subwoofers now! :) |
I was under the same impression aniwolfe, but when I went to order the Gaia II's they suggested the Gaia I's as the footer lose effectiveness the closer you get to their upper weight limits. So even though the Gaia II's would technically work for the 106 lb DI's, the Gaia I's will work much better. I guess the less they are compressed the more unwanted vibrations they can deal with.
I agree, properly decoupling the DI's brought about a very pleasant sound improvement that I wasn't expecting. I'm think that being on a concrete floor made the decoupling even more effective?
Those Symposium Rollerblocks seem like a very cost effective alternative. Great point, reducing vibrations within the speaker does improve the crossovers! |
I agree corelli, Brotw helped take some of the mystery on how isolation devices work for me also and I'm experimenting with a few different isolation options.
For my DI's I've tried the Mapleshade Heavyfeet brass carpet spikes and Herbies Giant Threaded gliders before going with the Gaia I's. The first two were much better sounding than the stock spikes but neither come close to the improvements the Gaia's bring to the table IMO.
For my electronic components I've been using the Mapleshade brass Heavyfeet under the components sitting upon their 4" thick maple platform upon their isoblocks. I just ordered a set of four Isoacoustic Isopucks and Symposium Rollerblock Jr's to try in place of either the brass Heavyfeet or the isoblocks. I'll try replacing the Isoblocks first as the theory is that the brass Heavyfeet transmit vibration from the component into the maple platform for it to disappate and the isoblocks isolate the platforms from vibrations from below. At least that's my understanding. So I'll try replacing the isoblock with the other isolation devices first to see if I hear a difference so as not to disrupt Mapleshades process. Then I'll try replacing the brass Heavyfeet with the new isolators. Might isolators above and below the maple platforms work even better? Time will tell.
Thanks to aniwolfe for mentioning the Symposium Rollerblock Jr's, they're quite interesting. FWIW I went with the HDSE option. |
It sure makes things confusing bliptrip. I was all set on buying the Gaia II's when calling Music Direct. From what I gathered talking to the tech rep is that the Gaia II's will work with the DI's.......just not as effectively since they would be compressed so much they wouldn't be able to disappate vibrational energy as well. He wasn't pushing to sell the Gaia I's so much as he was explaining that isolation devices as a whole don't perform as well at their upper weight limits. I certainly didn't want to spend the extra money on the Gaia I's but after hearing them on the DI's I'm glad I did.
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Well......my 300B is back with Aric getting a whole new face lift and some other enhancements while he's building a matching Linestage to go along with it. I'll have to heat them with the KT 120 for now 🔥 🔉 |
My SE's finally arrive tomorrow afternoon. I hope to get them in place and hooked up tomorrow but it will be quite a while before I'll be able to properly evaluate them. Since we are experiencing single digit temperatures here, it may take them a day just to thaw out! :) |
You both went the cryo route! :)
Corelli, im hoping for a possible synergy between the pre and amp since they will be built together and from the same components. The MZ2 will be difficult to top though. |
Thanks for such a complete and well stated review David. I hope you enjoy many, many hours of musical enjoyment from your SE's.
While le I have nothing to report on the SE's sonics I can say they are gorgeous speakers. As David stated the fit and finish is exceptional. The BMW metallic mineral gray I had my painted in is gorgeous. In a dark room like mine the true beauty of the color doesn't get to show its true colors.....I just might have to install some spotlights on them to show its full potential. Vain, I know :) The woofers look much more substantial than the DI's, I like the look of the domed tweeters. I know, many don't like their looks but I do!
I too have many to thank in helping me make this purchase. First and foremost Mike Kay of Audio Archon whom I purchased them through. His audio knowledge is only surpassed by his patience in putting up with my impatience:) To teajay for his reviews of the DI's, SE's and Ulfbehrts along with the LTA, Aric Audio, Concert Fidelity and CEC gear I now have in my system. To David has been so kind in lending his expertise and appraisal of the SE's. To Charles for opening my ears to what a SET amp can provide along with his encouragement, advice and so many others here that have given or offered help on just about everything audio.
btw......I'm listening to the SE's for the first time. I want my DI's back! What do you mean that I can't fully assess a speaker after a whole 3 minutes with them? :)
They sound just I thought they would tonight.....like brand new speakers that spent all day in a truck with temperatures in the single digits. Right out of the box they sound nice but have a lot of loosening up to do.....obviously. They will be playing for 12-14 hours a day for the next week or two! They should have a hundred hours on them by the time I get my 300b back. I'm looking forward to that. |
While I'm only 20 hours in with the SE's they sound incredible. They do everything I like about the DI's......only better. One of the many aspects of the DI's I loved was how they disappeared into a wall of sound. The SE's wall of sound is deeper, wider and filled with more air. The SE's excel in tone, texture, detail, refinement and realism. They aren't fully broken in yet but I'm thoroughly enjoying them nonetheless.
The bass hasn't fully filled in yet but like the DI's I'm sure it will within 2-4 weeks. Vocals have a slight harsh edge to them but that is diminishing seemingly by the hour. At first I thought the SE's might be a bit too refined....too polite sounding, but switching from TungSol BGRP 12SN7's to 40's Sylvania's in the mz2 sure changed that. It woke the SE's up making them as lively sounding as the DI's but with more refinement. It's quite spectacular sounding.
The DI's are wonderful speakers and if not for my respect of teajay's and Mike Kay's audio prowess and their glowing reviews of the SE's I would have been very happy staying with them. I'm so glad I listened to their advice and ordered the SE's though. I can only imagine how much better they will sound with more time on them and with my 300B when I get it back. They've made this a great start to the New Year! |
Thanks Charles,
I should have my 300b back the end of next week, hoping you'll have time afterwards to come have a listen.
Im interested in whether the synergy between the 300B and matching linestage will outperform the 300B with the MZ2. The MZ2 will be hard to beat but it's a real win for me if Aric's linestage beats it out. |
That had to be fun David. Thankfully the Ulfs aren't an option for me with my low ceilings as I can't afford to spend any more money on audio for a while! :)
Congrats premnath, you're in for a lot of musical fun. They are sounding better and better every day for me
I have the SE's very slightly toe'd ......probably 5 degrees or so. Placement is pretty much the same as I had the DI's. 6' o.c. and pretty close to the one third placement. I never intended the one third placement it just worked out that way. I'm a foot further back than an equilateral triangle with my listening position 7' from the speakers. In my room that placement has worked best for me but I've been experimenting with different listening positions....from 5-10' away....and I seem to come back to the 6-7' distance.
Im still getting used to the SE's. TwIce yesterday I got up to investigate what was making noises behind me......it was the music! |
Toe'd out? I never considered that, or even heard of it. Seems like there would be a lot more room reflections. I'll give it a try though. |
Thanks jayctoy, I appreciate your input. I'll definitely give it a try tonight......even though I'm not looking forward to moving those beasts! About how far do you have them toe'd out? 5-10 degrees?
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So true Charles. Being that my room is symmetrical and treated might make it a perfect candidate for this type of speaker positioning. I look forward to hearing about prenmaths, jayctoys and anyone else trying this experiences and room conditions.
Tom |
Thanks premnath and jayctoy, I'm listening to the SE's slightly toe'd out right now. My initial impressions are quite favorable. I figured the center would collapse, but not the case. The speakers disappear even more. I'll experiment with differant listening positions but about 8' away sounds damned good right now. Thanks again for that easy and for once no cost tweak! |
Hey Charles,
Thanks and I agree, let ones ears determine what is best for oneself. You’re also correct that it’s a no brainer to at least try it, it’s the cheapest change I’ve made to my system yet 🤑 I’m glad it was Eric that originally suggested it or I probably wouldn’t have tried it. I’ll experiment further with listening position tonight. Moving about two feet further from the speakers than I was before has improved things a bit further yet. When you come over to hear the new system, no making fun of my speakers pointing the wrong way....lol.
Tom |
Yes Bill, crazy as it sounds! I've been listening to it this way for almost an hour now and am really liking it. Now, I have a symmetric dedicated room with quadratic diffusers to the sides, behind and above me so that might help but believe it or not the center imaging not only didn't collapse but it's deeper and more open now.... with a wider, more embracing soundstage. Goes against convention but it's working great for me so far. Who'd have thunk it? |
You are probably right Bill. It totally goes against convention but I'll keep enjoying it for now. Jayctoy is having success toeing his Impact Monitors out also. The mad speaker scientist Eric might be onto something here! 🔉🔉 |
Makes sense Bill. I only have about 50 hours on the SE's right now. They are coming along quite nicely but need much more time to really fill in. I'm enjoying hearing their seemingly daily improvements. Becoming much more dynamic, smooth and silky all the time.
Your hearing is more astute than mine but I do hear the slight drop in between the speakers ( or is that due to the speakers not being broken yet?) but I'm enjoying the space toeing out creates. I guess a slight out of phase sound is right but until you mentioned it I didn't realize it.
I have them with no toe in right now and the middle has a bit more weight now. I will try going back to my normal slight toe in later. It's all pretty academic for me as the speakers aren't broken in yet but it's fun experimenting. Once I get about 200 hours on them I'll try this all again and see what I find.
Youre correct, this is a nice, easy and no cost option for anyone to try and with anything will be room/speaker/personal preference/system dependent.
Tom |
Aren't we fortunate to have so many good speaker choices? I feel fortunate to have owned many very special speakers over the years but none have brought me as much musical enjoyment as the DI's......until now that is,as the SE's have taken things to yet another level. While I'm sure my SE's aren't fully broken in yet I feel I have a good handle on their attributes after about 100 hours on them. Initially I could tell they were sonically superior to the DI's in all of the normal audiophile qualities but they seemed to be slightly less emotionally and engaging than the DI's. I no longer think that's the case. As the SE's have settled in I find myself more engrossed in the music than ever. I'm thinking that will take another step forward when my Aric Audio 300B is back in my system tomorrow. Seems like all I've been doing is waiting for the last four months for my system to finally come together.....probably because that's how long it's taken for my SE's then my 300B to get here! 😀 As impatient as I am, the wait has been well worth it.
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I purchased my SE's through Mike at Audio Archon and would highly recommend anyone to do so.
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Does the MZ power light come on? If not, maybe a blown fuse? |
Like David, I find that the SE's are even more revealing of whatever is upstream of them than the DI's.......and yes, that's saying something. They also take much longer to break in than DI's, but it's a wait well worth it.
Ive settled on the Aric Audio amp and preamp......his 12SN7 Linestage and custom 300B SET. Both units were built using his new upgraded brushed aluminum chassis and Audyn True Copper caps. They look great and sound even better. The linestage is very transparent with a butter smooth naturalness about it. The 300B is emotes power, dynamics and realism. The overall presentation with both pieces with the SE's is one of clarity and detail, proper tone and pace, speed, refinement and musicality. The soundstage doesn't just extend from wall to wall but encompasses the listener. That wall of sound I love so much about the DI's extends even further around me, it's eerie at times hearing things behind you. Bass is deep, control and abundant....which can really thump you in the chest when needed. Mids are silky smooth, so real and natural that you'd swear the performer was in the room with you. Highs are airier than ive heard with added textures than I'm used too. You not only distinctly hear the differences in metal instruments there's an added dimension making them sound fantastically real.... i.e. I swear you'd be able to tell if cymbals or triangles were made of different metals.
As as with the DI's there are many component options that will work well with the SE's to provide the sound you're looking for. I'm now convinced I need a second amp to compliment my 300B......maybe a bada$$ powerful push pull or SS amp as a change of pace for times when I want the added grip upon the drivers and headroom these amps provide. The 300B is sublime for the 90-95% of the music I enjoy but no one amp that I've heard can provide everything I desire for all types of music.
Ive been asked are the SE's really worth the extra $3500? Actually, it's only $2200 more if you get the upgraded DI's in the same automotive paint that comes standard with the SE's. Either way my answer would be.......hell yes! That's not implying the DI's are less worthy, they are a very formidable speaker that I'd have been very happy with for a very long time. The SE's just take what the DI's provide taken up a notch or two. As much as I don't look forward to selling my DI's ( Ive grown quite attached to them!) I'm very happy that I took the plunge with the SE's. |
Thanks Charles, I have one more change to make next week and then we need to schedule a time for you to come over for another listen. I'll be texting you soon to set something up......so get some CDs ready to bring over! Actually it will be more exciting for me to have you come take a listen than it will be for you as you've had your amazing system to listen to for years. I've modeled my system after yours and am very happy with the results. Thanks for the inspiration! |
Corelli,
I don't think Aric has pics of the upgraded chassis on his site yet. I have a pic of it on my system page here.
I sold my MZ. Even though it's an amazing preamp it didn't work out with the new 300B. Maybe it's an impedence issue? It made the 300B sound anemic. Since Aric's 300B and linestage sound so good together there was no reason for me to hang onto the MZ.
Please keep us updated on the subs. I've wondered what a pair of Tekton Brisance subs would sound like with the SE's. The Hsu subs would be much easier to fit into the room though.
My my vote is to go black with the room treatments. Black goes with everything, right? |
Just to clarify the MZ sounded amazing with my Aric KT 120 amp. It was full of life, energy, speed and dynamics. For some reason when paired with Aric's 300B it lacked all of those qualites and sounded anemic to me. Your description of anemic matched what I was trying to convey Charles. I thought it was the amp at first and was quite disappointed. Aric suggested that I connect the 300B directly to my DAC and sure enough the 300B came back to life. When Aric's linestage arrived a few days later it sounded glorious with the 300B
You're right Charles, I had forgotten about how lifeless the MZ sounded in your system and that's exactly how it sounded with my 300B. Maybe it's an impedence mismatch? By itself or with my KT 120 I though the MZ sounded great yet with both our 300B's not so much. Synergy plays a big role in a systems sound as shown here.
As to David's point that this anemic sound I referred to is more than just a personal preference, I would agree with that. To me it's both a matter of a real drop off in sound and what ones preference in sound is. The lack of energy, life, sparkling highs and dynamics was real but I'm sure there are some that might prefer that. I'm certainly not one that would though!
This is yet another example of how frustrating this hobby can be. Wouldn't it be so much easier if components always played nice with one another? 🔉😃🔉
Tom |
Oh David, I envy your food world in the big easy. Never have I tasted so many delicious dishes while visiting there. Add that to the great music, festive atmosphere, interesting architecture and history and I'll be sure to visit again.
Music and cuisine are quite similar, they both combine science and art to appease our senses.
Tough rooster though? It better be braised in lots of burgundy! 🍷🐓 |
Thanks corelli, Aric really came through with the new upgraded chassis. They're not only better looking but are much more substantial and sturdy. And yes, most importantly they sound exceedingly good. |
Live acoustical music is my fav and one of the reasons I enjoyed my time in New Orleans so much. There were musicians performing at practically every street corner. While reproducing the sound of such live music isn't possible IMO getting as close to it as I can is my goal. Maybe I should just move to New Orleans, forgo having an audio system and sit on Bourbon Street all day listening to live performers while enjoying gumbo!
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Grannyring, have you an experience with the cables Western Electric is selling? They have from 8-24 gauge I believe. It's newly made but made by Western Electric. I came across it when looking at their 80th anniversary re-issue 300B tubes set to come out this September. |
Hey Bill, at www.westernelectric.com they have the WE KS-13385 wire from 2-28 gauge. If you go to PRODUCTS then COMPONENTS you'll find it. While at the site check out their WE 300B Monoblocks with eight 300B's per channel. I like their vintage looks with huge meters on the faceplate. Too bad that at $50k/pair they are way out of my range! |
Grannyring, I could have sworn they sold the WE wire by the foot, but I just see 100' roll pricing now. They have pics of smaller runs so it might be possible to buy in smaller lengths. I too like the Duelund wire and if they come out with a 10 gauge I'll give it a try. As much as I liked the WE 14ga when I used it I prefer my Cerious Technologies GE speaker cables and I'm sure the larger gauge has a lot to do with it. Comparing the CT to Duelund 10ga would be interested.
Thanks for the link of the wire connectors. Bare wire connections on the DI speaker posts isn't easy. |
I too love all this thread has had to offer. It's great hearing from so many different people driving their DI's with many different components and also how they can be modified. I love the IDEA of the modifications but don't trust my skills ( or lack thereof) to implement them. I'm loving the SE's so much I'll sit back and enjoy them as they are for now. I do thank Grannyring for sharing his knowledge and for being so generous in helping others.
jcarcopo....now that was one crazy looking speaker that would be interesting to hear. Thanks for sharing the link. |
Hey teajay, were they listening to the DI's or the SE's? I'm sure SI's was a typo, but who knows maybe it's a new hybrid of the DI and SE :) |
I hear you teajay, while I've owned some very good speakers none were in the $20k price range..........and thankfully with the SE's I'll never have to spend that much! |
Doing modifications to speakers is a total waste of time.......only because I haven't gotten up the nerve to do it myself yet! 🔉😀🔉
I actually think the idea of upgrading the crossovers on my SE's is a great one, I just need to find a pair of cheap speakers to experiment on first. If I was more capable I'd be working on it now but I can't bring myself to pull apart my new speakers. I will someday though.
I give much thanks to Bill for his knowledge, inspiration and guidance. |
Dave,
Thanks for that wonderfully detailed, descriptive and insightful review of David's system. I hope I'm fortunate enough on my next visit to NO that I get the pleasure of meeting David and hearing his system.
I am really enjoying my SE's driven by Aric Audios linestage and 300B SET but would love to hear what a Pass amp would bring to the table also. Maybe the XA-25 teajay is loving so much.
Im glad to hear your take on their bass. I don't have nearly as many hours on my SE's as David does and while I can't say there really anything lacking in he low end I've been feeling there's more to come and your impressions give me hope that there is.
Its always a pleasure sharing ones system with likeminded others and hearing their systems as well. As much as I've gained from reading this thread nothing compares to actually hearing other systems in order to open your aural horizons and bring to light equipment options you would have never contemplated otherwise.
Thanks again for your impressions,
Tom
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Brian,
Like you I've had nothing but great experiences dealing with Aric. Your preamp should be amazing. The single chassis 6SN7 linestage he built for me sounds great but yours should take things to a whole new level. Congrats. Please post pics when you can. While I'm very happy with the Audyn True Copper caps he used in my linestage and amp but your Jupiter and Duelund PIO caps should be really special. Enjoy!
Tom |
Can't wait to see pics of the Motherode Aric. I don't know what a tube regulated power supply is but it sounds cool to me. Can't ever have enough tubes if you ask me.
I wish I understood how gain affects how amps and pre amps worked together better......that's one of the reasons I had Aric build my preamp and amp together, to avoid having to worry about such issues. I know this much I can't turn the volume knob much over 9 o'clock without it become too loud for me.
Brian, you're right the preamp and amp Aric built me sound fantastic......if only they had a cool name like Motherlode! Lol. I'll call the preamp Moe and the amp Foe. What a pair they make 😀
On a different note, great call teajay, Steve Winwoods Greatest Hits Live is a keeper. Ben Harper and the Innocent Criminals is another new fav of mine.
Tom |
Charles,
I'll have you look at it soon. I'm hoping to have the kitchen back together this weekend after having to rip drywall out to repair plumbing ( being under the weather today didn't help) I'll finally be ready to have you over for a listen and we can discuss then. Right now there's no way I'd get to 10 o'clock on my VC without earplugs. Never thought I'd have to think about lowering gain with an 8 watt amp.....lol.
Tom |
Lol Aric, see how much I trust you by giving you free reign on designing my gear? Little did I know I had a tube regulated power supply. Brian still hit the Motherlode with that name though! 😃
All of the discussion on gain might make me gain some insight on preamp/amp interaction. Aric's predilection for Zepplin and Pearl Jam explains his propensity for higher gain 😈🔉🔉🔉🔉 With my speakers I can't come anywhere close to 10 o'clock on the VC. 9 o'clock is quite loud on most recordings with 8:30 being where I usually listen at. I can see where have less gain I would have a wider spectrum on the VC to choose from. I'll look into a Rothwells attenuator to experiment with.
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Thankfully Aric already had a solution built into my amp......a gain control. I had forgotten about it. Just by turning the gain down has given much more volume control and range. I'm listening comfortably at 11 o'clock right now. Good deal! |
