Tekton Double Impacts

And thanks for bringing Mike Kay's power cables to our attention. His cables are getting positive play in another thread I'm following and it's beneficial to get your take on them.

@james_w514  and @evolvist:

I'm also a Focal Utopia owner, though I've never driven them with a tubed system. At some point, I will pick up a tubed headphone amp for the Utopias. I'm driving them with a HeadAmp GS-X Mk2. Any recommendations?

Nick, I get what you are saying. The Focals gave me a benchmark for what a reference system could be and they've helped me better and more completely understand my sound preferences. They have been exceptionally educational for me.

Like the Double Impacts, the Utopias are very telling of what's ahead of them, AND, both the Double Impacts and Utopias are scaling champs.

James, that is QUITE A STATEMENT: "For the first time in this hobby I was left with the sense of fear that I would still listen to the Tekton’s over a much pricier speaker..."

Congratulations on going with the Ulf Minis. I'm sure many, including myself, look forward to your comparison of the Mini Ulfberths with the Double Impacts.

At this point, it looks like members who are moving forward with the Ulfs are mainly going with the Mini Ulf? Is that correct?  

Reasons / Rationale other than size and price, for doing so over the fuller sized Ulfs?

Thanks.

@vitop   Vito, thanks and I very much understand since your are bringing in so many speakers.

I'm just curious about the rationale of folks who have gone with the Ulf Minis vs the Ulfs, since most are purchasing sight unseen and sound unheard.

Size and cost are definitely going to be a factor. My curiosity is regarding the other factors folks are using in making a decision.

@james_w514  Thanks. That's understandable. I'm all about blocking the light...but that's likely because of the heat it generates the ~1000 or so miles south of you! : )

@evolvist  Your explanation helps a lot and I have a much better understanding of how you've approached it. Thanks!

@pts   You may want to reach out to Eric as well. He may have sold some DIs within the greater Los Angeles region. That's where I'd start. 

@pts  You are a good man! Good of you to do so with your family's full involvement!

Most guys would go behind their back. : ) 

"60 Days in a Motel" sounds like a movie title! : )

+1 @bullitt5094  @evolvist @james_w514   This is very similar to what other direct to end user speaker manufacturers are doing. So Tekton isn't the only one.

With my recent Pass amp purchases, I have to pick up shipping and insurance both ways and it's only a 14 day trial. For the 30.8 that was around $200 for a very short trial...realistically only about 5 days at full on performance, post run-in guidelines. 

Tekton's offer is far superior. 60 days is generous. 30 days is the norm.

 And there are no restocking fees, which some are starting to add...and which I understand and agree with since there is a very real added cost at the manufacturer's end.

For those into numbers....even if one factors in a very generous 10% return rate as a general speaker return rate, the up front real cost of the risk is around $30 for taking that chance.  I'm being very simplistic here. (Factor in some other variables, and it drops even further).

It really is a no-brainer of a deal. I'd take it for just the learning opportunity.

@teajay   Terry: Thank you once again for your ongoing contributions to this thread and now the overview of your findings about the Ulfberths at the beginning of your evaluation.

I purchased the Double Impacts immediately after reading your review the day it was published...and have not regretted that 'oh so quick' leap of faith that I'm generally much more careful with. So thank you again, personally, for all of the joy these speakers have brought me and to my home.

Are you able to provide us with more detail about your current entire system, beyond the preamp and amp, so we can get a feel for it?  This would be very helpful...like the note about using the Sistrum Platforms.

- David.

@teajay   Thank you for sharing the details on your system. Very helpful.

@brotw 

Brody, I encourage you to keep an open mind on possibly going solid state....there are many paths to getting to where you want to: tubed, solid state or hybrid. 

Right now I'm listening to Steve Coleman's 'Invisible Paths' on an all solid state system....and the results are absolutely fantastic. Especially wonderful since it's before the household is up (and all is quiet). 

I read your earlier posts and questions. I have heard Line Magnetic products while demoing speakers. I have not heard the LTA, Triode, or Decware products, etc. All are roundly praised. I'd add Melody to your list if you decide to go tubed and integrated.

My advice is not component specific. I'd say to go with the best integrated you can swing per your budget and move to separates when you are able to and have a much better feel for how to best create the synergy you are looking for, from the DIs at the end of your system chain. If you are playing a wider genre of music, the additional power you mention will come handy and deliver.

I'd put the savings (from one less component and PC and IC) towards a really good power cord and an effective platform and footers for your component. I believe what's done on the periphery of a system is as important as the component.

@bullitt5094  It's great that you have the opportunity allowing for @evolvist and @vitop to audition your new equipment and provide feedback, etc.

In this case, I think it's easy for Klaus to 'swear' : )  Since it isn't close to being a fair 'fight' with your Denon pre. 

Looking forward to hearing about how it all works out within your system!

@teajay   Since you brought up a warmed cast iron pan with melting butter....

Add sugar and cinnamon, banana liqueur, bananas, rum. Flambe'

Serve the banana pieces with scoops of ice-cream and the warm sauce.

A Brennan's of New Orleans original!

@wschee    

Yes, to your question:  Does anyone listen to large scale orchestral music with DI?  I would say the DIs are quite classically qualified. : )

@teajay   In your opinion, what are the likely reasons for the lower noise floor?

Hey David-ten,

I agree with what Kenny said about more drivers lowering the noise floor.  I would add by using much higher parts in the crossover, higher grade drivers, and an the heavier/thicker construction of the overall cabinet are contributing to the total transparency/clarity in the Ulf's performance.

@teajay   Thank you for answering my question and your explanation. Appreciate it!

@evolvist  Pass Labs also recommends using their stock power cord from the XA30.8 amp direct into the wall.

@mykeryte  Thanks for sharing your findings with Mike's power cords. Very Helpful!

@grey9hound   Congratulations! Looking forward to hearing what you think of your new speakers. Does Ferrari Red speed up the sound waves?

@sekollera  Go with the 4ohm DIs.  In other words, follow Kenny! : )

James, let her know you are holding out for her colour choice when you add the bro Ulf to the collection. :)

@cal3713  Perhaps our local to this thread Frankenstein expert can offer his expert opinion? I think I can hear the keyboard strikes.....  : )

@kdude66   Kenny, Minis keep resurfacing. Originally firmly in fashion in the 1960s. They have shown up from time to time. Mid late 80s through the early 90s. Then again around '03 '04.  Based on history, a reappearance is likely, though when is a good question. All bets are off, if part of the gyaru subculture...though Utah isn't considered a hotspot.

@333jeffery  Thanks for sharing.

@almarg   Wonderful post. Thanks. Very informative. 

2000 Posts!

@333jeffery Please do bother. And I mean that sincerely. Your thoughts on this topic are important. And learning is a two way street. Can you share more about why you have chosen the speaker placement that you have?

I’m lucky in that my wife hasn’t pushed back on the size of the DIs, their look, or their now better placement out (somewhat) in the room. I know she isn’t crazy about these three things, but has managed to keep her peace.

Ideally, and as many have already similarly commented, I’d have the DIs (and most speakers, but especially those that are rear ported) way out in the room without anything between them. Just two speakers with the appropriate wall treatments to optimize the room. Speakers shine this way. They relax and breathe and open up. It’s like being given a new lease on life and one can imagine them jumping in joy because they are so happy and grateful for it.

Since @james_w514 has agreed to do the against the wall test, I’d encourage you to try your Ulfs out in the room free from the cabinet and walls. Should be easy enough to do and get a feel for what differences (if any) you are able to hear. You’ve got a great system with high end components feeding the Ulfs.

Eric was very clear in his communication to me, and has been consistent in his comments on not needing the DIs that far from the wall. I imagine he feels the same about the Ulfs.

I started closer to the wall and then chose a spot that is a tradeoff but does offer better placement (about 3.5 feet from the front wall). My room remains untreated (still waiting on the renovation to be completed...lots of delays) but I do have very thick and absorbent drapery on two chairs about 2 feet behind the ports.

Like James, I will also test, closer to the wall, when I need to move stuff around in the system. And then with the speakers pulled out into the room much more so than they are now. All this talk on placement has me interested on rechecking now that my system is fully broken in across the board. My experience tells me what the results will be...but I’m open to checking on this possible bias.

[PS. I’ve tried to post a pic of my system in the Agon system page but the handshake with the Agon photo loading software and Google Photos isn’t happening].

I'm going to come straight out and say that I value and appreciate what @teajay  wrote about speaker placement.

I view Terry's contributions to this thread as a remarkable gift...few reviewers are as active here on Audiogon, and fewer still are as open as he is here on Audiogon. He willingly offers his take on things, responds to our questions and is reachable, if need be, on topics and issues related to, and even those unrelated to, the topic of this thread.

His points on speaker placement  and performance are spot on and helpful and I didn't find his language ill chosen; in fact; I found it sensitive and soft enough.

As I said in my earlier post, learning is a two way street.

Terry, if the opportunity arises and you need to kick me in the you know where...please feel comfortable doing so...the pain will be fleeting, but the learning just may be lifelong!

@yakbob You landed on the thread at a good time : )

That is, if you want feedback on close placement to the wall!

Page 40 and 41 of the thread have some vigourous coverage of this very topic.

@lmswjm Thanks for your recommendation. I will check his harpsichord recording out.

I listen to a lot of solo string performances, and stringed instruments are rendered gloriously as well.

Funny, Kenny...I've been doing the same this morning. My post on this to follow.

Ok, so in living up to my word on testing the DIs up against the front wall and then out in their ’regular’ position.....

Please know that these findings are based on a relatively quick test to answer a question and/or an unknown for me, based on the back and forth in this thread on the DIs performance closer to the front wall or further out from it.

I’ll repeat the placement test again in a couple of days to see if my first test findings change, or not.

NOTE, NOTE, NOTE: !!! I am not trying to stir up any waters or participate in a speaker placement battle. I’m not saying that one is right or wrong. I realize we all have our unique room and other ’environmental’ issues to deal with. !!!

-----------------------------
Music used:

J. S. Bach: 6 Suites for Solo Violoncello by Mischa Maisky (Prelude and Allemande)
and
You Don’t Know What Love Is by Cassandra Wilson off of her Blue Light ’Til Dawn album.
-----------------------------

The Double Impacts were placed 6 inches from the front wall, 9 feet apart (center to center), with no toe in. There is bare wall behind the ports and the edge of a window about halfway on-up relative to both of the DIs (the room is symmetrical). The ports were left as is.

My seating distances were identical in distance from both speaker positions. I did move around to see if another seating position would be more beneficial for the ’against the wall’ arrangement.

Listening was done at my normal-critical listening level...around 85-90db.

Speakers in both setups were 9 feet apart to keep the set-apart distance the same (my normal position is just over 8 feet apart).

Differences between the two setups:

1. there is a low (26 inches tall) and long (84 inches) wood media console directly between the speakers when in the up-against-the-wall placement.

I’m sure this has an impact, but for those of you choosing to place the speakers up against the wall...it’s probably a likely condition in your setups. In the out-in-the room setup, the media console’s front edge is just behind the back sides of the speakers (by a couple of inches).

2. I have heavy and absorbent draperies on two chairs set about 2 feet behind each speaker in my ’regular’ speaker setup.
-------------------------------

The GOOD NEWS:

Bottom line, the DIs performed quite well up against the wall.

From memory, they beat my previous speakers set up in a more ’optimal’ position (with the exception of bass). I believe this has to do with the design of the upper half of the DIs and also because the music I chose is mostly covered by the ’upper half’ drivers.

One important note is that my current system is significantly higher in quality than when my former speakers were in rotation (so keep that in mind...a former-orange to now current-apple comparison).

The reason this comparison is valuable because I believe: IF, folks have a similar positional setup with their former speakers and the other elements in the chain remain the same....

....I’m fairly confident in saying that they are likely to obtain much better sound out of the DIs up against the wall (vs their previous speakers in the same position). In other words, I think one’s previous reference point is going to be a factor here.
---------------------------------

The BAD NEWS:

In broad brush strokes, this was an illumination of a reversal in what we music lovers and audiophiles are normally chasing. Less, rather than More.

Bass suffered. It was muddier and flatter.
Air and decay were not as ’beautiful’ sounding.
Cassandra’s voice lacked vitality vs my ’regular’ speaker position.
Soundstage was not as precise or focused.
The leading edge of notes were not as sharp.
Tone and timbre were not as palpable.
There was less energy to the music.


Overall, I missed the musicality and energy of, the emotional connection to, and the shear beauty of the music I know IS possible and present in the ’regular’ placement position.
-------------------------------

FINAL POINTS:

If out in the room placement is an impossibility, I think one can still bring more out of the DIs...though (by my estimation) they will still not be as optimal sounding as when pulled out into the room and optimized to ones ears.

I believe that some of these issues can easily be addressed if one has to place the speakers up against the wall. For example, the ports could be damped/plugged. One could put the speakers up against a bass trap / other type of panel. And certainly, if possible, the console or any other ’stuff’ in between the speakers can be eliminated.

What I personally learned from this is that the DIs, when placed up against the wall, still perform well and will likely be superior to other rear ported speakers, especially when they are also placed in a similar position...all other things being equal.

The other take-away for me is that I now know that the Double Impacts MAY BE VIABLE for my usage in my secondary system as well, which is a smaller room and one in which I would need the speakers to be much closer to the front wall; SHOULD I BE ABLE TO tweak and customize the room treatment appropriately. This in itself, is good news for me!

@paradisle  Congratulations on your DIs and the pairing with your new Nova300 integrated. Great to hear that you are really happy with your purchases.

Consider yourself very lucky if it's only a rabbit hole...Warning...mostly black holes out there in the Audio Way wilderness, all of which initially look like manageable ones made by cuddly bunny wabbits. : )

@terpstation  

Seating 7 to 8 feet from the center is not 'too close.'

I'm getting good results in a 6 ft to 12 ft seating position range with the DIs being just over 8 ft apart. Ideal in my setup is about 8 to 9 feet away.

A shout out to the greater Houston and southern / coastal Texas members to stay safe and out of harms way.

Thanks for your listening session updates and findings. And YES, it's a pleasant diversion to be focused on the positive. Appreciate it!

@porscheracer  One which hasn't been mentioned, and is one I strongly considered, is Backert Labs.

If you are open to solid state, you may also consider the SST Thoebe II. 

The Pass Labs XA 30.8 and the LM 508ia would be a compelling comparison.  Both are considered to be excellent yet presumably with distinctly different presentations.

 
@charles1dad   "Distinctively different presentations" How so?

Thanks.

@charles1dad 

Charles, Thank you for the explanation and specifics.

How would you predict the sonic outcomes (in differences) based on the 5 design differences you list?

Thanks.

@porscheracer  Any finalization on the preamp choice, now that you've received a number of suggestions?

@snopro   Thank you so much for your honest feedback on the MZ2S' performance for you. It's very helpful and I for one am glad you posted in the face of very strong support for this preamp in this thread. 

@333jeffery  Thanks for posting the video. The clarity is so much better with this one and the sound as well. Those Carver (?) amps  look sweet...are you still using them or have the BHKs taken over? 

Look forward to hearing how the Allnic and BHK preamps compare!

@snopro Thanks for sharing your impressions of the Coincident Frankenstein and the Pass XA 30.8. I’ve had the 30.8 in my system for about a month now, so your take on it is especially helpful and relevant to me.

When I hear about tone and timbre, little bells go off, akin to feeling fleeting butterflies in one’s stomach. I have not yet figured out why this is so, but the best I’ve come up with is that tone and timbre are among the most subjectively important aspects of music. Please know that though the previous sentences were triggered by your post this is a genuinely general reaction of mine and I’ve pondered about asking the same when similar topics have come up in the past.

Does this make sense? Perhaps you and others can elaborate? Thank you very much.

@charles1dad   

Charles,

As always, you are informative and enlightening!  Thanks for the additional clarification.

The 3 dimensional presentation, I believe, is much easier to get agreement on. Having come from tubed systems in the past, I easily get this aspect of tubed amps like the Line Magnetic. However, the same concerns apply with respect to tone and timbre. Any guidance or thoughts in this regard?

@charles1dad  and @kdude66 

Thank you for your detailed and thoughtful responses. I need to push myself with educational research on the topic.

My gut response is that these issues are much bigger than just what our ears hear.  I believe there is much higher end processing going on (beyond the physics of the sound wave as it enters the ear canal) and when the emotional connection aspect is introduced I would say things become oh so complicated. I believe it becomes about sensory pleasure, again beyond and certainly not limited to just one sense, in this case hearing. 

For me, it is easier to accept that SETs are perceived as, or believed to be, more pleasurable to an individual (they certainly have been for me) vs being 'better' or having 'the edge' with tone / timbre.  For me, the tone / timbre 'thing' remains highly elusive. 

Hi Charles, Your additional perspective is appreciated.

Unfortunately I did not have the opportunity to audition or demo the Pass XA 30.8 prior to purchase. But in the case of the 30.8, it's been out for a few years and extensively reviewed and discussed. Definitely not the leap that some gear can be.

Kenny was very helpful in my evaluation of First Watt vs the .8 series. He, as you and others here at Agon know, is a certified First Watt Head.

Though he didn't succeed in walking me to First, he did throw a strike when I got to the fork with a choice on either side. : )  The Dutch are still pissed off, but I don't think they are that into baseball.

As to " easily pass[ing] [no pun intended] the realistic/-believable tone/timbre test" I'm not sure. Which is my point. I would say the same of the Franks or the MZ2S Triode 2A3 combination. 

Enjoyable, absolutely! Including your pairing as well as others.

Speaking of enjoyable and musical...I just rotated Volti Audio Rival (Horn Hybrid) speakers into my system. Very, very nice!!!

Hi Charles. Thanks. I understand about the logistics and can extrapolate from your findings.

Still, I do believe it would be nice and helpful and informative to have had the Coincident gear ahead of the DIs, if only for another combination possibility with the DIs. If you recall, I nearly went with the Statement Linestage (with volume control) for my preamp choice.

Perhaps a Coincident vs LTA-Triode and now LTA-Auric pairing might be on the agenda? : )

@klh007 

always fun, engaging, wildly dynamic and live sounding

I fully agree.

In my case, they are not paired with Border Patrol gear. But the above remains consistent with your assessment of the Volti Audio Rivals and the descriptors you used.

The Double Impacts have greater transparency, clarity, and inner resolution / micro-detail.

Each portrays the energy in / of the music differently.

I'm listening to Elliot Smith's "Hamburgers" from the 'Heaven Adores You Soundtrack' album as I type and the drum work sounds terrific.

It's very early in listening time. I will report back in a few days.

@charles1dad  and @mac48025  

Great information and sharing of your demos in both of your respective systems. Very, very helpful. 

Was there a reason why you only used the Franks with the DIs and not the Statement Line Stage + Franks with the DIs when Charles visited you, Tom? Perhaps you did and I don't have it right?

@teajay  As always, thanks so much for sharing your findings here. 

I see this as a really terrific development and a great option for folks who may be considering a new amplifier to drive the Double Impacts.

Good to know that an amp with multiple tube type possibilities and with more power...and therefore more versatility with speakers (those less efficient than the Double Impacts) and likely easier to justify across a wider range of music types...is a great pairing with the DIs.

@schw06  Great Post!  Thanks for adding your detailed findings to this wonderfully educational thread. I'm happy that you have found something that works so well for you for both 2Ch and HT and is easy for your family to enjoy and use as well. That's a heck of a combo and value!

What stood out to me was your comment about tonal saturation lacking with the LTA combo. I would not expect this. Do you believe this is because of application of Room Perfect and not other factors? Did you compare without Room Perfect engaged with the TDAI? Thanks.

Adding the ZOTL 10 to the mix was a huge upgrade with the MZ2-S and really had much better presence, imaging, and PRAT but still lacked the tonal saturation of the Lyngdorf.

Since this is a Tekton thread.... : )

I've doubled down on the Double Impacts, literally. 

Placed my order for the Double Impact SE this morning.

Eric is suggesting a more interesting (than black) color for the finish. I currently have Soft Grey DIs which are working very well in the room so I was thinking of something in the light grey palette BUT am very open to suggestions. I remember that pair of orange DIs looking very sweet.

Thoughts? Color suggestions?