You comments are interesting and somewhat contrary to the near universal praise of the Lyngdorf by those who have heard it. I get the impression that Kenny is as impressed with the Lyngdorf 2170 as much as Grannyring is.
I don't
believe my comments are somewhat contrary to the near universal praise of the
Lyngdorf.
I, too, was impressed with the Lyngdorf. So much, in fact, that it competed
with the might Chord DAVE. Indeed, that's when I began to question how much of
Chord's sound quality was in the power of suggestion versus a "real"
quantifiable judgement in SQ improvements.
However, there are different levels of heaven. If it weren't so then we
wouldn't have nothing demarcating "this" from "that," or
"that" from "this." The Linn just happens to be on a
different level above anything else I've heard after considerable scrutiny. It
has nothing to do with cost (though I'll admit that I didn't pay anywhere close
to retail for the Linn).
My mention of the Linn KDS/3 was to add a little sauce to the discussion,
whether readers think it's a real-world option or not. The fact is, in the
audiophile world, the search for the last 1%-3% of SQ is again, using distance
as an analogy, the greatest distance to traverse in our search for nirvana. It
is within this far distant realm that the Linn lives, at to me that might or
might not incur an acceptable cost to performance ratio. People spend much more
in those last percentages on cables, cords, and magic hoodoo boxes.
That said, USB is dying - or at the very least it should be killed - for there
really isn't a reason for digital streaming to go through a separate box to get
to your main processor. It's a whole sub-industry that functions on antiquated
technology: one that is flawed, and becoming divisive, not to mention the
almost universal skimping on more robust/delicate internal power supply
integration. Too many cookie-cutter products out there, which the Lyngdorf
is not; nevertheless, short of HDMI as a transfer protocol (which isn’t
galvanically isolated), the inputs are as standard as the rest of the “standards.”
Galvanic isolation is also a must when you’re spending $5k-$6k on a unit.
I would say
that the Lyngdorf is a smidge darkish, but only a tad. I attribute this to the
Class D integration, which, in the Lyndorf’s case, a far sight better than
too-bright signature of competing Class D like NAD. The effect is that it
imparted a little warmth, which was very pleasing.
At the time,
the Lyngdorf was driving my EggelstonWorks Andra IIs, in a very open room with
lots of furniture, so the room correction worked its charm, though without
being setup properly, it could also sound artificial. With a little work
(though not much) I got the unit singing!
Also, at the
time, the Lyngdorf’s competition was the Chord DAVE and the Metrum Adagio, both
DACs using either the Benchmark AHB2 or the D-Sonic amp I had in at the time,
to compare upper-echelon Class D.
In the end,
the Lyngdorf was a great performer, and I went with the Chord DAVE, because at
the time, admittedly, I bought into their business model, which I later found
to be lacking, despite the excellent SQ. Could I have lived with the Lyngdorf?
That’s tough, because I knew I was getting an ever so slightly skewed, though
pleasing, performance. Then again, what isn’t skewed one way or another, for
better or worse? Everything is colored, but for me, I try to whittle it down to
the lesser of an evil in my evaluations.
Eventually,
of course, I went with the Linn KDS/3 because it was the Chord DAVE + the Chord
Blu2 in one unit, with the extreme benefit of having a direct ethernet input,
Chord-like power supplies for every phase, to ensure signal integrity, and a
pre-amp volume without degradation and/or added distortion when you goose the
volume. Also, like I said above, although it doesn’t have an amp like the
Lyngdorf, the principle is very similar, in that the signal has its final
conversion right before the RCAs or XLRs, in affect keeping it digital until
the last possible moment (the Lyngdorf might have the edge of this, though, even
if it doesn’t matter for the above reasons, and more). Throw in the Linn room
correction and periodic software updates, and those are added bonuses.
I don’t do benchmark tests, although I enjoy
reading them, but I care about specs to a certain extent. I’m still learning
(shouldn’t we all?), so I’m always fascinated by reading thoughts and feelings
on other people’s gear. However, there had to come a time where I quite auditioning
the latest flavors, bringing in $50k worth of MSB, dCS, and TotalDac to
audition. My pockets aren’t that deep, and it’s a good thing, too, because
lesser priced units like the DAVE, the Linn, the Lyngdorf, the Metrum, and the
DEQX were “destroying” them, as they were “miles better,” the former units
being priced for people with more money than sense.
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This is what I was getting at in an earlier discussion today regarding the Linn and Lyngdorf cost ratio and performance. The High End market can "sometimes" be deceptive and contrarian with regard to cost, prestige and pecking orders. Very tricky at times.
See, you were probably trying to get at this, by being polite, but you really didn't get to the you're-so-full-of-crap part. That's very tricky at time. Here's the deal though, perhaps I'm thinking on a quantum level. We all pay a certain price of admission, whether we buy some junk DAC for $50 bucks, and call it the best, of a $50k DAC and call it a turd. One might get you a seat to watch the game, while the other probably puts you in a skyebox, meeting the cheerleaders, getting player autographs, and sipping something a bit better rated than Ripple. I mean, you can drive a Pinto and call it a Cadillac, but you'd be wrong, even though in your mind you can imagine the Cadillac chassis around that Pinto engine. There are DACS like that, too. The point is, again, that last 3%-1% is a real mother. That's where most of the bread is spent, or most of the fretting lives, over that list small bit of SQ. That was what I was getting at, and I'm saying it. Like the once you get down to a micro-cellular level, the distance between two subatomic particles might as well be relative to the distance between the earth and the moon. That's it. I chose to buy my 2%-1% in one chunk, instead of spreading it out over various devices and such. That leaves 1% more for other junk like speaker stands, some snake oil, and the various audio tweaks I can't wait to not spend much more money on, lest I find the cost-to-performance ration too much to bear.
I n the case of the units you mentioned which provide DSP-based corrections (Linn, Lyngdorf, DEQX), that you found superior to much higher priced DACs, was that superiority contributed to by the corrections, or was it true even with the corrections disabled?
Also, which DEQX model were you using?
The HDP-5. It belongs to a guy here in town, and he left me use it for a few weeks in exchange for the DAVE. I thought the DEQX was great, but was probably more reliant on correction over the other two. That doesn't mean "bad." The guy who owns the DEQX has that thing dialed in to perfection, in the smallest dedicated room I've ever been in with full sized speakers (Revel Salon IIs). It sounds like a recording studio in there. As you know, the DEQX has a learning curve and so much you can do with it. It's astounding. Plus, it was the first DAC I tinkered with that had an Ethernet input. When I heard the difference I knew I wanted one, or one like it. When I learned the science of going RJ45, then I knew that I could never go back to USB. Back to the DIs, though: my pair has 123 hours on them now, and they are sitting on bare stone floors, still without spikes, and these already sound better in my room than any speakers I've had here. |
@charles1dad - Here's the rub: I didn't mention the cost of the Linn in my original post, only it's features. You, and others, brought price into the conversation, which is cool, but as the conversation morphed it became apparent to me that we were no longer talking about SQ, alone, but SQ+$$$. That's cool, too.
Me, like everybody else who doesn't consider dollars to be a status symbol, would much rather take the less expensive item that sounds great over the more expensive item that also sounds great. Yet, even though I didn't imagine this conversation would turn into money, I played along under the premise that yes, sometimes the better product does come at a premium, even though you saved a ton of money on all of the other products in your system.
It's the nature of this thread, though, isn't it? If I agree with everyone (which I have) that the DIs kill much more expensive speakers, everybody gives me a pat on the back. If, on the other hand, I suggest that a piece of upstream gear that costs more is better than one that costs less, the reaction is, "Whoah, okay, let's examine this. It goes against the premise of this thread." I didn't mention money, nonetheless, it came up, which tells me that this has become more agenda driven over the openness to why one person chose the Linn over the Lyngdorf. My choice had nothing to do with cash, and it still doesn't (at least to me). Even the DIs have little to do with money. The cost of the DIs is merely a boon. Since my pockets are not deep, of course I'm thrilled over the DI's price, yet I want performance, first, so if the DIs had come in at $7500 a pair, I wouldn't balk at them. Would you?
Wait, do you own the DIs?
It's true, there are a lot of hi-fi items priced too high. I tried to save money by going with Geico in 15 minutes or less. It just didn't take hold. I'll leave it at that.
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Hey Greg, yeah, man, I'm amazed with these DIs, and I haven't even got my room treatment in yet. These have tripped me out so far.
Last night I did some critical listening for the first time. Granted, I have a long way to go with my recently gutted dedicated room, but damn, this is what it's all about. I might just skip the whole upgrading to the mini-Ulfs, and roll with these DIs.
Piano sounded real. Like right there in the room "real." Tom Petty started singing and I swear his ghost was right there with me. Now, I was a little lit, but I listened to the same tracks today and they sounded the same...
...and to me, when a speaker can reproduce the lower-mids, even under sub-optimal conditions, that's a sign of some beautiful speakers. |
@hfaddict - What is it that you understand about about compressed vs. non-compressed music?
It's true, from my findings, so far, that the DIs do not artificially goose the bass, as they are more of a pure transducer. However, they are also monsters when it comes to bringing out the dynamics inherent in any recording.
This brings us full circle to compression, as digital compression used in modern mastering (whether it's remastering an older recording or a newer one) kills dynamics. The human ear is not designed to hear everything at one level in a recording, because the ear/brain is naturally inclined to take in dynamic stimuli, as we experience it in our world around us.
To that end, I'm simply trying to get clarification, only because, as a general rule, digital compression, especially in the mastering phase of a recording = bad.
The "weaker" compression heard in some classic rock recordings can generally be attributed to mastering engineers, at the time, being taught to use compression sparingly in the mastering phase to keep the dynamics of a recording. In other words, what you hear as a lack of bass is what you're suppose to hear, because that's the way it was recorded...and then mastered accordingly. Take that same recording, and then put it in the hands of a hamfisted modern mastering engineer, and he'll probably get you that louder bass from the recording, but it cuts out the artistic integrity inherent in the original master.
Of course there is also analog compression, via tubes, which can also be abused, e. g. The Kinks early Pye recordings, The Beatles Revolver, etc., but those are outliers.
For me, I have to get my DIs off the floor, because I've heard from many that I'm simply not get a realistic bass response from them, no matter what music they're playing. So, I'm investing in some platforms. This might help you get a more desirable bass performance from your older classic rock.
Dig?
(Excuse any typos, as I am on my phone) |
Out of curiosity, when you say you suspect you may not be getting realistic bass response, are you referring to output or clarity or...?
Yeah, I mean, I'm entering into the world of speculation, because I haven't experienced it yet, but it makes sense, that getting proper stands for the speaker should give better bass clarity. Depending on how the room is set up - the geometry and lack or presence of of room treatment - might bring out the bass a bit more with that clarity, or maybe not. Again, this is speculative on my part. I guess I'm saying that clarity should trump volume in the older recordings, because perhaps with more clarity that covers more sins vs. amplitude and muddiness.
I have absolutely no desire for the upgrades and finding the “perfect” synergy with the pairing of the 2170 and room perfect means I will step off the merry go round and just enjoy the music.
That's fantastic news, Kenny! I look forward to reading your review of the Lyngdorf. It might sound odd, but I've grown a bit weary of tinkering and tweaking. I would like to get off of the merry-go-round, as well. With the DIs it's getting closer. |
@facten - that last 3%-1% is where you find Nirvana. (Not the band). |
I didn't care for the GE Triton Reference.
That all important lower-mids just wasn't there, and I was pretty sure that no room could compensate for it. Perhaps EQ. Of course there are a ton of speakers that don't do lower-mids right. The DIs are not one of them. |
Absolutely. I'd also add the two ww's. Toga party at teajay's, anyone? : )
That's gross, dude. :-) |
Hey, that's good coverage! Congrats @tektondesign !
People seem like they have to sound a little apologetic in this audio world, for owning $3k speakers, because mo-money = mo-better (or at least we psych ourselves up to hear that). If this guy was giving this speech in front of some police officers, he would crack, break down, and be like, "Man, okay, I really loved these speakers, but I don't want to lose my job. The chick is holding the weed, I swear! You heard her at the beginning of the video! I didn't inhale!"
Anyway, these cats on the video were laughing at some really unfunny stuff, so they must have been high in Colorado. Good for them!
I'll go next year and get medicinal, too. :-)
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I recomend Blue Jean cables over anything else. I've had the usually suspects in my system, but there's nothing quite like the sound of unsullied music hitting my speakers (or at least as uncolored as copper gives you).
It all comes down to personal taste, though. There probably isn't a right or wrong answer. |
Wow, high praise, indeed, from Clement Perry. |
@aricaudio - When using the KT-88s in ultralinear mode, are you getting similar slam with the heavier music? I know you’re getting less wattage, still, with DIs, I don’t imagine 9 or 10w is going to be a problem driving the DIs in my 12x13x8 room.
Nick |
For me these speakers are everything I could want except for the fact that they are lacking on the low frequencies on certain music. (And the size lol) But I know they have tons of potential because on certain recordings, the lows are so powerful, rich and satisfying but in a non bloated way. My biggest pet peeve with any system is trying to find recordings/albums to match the speakers vs just hitting play and having most everything sound great. In saying this, the DI's play the best recordings better than anything I've had or heard.
Right, but is this the DI's fault or is it what intrinsic in the music? I come from a world of headphones, dating back to 1983 or so, and once I got to the upper echelon of cans, I knew that I had to switch to speakers. Notice, however, the bass response with headphones, and how yes, if they recorded the kick drum in 1972 to make it sound like a soft pad, then it should sound that way in 2017. The same with the bass guitar, or cellos, or pipe organ music. What then would make one think that speakers should act any different? I have the answer. It's that many manufacturers make sure that the bass is goosed when designing speakers. This becomes evident when you get to the lower-mids, and they just sound wrong. These speaker manufacturers posit that the overall ambiance of a recording is directly related to its bass response. They ask the question, "How can we make recordings sound fuller?" They aren't asking how we can make it "neutral" (if there is such a word), yet they certainly aren't asking many of the right questions. Audiophiles then go into a listening session equipped with certain biases, because audiophiles read a great deal. Audio manufacturers know this, so they play up to it. We come to believe in a certain technology, and it's not that we're going in blindly like so many sheep; nevertheless, anyone who has been an audiophile for a number of years eventually whittles their sonic pleasures down to certain parameters, and a lot of that is predicated upon how the designers, the marketers, and even the record companies want us to hear the music. So, we're back to subjectivity, right? Well, yes, but as subjective as our environment allows us to be, and that includes what audio gear we decided upon, or can afford, or whatever. I'm speaking to @grannyring , too, in that, I think it's a great post. Moreover, it has me interested in possibly "upgrading" the DIs at a later time. Still, at least on the surface, you have both described a common malady associated with audio bias, especially a bias that has grown in favor since about 1992, i.e. let's squash the recording in the mastering phase, so that all of the instruments sound equal. Let's turn a wav into a brickwall, and let's put some more juice into that bass. Speaker and headphones manufacturers have since followed suit in order to cater to this new paradigm. Cable manufacturers (in their wisdom) have found a way to color the sound with their wire and insulation, using certain geometries, sub-atomic quark freezing, and precious metals. Room correction software is touted to eliminate the need for acoustic treatment; room correction does not. I'm just saying, ask yourself, why would recording X have more bass than recording Y, and why do I expect them to have the same amount of bass? |
I will take mine to a level beyond the SEs and see what that does. Should be fun, informative, and a labor of love.
This was kind of what I was thinking. Should I ever care to upgrade, why spend all of that extra bread when I can upgrade to something greater than the DI SEs just with wires, caps and do-dads, never mind a change in woofers. I'm a long way from anything like that, but I hope you stick around, or perhaps be available to bounce ideas off of. I would be interested in hearing about your labor of love. :-) |
@audioman58 -
and please remember with all these drivers decent
Wave core, and better woofers they are 2-3% distortion, compared with top scan speaker ,seas, Accuton, they are not as refined no matter how good the design .They are a very good speaker and great deal.I give credit where do,
Are you saying then that you cannot replace the woofers in the DIs to give 1% distortion or less, thus putting the drivers, themselves, more in line with what you'd expect from pricier speakers? |
@audioman58 - So, you’re just specing things out in theory. That’s cool. I understand now.
I’m a purist. I don’t want distortion. I’ve spend X amount of dollars on a front end with almost nil measurable distortion. Moreover, I grapple with the "distortion" inherent in tube amps, and whether I want that, even knowing that SS amp manufacturers don’t ever talk about the high order harmonics intrinsic in their gear. Of course, any recording ever committed to magnetic tape has loads of 3rd order harmonics, not failing to mention the distortions inherent in microphones.
Anyway, some of that is a different story. However, did you know that blind tests in humans have deduced that even the introduction of 19% distortion below 500Hz is inaudible? This also plays into the masking effect that all speakers have. So, we’re talking about bass in the DI and whether 2%-3% distortion in the low end is going to have a great effect, as opposed to these cats who use NASA grade dampening material.
What’s more, there are some theories that state that most speaker manufacturers have it all wrong, in that they are using too much dampening, when fundamentally music relies - nay, NEEDS - vibration to happen, and that dampening has become just audiophile speak that says something has to perform X way to react Y way. In other words, you don’t throw out dampening, but you also consider what is a proper amount of vibration and whether that adds to the sound or not.
I posted yesterday about speaker manufacturers goosing the bass, and this much is a fact. Therefore, I ask if a $50k speaker, or even a $200 Bose system, knowingly skews the original audio signal by 4db in the bass, yet with only 1% distortion, and this other speaker has more of a natural bass response with 3% distortion (that you cannot hear anyway), which is the lesser of the two evils? |
Well, there’s no doubt that better wire, parts, etc., would help out the DIs.
@audioman But where are you getting the distortion figures @3% for the DIs, from the mids up?
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Panels are a lot more forgiving to a room, yeah? At least that's what I heard, so I don't really know. |
Wow, no matter how many times I call and ask for the grills I paid for from Tekton I can't seem to get them! WTF?
Yeah, I don't know what's up with that. People have been complaining about the grills for some time. Moreover, most have ended up getting their grills, but only after a prolonged period. I mean, what are they actually telling you on the phone when you ask about the grills? |
Anyone in Vegas ,Cali, AZ vicinity that are open, perhaps we can swap favors er what have you. Im open. Thx Well, from Las Vegas to Orem, Utah, where Tekton speakers are made is 5.5 hours. That’s really nothing. That’s like driving from Houston to New Orleans, only without the hangover. |
I was very close to going with a 2A3 build but it's all Charles' fault that I'm going the 300B route
Stylistically, what is the range of music that you listen to? |
Yeah, those tracks should be fine for testing bass. They have a steady bass line all the way through. I don't think dynamics has anything to do with it. They are studio recordings, which is mostly what I listen to, and it's also why I ask people what kind of music they listen to when choosing tube amps, because if it's open, airy, live recordings, certain tubes might not work well with polyphonic, dense studio recordings.
@aniwolfe - I can test the same tracks when I get home and realign my speakers. I know them very well.
Do you have your speakers on stands/platforms at all? I know you're using room correction, so you need to be careful that it doesn't suck the bass right out of the recordings. Chris Squire's bass has a lot of mids in it, while Sting has a much more traditional sound.
It need not be "audiophile quality." I've found that there are audiophile elements in almost every recording, live, or studio. One just needs to know what to listen to, and what to listen FOR. In fact, one might not even know what their speakers are fully capable of if they are always listening to the usual suspects.
I was talking to Aric and we both agreed that hear what your speaker/amp (possibly DAC) combo is capable of, one needs to put on some super dense recordings, with a lot going on. It's not that something needs to always be pure in its timbre and tone, merely that the instruments need to be pure within the context of the mix.
Me, I like to be able to listen to every kind of music on the planet, so I know if my speakers and amp can fully "decode" Metallica, some of those early well-recorded Iron Maiden albums, some Prince, with those lo-res Linn drum beats, and YES' Tales From Topographic Oceans, then I know that my Mozart, my solo Neil Young, and my Cannonball Adderley will be in good hands.
This method has never let me down. |
@greg22lz are you saying take them out of the box and inspect? Won't the driver be at my house for 30 minutes?
No, he's saying to make sure you inspect the FedEx driver before he leaves. |
I almost spit my Cheerios out when I read that ;-)
There seemed to be some confusion, so I'm glad I could clear that up. :-) |
@bullitt5094
Evolvist heard the DIs in my room, but later posted he hadn’t hear the DIs in a treated room. All I can assume is he wasn’t impressed with my sound absorption efforts and didn’t feel it was a good sample.
Nah, nothing like that. You're system sounded pretty stellar with your Schitt DAC and my AHB2 running in there. I know you had the bass traps in the corners, but I didn't know about reflection points, or the ceiling. I guess those are the art panels? Hell, don't you know that you're the reason that I got the DIs, because I had an inkling of what they could do? :-) So, when do I get to listen to your new rig? :-) |
evolvist, of course you're welcome to come by. I got the impression you had auditioned the Lyngdorf and didn't like it. But if you want to hear it with the DIs, that's great. I also have absorption panels we can play with in the room if you want to do that. I don't think we could do the ceiling would need some velcro up there :-) is going to happen, but floor/walls would be no problem.
I really liked the Lyngdorf when I had it on audition.The only reason I didn't choose it was because I had bought into the Chord philosophy at the time, but then their business model proved to dig for cash to back up that philosophy. Also, at the time, I was still in between headphone and speaker listening, leaning more to the headphone side of things, and the Chord DAVE has a headphone section that is second to none. Now that I've gotten away from USB, however, I'm not sure if there is any turned back. That said, for the price/performance the Lyngdorf was at the top of the list. I'm glad to hear that you went that direction. I just want to let everyone in here know that when Bob says he's getting a great sound with the Lyngdorf, you can trust his ears. Even going to what he had in his old front end, Bob had managed to turn a proper home theater room (and a very nice one, at that), into a fantastic two-channel room, as well.It's not often that I've heard people do both. Now I'm giddy to hear the magic he has going on in there now. @david_ten - I think when people hear the Lyngdorf in their systems, and that well implemented Class D kicks in, the amp section, itself, imparts a slight warmth that sounds very tube-ish, very analog. This is what the Lyngdorf is tuned to. It's also what the D-Sonic Class D amps are tuned to, with rave reviews. Think about this. I emailed back and forth with the Lyngdorf, and the designer (I can;t remember his name at the moment) said that he could have implemented Class A/B into the design, with just a little bit larger chassis and heatsink on both sides. It wasn't for aesthetic reasons that he didn't go that route. He went the rout that he did because he was able to tune the gear to capture a more analog sound, as well as he thinks Class D is the future. He might be right. We're hearing about it all over this thread. |
...and I am working on adding a dedicated room in my basement first.
I'm full in with @mac48025 on this, too. Working the science of a dedicated room should do wonders. My only thing is, working on my dedicated room is talking FOREVER! - at least it feels that way. Of all things, the hold up is now the rug for the room. Without the rug, I can't match the colors for the walls. Without the wall color I can't match the color I need for some of the custom art panels. I was hoping to be done by Christmas, but it doesn't look like it now. Boo! Hiss! @grannyring - I hear ya about the XOs. I mean, it HAS to sound better with upgrades all around. I'm not sure about replacing the woofers, but I'm certainly contemplating the internals in the near future. I might consult with you. Is that cool? |
You know, people are talking about making the mid-bass better with the DIs, though it's the mid-bass that really separates the DIs from many other speakers, which just can't seem to get mid-bass right.
Of course, my DIs were made in September, I believe, so I don't think I would want to touch the woofers, or any of the other speakers. |
aniwolfe250 posts11-13-2017 1:52pmAt $16,000 the Devialet D-Premier should sound better than a amp at $4,000 -5k
Thanks for your input James
.
Not that it SHOULD...but it had BETTER, for that kind of scratch. ;-) |
ozzy2,875 posts11-14-2017 9:52pmBTW, some of my previous speakers were the Eggleston Andra 2 (215lbs each) and the Legacy Focus speakers.
As I am also a previous owner of EgglestonWorks Andra IIs I can compare them to the DIs, because I've often thought about the Andra IIs in comparison when I think of their sonic signature. They are very similar in sound, only the DIs are easier to setup, easier to drive, and easier to get a solid center image. All in all, the DIs are more of a pure transducer of sound without the niggling idiosyncrasies of a Von Schweikert design. Mid-bass (or lower-mids, if you prefer) have the edge with the DIs. The bass response is comparable between the two. One of the lovely things about the Andra IIs was that the bass sounded so natural, as opposed to many speaker designs these days where the bass sounds goosed. Anyway, that's my spin, for what it's worth. |
Man, I have DIs in a 10x13x8 and now they look diminutive with these acoustics I'm placing in the room.
Cut this Yo-Yo biz in here. Never trust a guy whose name sounds like a child's toy.
How about some Jimi Hendrix? Good. Sounds American and great on DIs.
For your classical fix, let's do Claude Debbusy, Le Mer. It's light. Angular. It has spaceout. |
Nah, let it all out. What's the fun in not speaking your mind on an anonymous internet forum?
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I just found out a week or so ago that the Encores (aka mini ulfs) were released.
I had DIs on loan from Tekton until they were released so that I can upgrade.
Now, I'm just waiting for Tekton to get back to me about shipping the DIs back and upgrading to the Encores.
I really hope they live up to the hype, as it's been over a year.
Special shout out to Tekton for loaning me upgraded DIs for so long. |
@teajay - Another good review! I've never understood why anyone would want tubes in a DAC, though. That's what tube pre-amps and amps are for, as having tubes in a DAC hamstrings the DAC to one sub-set. If one wanted to go all SS at a time in the future, their DAC is now worthless. But, if like most DACs, that don't employ tubes, if you want to go tubeless, then just change your pre-amp/amp. In my mind, at least, it limits the DAC. I used to own a Lampizator Golden Gate at one time, and I couldn't get rid of it fast enough. |
***A word of warning before you buy from Tekton***
Well, it seems that I won’t be getting the Encores after
all.
Tekton had sold me the DIs under the premise that they would
be on loan to me until the “mini ulfs” were ready. This was on 10/02/2017, when
I received the DIs.
I didn’t open up the DIs immediately. Soon after I got them
I went into the hospital, and have been in and out until 06/04/18, plus losing
my job on 10/27/17.
I got to listen to the DIs in March, 2018, for the first
time, and again in May, 2018. I had concerns, which I expressed to Tekton when
I first purchased them, is if they would be suitable for my 13x13x8 room, due
to their size. I was assured by Tekton that they would be fine in my room. I
wanted them to be. I even purchased new stands that would suitable for both the
DIs and the “mini ulfs.” This was also a concern with my buddy, who is an
acoustician, as he claimed that I would need much space for the many drivers of
the DIs to coalesce. Moreover, he claimed that the rule of thumb was that the
height of speakers should be no more than half of the distance to your ceiling.
Now, this is a guy who teaches sound design, primarily for pro studio and
mastering rooms, so perhaps he isn’t the last word for home audio use; still,
what he said made sense, especially given that what I was hearing from the DIs,
even with multiple room placement, as well as acoustic treatment left the mids
very thick and muddy.
Nevertheless, I had hopes for the “mini ulfs” as they were a
better speaker, so I was told.
In my talks with Tekton, though, I got the impression that
the ‘mini ulfs’ would be in the $5,000 range, as Tekton informed that they
would be directly competing with the TOTL Golden Ear Tritons, which I looked
up, priced at $2,499.99 a piece, so roughly $5k. That’s my fault, however,
because I guess we were talking about two different speakers, and I guess there
is a higher one up the ladder from Golden Ear that Tekton was referring to. I
wish I had gotten that in writing.
What’s more, I wish I had gotten it in writing that these
DIs were to be traded in for the “mini ulfs.”
In fact, Tekton never contacted me that the “mini ulf,” now
named the “Encores” were in production, 10 months or so later. I sent them an
email and inquired about the Encores, because those are the ones I really
wanted, even after my poor experience with the DIs. I suppose I just wanted to
give myself and Tekton a fair shake with the Encores.
I admit that the sticker shock of the Encores set me back. I
was expecting to pay $2,000 more for the Encores, but Tekton showed me a slip
of paper where Tekton had written down $7,500. Tekton eventually told me that this
slip of paper was buried under a mound of other papers, so they had to fetch it
out.
Regardless, I informed Tekton that I was excited again about
getting the Encores. I wrote to Tekton, “So, I guess the next steps are for me
to ship the DIs back to you, and for me to pay the balance for the Encores and
have them shipped to me. My excitement about them is renewed! I certainly hope
that they do well in my 13x13 room. The room is acoustically treated, and I
would certainly hate to be out all of that acoustic treatment in the room if my
wife wants to turn it into a dining room. Haha!”
Tekton then confirmed the color I wanted, letting me know
that they were 2 weeks out from shipping to me, and that they could help with
the return shipping for the DIs.
Here it gets a little fuzzy, because I was told by Tekton
that they could save me about $300 in shipping if I used their FedEx account.
The strange thing is, Tekton claimed that they had heard from other customers
that shipping would be about $600 to get the DIs back to them. So, if Tekton
was to save me an estimated $300, then that means that I would pay Tekton
around $300 to ship the DIs back, from the estimated $600 in shipping without
Tekton’s help. This sounded odd, because I thought that surly Tekton does not
pay $300 to ship each unit out, so if I paid them roughly $300, using their
account, where does the rest of the savings go that it cost Tekton to ship
their speakers to customers. I would assume it goes in their pockets, because
the math just didn’t add up.
Anyway, I used a dealer buddy’s FedEx account and arranged
shipping. This shipping thing was becoming a hassle, because I felt that I was
getting a little ripped off. If I didn’t care for the Encores, boy I would be
out more shipping. I sent Tekton an email to this affect, not getting into my
health concerns (and I won’t do that here, either), but I let them know that
they would get the speakers “tomorrow.”
Now, anyone with a FedEx account (at least everyone I know,
including many dealers) has their account set up to get notifications from
FedEx when an item is shipped to them. So, Tekton must have known the speakers
were coming. I was in the middle of doing a charity thing when I decided to
look at my FedEx account to make sure that the speakers had made it to Tekton
okay. When I checked, much to my surprise, Tekton had refused the shipment at
the dock! How can anybody in good conscious do such a thing?
I immediately phoned Tekton, asking them why they refused
shipment, as we had a deal to return the loaner DIs, I would pay the balance of
the Encores, and they would ship me the Encores. The gentleman on the phone
informed me that he decided against that, that Tekton would not be honoring
their deal with me, and not taking the DIs back, thus costing me the shipping.
After a whirlwind conversation, in which the gentleman berated
me over the phone, I was informed that Tekton would take the DIs back, but that
I would not be eligible to send the Encores back should I not like them. My
estate attorney called up FedEx and arranged shipment back to them, whereupon I
informed Tekton that they would be coming back to them, once more. Equally as
shocking, at one point Tekton suggested that if I was concerned about the
Encores that I could just receive the shipment, not open the Encores and sell
them as new.
In other words, Tekton wasn’t concerned about me enough as a
customer to contact me when the Encores were ready, yet when they found out
that I had more money to spend, they were more than willing to take that cash,
as long as they didn’t have to deal with me any longer.
To make matters worse, I should never have told them my
health problems, but the only reason that I did was to explain to them that not
only had I been ill for 9 months, but also that the “60-day risk-free trial
period” that they kept throwing at me, was not applicable since I was waiting
on the Encores, anyway. Yet the irony is, they kept hitting me with the 60-day “risk-free”
trial period, yet Tekton changed their policy on me in the middle of the deal,
where I wouldn’t be able to use the 60-day risk-free trial period for the
Encores. That is, if the 60-day risk-free trial period is so sacred then how
can it be altered on a whim? What’s more, before I sent the DIs back, it was
sent to me in writing that I could return the Encores, only I would have to pay
return shipping on my own. That’s understandable , and I was hoping like Hell
that the Encores were all they were cracked up to be, because I certainly didn’t
want to go through this shipping merry-go-round again.
I then told Tekton that there’s no way that I could take the
Encores, paying them $4105 for the balance without having recourse. I mean, it’s
pretty much every manufacturer’s policy,
these days, in this price range (and many above) to try them out in your home,
so it’s not like Tekton is unique in this respect. Tekton kept saying that they
cannot take a “total loss” on the loaner DIs, but I’m not sure how they could
take a loss on the DIs, because even if I had sent them back under the “60-day
risk-free trial period,” would they have honored that agreement and taken them
back? I’m not so sure. If they don’t have a model for selling B-stock, then why
advertise the 60-day risk-free trial period? Of course we know they have a
model for B-stock, because they have some for sale on their website.
Those stands that I purchased for the DIs and the Encores?
The manufacturer took them back, 9 moths later, no questions asked.
Anyway, from there, since I couldn’t take that big of a risk
with the Encores, Tekton responded back, asking me what sort of “win-win”
situation I had in mind.
I informed them that since they reneged on their deal to
take the DIs back and reneged on their return policy, I couldn’t think of a
win-win situation, that I felt that my back was against the wall, and that I was
already out extra shipping. I suggested that they charge me a 15% restocking
fee, or that we work a consignment deal.
Tekton then responded back with their version of a “win-win”
situation. That they keep the DIs, which I paid $3395 for, and they give me
$2,800 credit for more Tekton speakers. In other words, they make an immediate $595
by shaving off the list on me, and on top of that my money is held at Tekton
for more speakers. This is all on top of me paying double-shipping, because
they refused our original deal at the dock. To top that off, I had to remind
Tekton that I had paid $3395 for the DIs, as Tekton admitted that they didn’t
even know that I had purchased “upgraded DI.” As a slight additional insult, I
never got my grills, and the DIs never shipped with floor spikes (and yes, all
of the boxes and foam was checked). So, really, I never received the whole
order of the $3395 that I paid.
When I asked how this was a “win-win” situation for me, I
was greeted with an email saying to never contact Tekton again.
I know some of your guys have traded up to other speakers
with Tekton. I’m sure it was done without a hitch, right? Of course these deals
were all done under the umbrella of Tekton taking more money, as it suits them,
and as it suits you.
But, I say this, if it can happen once with a customer, it
can happen again. Additionally, every business is a human business, first and
foremost. If a company eliminates the human factor, they have lost themselves.
Of course businesses wants to make money, but one can’t put the cart before the
horse. A sense of human kindness and customer service is tantamount to good
business practice. Tekton knew they weren’t going to lose money on me, but
because there was a risk that they couldn’t make more money off of me, they
decided to be done with me.
Guess what happened next. After I got the email to not
contact Tekton again, I had to call FedEx and have the DIs shipped back to me.
That’s triple-shipping now. Dummy, me, right?
Now I’m stuck with these DIs. I will have to sell them, but
only after I’m out nearly $800+ shipping, all because Tekton would not honor
their deal with me.
There are two-sides to every story, yes? As this is a house
of Tekton worship, I’m sure that I will be told to go take a powder. No matter.
This is a warning to the discerning purchaser, that it could happen to you,
too. Just beware. Think twice.
|
@jcarcopo ...I think the moral of the story is, if you're going to make a deal, you honor that deal, and you especially don't attempt to screw over the customer.
There was several times that I felt like backing out of the deal, and I even told Tekton so, but at the end of the day I needed to stick by my word, even if I didn't care for the DIs, and even if the expenditure was more than I thought it would be. I owed that to myself and I owed that to Tekton.
From now on, though, I won't trust anybody. What's more, I certainly don't trust Tekton. Perhaps they should have never made that deal with me; nonetheless, they did...so I expected them to fulfill their end, as I did mine, not turning the speakers away at the dock, and certainly not to attempt to bilk me out of more cash by using their "policy" against me, while forming a double standard.
The point is, like I said before, if it can happen once, it can happen again. There are many other points I could bring up, and things that I know, but I won't do that.
I simply wanted to spread a word warning. Conflict happens in life, and people don't often see eye-to-eye, but hey, right is right, and wrong is wrong.
I was done dirty, and pretty wrong. |
@aniwolfe - that is also a good moral! The thing is, I'm looking right now at the little slips of paper that Tekton kept my record on, and it reads "trading later when mini ulfbehrts are ready" dated 09/18/17.
In fact, on one of the slips of paper it reads my room dimensions @ 13x12x8. I remember distinctly asking Tekton on at least a couple of occasions if they are sure that the DIs would be suited for my room size. I was assured that yes, they would fit my room just fine. I mean, my room size had to be a consideration for Tekton, otherwise why write my room dimensions down? Additionally, I wrote my room dimensions down in our emails.
So, why think that the Encores would work better in my room? Well, $4,101 upgrade of additional speaker....as well as trust, made me think that the Encores would work in my room. Indeed, Tekton told me that the Encores would work in my room, even after I expressed concerns that the DIs did not. Yeah, I was trusting. Is that my bad, that I should have never trusted the word of the manufacturer? Maybe. Yet, with a smaller outfit like Tekton, one would expect honesty about my room size, as well as any other topic. Why didn't Tekton try to sell me on the Electrons?
I'll tell you: because they had more money to make by selling me the DIs. This is all about the sale - throwing the dart at the dart board and hoping it sticks.
I simply don't think that Tekton is honest, and then they became downright nasty when I called them to task on it. In fact, they became downright nasty and insulting. Take the Encores, don't open the boxes, and sell them on Audigon, indeed!
I've never, in all of my years as an audiophile, ran across a circumstance like this. Then again, I've never returned anything I've purchased for an upgrade, either.
Yeah, my bad for being so trusting. *shrug*
|
@waltersalas - Well, there's nothing really to "set straight" per se. You're correct, there's two side to every story, and I certainly don't want to belabor the issue. I simply wanted to send a warning, because, to be frank, there are other people out there with bones to pick about Tekton, only they don't do it here (as much). Thank you for the best wishes.
Anyway, there wasn't a protracted shipping issue between me and Tekton. The shipping situation only served to give me further pause.
Let's see...It's like this:
Say, you ran a speaker company where you got a super discount on shipping for $150 per pair of speakers, hypothetically. I don't know what FedEx charges Tekton, but this is just an example.
So, you propose to a customer that you can help them with shipping on a pair of speakers that you have returning to them. Now do you tell the customer, "Okay, I can help you with shipping, at $150, using our account to send them back to us, but if you chose to send the second pair back, you are responsible for your own shipping?"
Or, do you tell the customer, "Okay, I can help you send with shipping, using our account, and based on previous shipping quotes from customers, at $600, I can save you roughly $300, making your shipping to us about $300. But, if you choose to send the second pair back, you are responsible for your own shipping?"
I don't know about anybody else, but I would do the former, having successfully run a business of my own. I would not pocket the balance of $150 under the guise of doing the customer a great favor.
In other words, you go through shipping with Tekton, yes, you might get a break from what it would cost you on your own, but Tekton knows that they can also make a little scratch by depositing the balance.
I didn't like that feeling, as I asked Tekton if $300 is what they pay FedEx to ship their speakers. The answer was no. Of course it was no.
As to us common fare, shipping speakers without "help," I paid $500 to ship some speakers to a friend, 215lbs a piece speakers, in crates, via FedEx freight, once. Maybe I'm daydreaming, or seriously out of touch, but that's the way it went down. Indeed, if the DIs had been a one-way journey, it was $129 to ship them from Texas to Utah, by weight and dimensions, insured w/ signature. This was through a dealer friend of mine.
But no, there wasn't a long haggling process over shipping. I ordered the color with them, they told me it would be two weeks, I agreed to pay for the upgraded Encores, I shipped my speakers out, and then Tekton refused to take them, knowing good and well by email, and by FedEx alert, that they were on their way.
All of the stuff that happened in the middle, was just a Tekton throwing a fit, based on assumptions, and backed by nothing, save for the falsity of their own words. |
