audiopoint, "Michael Green, It’s a shame you decided to drag me back into this meaningless thread about walking or talking or whatever (?)…"
I think all of us feel animosity between two of you and it is really your own business. By no means do I have an intention to side with either one of you and I have, like many here, been called a troll by a few participants just for asking short and simple questions. That is another topic that you did, I think correctly, mention in your post. However, I have to say that this thread, as meaningless as it may be, has given you and your products as much exposure as it has given to Michael Green’s. In short, it has given you an opportunity for no-cost marketing & advertising ploys and it has worked. Even more than that, it has given you an opportunity to blast "competitor’s" products while explaining why yours are better, along with smearing his character. And all of that under an umbrella of a forum dispute. You are doing it quite well and I enjoy learning about whatever you are doing and have visited your website to check it out. I doubt I am the only one. Of course, I did go to Michael Green’s website, too.
So, even if mention of Michael Green as a person may give you hives and even if you consider his products painfully inferior to yours, he deserves some credit for establishing a venue for promotion. His and yours. Not much wrong with that, but just to mention it has not been one-sided. |
bdp24,
I got it. For some reason, I missed it before despite carefully looking for it twice. Well, what can I say in my defense? Nothing.
I agree with your general idea, but it is from the viewpoint of "music is the reason" while I have a feeling that many people are really in it to play with their toys. The music becomes an excuse. I see it as LEGO for adults, in some way. It just happens to be with equipment that reproduces sounds, but it could be anything else. The goal is to play with it and not necessarily to play it. I think those are two different groups of owners of a little bit pricier/more sophisticated equipment. One that buys it because it simply sounds better while they play music and the other one that is in it for building, rebuilding, outsmarting other hobbyists (just look at this thread), etc. I feel that many people from the second group convinced themselves that they are in it for music, while they really enjoy the "construction" part of their activity.
Look at this thread, or many others for that matter, and you will see how much time and effort people put in chasing something by trying new things. For example, I was really curious what "tuning" would encompass. I came out with a conclusion that it is a fluid process that, if you believed in it, you would have to do, more or less, every day. That would require focus on what has been achieved with certain move and then waiting for it to "settle"/"burn in"/whatever else. From what I gathered, the time would be dedicated to changing/improving sound which just seems too much work and too little play to me. I tend to turn the equipment on and leave it playing until I go to sleep. Building was just to get to the point when sound is satisfactory enough not to ask for more tinkering. It could be better, but what the heck. I have no time for listening carefully for a week to figure out if some compound placed on top of my amplifier would change the sound for better. In fact, now when I think about it, it would probably obstruct the airflow and first page of instructions says not to do so.
You seem to fall into the first of my two groups. People who have a system to listen to music on. It is not a hobby, I agree. Other group is not less valid and, I think, they are just as happy with their game. It is a hobby and it happens to use same tools as yours and mine.
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Michael Green,
Now I am closer to some attempt at acceptance of brass being more responsive to humidity than wood, but not by much.
I can imagine metal being charged and that having some impact. Not that I completely understand, but that may be due to my limitations and I can see that someone could make a case for it.
However, metal (in our case brass) swelling and changing more than wood due to humidity is a little bit harder to grasp after a few decades of non-scientific experience with both. I mean, I have not done any experiment, controlled or not controlled, to measure outcomes of humidity exposure. Still, I do have anecdotal evidence to the contrary. I have had old wood windows swell after an evening shower enough to be much harder to open. I have never experienced anything similar with my cars, bicycles (that sucked every time, but because of a wet seat and slippery roads), or anything else made of metal I left in the rain or outside on a humid day. Cars always seemed to retain their size. Of course, I did not measure them so I cannot claim I am 100% sure, but still. I will leave it at that.
Even I agree that my system sounds different throughout the day. I do not give it much thought of why it is so, but it is so to my ears and I live with it. I, kind of, assign it to reaching the optimal temperature for whatever it is doing. It sounds better after a while, but I can tolerate it from the beginning.
I doubt many people would contest the claim that transformers placed in the box with other electronic parts can have some (presumably negative) effect on the function of those parts and, consequently, the final sound. The real reason they are placed in there is a very simple compromise. Sellers would lose 80% (I am making that number up, but I think it may be close to correct) of customers if they did not offer a cosmetically acceptable solution. Most of the people, even those who are willing to shell out many thousands of dollars for an amplifier, do not prefer to have too many wires and boxes laying around. For some, it is plain impossible due to children, pets, husbands, wives, design of the room, whatever. Why that simple fact always gets ignored, not only by you, is beyond me. From what I understand, manufacturers try to compromise by isolating transformers as much as they can. It may not be perfect, though. I am sure you know much more about that than I ever will.
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"No other threads or answers given except for own self promotion. Has he ever been a benefit to Audiogon..." What does geoffkait, all of a sudden, have to do with this audiotweak/Michael Green dispute? |
Michael Green,
I have been thinking about your recent post and HEA paradigm you mentioned and so on. I am a bit slow so I am still simmering my thoughts about it. Kind of like a slow cooker.
I think you recently mentioned that current HEA is full of "over-engineered" products, or something to that effect. If I remembered those words right, what do you mean by that? Not necessarily the brand and model number, but what would be a general sign/idea of an overengineered product?
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geoffkait,
Do not get too upset. My questions are, in general, not addressed to you. So far, you have shown that you do not answer questions. You just babble your way as if nobody else exists. At least as if nobody else exists except for you to try to make fun of them or insult them. Bad boy. If a boy at all.
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"When was the last time your products were used at a show?" How does one get his products in the show? Is it by applying, being at least remotely relevant to the topic of the show (audio reproduction in this case), and paying the fee? Is there more to it? |
jetter, I think even those are not the answers. He does continue talking same few things, but actually not as an answer. They are statements frequently unrelated to anything asked.
geoffkait, I will repeat my question. What model is your Panasonic portable CD player. |
I got it. You prefer not to answer. It will not change anything important, but remember that you did not answer.
As a little note on a side, I do not lie and I did ask the question before. It might have not been on "Talk but not walk" thread, but I did ask. Lack of evidence does not mean that certain event did not occur. It may merely mean that investigation has been flawed. |
geoffkait, I did not expect you to answer this time, either. I just asked to make sure you have not changed for better. If it were not predictable, it would be OK. |
stereo5, You are in the company of only all Audiogon members-1. |
"But to answer your question, I actually prefer not (rpt) to say which Panasonic model I’m using at present..." Thanks for that precise answer about what Panasonic model you are using. If it were kindergarten, you would not get to play marbles with us. |
Don't worry about my haircut. It is not the best, but it is OK. |
No, I ask for haircut. 3-2-tapered. It is just fine if you want to do it, too. Works of art should be enjoyed by everybody. |
"Always use proper English." Agreed. Can anyone let geoffkait know, please? |
"Double yikes!! That’s some pretty strong language there, cowboy. 🤠 Maybe you should try to keep in mind it’s only a hobby." Can all of us remember these sentences and reuse them next time someone acts/writes inappropriately? |
>>>I’m going out on a limb here....Asperger’s? It is September. There should be no mention of Asperger’s syndrome. This is the month for Erdheim-Chester. Raise the awareness, tell your friends, family, coworkers. You never know, you may be the next. Sincerely, Committee on prevention of Asperger’s syndrome abuse on audio forums |
Regarding Asperger's syndrome. "I skipped a few symptoms that didn’t seem appropriate here." Skipping (ignoring) parts of the constellation of symptoms commonly associated with suspected abnormality is not that prudent when attempting to establish (prove or disprove) a diagnosis. Considering all the symptoms may exclude said diagnosis as a possibility and point towards entirely different problem.
The way it was presented in the post above is skewing approach to fit and support pre-determined statement. Not much harm on Talk but not walk thread, but reckless in real life.
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Well Tom we have steaks on the grill, should I be cutting with or against the grain. I know it is not an audio topic, but I see a little room to repeat my question from a few months ago. Not to mention that this thread is diverse enough to absorb yet another topic. When making pizza, do you guys recommend putting oregano directly on the dough, on tomato sauce, or sprinkle on top once all other ingredients have been in place? I am always torn between those. |
geoffkait, I am not a psychiatrist at all. Just noticing significant flaws in your previous post and attempting to discuss them before they become a solidified truth. |
geoffkait, You are likely right. That just shows that looking at selected symptoms, without considering as many variables as possible, is flawed approach.
Now, you can draw some parallel to audio reproduction. |
We still have not answered Michael Green's question about cutting the steak and I am afraid it is getting cold. |
I just saw a listing on Audiogon for a VooDoo cable. It looks like a legitimate listing. Interesting name for a cable. Half of the Audiogon could say "I told you so". |
stereo5,
I suspected so, they even look decent, but I was imagining whoever started it deciding on the name. Sort of rubbing it in. He/they get extra points for having a sense of humor. To me, that is.
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+1 wolf_garcia, I have been trying to fight that ever since I joined. I am as far removed from politically correct as they get, but some lines are just not to be crossed. I have been surprised that more people have not called him out on that one. |
Now back to the wire. Or Talk but not walk, for that matter. |
"I exclude myself, naturally." We don't. You win. |
Stop stalking people geoffkait. You are not flattering me. |
It is nice to see this thread light up from time to time. It feels like coming home. It is familiar, you know what you will find, and they annoy you.
Some of the questions intermittently asked ("empirical testing", "where is the line between talking and walking", etc.) have been discussed, or refused to be discussed, in the early days of this thread. There was no conclusion, by the way. It may be time to retire them as they will not, all of a sudden, be clarified.
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Michael Green,
Some did say "I get it" although I do not remember reading that. Answers, at least to those two questions I mentioned above, have not appeared in this thread. It does not really matter, but if you have them, stevecham and uberwaltz may appreciate to find them out. A few sentences and they will never question again. Pretty simple stuff to do.
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stevecham, "Please stop the pseudo science..." Please note that geoffkait has, effectively, placed a copyright on word "pseudo" in these threads. Also, do not use word "cows" or "sheep" here. For the same reason. |
Michael Green,
I will believe that those simple questions have been answered on half the pages here and will leave it at that. However, in case you have not noticed, at least half of the followers of this thread have not noticed those answers so far. It really does not matter, but it is not a bad idea to be aware of what is happening with the thread you started.
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geoffkait, "...circus is back in town." I suspected so. Your intimate knowledge of thoughts that some circus owner had made me wonder how long you worked in his institution. Was that the circus that exhibited unusual creatures? A woman with scales, Bearded woman, and so on? I have never been fond of circuses and have also felt bad for clowns. I extend that sympathy at this moment. You may not be a bad human after all. |
"He’s not posting here to "have some fun", he’s here to create interest in his services, his business." Do not give Michael Green too much of a hard time for advertising this way. He is doing it relatively softly and, even if he came here just to honestly discuss some topic, he could be blamed for using the forum for advertising just based on the fact he does have a business in similar field. There is another thread out there where OP is a novice looking for advice and explanations. Like zero experience looking to start. He is not even sure what integrated amplifier means. There comes a store owner telling him what he sells, where he is located, and so on. And nobody said a word,. To make it more interesting, the store-owner suggests that the potential customer commits the tax fraud ("you can save on your state tax with us"). Nobody says a word. At the same time, when Michael Green talks about his ideas, no matter how silly they may seem to someone, he gets called on it. And others end up much more blatantly advertising on this particular thread here and it is all fine. I am not trying to defend Michael Green, I just think he is not really pushing his wares as obnoxiously as others are. |
stevecham,
Reading about your tuning experiences/preferences exposes you as an enthusiast with some real-life considerations. Michael Green’s approach is uncommon and impractical for anyone with anybody or anything around. They may be valid sound-wise, but they are not doable for most of the people. Your approach is to tweak/tune the room and see what it does to the sound without destroying a livable space. His approach seems to be "I will get the sound I want, no matter what. Damn the cat, kid, and cleaning lady. Hey, damn me walking to the bathroom at night." Why would that be wrong? Both of you have different priorities, or at least yours seems to be adjustable while Michael’s is a hard core no compromise deal.
I am not saying his thing is a way to go, but for someone it can be acceptable. Not me, not you, not anyone I know, but there may be someone. Another topic is to explain how removing of the cover would work, but I decided not to talk about it anymore. I did it and it was not enough to be considered a "walker" so I stopped.
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Bummer, I missed that post that got deleted. |
Michael Green,
I Googled J.C. Griffin and did not find anything horrible. Well, there are a few J.C. Griffins that come up and one seems to be a politician so someone could see it differently. Aside of that, nothing shocking about the man with a studio/house. Seems like a man doing his work on a local level. It does not seem like my kind of music, either, but to each his own. Nothing that I could see would prompt quite some response from kosst_amojan.
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"Just to be clear, I believe MG has every right to charge for his services,..." If he does answer questions here and has a right to charge for it, does Audiogon get a cut? How would that go? |
theaudiotweak, "Why should we as an individual or as a group pay a toll for a troll to perform mass promotion on all of us?" Your statement is correct in general and it will be hard to find someone to disagree. However, remember that "the troll is in the mind of beholder" and not a hard-defined category. No matter what Internet slang claims. At the same time, this particular thread has probably provided more exposure for your products than it has for Michael Green's. Yours has been better wrapped and has had smoother presentation, delivered to us as explanations why Michael Green's products are bad. I am sure I am not the only one who read them with interest and have looked it up on your website after reading about it here. It is really not fair to claim Michael Green is getting free advertisement here when you do the same, maybe even more productively. Better stick to "who worked for whom some centuries ago". There, none of the rest of us can make judgements. |
>>>Should be any day, now. The wheels are in motion." geoffkait is moving. |
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geoffkait,
I think you confused me with someone else.
You should not be so bold. You are already very bold with nothing to show for it.
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Michael Green,
Of course, members would not pay any fee. They would just walk away. As much as I understand there is a certain animosity between two guys and you, and would not dare to think about judging who is right in that multi-century dispute, I do notice things slid in the text. I may be the only one who mentions it although I doubt I am the only one noticing.
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theaudiotweak, This is confusing. "I own only one website..and it is not an audio product website." "Tone Acoustics is of my own understanding and by design..." and at the same time "Here at Star Sound and Tone Acoustics we test and share our science and art...
It is very easy to conclude you are associated with Star Sound, too. |
theaudiotweak, You do get a credit for admitting... And here at Star Sound we have a published list with prices for over 60 products.. not zero, none or just 2..We have reviews and show awards on several of our designs.
We offer products that serve to enhance the sound and physical performance of select string instruments. These devices are highly considered and reviewed from players around the world.
Here at Star Sound and Tone Acoustics we test and share our science and art to benefit both the high fi system in your home as well as the live performance on stage. This becomes our mutual proving ground. It is our goal to merge the sound of the live performance venue and bring that reality into your home and studio.
The previous may sound like an ad..well we have paid for banner ads as well as posted for sale items in several different catogories going back more than a decade..Some im post ers have paid zilch over that same decade. Are they just freeloaders and users not givers? They may talk but not give. Tom Where this above appeared was neither a banner ad, nor a posted-for-sale item. It was on the very same thread ("Talk but not walk") that Michael Green started and uses to make the world aware of his ideas. I am not his major supporter at all, but give man a break. He started a thread that gives you a free advertising ride, too. |
theaudiotweak,
Yes, the post was well-written and I do not doubt it was truthful. It was, also, plain and very straight-forward advertising. Nothing overly wrong with that, had it not been for you repeatedly calling Michael Green on getting free advertising on this thread. You use his thread to advertise. If you do not see it that way, your anger towards him has gotten the best of you.
You might have never started your own self-promotion thread. You do use someone else’s and that is a fair game. I am not sure which one is classier. Starting your own or poaching someone else’s.
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Michael Green,
This thread is way too long for me to go looking for those posts, but they are somewhere in here. Who worked for whom and someone's female who could tell what happened. I think she was a witness to some moving from one city to another, but I may be wrong on that one.
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Michael Green, "that multi-century dispute" Glupson that one, as interesting as it is, is your creation.
Somewhere earlier on this thread, and multiple times, there was "he worked for me for a few months 20 years ago" and "I never worked for him...". Maybe not exact words, but close enough. I did not recheck it, but I think it was about 20 years that was in question. Maybe I am wrong on that. If I am not, it would be in 1990s which is another century, so two centuries by now. Which is multi-century. Bi-century, at least. 20th and 21st. And both of you (I am not sure if it was Robert, Tom, or both on not-Michael Green side) had something to say how things went way back when. The rest of us got lost in it. "The question now is why were they mad at me at all, and for so long?" There are many earlier posts that give hints and clear statements. I cannot say I was able to follow accurately so you are on your own. I do remember there was someone's wife, mother-in-law, I am not sure what exactly but she is a woman, who could be a witness to say what happened. Bizarre to read it on an audio forum, but it was here. |
Michael Green, I could not resist the challenge so here is a quick one. It does span two centuries. This is your post from June 4, 2018. Robert I don’t know what to tell you. Hopefully the Mods will consider deleting what you said, I’m not the mod here. All I can really do is state again what I know. You worked for me for 9 months in the 90’s sometime. I guess your now claiming to know what I did 20years before that and what I am doing 20years after you were let go. That’s all there is really, except that I also distributed a product "Audiopoints" a decade before you picked up the line. And you were a dealer for me. The rest of your story is of no interest to me except that it might trigger the report post status, which I stated above.
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Michael Green,
I doubt anyone can fuel their anger in this case. If they have kept it for 20 years, there must be a lot more in there. No way any of us, you excluded, can do much about it in any way. That is the game between two of you.
My previous post was just because I do like to make sure I got everything right. Like two centuries and so on. Simple facts are facts. It does not mean anything to anybody, but me. Once you say it was my invention, I'd like to check which one of us was wrong. I am surprised you even remember who was around you for a short time 20 years ago, by the way. Not in any bad way, more like I am in awe of sorts.
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