Capacitors or fuses, same irrelevance for the topic actually discussed. I did write the wrong one, though. There is still about 7 000 000 000 people on Earth who do not think of fuses when discussing something entirely different.
Talk but not walk?
Hi Guys
This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?
I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?
You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?
I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?
thanks, be polite
Michael Green
www.michaelgreenaudio.net
Showing 50 responses by glupson
Those 70,000 satisfied customers don’t care if there are a few obstreperous and argumentative dudes out there who did not get good results.Other few (7 000 000 000) are laughing. If it is about preponderance of results, I am yet to meet a person, except myself, who took a cover off an amplifier to hear if it sounds different. In fact, I am a minority along with Michael Green and other few thousand out there. Reasonable people do not let the dust influence their sound so they keep the covers on. |
Huh, I have not checked my favorite thread in a day or two and there is jf47t back. And again, portraying Michael Green as an everyday sadist. For Heaven's sake, stop it. It is really ridiculous. Just stop right there. Talk about music, CDs, soundstage, weather, enjoyment in life, anything, but stop trying to defend Michael Green. It is insulting to even read such incompetent attempts, or maybe defamation of him is your real intent. Stop it, it is painful. As far as hearing goes, it is not a skill. Hearing is a sense that most of the people are born with. For the last time, results of my tuning/tweaking experiment are relevant, real, and are the only relevant ones I know. Get used to it. Whoever does anything similar can hold her/his results as true and relevant. prof, The reason answers are not coming may be a bit more complex than just there being no known answers. This is not the place to chat about them, though. Your questions are perfectly reasonable, but your expectations are not. This thread has always been interesting for any reason, but sound reproduction. Nothing to be learned about that. Are there people on Tuneland? |
"Well many reasonable people do and have disagreed with prof and glupson as you can read for yourself."It would be acceptable and even welcome to disagree. It would, in healthy environment, enhance the discussion and bring new ways of thinking. However, I am puzzled by many reasonable people who have disagreed with prof and me. It is fine, but how come they have not done it publicly? |
geoffkait, >>>>>Keep a log. Solar flare and sunspot activity is undated daily on:Despite our differences, I am glad that you found the link I provided for you helpful. However, I thought it gets updated daily. |
prof, (writing to jf47t) "...why do you show apparently zero interest in participating in the Tuneland thread?"Michael Green, who is the host of the Tuneland forum (not associated with the video game, I think), a long time ago did mention that trolls are not allowed at Tuneland. I am still puzzled by these links and invitations to go there. It does not seem like a good match for most of the people from this thread here. jf47t calls me a troll and then in a post addressed to me puts the link to Tuneland. If there is a logic to it, it is well-hidden. |
"I was pretty sure that would go over your head as soon as I said it."It might have gone even higher above you, geoffkait. I am rarely the shorty in the room. "I’ve learned I really enjoying interacting with clean slates."I aim to please, enjoy these free gifts provided by me. If you were willing to consider what others are telling you, you could learn much more about yourself. There is room for improvement. You have knowledge, but it gets annihilated by personality that strives for conflict in the safety of this virtual world. Many of us would appreciate if you changed your approach. |
jf47t, When it comes to deleting posts, how come that Michael Green did not request many of yours to be deleted? I mean, those where you defended him or talked about your time together to an extent that was a bit unusual. I have always wondered about that. You did tone it down so there is less need for deletion now, but, man, if I were Michael Green... That was something. Thanks for stopping it. I cannot care less if you call me a dinosaur troll of the first order, but I do get bothered by such insidious insults on other people that you allegedly tried to help. |
"First of all I’m not entirely sure “insidious insults on other people” is good English ""First of all, I’m not entirely sure..." I am entirely sure that not placing a comma after "first of all" is not a good English. Or, to quote geoffkait, "when you can’t win the technical arguments you huff and puff and try to win the personal arguments. Bring it on!" |
Michael Green did not bait anyone. He started a thread in an open forum and people who were interested in it responded. He could have started a thread on any topic he desired and anyone could have participated in any way she/he desired. It has been very clear and fair from the start. Of course, someone could argue that this thread was "bait and switch" strategy, but nobody has been forced to continue. Not even Michael Green. |
So "dudes from Star Sound" could not go to stalk him there even if they wanted to. Unless the welcoming committee at Tuneland started slapping them. Which would seem to be far from welcoming and almost impossible on an Internet forum. The logic on this thread is getting more and more bizarre. People accuse each other of "trolling" while, with their words/actions, following the description of the "troll" they gave to the last letter. People being worried about being stalked while inviting those who they are worried would be stalking them to visit. People picking on other’s language imperfections while making mistakes in that same sentence. And that is just over the last twenty-four hours or so. EDIT: Well, the post that I used as a reference for deciding what would be considered stalking has disappeared while I was writing this post. |
"Why would the dudes from Star Sound go to Tuneland to stalk MG since they’re doing an excellent job stalking him right here..."That is what is confusing. If I understood it right, the stalking thought was about Star Sound people going to Tuneland. That ranting and raving and self-promotion (hyphen was missing in the post I am referring to which, I am certain, was not good English) is being attempted by more than Star Sound dudes. If anyone, Michael Green was the first one who started advertising his website on this thread. He even signed every post with the link to his website. It is really not that important, but just to remain fair. |
uberwaltz, "Unfortunately I really do not have anything useful to contribute to this thread. But that would put me in good company from what I see....." The company is, in fact, not that good, but nobody here has contributed anything meaningful in a while, if ever. It is like a neighborhood bar. In case you have some free time and walk in, there is always someone there to argue about whatever the topic of the moment may be. At the end of the evening, you go home and forget about where you were and what you talked about. to geoffkait:You must be joking. |
Earlier, one of the
topics on this thread became Michael Green's personality. Recently, correctness of the poster's English became something to pick on. Unnecessary, I think, but if that is the topic of the week... Or, to quote geoffkait, "when you can’t win the technical arguments you huff and puff and try to win the personal arguments. Bring it on!" "MG advertised his web site here that’s true, but he probably..." "MG advertised his website here, that’s true, but he probably..." Website. Comma after "here". "As fate would have it humor is..." As fate would have, it humor is... |
After handymann mentioned Carl Tatz, I looked him (Carl Tatz) up on the Internet. He seems to have more realistic approach than what we have seen elsewhere. "You cannot create something as intimate as a home screening room without understanding how it fits in with the client’s lifestyle," Needless to say, all the equipment has covers on and there are no wires exposed or in the way. What he may lose in sound, he gains in livability and potential for wider acceptance. That may be the biggest mistake of Michael Green’s approach to sound improvement. |
geoffkait, If you feel the need to pick on people and belittle them in some way, pick a topic you are good at. Why do you like being a mole who gets "whacked" on his own turf? For now, abstain from picking on minor errors in English writing. Particularly when it comes to people whose names here have no real English words in it. Like uberwaltz, glupson, and maybe a few others. It is embarrassing that you pick on English details and then get corrected by someone who learned English during two after-school 45-minute sessions every week. In elementary school. Try to grow up like many of us have. |
I hope Michael Green is still following this thread, at least this page 31. The part about the looks of his equipment and ability for users to accommodate it in their homes is easily more important than the improvement of sound such equipment may yield. Extreme looks and practicality will trump (negatively) any sound difference. And the crowd here is, in fact, more willing to go to some inconveniences just to get "better" sound than most of the people out there. If Michael Green could work on appearance of the equipment and its effect, visual and practical, on the space it is in, more people would pay attention to it. This current way, it repels more than it attracts. Coming up with some replacement non-flammable cover to "free" the sound from the dreaded original cover would be the starting point. At some earlier point, I suggested all of this above. No good advice gets appreciated until it is too late. |
uberwaltz, "How far do you think is needed to "walk the walk"?"That has been an unanswered question for last 30 pages or so. "What if all these changes are taking the sq to areas that were never envisioned or intended?"I tried to raise that possibility earlier in the thread, but that is where it ended. From what I gathered over time, Michael Green/jf47t (sorry guys, I forgot under which name it was at that moment) likes soundstage impressions. We were talking about a CD I had bought based on jf47t's recommendation/mention and it came to what size of room did the reproduction made it feel like it was. Anyways, after some changes to equipment, jf47t mentioned that the perception of the room size had changed (to something bigger, if I remember correctly). To me, it must have been an inaccurate reproduction as the original size of the room was whatever the room was during recording. I do not think there is anything wrong with adjusting the reproduced sound to one's preference, but it does not seem that enlarging or shrinking the soundstage should be considered "better" at all. You could probably use similar analogy for anything else in the description of the sound (tight bass, whatever kind of highs, etc.). |
marqmike, I meant my wishes for a nice day sincerely, I felt it at that moment, but really expected, based on my experience here, it would be taken as a sarcasm or something else. I was wrong and I am grateful for that. At the moment of writing, I saw the beautiful day outside and thought, as blasphemous it may be for this particular website, that it would be a waste to spend it inside listening to some electronic equipment or, even worse, trying to improve that equipment. Hence, my suggestion for enjoying the day was to get out and enjoy other aspects of life, forgetting electronics, computers, angry forums, etc. Warm day, blue sky, walk, the works. |
elizabeth, No need to read 32 pages to find out what High-End Audio means. I asked a few times and never got an answer. I concluded it is a construct to impress and nothing more than that. Everybody is "walking". And whole idea about "walking" and "not talking" is just, generously called, non-sense. Will the last one turn the light off here, please? |
"...saying someone has been selling fire hazards when there has never been even one case..."This is not that much of a strong supportive statement. Having a nuclear bomb in a backyard would be some sort of a hazard, even when there has never been a one case of it exploding in someone’s backyard. I am not saying that a few allegedly wrong wires are equaling a nuclear bomb. Unless those wires are inside of it. You can pick pretty much anything dangerous and, if nothing bad happens, you will still have time left to google "luck". I will leave to the rest of the crew to continue debating if Michael Green Audio wires are a hazard or not. |
Michael Green, I think I do get the sense of where you stand in all of this, but do not forget one detail and I am not mentioning it in any bad way. Everyone has to eat and pay electricity, etc. so it is fine. If you get paid for something, it is not a hobby. It is a job you are lucky to enjoy. In a sense, it does not give you any free time, but it is still a job. Kind of, working after hours thinking you are having fun while you are actually perfecting what you do for money. |
Michael Green, I understand all that and actually approach it in similar way, but the fact is that once someone gets paid, what they get paid for is really a job. As mundane and not-glorious as it may seem. Some of us live in some kind of fantasy and consider money just a necessary evil of some sort. I am not trying to make it seem like your work is not fun for you, in fact I do think you believe in it and are passionate about it all, but I noticed you mention word "hobby" while being paid for it. That is all. Hobby is usually what people waste time and money on, not where they earn it. It is just how it is. Having said that, billions of people in the world could envy you for being able to mix business and pleasure. Consider yourself really lucky. Even promoting your ideas on forums like this is, in my opinion, welcome. I may disagree with some of them, but they do provide an opportunity to learn about things I would have never thought of myself. I can take them or leave them, but I am richer for knowing they exist. And I even paid nothing. |
"Brass is also more sensitive to temperature change and humidity change." I get the temperature part, but am surprised by humidity statement. How can brass be more affected by humidity than wood? I can imagine some oxidation taking place and changing properties, although I would expect that to be a relatively slow process. Wood, on the other hand, swells and what not, when exposed to the water/humidity and effects I have seen so far can appear overnight, if not sooner. Is there a secret in wood processing. painting, or something else, that makes wood less susceptible to humidity exposure than brass? As much as I understand the conceptual idea behind it, isn’t this statement contradicting the above statement about wood and brass? "...whereas wood responds to nature because it is nature."Wouldn’t one then expect wood to respond to changes in nature (humidity of environment, in this case) more than brass? I cannot tell birch from oak when I see it in the park, and am not running for an amateur hour award when it comes to audio. I will not get a professional one, either. But I am trying to connect dots and would vote for wood over brass in anything at any time. |
A piece of mud from the lake near the trees harvested for Mpingo discs. It achieves unity of those two with mystique of well-known healing properties. It focuses the Earth vibrations on the center of the disc from where it spreads shimmying to the music of an ancient tribe that first used the tree for sound. |