Robert, you say ground the transformer to the chassis. I say isolate the chassis and everything else inside the chassis from the transformer. Why anyone would wish to drive the circuit boards and everything else with 60 Hz vibration is beyond me. If it doesn’t make sense it’s not true. To use the LIGO analogy if you ground the surroundings to the mirrors you see the vibration not the gravity waves. Follow? |
prof is on holiday. Remember? Of course if he was a real audiophile he’d at least take a peek on his iPhone. I guess he just doesn’t want to be bothered. 😥 I suspect he probably brought along Zen and the Art of Debunkery to read on the plane. My guess is there will be a sudden flurry of well thought out pseudo arguments soon as he returns.
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theaudiotweak - you really don’t pay attention, do you? We’ve been over this many times before. I never said Springs allow vibration to get out. You’re embarrassing yourself. I feel embarrassed for you. 😬 Head down to your local library and study up on mass on spring isolation. You haven’t leaned a damned thing. Besides, I just got through describing why seismic vibration takes precedence over induced vibration. Were you snoozing? Eat more fish. 🐟 🐟 🐟 🐠 God gave you two ears and one mouth for a reason. |
Robert, your memory is as non functional as Tom’s. I’m filing your comments under who cares?
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Well, something’s vacating something, all right.
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Is this the Revenge of the Nerds or Dumb and Dumber? Gentle readers, I implore you. |
theaudiotweak
I dont make springs or use them. By nature they restrict resonant energy from leaving a component or speaker and may even increase interference under a device in motion..such as a turntable and speaker. Tom
What Robert and Co. doesn’t make is anything to prevent very low frequency seismic energy from coming up from the floor and entering the component. Which is really the primary problem. Since he cannot do it he and Tom have adopted the rather lame tactic of claiming isolation is impossible. Give me a break! Anybody can reduce induced energy. It‘s not rocket science. 🚀 The difficulty arises in reducing extremely low frequency seismic energy. Like LIGO demonstrated.
What is happening here is a failure to understand - or pretending to misunderstand - what isolation even is or the function of springs. Or a willingness to learn. Those who don’t learn from the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them.
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Your memory is not functioning properly, remember?
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If I could explain it to the average person I would not have said it was difficult. Besides I already described why very low frequency seismic vibration is generally more deleterious to the sound than induced vibration. Try to keep up. Additionally, I'm not really in the mood to get into one of your patented what about this, what about that discussions. Get thee to Wikipedia! |
More fake news and nothing burgers from Tommy and Bobby.
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jf47t
When "doing" the variables there are no rights and wrongs as Geoff has tried to tell you (am I correct Geoff, I don’t want to speak for you).
>>>>Actually, now that I think about it, no, I would not say that at all. There’s a right way and a wrong way to do everything. Otherwise we’re just shooting blanks in the dark. But obviously none of this matters since all the naysayers are either not audiophiles, anti audiophiles, pseudo intellectuals, or pseudo skeptics who made their minds up a long time ago. I will write a book sometime, The Trouble with Trolls.
Dealing with sound requires a large measure of ESP. You have to know what the problem is, how to solve it, and where to go next, where the next problems are. Most people including audiophiles don’t really know what they are hearing, what’s wrong with it or how to fix it. And they generally don’t think about it too much, from what I can tell.
Shut the cave door and back to pigmy country! - Mo Gambo
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glupson
Michael Green!
>>>>>Well, it’s not you. That much is clear.
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I’m not trying to start a fight but I have always maintained isolation and coupling can live under the same roof. In fact that’s not just talk, I actually walk the walk as I’ve always used coupling with my isolation stands ever since the beginning more than twenty years ago when I debuted with Pierre Sprey of Mapleshade at CES. I have also always supported the concept of damping for the top plate of the iso stand. I have always recommended extremely hard, ballistic cones under the component on the top plate AND underneath the iso stand itself.
So, yes, isolation and coupling live under one roof. The roof of Machina Dynamica. I suppose if someone seriously believes isolation is impossible or doesn’t understand the first thing about it it’s not surprising he would say isolation and coupling cannot live under one roof.
Machina Dynamica. We do artificial atoms right. Electrons zooming around a hole where the nucleus is supposed to be. |
I’m not trying to start a fight, gentle readers, but there’s only one person here with an education in physics. Theoretical physics. Rocket science. Background: applied physics. No biggie. 🚀
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theaudiotweak
I have a healthy respect for carved and shaped tonewood some in shapes that are valued in the millions. As I wrote earlier the instrument in hand can easily be brought back into tune unlike wood blocks on the floor under speakers and components. Tom
>>>>Well, to be blunt, more like an unhealthy obsession.
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Speaking of Tuning blocks has anyone experimented with Mpingo discs? I have. A lot. Now, I don’t know whether you classify a Mpingo disc as a tune or a tweak but it is without question one of the most amazing devices in the history of audio. The reason you find so many folks who report negative results with these smallish 1 1/2” ebony discs is because it often requires a lot of trial and error to find a location where the sound jumps up very noticeably. In many locations, even some locations where you’d think it would definitely work, it doesn’t. In some locations it can hurt the sound. With care many Mpingo discs can fit into a room.
One reason the Mpingo disc is so tricky is because it’s very directional. It’s directional top to bottom and the around the azimuth, as the disc is rotated. You can also get a sense of how powerfully these hardwoods by leaning a one foot plank of ebony or almost any type of hardwood up against the wall and observing how just one plank affects the sound. It’s like with crystals. Which, incidentally, one of which is placed surreptitiously inside a Mpingo disc. 😳
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Oh, brother! And glupson thanks you. Priceless. |
Glad you asked. I was going to say before that I have been using many types of wood for like forever. For my first iso stand I used cherry, oak, maple, and Baltic birch for the strength member. For the next iso stand Promethane I used mostly maple but also Baltic birch for the plates. I also experimented with a range of hardwoods to gauge their effects on the sound, like the foot long planks against the wall. I think the next thing that happened after than was I discovered crystals. 😬 of course others have experimented with various woods, e.g., Shakti Halographs, Myrtle wood blocks, and I can’t recall the dude’s name who roamed CES back in the day demonstrating his contraption made of many different types of wood. There are also other Shun Mook devices that employ ebony other than Mpingo, but the idea is the same - highly resonant wood that exhibits directionality. Spatial Kit, Diamond Resonators, Shun Mook record weight. Sugar Cubes from Franck Tchang are also wood.
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Sorry, Tom, wrong again. Resonators do not have to be touching anything. They could, it might be convenient, but it’s not necessary. They can be just hanging there in free space. Like the Shakti Hollographs. Or they can be located where there is mechanical vibration where they convert the mechanical energy to heat. You know, like the Dampers I used for twenty years to allow energy to exit the system. Your Polarity of Shear theory has run aground, as it were. But I enjoy watching you trying to guess how something works. Very entertaining. |
Yeah, right, Tom. Pearls before swine, eh? 🐷
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Gee whiz, guys. It was a joke. Lighten up! It’s onky a hobby. 🤡
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tomcy6
Geoff, You are a "walker." I think that having discovered the beneficial effects of Mpingo discs, you would make some up in maple, spruce, Brazillian rosewood, etc. in different sizes and shapes. Why would ebony discs be the only wooden objects to have a beneficial effect on sound? The tuning possibilities are endless, or maybe not. Isn’t your curiosity piqued? This could be a whole new product line for you.
>>>>Actually the possibilities aren’t endless. And I didn’t say ebony was the only beneficial wood. Don’t put words in my mouth. Maybe you should go back and read what I said, Mr. Snooty Pants.
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tomcy6
Geoff, You are a "walker." I think that having discovered the beneficial effects of Mpingo discs, you would make some up in maple, spruce, Brazillian rosewood, etc. in different sizes and shapes. Why would ebony discs be the only wooden objects to have a beneficial effect on sound? The tuning possibilities are endless, or maybe not. Isn’t your curiosity piqued?
>>>>Yes, my curiosity was piqued. Wasn’t yours?
I already outlined the logic behind wood, especially the highly resonant Mpingo wood. The Mpingo discs are not used as feet. Other parameters besides the type of wood are important. E.g., when wood is used for a top plate of an iso stand or a self it should be a minimum thickness to resist bending forces. I also outlined my logic for choosing non-wood materials for coupling, I.e., extremely hard materials for grounding components and iso stands. The logic included ranking the best to worst materials for use as coupling cones, from NASA grade ceramics and diamonds to brass and carbon fiber and wood on the lower end of the hardness scale, corresponding to the best sound to worst sound. Perhaps you were daydreaming and missed it.
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@prof (intellectual provocateur) - just to close the loop:
whatever. |
glupson
prof,
Do not get into it. It seems that the option for you not hearing the difference being no difference somehow got missing/
>>>>>>pseudo intellectual support group captain, at ease! AKA “the clean slate.” AKA “what about this, what about that?”
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As I recall you said you couldn’t really hear the fruits of your labor. It was in the same post in which you mentioned my name as giving some advice or whatever. About three months ago. Hearing the results is really the most important thing, no? |
Lizzie, you might not have OCD, the jury is still out, but you do have something else. It’s called having more money than brains.
A rich audiophile has about as much chance of getting into audio nirvana as a 🐫 has of passing through the 👁 of a needle.
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You’re kidding, right? Nothing you try seems to work. You’re the poster boy for All Thumbs. You talk a good game though, for a tweakaphobe.
“There’s a fine line between suspicious and skeptical and superstitious.” - audiophile axiom |
prof
BTW,
on mpingo discs:
I had done some “walking” with the Shun Mook products in the past - their Speakers which I thought were terrific, and their mpingo discs. I tried the mpingo discs in the ways they instructed. Didn’t hear any effect whatsoever.
But of course negative results never count. I’ll just let geoffk add that to his Prof Can’t Hear arsenal of jibes. There you go geoff: a free gimme :-)
>>>>No surprises there. I said it ain’t easy. There’s also the thing to consider your attempts with lots of things like, you know, vibration isolation, oft go awry. 😛 No wonder you’re just a big skeptic! What do they call that? Oh, yeah, a self-fulfilling prophecy. 😀 Would I be taking a cheap shot by saying you could be the poster boy for operator error? 😳
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glupson
How does one define "rich audiophile"?
>>>>How do you define rich audiophile? How you define rich? How do you define audiophile? How do you define audio Nirvana? How do you define camel?
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prof wrote,
I have my own lines to draw about where I want to spend my time and mental energy, and I would NEVER try to draw them for other people. (And call people “talkers” because their efforts don’t align with mine).
>>>>Gosh, that’s deep. That’s sort of the blah blah blah MG was referring to if I’m not mistaken. Can we take your efforts to basically mean no efforts, at least no successful ones? 😛 By the way, nice to have a quorum again for the talkers side.
J Edgar Hoover: I don’t go all the way.
Shirley Temple: Either do I. |
Oh, brother! You’ve got to be hot dogging me! 🌭
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We know you do but what do we do?
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glupson - if you are so naive and gullible not to know what I mean by rich audiophile I ain’t going to tell you. Since I was addressing Lizzie when I made that remark why don’t you ask her?
Never wise up a chump or give a sucker an even break. |
He’s back. He’s tan and rested. But he’s still a pseudo skeptic with all thumbs. And glupson is still the poster boy for a blank slate. You can paint a donkey different colors but it’s still a donkey.
Pop quiz
define,
Blank slate
pseudo skeptic
grinder
rich audiophile
donkey
sitter |
“Which one is Lizzie?” Still funny the day after. 😀 That’s gold, glupson, Gold!
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"He could actually feel the keys get lighter or heavier to strike as I was tuning."
Whoa! What?! Hey, it’s the same thing with cryogenically treated musical instruments like flutes and trumpets 🎺 and saxophones 🎷 The musicians report that keys of the cryo’d instrument are much easier and smoother to press and release. Maybe cryogenics should be called a tune instead of a tweak. Hmmmmm...🙄
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Yuk, yuk! That’s so funny I almost forgot to laugh. I didn’t realize clean slates were so funny.
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Pop Quiz for a slow weekend Which of the following are tunes and which are tweaks? 1. Springs 2. Wood blocks and Mpingo disc 3. Maple board 4. Cryogenics 5. Heat Tempering 6. Isolating the transformer 7. Removing the chassis cover 8. Elevating cables 9. Isolating speakers
10. Crystals |
Nice post, glupson, and eerily reminiscent of prof’s posts when he attempts to dismiss claims based on his results which so often are negative. This is kind of the same old story; it’s the same predicament we often find ourselves in with very earnest and determined naysayers and skeptics (similar to brothers Wolf and mapman and Ozzie to some extent who I put in category of determined naysayer who proudly announce getting negative results. And continue to repeat those claims ad infinitum.
Of course, the problem is - as I’ve been saying all along, he’ll-loo! - is there are many reasons why folks sometimes don’t get the results they were hoping for or were expecting. That’s why I have said a test, in and of itself, means little, especially if the results are negative. Even for carefully conceived and executed tests. It’s because there are too many things that can go wrong with any test, many of which are behind the control of the intrepid tester. I say that as having more testing experience than the average bear, including billion dollar electronic systems. Please, no angry emails about Appeal to Authority.
Psychologically, being a self anointed Doubting Thomas probably doesn’t help. Perhaps you could say it’s a self fulfilling prophecy. “How will I be able to face my fellow pseudo skeptics?” It’s like a lot of tunes and tweaks - it’s helpful to evaluate this thing or that thing in a system that has evolved to a point where there is more of a chance of being able to hear it. Many systems are simply too, uh, what’s the word? Oh, yeah, rudimentary.
I return you now to your regularly scheduled program, As the Troll Turns. |
One of the very few modders of high end CD and Blu Ray players, Ric Schultz at Electronic Visionary Systems (EVS), also recommends removing the cover of Oppo or any other player for SQ reasons.I had the World’s Most Modded Oppo 103 up until three years ago, most of the modifications of which were done by Ric. It was ripped, flipped, zipped and bipped. Everything was isolated, unbolted, unscrewed, unbound, unwrapped, and protected from vibration, RFI/EMI and magnetic fields. It had the Audio Magic thingamabob hooked up to the circuit, WA Quantum Chips up the wazoo, PWB foils and other dumaflochies galore, linear power supply with upgraded capacitors, my own constrained layer damper VibraBlock for the transport mechanism, bipassed fuse (oh, no!), superclock, my own Codename Turquoise tray masking, and other odds and ends. The whole thing was up on a heavy mass on spring iso stand using stacked ceramic tiles for the mass.
Pierre Spray of Mapleshade Recording Studio also played the system in his “lab” downtown DC with covers off.
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A gathering of trolls....once Moops makes an appearance you know someone must have called for a convening of the trolls. I can almost hear the telltale flapping of bat wings. 🦇 🦇 🦇 Moops and Gloops.
Gliddy glup gloopy nibby nabby nooby la la la lo lo
Sabba sibby sabba nooby abba nabba le le lo lo
Tooby ooby walla nooby abba nabba
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And one that sounds as good as if not better than the World’s Most Modded Oppo 103. With Grados instead of Senn 600s. Go figure.
No matter how much you have in the end you would have had even more if you had started out with more. 😳
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prof
If you don’t get the claimed results, it can only be you who is to blame. You are doing it wrong!
Bingo! That’s what I’ve been saying!
🤡
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tomcy6
Geoffkait: And one that sounds as good as if not better than the World’s Most Modded Oppo 103.
Makes one wonder if all those tweaks and mods resulted in improved sound.
>>>>Don’t strain your brain on my account. 🧠 🥊
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Robert, good detective work! 🤡
Costco, you too! Ha ha! |
We already know that since wire is directional capacitors should sound better hooked up one way rather than the other direction. We also know capacitors vibrate during use so obviously you don’t want to couple them to each other or to the chassis. Damping them would be even better. Duh! You know, there is such a thing as being skeptical to a fault. Lead, follow or get out of the way.
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the audiotweak
Just our opinions of course and means nothing really… just talking.
Robert--Tom
>>>I concur without comment.
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glupson
I did claim that I heard no difference. It was a claim and it is as firm as they get. No softer than Michael Green’s claims that taking covers off does make a difference. Therefore, it is the truth and that is it. Because I say so.
>>>>Who cares? As I intimated previously your results do not comport with the many others, most if all with more, what’s the word...oh, yeah, experience, who got good results from removing the cover off the chassis, including your humble scribe and Ric Schultz of EVS and MG and one assumes a great many others. Your negative result is the one that proves the rule. 😛
In cases like yours where we have a lone wolf it’s customary to dismiss him as an outlier. No offense. You certainly have a motive to lie about it, which is another reason to ignore your results. Not to mention the other perfectly valid reasons why some folks just can’t get good results that I already specified. Sorry, Charlie, we want tuna that tastes good, not tuna with good taste. 🐬
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