geoffkait’s story shows that there is no absolute in perception of music and that arguing about its quality is a silly process. For that oboe player, it must have been a good sound. Good for him.
I have stories in a similar direction as geoffkait’s except that my guys did not even have anything more than maybe a boombox. geoffkait’s host at least invested some time and money in reproduction of music.
Over years, I started thinking that hobby that involves striving for better audio reproduction (think Audiogon threads) is essentially a hobby of fakers. Not only because any kind of reproduction is basically fake, but also because that small sample of people I know and who could be considered "dedicated musicians", do not go crazy over what they listen to. There is nothing wrong with improving perceived quality by small steps (tweaking, tuning, engineering of some sorts, etc.) as it will, over time, yield higher standard for greater good. Not to mention that such a hobby is fairly benign despite of what you could conclude from reading some of the posts around here. |
geoffkait,
I think you are 100% correct on both of those claims. Your third claim is a little hard to decipher. I do not see what your sentence "He was a musician, first oboe in National Symphony Orchestra, DC."
is an appeal to. It seems like a well-placed sentence to describe the circumstances and further reading. |
geoffkait, "I know what’s coming next. But what about this, what about that?" That is kind of funny. I do not have more questions of that kind at this moment, but am glad that you think of me that way. After all, isn't it you who thinks one should never be content and should always try to improve? I will take it as a compliment. Thank you.
Hidden meaning I was talking about was you saying that your mentioning of the oboist was an appeal to authority. It did not come across as such. It came across just as a plain easily-understandable sentence. I was obviously underthinking.
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geoffkait, "I respect that you will always respond. Even when there’s absolutely no reason to."
You are a reason to.
I suspect that prof would be happy if he could write the same note to Michael Green. |
geoffkait,
Did you buy Grado 80 after not-so-long-ago mapman's recommendation to you to upgrade from SR 60, or you had had them before that and he was incorrect in assuming you had SR 60?
On a more important note, what model of Panasonic CD player is it that you have and why did you decide on that one?
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geoffkait,
It is getting to be cute. I would have never thought of any of those questions myself. 4. Can you prove your hearing ability in a blind test? When checking one's hearing ability, a person does not have to be devoid of visual stimuli. She/he could, but it is not necessary to insist on it. |
geoffkait, Regardless of others' views of music vs. sound, what Authority were you appealing to when you mentioned...
"He was a musician, first oboe in National Symphony Orchestra, DC." It seemed like a reasonable statement of facts that served its purpose of describing the situation very clearly. Who would have thought that it had hidden meaning, too.
"...who was apparently unable to hear properly or didn’t know what he was listening to."
I understand that you disliked what you heard there, but may it be that said musician simply had different preferences than you did? Or, may it be, that his perception of sound is biased because of the position and surroundings, not to mention loudness level, that he frequently finds himself in while playing music himself? |
mapman,
Thanks for the explanation. As fate would have it (I hope that is not copyrighted), I attempted to listen to SR-80 at the store that was so noisy that the only thing I was able to conclude is that they do not isolate from the store noise that well.
geoffkait,
I must have been in deep sleep when you mentioned about SR-80. I apologize for redundant question and am thankful for answer.
However, what Panasonic CD player do you have? And, while we are at it, what Walkman?
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mapman,
I have SONY D-421SP. Do think neutrinos are wreaking same havoc as in geoffkait's Panasonic? I heard that SONY used more labile photon protection against such pests.
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Why would they ever? Shame on them. |
jf47t, "...what happens when brass is put close to the chips and transformers." Could you later tell us how close was it when, and if, it started making any difference? |
geoffkait,
"Every time I do the Teleportation Tweak for a customer I also treat my own system as as consequence." How often is that? |
geoffkait,
Do not be mad when someone gets interested in what you have to say. Most of the people here do not take you seriously, but I decided I will pay attention. |
It was not supposed to be funny. |
geoffkait,
If it matters, "talker" I am, "faker" I am not. It is a ridiculous distinction with no merit, anyway. |
geoffkait, "Often enough." Never? I got it. |
geoffkait, I wonder if you started rethinking before posting. Those more technical posts are still worth reading and thinking about them from time to time. Remainder of communication seems to have improved lately. There have not been cows, grasshoppers, and who would remember what other animals assigned to other members in a while. Not even questions about target customer flow. Thank you for that. |
Ok, I will stop and I will be honest. I just wanted to see how you will react if someone treats you in a similar, although much more polite, way that you often treat other people. When tide turns, in a sense. Some kind of empirical testing. Maybe it was not fair, but you got annoyed too quickly. Well, remember the feeling. I will not bother you anymore. |
prof,
do not take it that close to the heart. It is what it is.
My curiosity led me to the Tuneland forum, just as a reader as I have nothing to contribute. Not that I contributed much here, either. It is interesting there. It really is. Not so much about music, but overall approach. You got a honorable mention, I think. I was quoted. In a negative context, though. Misunderstood, too. Anyway, just like this thread ended up being a lot about personalities (with Michael Green being cited the most), the thread there is also very much about personalities here. Mostly in a subtly demeaning manner, but it brought couple of thoughts, too. One is the claim, or whatever it could be classified as, that most of the guys here are retired people who have nothing better to do (maybe not the exact quote, but something like that). I wonder if that is a fair assessment of demographics here. I cannot even try to guess which one of you does what. Nothing wrong with being retired, but is it really true that most posters here are retired?
Now, don’t go to Tuneland and then lose your cool. It is interesting there, but only if you can control yourself.
As an observation, at least two posters there make same spelling mistakes.
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jf47t,
That was innovative. Thanks.
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kosst_amojan,
It is true that it is hard to know if something is snake oil, or not, before hearing it yourself or, at least, from someone you feel you can trust. Different issue is why is it so important to be in a category of "audiophile" or "walker". So far, in over a thousand posts, we have not agreed, or even attempted to clarify, what "talking", "walking", "faking", "audiophile" is for the purpose of this thread. I tried asking a few times with no response so I started considering those few words a "snake oil" of their own kind. Maybe my questions have not been read or considered worth answering, but they are the basis for discussing a topic as vague as the title of this thread.
As for the above question about a "talker" having to respond to questions, it is due to an open nature of the forum. It should be acceptable as long as it does not cross the line of polite behavior and insults we too often read here.
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mitch2,
Your questions were exactly why I thought Tuneland may not be the best place for most of the people from this thread. It raises too many questions that are better left unasked.
Did you also find the part of Tuneland you visited not overly educative in terms of tuning?
There is a lot about how great it sounds, but not much about how to do it. Maybe I just did not find it.
The point #7 is a little puzzling. Was I so naive to think that everyone here has already thought it was like that?
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thecarpathian,
I was quoted on Tuneland for saying people here have been polite enough not to infiltrate Tuneland. They got named "cockroaches" although for cockroaches better word would probably be "infest". I warned Audiogon crowd would have a field day there and it is better that two sites stay divided. Well, the dam has broken and Tuneland is here now, for better or worse. If nothing else, it will increase the traffic at Tuneland which may be a fair trade-off.
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"Also, no fuse, no transformer, no interconnects, no speaker cable." Could a headphone cord be considered an interconnect or, more likely, a speaker cable? |
jf47t,
The talkers have listened to you and checked the Tuneland out. That is half-the-walking.
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thecarpathian,
Yup, that is what I found, too. Not much I could find about actual tuning and what to do about it, but it was interesting nevertheless. I am glad I was directed there. It could not be used for audio-topic, but in sociology and a few more branches of behavioral science, it would be good for a thesis or two. That is what my "interesting" referred to. A whole new world I was unaware existed. Almost giving up on gaining any more knowledge about actual music reproduction, I read with real interest. What I find either strange or, if it is all real, disturbing is the fact that most non-MG posts are written in the same manner. As if it was only one person writing them. It is probably not true, but having only one-minded crowd around rarely brings any progress. And to be that similar? As jf47t once mentioned in his reply to me....scary. Unless it is really only one person writing. Then it would be a mix of baffling and sad.
On the positive side, Michael Green that I know from this thread here comes across as less of a religious figure and more of a person you/I/anyone can agree or disagree with and imagine meeting in real life. In other words, more down to this planet. I have had no complaints about him here, despite some disagreements. In fact, I think he is an asset. I wish he visited more often. He does make me think and consider things from angles I am not used to.
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jf47t, "On TuneLand you can read start to finish system tuning."
Is there any way you could point out where? I tried the link below and under it "more info". The only thing that it did is showed me pictures of a building, including what looks like a dressing/make up room. Is there any other place I should look for info about how to do the tuning? Not the theory, the actual work.
https://www.michaelgreenaudio.net/about-tuningA few of us have pointed out on a few occasions, the website really needs some reworking. |
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jf47t, While you are at that, welcome page, Bandroom Room Tuning, click for more info. The link does not work. "...how folks went from finding out about tuning..." They must have worked very hard. It is not that easy to find it. More like a scavenger hunt. Eventually, you can pick up bits and pieces from the side of the road, but road signs are missing big time. The magic of the Internet is also that it is easy to leave if something is too complicated. It takes about four clicks to get anywhere in that universe. Edit: Actually, it takes exactly 19. From Bandroom Room Tuning (when it works) to donations for extinct rhinoceros. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/any-two-pages-on-the-web-are-connected-by-19-clicks-or... |
thecarpathian,
Thanks. I just write what comes to my mind when seeing what is presented around here. Or there.
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jf47t,
Feel free to use any of my comments for improvement of your website. That is why I wrote them. If Michael had accepted that offer at Oneonda, he would have needed to pay attention to those details and corrected his students so they could improve. However, it is much easier to notice and correct afterwards, the way I just did, than not to make a mistake while creating something. It is easy to overlook details while creating.
Also, thank you for that link to the instruments company (Conn & Selmer). It is, in fact, attaining such knowledge that I find this thread useful for. Something I would have never looked up myself and that I have no knowledge about. No use for it, either, but I like learning.
If I could give you that fame you say I am acquiring here, I would give it to you in a heartbeat. You seem to crave and need it much more than I do.
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Tunelandization of Audiogon! |
thecarpathian,
You must be new on this thread, when you still ask what response is.
With a decent certainty, responses to questions about facts here are diverse. They range from "troll" to "trolling".
It is, by no means, frequent response specifically from jf47t. It is simply "the response" and used by anyone.
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thecarpathian,
My Tunelandization of Audiogon was referring to "It appears we have a meeting of the minds". At some point, a few days ago, I suggested it is better that places stay separate and everybody plays in her/his own yard. Well, it did not work.
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"...of that guy who has only twenty-five (25) year old images of himself posted on his site?" Ouch. |
theaudiotweak,
What about seismic energy? Is it really that important or is it something to be neglected due to inability to control it? |
audiopoint,
Aside of yours and Michael Green's disagreement here, it Is interesting to see your point regarding tuning. To those who have not jumped on board, and probably never will, it shows some other view. I, personally, wish I had more technical knowledge and time to discuss it deeper, but I am glad I can learn your points. Thanks for participating.
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prof, "If it doesn’t make sense it’s not true." Did you read this? |
theaudiotweak, "...for resonance to vacate the parts or the chassis. Ours do and furthermore they reject energy from below that attempts to re enter either by hard contact or by reflection onto the Audiopoint." Are we talking about "decreasing" and not "eliminating"? To someone not experienced with either of the approaches, it reads, probably wrong, as "eliminating" which seems fairly unbelievable. Maybe "decreased to a really low level"? |
mitch2,
You made me laugh, but you are on point, audio or not. I am with you, awaiting the result of these deliberation/ Except that I do not have an SUV. Mine is lower mass. Wait, we have not determined if lower mass system is better than a higher mass system yet, anyway.
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audiopoint,
In all fairness, it never says that the statement about Michael Green was made by Steinway & Co. or someone representing it in any way. True, most of us, me included, first thought of the piano makers, but it could have been anyone with last name Steinway. It may be misleading because of our views, but it may really be true. Regardless of what it is, it deserves benefit of the doubt that it was some Steinway man who said it.
The part about Ray Charles, Beatles, etc. is mentioned often on this thread. Where exactly is it on the website? I tried to find it, but could not. What I learned about myself here is that I have a hard time finding things on Michael Green associated websites. Even when many others saw it, I cannot find it. That does not include tuning description/instructions from start to finish. I am starting to believe it is not me, but the website design.
However, it would take only one project in one studio that is used for mixing/mastering/anything of recordings by said artists and a person could say that her/his work was used for recordings of those artists. Many, if not all, of those mentioned musicians have had their recordings worked on in some way relatively recently, including after their deaths. If Michael Green did contribute to such an establishment, he could truthfully say he was involved. Maybe not sitting there during recording sessions of Yesterday or Hey Jude, but there would be some involvement. Think about Bob Ludwig’s studio. Many well-known artists’ recordings have been worked on there. Whoever supplied monitors can say she/he was involved in the process and these are the names who used it.
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audiopoint,
Sorry, only later I realized you did address the possibility that Steinway was some friend or anyone else named that way and not the piano company itself.
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What makes extremely low frequency seismic energy much harder to reduce than induced energy? Is it possible to reduce extremely low frequency seismic energy at all or it is only possible to reduce the transmission of it? |
jf47t, "I see you guys are trying to prove your case by "Talking" on someone else’s forum"
I have not been to Tuneland in a couple of days so situation there might have changed, but at that time I could not recognize anyone from here there while I could recognize those from there here. It seemed that guy(s) from Tuneland were trying to prove their case by "Talking" on someone else’s forum first. Participants from Audiogon were invited, multiple times and in not-so-subtle ways, to check out Tuneland. Belittling them for eventually doing it would be a move not worth discussing further. Discussion here about springs, isolation, energy of any kind is interesting. Unfortunately, it too often gets cut short in mad insults to the other party and focus shifts to the personalities instead of matter discussed. Forums are, by their nature, talking. They are inevitably a written form of communication which is also "talking". Making fun of people "talking" on the forum is puzzling. At the same time, it is understandable if you are not familiar with accepted ways international scientific conferences are conducted. There is a lots of talking, but not too many experiments performed in the auditorium. I have not met anyone who claimed that such meetings have no merit. At least not anyone worth listening to. |
mitch2
Bring your favorite Kevlar suit for that game.
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jf47t,
I just went back and read some of the michaelgreenaudio posts from this and a few other threads. Yes, can we have that guy back? Exchange him for you? Pretty please.
By the way, I seem to be defending Michael Green as a person, and even some of his approaches, more than you do. That is sad.
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jf47t, "Forums usually use words, drawings and pictures to illustrate points." I tried to find anything but words on Audiogon forum, but no success. I am hardly a character here, but I will take a credit. Even a negative one. You can take fame, though. Original post failed to recognize one simple thing. There are different ways to approach most of the things. Many have pointed it out in different ways, but essence has been the same. It is unrelated to tuning, but is related to music reproduction and even recording, yesterday, or the day before, I ran into a youtube video. It is quite clearly a promotional stuff, but also gives an insight in how people work. The man talks a lot, but does not seem to be faking too much. His approach to the room he is recording other musicians in is more of a "well, I got used to it" and the room is, even to me, suspicious at best when it comes to acoustics. It was surprising, but he does have some credentials when it comes to music reproduction so be it. I have a hard time believing that none of the Michael Green suggested ideas work, but I feel the way they are presented, and attitude that comes with it, is not doing them a favor. I think that asking for real scientific (formulae, graphs, etc.) explanations will not be useful in this particular case. It will just expose that Michael Green has no answer of that kind which, I think, is just fine. Forcing him to do it, and him trying to come up with something resembling explanation using "scientific" terms is neither fair nor useful. He freely admitted he has no PhD in physics and that he is not wired that way, if I can use that term. At the same time, just dismissing anyone who asks more exact questions is not valuable, either. Neither approach brings anything that can be used for conclusion in this case. |
jf47t,
I am not assuming Michael Green does not have a PhD in physics. I concluded that from his mini-biographies that I did find interesting indeed. If I am mistaken, I will take the blame although partial fault may be on him for presenting himself incorrectly. However, you are in Las Vegas after all, I would gamble that his thesis was not on the dynamics of fluids, air included.
I am not sure what "more organic approach to life" really means. It surely appears like a sweet choice of meaningless words.
Asking people to fish for explanations, that seem fishy to many in the first place, may not be the best approach to explaining.
My personality is whatever it is and, if you are correct about him, Michael Green and I share one same trait. Give me a point in your wide-open admiring eyes for that. We both are not disturbed by some unknown person behind the computer screen throwing insults at us. It seems that both of us are confident in ourselves and what we do. Also remember, you have no idea what other people on this thread have done in their lives. Do not make Michael Green seem ridiculous by repeating that he makes so many decisions every day that others would not believe it (not exact words, but in that sense). As much as you may see it that way, refrain from presenting him as an incapable man in need of a legal guardian. He has not made it to 58 with not having any idea what he was talking about a minute ago. In fact, do not write about Michael Green at all. Better for both of you, if it is really two. Bring us Michael Green from before you appeared back. That one was annoying to many, but reasonable in his own way. Admitting that one is afraid to climb the ladder brings much more honest face to someone you describe as a faking semi-god.
Having said that, is it really true that those pictures are from 25 years ago? Hard to believe.
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