Nothing. Then more nothing. At least you’re consistent, gloopson. Hey, I think I feel a poem coming on. Next up, the complete lyrics to the old standard, Lost in the Ozone Again.
Good mornin’ starshine, You lead us along
My love and me as we sing
our early mornin’ singin’ song
Glibby gloop gloopy Nibby Nabby Noopy La La La Lo Lo
Sabba Sibby Sabba Nooby abba Nabba Le Le Lo Lo
Tooby ooby walla nooby abba nabba
Early mornin’ singin’ song
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Whatever. Maybe you didn’t hear me. I said I did not insult him. End of discussion. What are you, suddenly the forum psychologist? Did someone die and make you the moderator? Give me a break. Go bother someone else.
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Gloopson, I’m not trying to start a fight and no offense, but since you and prof seem to enjoy this art of chit chat and debate so much, the next logical step is to play the cancer card. It would be quite difficult to prove that Tuning does not cause cancer. And no offense to amg56 who either has cancer or may have cancer. Is amg56 a tuner? Is he a tweaker? Maybe tweaking causes cancer, too. Do Tuning and Tweaking make hair grow on your palms? Stay tuned, folks, maybe we’ll find out, if prof and gloopson are on their toes. As for your friend and humble scribe, I’m filing this latest round of pretend debate under, What about this? What about that? Oh, honorable mention to mapman who’s been scrambling to stay in the fight and almost connected on a couple jabs.
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@theaudiotweak Huh? You’re the one hiding behind a moniker. My life is an open book.
By the way, has the cat got your tongue? I’m asked you many times for an explanation of the super duper Polarity of Shear thing you keep lording over everybody. You said you would but then you copped out. Are you copping out again. What are you afraid of? 🙀
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@glupson Bite me. Get a life.
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You’re right about that. I don’t comprehend. I must be too stupid.
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Whoa! Dude, you’re on the wrong thread. You need to go over to one of the Cable threads and threaten to leave.
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Perhaps brother Robert is being a tad argumentative. The other feller actually said “picture” not “imagine.” It’s a figure of speech, anyway, for crying out loud. So all your huffing and puffing about imaginary and imaginary engineering come across a little bit desperate. Cut us some slack, Jack.
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Once you see the word yourself in a sentence you know it’s probably time for an intervention.
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It’s pretty obvious what he would say. “I’m very skeptical and what about this and what about that,” but take two pages to say it. 😀
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Every picture tells a story, don’t it? Well, actually in this hobby, they oft don’t tell you much. They especially don’t tell you much about the sound.
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More like the Fryers Club if you ask me. 🐔🐔 🐔 🐔 |
prof
jf47t,
1. If you are honest.
And
2. If the techniques you and MG espouse are sound.....
>>>>Oh, please. I know for a fact they are honest, trustworthy, clean, brave and reverent. Go back and read Zen and the Art of Debunkery some more.
When did you stop beating your wife?
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theaudiotweak
Was the nail made of a steel alloy or something more musically satisfying like a brass screw. Was the screw head then painted over and filled in with Total Contact. My choice. Tom
>>>>Not sure I go along with your detective work. Brass is rather low on my list of preferred materials for audio applications. Notice the correlation of preferrability to hardness.
from best to worst,
Diamonds
NASA grade diamond hardness ceramics
Tempered High Carbon steel
Aluminum
Carbon Fiber
Brass
This is not to say other materials can be very good when used as platforms, Top plates for isolation stands, that sort of thing, but the key characteristic is usually hardness. Hardness on the Moh scale of hardness. So, this is where we kind of agree, since very hard materials allow the energy to escape the bounds of the system, especially in isolation systems.
What I propose is a comprehensive approach using BOTH energy management employing damping plus hard materials along with vibration isolation. For example the circuit boards must be isolated from the transformer and the CD transport must be damped. Just to name two. The transformer can also be removed and relocated elesewhere which is what I think MG does sometimes. This comprehensive plan of attack will ALWAYS produce the very best results. And doesn’t require constant attention and Tuning.
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jf47t, he’s like a Gila monster. Once his jaws clamp down on you you’ll never be able to get him off. Anyone have a Jaws of Life handy?
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theaudiotweak
We also have a resulting tuning method though when implemented, it is stasis by material, shape and understanding of energy flow and direction. The only change that may occurr is when we increase our understanding of shaped materials and offer them to the public to install if they wish. Tom
>>>>So, let me get this straight. You guys apparently have a mission statement and standard operating procedure to let the vibrations flow freely, right? And this mission statement and SOP obviously precludes the use of vibration isolation, right? In fact, if I can be so bold, you guys actually believe that vibration isolation is not (rpt not) possible, correct me if I’m wrong.
So, are you guys claiming a scientific conspiracy of massive proportions that the project to detect and observe gravity waves LIGO uses a complex and comprehensive system of vibration isolation (they say is) required to isolate and stabilize the optics and other critical parts of the experiment from extremely low frequency vibration? If so, surely you jest. 😀 in fact it was the development of advanced vibration isolation systems that finally led to the observation of gravity waves from an ancient merger of black holes a couple of years ago.
Everyone and his brother knows shape is an important aspect of isolation and energy control. That is why the Super DH (Diamond Hardness) Cone is superior in performance to the Jumbo DH cone which is the same basic size but slightly different shape. We’ve known that for more than 20 years, probably more than 25 years.
Is this thread now suddenly the Clash of the Tuning titans?
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audiopoint
My question for you is; what does hardness have to do with attack, sustain and decay qualities related to sound reproduction equipment or musical instruments?
>>>>Let me answer with a question. Why are the very hardest cones have the best performance and the softer cones like brass and carbon fiber sound the worst?
Pop quiz: Why is seismic vibration much more important for SQ than acoustic vibration or induced vibration? Especially for vinyl playback.
Extra credit: Why is the material of the top plate of a vibration isolation stand relatively immaterial, to use a word?
When you can answer those questions you will answer your own question.
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Caring about music and caring about sound are (mostly) two different things. I suspect many musicians probably don’t think too much about sound per se or may even wear ear plugs, not that I would know, but I have a hunch. Any more than some dude with a boom box. Besides, using a professional musician to try to back up some audiophile argument or another is an Appeal to....you know.
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Funny story. Once upon a time I went over to this dude’s house to demo a product. He was a musician, first oboe in National Symphony Orchestra, DC. He was also a dealer for Cello high end audio products and his system comprised all Cello, including drop dead gorgeous 8” tall piano black finish Cello speakers, biamped with Cello amps, plus what I reckon to be $10K of room treatment. So imagine my disappointment and horror when I heard what may have been the worst sound ever to emanate from a hi fi system. So much for the theory that all musicians have golden ears.
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Actually, the conclusions one should draw from my ill-fated visit to the first oboist go much deeper than that, in view of the fact that we tend to put musicians, especially ones who play in big orchestras, on Olympus, since they presumably know good sound. You know, live acoustic music. Hel-loo! One could also point the finger in other directions, like a dealer in high end gear cannot hear, that room treatment is not a silver bullet, and that just because something looks fabulous or is expensive, which Cello stuff definitely is, doesn’t mean anything. It also implies what I was saying before, a photo of a room, a system, a component, guts in guts out, doesn’t mean anything.
I also said there’s no Audio Nirvana. There is no absolute sound. It can always be improved, no matter what. Although, judging from comments by the cheering section on the Graphene thread, some folks appear to think they’ve achieved it. This is a different idea from the ideas that people can’t hear properly, or don’t know what they’re listening to, or that they’re all thumbs. I will refrain from extrapolating this whole idea to include recording engineers, exhibitors at Shows, reviewers and just plain folks with really big expensive systems. |
Glupson, you disappoint me. Appeal to Authority. Hel-loo! Hey, that rhymed! Write Appeal to Authority on the blackboard 100 times.
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Wow! I just relayed the story, gentle readers, of the musician high up in the food chain who was apparently unable to hear properly or didn’t know what he was listening to. Then right out of the blue I’m attacked by the professor who, if memory serves, cannot for the life of him hear the difference for vibration isolation or cables. Coincidence?
I’ve seen stalkers o’er my day....😬 |
Gee whiz, glupson, you’re over thinking again. I judged his system sucked. No hidden meaning. That’s the advantage of knowing the difference between bad sound and good sound. I realize as I’m typing you probably have no idea what I’m talking about. 😀 I know what’s coming next. But what about this, what about that? 😛 look, I’m going to help you out. Here are some suggested questions,
1. What makes you a better judge of sound than a professional musician?
2. What if your hearing is actually bad and you’re deluded?
3. How can you be so sure of your hearing ability? Don’t you have any doubt?
4. Can you prove your hearing ability in a blind test? |
I respect that you will always respond. Even when there’s absolutely no reason to. 😬
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As fate would have it they were Grado SR-80s the whole time. Duh? You were probably napping when I mentioned it earlier somewhere. As fate would also have it, I picked up brand sparking new Grado SR-60s just three days ago for $5 which I’ll be using for my portable cassette player. Once I get rid of the abominable ear pads and foam, of course. What was Joe thinking? See, there’s my perception of sound thing again.
Thanks for asking. 😬 Questions, you have questions? Shirley, there must be some others. |
@audiopoint,
I kind of went the way of MG’s Low Mass System concept, more by coincidence really, inasmuch as I downsized about 3 years ago to the point where there is no more amplifier, no more World’s Most Modded Oppo CD Player, no more House AC, no finicky AC Ground, no power cords, no interconnects, no speaker cables, no big toxic transformers, no more fuses, no multitude of electrical connections to worry about, no chassis to fret about.
And because I went to a headphone system there is no more concern about room treatments, at least the usual ubiquitous ones. I do actually employ many thousands of the unspeakable type of treatments around the house as you can perhaps image. Perhaps not. 😬 In any case, my current system of Made in Japan Panasonic portable CD player and naked Grado SR-80 headphones are pretty light. Just to be on the safe side the Panny is up on a highly specialized isolation platform which is mostly glass crystal and glass and glass micro beads for high mass, all of which are up on some springs of my design.
The Crystal Palace or Palace of Solitude as I like to call it comes in around 50 lbs. so, I kind of doubt there would be a place for a Sistrum but I appreciate the offer. I suggest you try some springs directly under whatever component you have sitting on a Sistrum. You know, for isolation. Never up, never in. Besides, doesn’t MG use springs?
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And to think people sometimes accuse me of shooting fish in a barrel.
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tomcy6
Geoff, Where do you place the Brilliant Pebbles, Super Intelligent Chip, Codename Turquoise and other products of yours in your new system?
>>>>There is no place in the system now for Brillisnt Pebbles. Mostly Brilliant Pebbles is for room acoustics. In the old days the original Intelligent Chip was placed on TOP of the CD Player. Then a CD was played for two seconds to treat the CD. My SUPER Intelligent Chip is designed to be placed inside the player where the reaction to the laser light is more intense. For a portable CD player the chip is attached to the inside top the case. For an ordinary player it’s usually placed on the Mini CD tray just below the CD tray. I do not use the chip myself since they are somewhat labor intensive. The chip is intelligent because it knows when a CD has already been treated. It is not smart enough to know when it’s run out of hits, but I know. 😀
Codename Turquoise covers the top and bottom areas inside the case.
I also use Flying Saucers for Windows, Flying Saucers for Unused wall outlets, Blue Meanies for walls, Green Meanie for ceilings, Quantum Temple Bell, Morphic Message Lables (I go through many pages of labels per month). And of course the Clever Little Clock, the more the better. One customer of mine has about twenty now. Many customers have more than one.
I use a boatload of other things that are not my products, like Mpingo disc, Graphene TC and DH Cones, but many are not in scope of this question. They fall under the category of Unspeakable. Also cryogenics I still do after all these years. I also just dug out my Liquid Resolution CD treatment I had stashed away. Heh heh
tomcy6
Did you phone yourself for the Teleportation Tweak and did it make a dramatic difference if you did?
>>>Every time I do the Teleportation Tweak for a customer I also treat my own system as as consequence. The TT is very dramatic but mostly for the customer. There is only so much juice you can squeeze out of an orange. 🍊 When a customer gets a new phone he usually calls back for another TT. Or if he has more than one phone. When the TT first started it was for myself only. Then it occurred to be it might work long distance. Then the technique started to evolve.
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Hey, this thread reminds of the days not that long ago with MG et al over on Stereophile forum, where we dooked it out for months on end, right along with May Belt, who it turns out was sitting next to Peter (RIP) at the computer whilst typing. We did the Mash, we did the Monster Mash. It caught on in a flash. Much fun was had by all, including the moderators. 🤡
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Give me a strong enough spring and I’ll isolate the whole world. It was the humble spring that allowed scientists to finally be able to observe gravity waves, which are quite camera shy and hard to see, especially given their amplitudes of what, about the diameter of an atomic nucleus? But are springs really mechanical transfer devices? Or are they isolators? They cannot be “grounders.” You are the decider. 🙄
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glupson
geoffkait,
"Every time I do the Teleportation Tweak for a customer I also treat my own system as as consequence."
How often is that?
>>>>Often enough.
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theaudiotweak
So called audio isolaters should be called restrictors or retainers. Ligo may succeed in restricting all forms of motion and hence no sound. In audio you need motion for reproduction to be heard. Audio isolaters cannot discern the difference between a wave direction needed and one that should be reduced or grounded.
>>>>>I don’t know what you’re talking about but what I’m talking about is Springs. Specifically mass-on-spring isolation. This is not rpt not some wild unscientific theory or crazy audiophile idea. To argue that isolation is not possible or that Springs are not isolators is rather short-sighted, to say the least, perhaps even a lot more. This is what happens when folks Stove Pipe. They are hyper focused on whatever and neglect to see what is going on in the rest of the world. Stovepiping oft leads to bizarre and fallacious conclusions.
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I’m seeing a pattern here.
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When folks don’t take me seriously I simply think, there but for the grace of God....no skin off my nose, Troll. You obviously ran out of ammo a long time ago. Why can’t there be more of me? 😳
Sorry I blew your cover. At least it’s nice to know who the people are MG was referring to in his OP. Fakes. 😀 |
Get thee behind me, Troll! 👹
Oops, did I just blow your cover? |
You’re right, you’re not faking being a troll. But not an entertaining one or one with good questions, even your loaded questions are pedestrian and rather dumb. All the lonely trolls, where do they all come from? 👹 👹 👹 Are trying to bore everyone to death? ☠️
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That’s so funny I almost forgot to laugh. The question is are you loaded? Only a drunk would post this stuff. I suspect you probably use a walker. |
Actually, I always considered you a troll. You know, it’s my Troll-dar. But thanks for the explanation, anyway.
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glupson
jf47t,
That was innovative. Thanks.
>>>>See, why is it always the talker who feels compelled to respond to every single post? Come on, people! Snarkolepsy is a misunderstood malfunction. If I can be a little snarky myself glupson sounds a bit like a Cub Scout ogling a Playboy magazine.
Snar-ko-lep-sy
A psychological disfunction in which the person is sleepwalking but still snarky. Often found in trolls and wannabes.
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kosst_amojan
Why’s there this sideways expectation that folks aren’t legit audiophiles unless they indulge in all the snake oil?
>>>>>Well, in glupson’s case, it’s because he’s told us he isn’t a legit audiophile. He even said last night he’s just an onlooker, that he has nothing to contribute. Duh! 🙄 In the case of some of the others here, I suspect they’re either disinterested, overly skeptical or don’t get good results with what little they do so they give up. Sound familiar, Costco?
I’m walking,
Through streets that are dead
Walking,..
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Prof
He’s then asked reasonable questions such as:
1. What measurements can you present to support your claim there are changes between a tied and untied capacitor?
2. How do you relate those measurements to audibility?
3. How did you test this hypothesis while controlling for variables like imagination and bias?
Then the OP runs away from those questions. And has an underling take his place in continually avoiding any tough questions, supplying instead constant over-the-top praise of the OP.
Leaving us to question the OP’s actual commitment to empiricism and "walking."
>>>>All of which makes no sense because empirical implies either measurement or observation. Duh! So this whole Strawman argument is just another troll. Prof hasn’t done his homework, even his Uber Skeptic’s arguments are flawed. It’s SO obvious. Demands for proof and measurements are the last resort of the dedicated pseudo skeptic. 😡
I tell you I can visualize it all
This couldn't be a dream for too real it all seems
But it was just my imagination once again runnin' way with me
Tell you it was just my imagination runnin' away with me
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dimora
Anyone who believes placing wooden blocks under their CD transport makes an audible difference should be immediately dismissed.
>>>>>Are you calling them blockheads? 🤖 🤖 🤖 🤖
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Uh, Robert, we’ve already covered the dodgy subject of why low mass systems have advantages over, you could even say they’re superior to, high mass systems. Your friend and humble scribe laid out all the gory details the other day. Were you on holiday? Here it is again in compressed form. I am not trying to put words in Michael’s mouth, by the way. He almost certainly has his own words. These are my own observations with my own low mass system. Ooops, there’s that word again! Observations.
Low Mass System Advantages
No big honking 🦆 transformer or one that has been removed and relocated elsewhere.
No big capacitors that vibrate and shift the phase.
No large chassis that vibrates.
No fuse to worry about.
Minimizes internal wiring, about 50% of which is soldered in the wrong direction anyway. Plus there is simply LESS things to distort the signal or vibrate.
Lightweight components are easier to isolate from vibration.
Cost is much lower. You can spend more on tweaks or whatever. 😄
If the low mass system is battery powered (like mine) you get all the advantages of getting off the grid, eliminating ground issues and power cord issues, including RF coming in on the AC line. Also, no fuse, no transformer, no interconnects, no speaker cable. No more teacher’s dirty looks. 🤨
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thecarpathian
Oh, my. jf47t, I believe that is what's called having your a*s handed to you....
>>>>It seems you’re wearing yours on your head. 🤡
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It seems to me real audiophiles, shall we call them the doers or the walkers, are oft viewed by non audiophiles and anti tweakers, you know, the idlers or the talkers, as kind of kooky or fringe or weird, or even cultish. Nothing new there. Have you ever watched an audiophile perform a ritualistic treatment of a CD before each play? I used to think that was a little obsessive. 😬
Reading glupson’s story of his visit is reminiscent of watching some teetering eighth graders looking through their first Glamour magazine. Hard to believe there are such virgins. 👶 Why, it’s almost like he thinks this is the invasion of the body snatchers.
I’m not trying to set the world on fire, just start a flame 🔥 in a few hearts. ♥️
- Kooky Burns
”Turn on, tune in, drop dead.” - Alfred E. Newman 😬
Made the scene, week to week
Day to day, hour to hour
The gate is straight
Deep and wide
Break on through to the other side
Break on through to the other side
Break on through, break on through
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glupson
Tunelandization of Audiogon!
>>>>>>
”Advertising is like learning. A little can be a dangerous thing.” PT Barnum
”Everything good must be marketed.” PT Barnum
”People would generally be much better off if they believed in too much rather than too little.” PT Barnum
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glupson jf47t, https://www.michaelgreenaudio.net/roomtune-rtd2Slide show on above page (I think it is slide 9) has decibel with capital D, but abbreviation as db. It would be more correctly dB and decibel. Not a biggie, but just so you know. >>>>A typical English major comment. “Not a biggie.” You got that right. 😝 |
It appears we have a meeting of the minds, as it were. 🧠 🧠 ♥️
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glupson
Tunelandization of Audiogon!
And? You are the primary promoter. The big cheese. 🧀 Are you bucking for a promotion?
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Innocent question, was glupson sent by Audiopoint? Just curious. 🙄
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