Here’s another thread http://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/pieces-of-music-that-digital-can-t-get-right In this one it talks about things that digital can’t do. Ok, so I have several copies of "Ventura Highway" on digital, and I can make any adjustment I wish to the signal. here’s a quote "On the opening of America’s "Ventura Highway" the opening dueling guitars are ambient and bounce off each channel very pleasantly in the analog domain. In the digital domain the channels are totally separate and too clean and sterile lifeless sounding. They are not talking to each other It was like this with ny Marantz 8005 but the SA-10 gets halfway there." ___________________________________________________________ Not so (or not so for him). On my digital I can make the dueling ping pong sound any way I wish through variably tuning it. This is the action of the playback system, not the recording. mg |
Steve, sorry but your post makes me giggle, and once again we have two good examples of why the OP was made. Steve followed up by uber of course. No Biggie though, this thread has amazed me and many others a few times. Steve, I'm quite sure your BS detector went off cause that's the type of person you are. My BS detector goes off often here as well, but I'm a big enough boy not to get in a huff about it. Life is too short, music is too fun. If you are confused about empirical research, testing and evidence I'm sure you can return to your wiki pages and study a little more. Of course uber hasn't seen any answers because that's not his agenda. Pretty simple stuff here folks! MG |
Actually Glupson (as has been pointed out on at least half of the pages) the questions have been answered. Some people have come up and said "I get it" and others stay on spin cycle upset that the answers given were not to their liking. check this out Steve has a problem with the term "empirical testing", yet he or any first grader can type the term into a search engine and see where it takes them. Almost all the topics or Q&As on this forum can be dealt with the same way. Learning how to use a computer is about the easiest thing on the planet, but some of these audiophiles need to be heard or need to hear themselves. They need to have that battle of the talkers. This thread challenges us to be more than talkers.
MG |
Hope everyone is having a great weekend! We’ve got the music playing, the game on, and steaks on the grill. I’ll visit with you guys in a little bit. But before I get back to the game I want to thank you guys for asking about me and my products. here's another review for you to enjoy
MG http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/db05.htm |
Hi Uberwaltz Not sure I follow you, you're coming to Vegas? MG |
Hi Steve No slam intended on your education of course, I’m sure there are a lot of smart cookies in the hobby. Saying this, almost all of the stuff that gets talked about here can be explored on the internet these days. The internet is a wonderful info tool that links teaching & learning together. The courses I now take are internet based and excellent, I think. I was reading an article the other day which was saying that the internet search engines provide, for free, the education equivalent from 5 years back and closing. It will be interesting to see what takes place when internet courses take over the school system, almost there. Again of course for children there is the need for supervision up to a certain age, but once past a certain education level is a matter of internet skills and empirical research. I do like the phrase "Empirical Research" being injected into the thread. In fact so much, that if I were to be able to go back and make a change to the OP that might be one. "Empirical testing" is fast forward to "empirical research" anyway so no biggie, but I still like your point. I think subtracting the trolling here there are a lot of good points that get made on this thread. It would be interesting if this thread was edited excluding the trolling and "male" ego factor. Parts of the trolling though are entertaining. GK will no doubt go down in history for being able to spin a thread at will. But I also think he exposes a lot of Audiofools pretending to be Audiophile forum experts. That’s partially what this thread is about. The topic of "walk vs talk" is a very important and real one in the hobby. The line for people like Prof and Glupson may be fuzzy, but for the readers walking, the walking is a positive and forward progression. For the walker there’s no need for blurred lines because they already understand that audio is a variable, and variables are tunable. They know this because they are actively "Doing Tuning". They’re not questioning dust or how many times one needs to Tune, because they have stepped into the next chapter of extreme audiophile listening already. What they do question is "why are some HEA audiophiles so slow". Why are some audiophile companies (especially tweak companies) not understanding or practicing the tuning of the variables? They spend so much of their time trying to one up the next guy, they end up missing their own target. Basically they’re showing the world they only know how to "talk". What are we, the 38th page by now? By the second page of any thread on TuneLand or other advanced listening neighborhoods the "Tuning the variables" of audio would have been well on it’s way. Here on this thread people would rather talk and then more talk, to the point where the readers are getting a hold of me directly asking "what’s wrong with these kooks". Some on this thread actually think they are sparring with me somehow. That’s kooky in it’s own right, lol. The reviews have already been written, the tests have already been done and what’s most important, over 100,000 audiophiles (probably way more) are already tuning and have been for many years. anyway, now I’m boring myself Michael Green PS: are you surprised how many RS RTA folks are still around these forums, calling themselves HEA? I am. Sometimes it's like living in a time warp back to the very, as I mentioned earlier, "first grade of audio". Anyway thanks for your comments Steve! |
"lost cause" that's funny! Uberwaltz, you might be hanging out on this forum too much my friend. I'll be working on a tunable room's wood for Chicago and a reviewer is coming for a visit and some other folks, but let's see how our schedules work out. Here's my email michael@michaelgreenaudio.com Michael |
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"Michael: After I last posted here I checked out your website to learn what this tuning stuff is all about. I see you have several approaches to optimizing the triad of audio elements. So we are alike in that I have sought my own version of "tuning" through the years, but my approach is very different than yours." Hi Steve Feel free to join us on the TuneLand forum. Cool to see you using Pierre's products! Michael Green |
Hi kosst, what’s your friends name? I’ll be happy to look him up! Hi bdp, so your using Art’s products, cool!
Use to be fun going up against ASC and RPG back in the 90’s. Video magazine did a showdown between us. RoomTune came out on top, cheers all around. But that’s not the point I’m making or why I'm here. I’m saying that "tuning" is where the hobby is at. Doesn’t matter to me what your walking with or who, what matters is, this is a hobby of exploration. The more you dig the more you find. Michael Green |
Actually bdp24 I'd love for this to be a Q&A, I'm just not up for the trolling. I don't mean only trolling me but trolling period. It takes up way too much time to weed through fields here. The good news for me is most the serious folks email me directly, which has been pretty cool and I have enjoyed it. If it ever does chill out here, I'm more than happy to chat. MG |
Hi Glupson Don’t worry you didn’t miss anything. I just did what kosst said to do. kosst said google his friend so I did and posted the search here. I also bing-ed JC Griffin and posted that search here. Evidently kosst didn’t like the search results, who knows. I just did what the man asked. MG |
Well there you have it on the kosst story, next? Hi Glipson As you did, I did exactly what kosst suggested so I could see who he was talking about. kosst said "I sort of follow recording engineers and producers if I feel they're getting a particularly good sound of out their work, and these guys tend to be in high demand. I went to school with a guy who's recorded produced Billboard charting albums. I just Googled him. The second, third, forth, fifth, and sixth results were for him. I've been to his studio a few times. He's helped me sort out my room. I can find the guy on the internet!!!! He's got credits to his name! He actually produces results for paying, professional musicians! He does good work! He's the real deal. And I'd take his acoustic advice over MG's every single second of the week." __________________________________________________ So I simply asked for the guy's name. kosst gave it so I looked him up, no biggie. Like you would (even more so with a name like Michael Green) you see a ton of folks. That's how search engines work. The OP says "why be fake". To this kosst gives the answer "As for who I am, I go out of my way to avoid identifying myself or sticking out in a crowd. Anything I write either has no name or a fake name. I don't even give people my real name when I order food." So here is a guy who gets furious over me even though my background is as documented as can be, while he goes out of his way to give fake names. This is another example of why the OP was written. Michael Green |
bdp says "MG says he’s happy to do Q & A, so ask the questions to which you desire answers. Let’s see if he will, conversely ;-), talk it like he walks it." to which I say Michael Green or tons of designers would be more than happy to do Q&As here. However MG and these other designers are not about swimming in troll infested waters. At the same time, answers to the questions I get here, I can answer them on the TuneLand forum avoiding the trolls. If Agon would get rid of trolling you would find a lot of industry folks come to these pages. I wrote this in an email to Agon some time ago. I think personally it would be a healthy thing, monitored correctly. As I have said before, when the local stereo stores started going out of business in the 90’s, that was the beginning of designers loosing their connection to the end user through a 3rd person representative. This was a sad day for neighborhoods. Since that time a new paradigm has been in the making, not yet baked to the fullest but slowly evolving. I believe part of this evolution has been audio forums. It hasn’t always worked out, but has on some forums. As I have told Audiogon though, if the paradigm includes internet trolling these forums will fade into the archives along with this generation of HEA. I’m very open to discuss with Agon if they are interested, but the one thing I stressed and still do stress is having a troll free forum. I have done this on both of my forums and I know other forums have implemented this as well on theirs. Audio Circle has pulled it off to a degree, but it can go even further so that everyone has a voice without discrimination. I even think trolls can have their own playground, and as time goes on can graduate into the general audio population. If any would be interested in my suggestions I’m happy to give them, like I am happy to answer questions (troll free). Think about it. Do you have any idea how many readers of Agon would become "posters" of Agon if it was troll free? Michael Green |
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Hi Uberwaltz If you look at TuneLand you don't see trolling, anywhere. That's because there is a common spirit of putting music, the history of music, people's systems and experiences first. For other forums removing trolling isn't that hard and once a few of the obvious trolls are banned it doesn't take long for the more mature posters to start putting the disobedient ones in their places. On these forums, behind the scenes, there is a place called permissions. In that place you can assign where a person can go or not. Folks who get out of line can have their permissions limited. It would be actually easier to have the mods give permissions than having to make report judgement calls. As it is right now, the mods are listening to several sides of an issue with each making their case and the mod has to decide who to delete or not delete. Some forums have mods who come up and say "be nice now", then issue a warning, then ban. On a forum like this I would have levels of mods. One would be a peer mod. There are several members on here who would make excellent peer mods, you usually find them in the music section. These are guys who put listening to music above any of the other issues, and almost always are encouraging others regardless of their systems. You can also divide things up. The greet and meet section is a place where folks can work out their getting to know each other issues. A lot of times on here folks don't get along only because they don't know each other. A greet and meet forum would be a place where you post your own system (with pictures) and give background. Then you have the debate forum. This is where you go to discuss topics and give your point of view. The way I would monitor these threads is easy. You must give your name and profession. If someone has a strong opinion they should be showing who they are. You then have your industry forums. Those get monitored by the industry members themselves. The industry member moderating the forum pays a monthly fee of $30.00-$50.00 to Audiogon for this right. These threads should have words and pictures. The main thing here is to make an Audiogon community. Michael Green |
Hi Tom I’m not sure when you became an Audiogoner. I believe our last ads here would have been around 2004 or so. Steven at that time visited my place here in Vegas and discussed what the future of Audiogon might look like, along with the rest of HEA. Richard Beers and I had similar talks (among others), where was HEA going and how does it get there. HEA as a whole turned out to be a lot slower to getting there (wherever there was to be) then any of us thought. Lots of great ideas around that time but little momentum. HEA should have grown but somehow went in reverse. Around the same time I was offered two pretty sweet deals that took my focus away from HEA. One was with my dream company Herman Miller and the other the chance to design an entire music department for SUNY, two opportunities there was no way I was going to pass up. I dipped my toe a few times back in HEA, but there has always been enough private clients to keep me going without jumping in with both feet. Now that the Tuning Buzz is back in swing, we’ll see. Thanks for asking! I’ve just made a shipment off to Malaysia to some great listeners and I’m excited to see their response to the Rev Speakers. As you know there is a Tunable Room already there full of my goodies, so we’ll see how the speakers fit in. The speakers also just got another great review so, yes, I’m tip toeing around spending some ad money when the time is right. On Audiogon though, as I told them, I’m not so much interested in doing ads here until the internet trolling is cleared up on the forum. I thrive off of good vibes not bad, so I’m somewhat into building good vibes here, but the jury is still out on if it will take hold. In the meantime I’m still trying to figure out how to proceed with Vegas. Finding the right place, the right size, has been interesting. Moving on the Strip I found that my place is now way too small and even renting another space here to add to it, I’m still too cramped plus zoning, aarrggg. The last 3 weeks I’ve been house shopping so I can get these current Tunable Rooms out to folks. Always a balance these days, either too far out of town or too little space for the bigger projects. Thank God I have the greatest clients (friends) in the biz. take care Tom, hope you and Robert are doing well and have enjoyed the summer Michael Green |
Hi Uberwaltz The definition is simple. "In Internet slang, a troll is a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the Internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses and normalizing tangential discussion, whether for the troll’s amusement or a specific gain." Who writes the guidelines? Audiogon. It’s Audiogon’s forum. It’s either going to be here tomorrow or it won’t. That’s a decision only they can make. We can give our thoughts on this, but what they do as a company will determine their fate. Time isn’t going to stand still for any of us and opportunities are always there if people choose to use them. I would say 95% of the people who visit this forum have good vibes or good vibe potential. I would also say, if you get rid of the haters who can’t change their ways the rest of the people on borderline will start or continue to project their best self. When folks hang around bad vibes they in time adopt those bad vibes, however the reverse is also true. There’s no need to over think it, it will just happen. It’s all about sewing seeds. Ultimately people want to be on an upswing. For some it comes natural and for others it’s tough cause they don’t really feel good about themselves or the cards they think they have been dealt. With the folks who don’t have true self esteem you will always find two traits. One they will lie, and two, they will be the first to say someone else is lying. The definition of trolls is pretty easy when you think about it. Michael Green |
Hi analogluvr You think I'm being hypocritical? You know, if I thought I was I wouldn't be here. If one of my friends pulled me aside and said I was I would leave as well. My friends say "why waste your time" but they don't say I'm being anything but trying to promote tuning. I am also still getting emails from Agon members thanking me for taking the time to post here. If it were the other way around I would go. But I think Agon has an opportunity to change the face of audio forums if they want to. And, I believe this would be a big step forward for the hobby. Michael Green |
"free advertising ride" I like that Glupson! :) I think Starsound should relax and enjoy the view. Hop on the MG train. Hey, it's what put Audio Points on the map the first time around and now that their design has changed there's no need to stay mad at me (don't know why they were mad at me in the first place). They probably should say they are not the original any more though, now that they too have moved away from the original design. Michael Green |
"that multi-century dispute" Glupson that one, as interesting as it is, is your creation. I don't even know who these guys are past their jumping on this thread and one of them working for me years ago for 9 months. Giving it any more fuel than that doesn't have anything to do with me, past me thinking it's hilarious and them being so angry. You have packaged it into a nice paperback novel though. I'm just glad they didn't show up at my front door with guns and knives. Saying that, to me the mystery is over anyway because they have changed the design moving away from the audiopoint as I did many years ago. The question now is why were they mad at me at all, and for so long? If they found that they needed to change the original product as I discovered needed to be done back in the 90's why be upset? It's very strange and a little scary, and really shouldn't have anything to do with me. but, it's still a good murder mystery script.
mg |
No way Glupson! LOL No way buddy! this is you and those guys
MG |
Glupson Do you think it is wise to keep fueling their anger? This is on you my friend. MG |
Hi Uberwaltz you said "To my knowledge Audiogon has never done anything yet about trolls or trolling of its own volition." Yep, that's too bad. A lot of missed opportunities for Agon. If these pages were cleaned up they would get a ton more activity. The folks who have emailed me say that there are hardly any new people coming up as compared to what use to be. Part of that has got to be the bad vibe allowed here. Glupson Members wouldn't pay a fee designers would. Audio Circle is setup like that. Designers pay a small fee and the designers have their own space on the forum. MG |
Glupson Here's what I think and you can take it anyway you want, or do with it whatever you wish. Some people are insane with hatred. Others feed off of this type of thing and feed into it. When you feed it, you become a part of the cycle. Like I said, do what you wish but leave me out of it please. thanks MG |
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I'm glad Stereophile was brought up. Something I have done over the past several years is watch the tide of readers and posters rise or drop. While DIY and computer audio forums are holding their own and bringing in younger crowds. HEA forums are in serious decline just as the expensive products are. Who would have ever guessed that a forum hosted by TAS would end up folding? Stereophile's forum is almost gone or at least a graveyard. This forum is now on the decline. A few weeks ago a member here had me take a look at the activity here, pointing out how many different posters were posting on any given subject years ago and how now there are the same posters on every thread. I was not surprised, but did wonder why Audiogon would allow this to happen. Maybe they are not paying attention or maybe they are going to let it go until it is too late. Or maybe they have plans in the works behind the scenes. However it works out this forum is hemorrhaging members. The world has changed and people's priorities have moved on from being involved in the fascination of internet trolling. As I said on Stereophile "if you don't turn away you will die" I also said that to JA directly. The Stereophile forum in a few month's of that became a graveyard. The old saying goes "it's not a matter of if but when". People are leaving here to sell on Ebay, Audiomart and several other places. It can be debated why, but by the time that debate has concluded the buyers & sellers here will already be gone. I have no doubt at all that the owners of this site are looking to what the future brings. They've got to be aware of the market decline, but what I wonder is are they able to move from negative to positive? Whoever grabs the positive ring first will be the winner. As for me, I'm sticking with the positives. The negative folks can continue to die off or self implode. They'll go down kicking a screaming and trying to pull down as many as they can, but the end result will be the same. To those folks I say, "Nah". How many senior citizens can you turn from positive to negative? Who cares. For every one negative audiophile there are a hundred positive ones. I've said, and continue to say, "everyone paints their own picture". I hope Audiogon is able to find that positive place. I know the on-lookers here desire that, but for how long will the interest stay here while trolls run free? Like on TAS and Stereophile, I don't think long. Michael Green http://www.michaelgreenaudio.net/tunable-speakers |
JC seems like a nice guy! He returned my message within minutes. |
No biggie kosst I'll see if I kind find out from JC what's up with your anger trip. Michael Green |
I wouldn’t be to happy with you either pulling that kind of stunt. I would hardly call 8:30pm all night. Kosst the next time you go attacking ones career consider the consciences. And the next time you call me a clown JC Griffin will be getting another message asking him why he has you running loose at the mouth about him on a public forum. Michael Green http://www.michaelgreenaudio.net/ |
LOL uberwaltz, like I said to Glupson, don’t pull me into this stuff. This forum should be getting rid of internet trolling period. If Audiogon nailed about 3 of these guys you would see things change a lot around here. The rest of you who feed the trolls should start putting your hobby first. Life is too much fun and some here seriously need to park their keyboards for a while and deal with their issues. Now to the fun stuff. Last night I talked to the reviewer of my latest review of the Rev6 speakers (very cool guy). Nice review I appreciate it! I also got to see what’s happening in Malaysia with my Bare Essence "White" speaker wire another cool thing. Then this morning I woke up to this rumble outside my window. There’s Sam (does the over seas shipping for me) stepping out of his new AMG C43 (black on black) gorgeous! Life is good, unless you turn it bad. Guys, this hate thing is for little children. Don’t bother pulling me in on your little game cause everyone can read. Negative people will always be there to jump in the middle, and these trolls have no turn off swift. It’s the only way they can be relevant. We shouldn’t be feeding them past saying "you need to go". If you don’t draw a line, it’s only a matter of time before this forum will go the way of TAS. I hope that doesn’t happen but you guys are pushing this place closer to the edge every day and it doesn’t need to be. Michael Green |
Yep, this audio forum should run wide until it closes it's door, and it will. See you later friendly audiophile exchanges. Sorry you got mugged while you were here. Sorry Golf but that's why HEA is in dire decline. Grumpy old men are not the happy future of HEA. Not convinced come back a year from now and lets post here. See ya gang, thanks for visiting and all the different opinions. I'll see you in a month or so. http://tuneland.forumotion.com/ Thanks for the emails, I super appreciate them. MG |
Hi Glupson About a week ago I visited the forum here but only found a couple of things to post about so my visit will probably be fairly brief. This thread....https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/poorly-recorded-songs-that#1650805 ….pretty much sums up the status quo. People not yet understanding "playback". As far as the Stereophile forum, today when I looked, there was only one active member signed in, John A. On my forum there are a ton of posts that I need to get caught up on. Other than that on the forum front it's a big yawn. I'm getting about 100 emails a day from Facebook, so that's getting most of my attention. A nice Rev6 speaker review came out, and a RoomTune review is on it's way. If there was more going on on Audiogon I would spend a little time posting this season, but it looks like things are slowing down here quite a bit. And, it's pretty much the same posters over and over saying nothing new, so that doesn't exactly excite me and other walkers who are now turning their (our) attention to tuning. Michael http://www.michaelgreenaudio.net/ |
Thank you Mods! And thank you Facebook friends, your the best! I'm not sure what the talkers are talking about, but I'm thrilled to see the walkers getting a hold of me and other Tunees. "dopey girl from Dr. Phil" ? Sounds like someone has way too much time on their hands. lol Who's Dr. Phil? |
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Thanks for the Ad Kosst! tuneland.info 1,010,627 members Michael Green Facebook 2,884 friends most people on TuneLand at the same time 145 (new) 335 (old) Kind of cool looking at some of the numbers. Michael
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Very cool to see Roger Modjeski posting on Audiogon! I've owned several of Roger's products and was one of his dealers many moons ago. We as well featured Roger's products at some of our Trade Show rooms. Would be great to see more designers up on this forum. I told Audiogon there's no need for this thread as more designers post on the forum. If that happened (designers posting here) the trolls would eventually find somewhere else to play. Hope everyone has a wonderful Thanksgiving! And for those wanting to visit me on Facebook http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1764861045 |
So Folks, take a look at this thread http://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/the-future-of-audio-amplification This is the latest example of "Talk but not Walk?". Several of us are talking about different types of amplifiers and our experiences. There’s a lot of good sharing, and then there is " " (who has been called out on this many times) making statements without actually "doing" the experience side of things. I don’t see anyone minding that folks have differing opinions based on what they know has happened for them, but as you can see we pretty much all questioned " " about making statements as fact when, in fact, he has zero or limited experience with the topic. Why fake it? In a hobby of doing and gentlemen exchanging ideas there are those that "fake" knowledge making statements like "snake oil" when that’s the furthest from the truth. Shouting "snake oil" is only you raising the flag "you have no experience" in most cases, or the alternative you can’t hear the results of change isn’t it? That’s certainly the flag that raises for me. If you haven’t walked why talk? I don’t think anyone here mind "benchers" (hobbyist who are into the testing more then the listening). Some of us are benchers, some are theorist, some collectors of equipment brands, some casual listeners, and some more serious. Some are even just here wasting time as they have stated on this thread. But the OP here is why, in any of these cases, fake it? Why act like you know something when you haven’t explored it for yourself? The other part is, why get upset? We should hand out pins and bumper stickers "don’t get too close Angry Audiophile on board". Michael Green |
Hi Elizabeth Have you ever started a thread on your system? If so, what's the link? http://tuneland.forumotion.com/f3-home-audio-systems If you ever want to start one on TuneLand above is the page. I know of one member of TuneLand that would really get into your setup and of course there are many readers. Your an easy read and I would bet one of the favorite posters here on Agon. It would be cool for you to have a section of your own where you gave your thoughts on audio and folks could come visit with you on specifics. I would love to have that thread or section on TuneLand. Magnepan are great listening tools, iconic. There is a certain class Maggie owners bring to the hobby. I not only like the speaker and the speaker's history, but also enjoy the Magnepan owner attitude. Magnepan is part of the HEA, but more, is a true "Audiophile" product. Michael |
Merry Christmas Jafant!! I've been playing "New Riders Of The Purple Sage" all morning. Merry Christmas Agon! mg |
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Hi Clearthink I totally agree! |
Hi Hombre It's cool that your system sounds great! I'm sure everyone here is giving you a thumbs up, including me. However there's something I'm not getting from your post. If your system is a "perfectly tuned system", why would you be planning on changing your speakers? I guess I'm not following you here. Why move away from "perfect" I guess people will be asking you. Anyway, nothing like a well tuned system where almost every song sounds amazingly good. I see this is your second post, enjoy the forum! mg |
Elizabeth, you rock Girl!!! Hombre I think you've landed on some great folks to help you on your quest! This thread in particular was made so we as a community can get to that practical experience so many of the posters here are able to supply based on their actual doing of the process. That's golden in my book and does the hobby (bdp would rightly correct me saying lifestyle) up righteously. The "walkers" here you will find have some awesome collective experience. It's not that any always agree but the fact that these guys & gals are able to share beyond quoting someone else or true or false possible "what if" theories. I think this thread has taken on the meaning it was meant to have. My thought is, a forum like what is happening here on Agon has more value than even an audiophile magazine when the community is harnessed and each is able to share at a "doing" level. This doesn't mean that any of us will stick to our, for now, opinions forever. But, what it does is gives real accounts based on real life conditions, both historically and modern innovations. Reading the last three post Elizabeth, bdp24 and sbank wrote, you can just see the experience dripping off their words. To me this is what this is about. As a collective we can do so much more. this is rich! mg |
Hi Kosst Above you see 4 people who have actually owned (myself included) and lived with the types of speakers Hombre is talking about. What, of the group of speakers above, have you owned and worked with so we can count your "experience" in the mix? thanks MG |
Hi Spencer I've owned many of the speakers above, at least one from each camp except for Gale's latest speakers (I'm sure they're great too). On top of the lists above I've owned many other panel type brands. I too have a special place in my ears for Roger West's products. I've owned the A2, A3 and Dynastat and to this day am pulled into a room when Sound Labs are playing. I even did a couple of my CES rooms using the A3. As a note of audiophile history my RoomTune design was developed in a room with Roger's speakers. Other speakers were involved too, but the Sound Lab/Room interface was the actual room out of my 9 listening rooms at the time that hooked me on knowing I needed to design RoomTune. As with all speaker rooms, the speakers and the room are one and can not be separated. The Sound Lab is one of the best examples of this and the rooms I have tuned to Roger's designing have been some of my favorite audio adventures. The Sound Lab even helped me decide on some of my RoomTune TunePak shapes and sizes. That unmistakable tone to Roger's speakers is like no other. The tone is easy to change but that certain hollow halo sound that the Sound Lab can make is unique (in a positive way) and credit to their character. The richness in the body of acoustical instruments is a trait I have stolen from his sound. It's that sound inside of the instrument that Sound Lab does so well. You hear the baffle board or casing of the instrument, then that air inside and then the back or other side of the acoustical instrument, then of course the cushion of air around. Is there a better panel type speaker for this, I don't know but Dr. West nailed it. It's not an automatic trip but tuned it's a slice of heaven. MG |
I don’t want to leave out Maggies and the others either. When I read people trying to criticize the sound of these great speaker designs I shake my head, because for those of us in the know, we have actually lived with the exchange and interaction these have with the room. Once you have not only learned but have created the interaction yourself there’s a knowledge (wisdom) that puts you in a club that goes way beyond "talk". Listening to a Maggie setup incomplete for the skilled Maggie listener is like ringing the dinner bell for us. Why is simple, we’ve been there. Those triggers go off in our heads and our mind’s eye is redesigning the room cause we know "that" sound is there and it’s just a matter of unleashing it on the room’s acoustics. This is the one place I say to Hombre "be careful". If you are just going to throw your speaker into the room you may not get that magic you mentioned earlier. You could very well place a speaker in the room and get that magic or you could just as easily open a can of worms that might take you out of the fun listening game for months or even years. That’s why I asked, if you’ve got perfect consider the risk of moving away from perfect to something that might require some serious adjusting. Again it may not, but I’m glad to see real (active) users jumping in. They could very well save the day for you, as well as talking to the designer themselves. man, what a sport! MG |
Might have been easier for kosst to say "I've never used, tested or owned them" instead of telling a bunch of folks who have what he thinks on a thread that is called "Talk but not Walk", but it does serve as a great example for the OP. Thank you kosst for keeping this OP alive and well! mg |
Here's a little bit of the more (you can do all these tests yourselves). Do your echo tests. Did you know that a first reflection test only works if you are outside in a flat open area with one single wall set up? The size of the wall and frequency played at the wall will show you which frequencies actual reflect and reflect intact. As soon as a second wall is put up (attached to the first wall) the reflection is altered. Add a third wall and you will have the development of pressure zones as opposed to reflections. By the time you have 6 walls the frequencies that will reflect in the room are. Mid to high frequencies in an echoslap and selective high frequencies in a wall reflection pattern. Think about how far you can go, when you get out from underneath these audiophile prescribed myths. Keep in mind that the folks making these myths are folks who themselves are only theorizing. If they haven't gone and done they are doing the same thing that the "talkers" here are. I remember when Harry took his flashlight and came up with the first reflection thing. Cute, but it wasn't real. There's a big difference between drawing drawings and talking theory vs actually doing. mg |
