glupson
This thread leans away from any semi-tangible topic and becomes a playground for challenging opponent’s personality. Somehow, it started being about formal education credentials. How? Why? What does it have to do with anything? It would be better to stick to the matter discussed than to look for the ways to discredit the opponent as a person. Once one’s argument, about why someone else’s argument is weaker than his own, becomes formal education level and not what was said about the topic itself, that one’s argument may seem as being weak and needing help for the way out of defeat.
>>>>This particular argument is simply a discussion about what an engineer is. And to a certain extent whether traffic engineering courses really involve fluid dynamics and rocket science, which most likely they actually don’t. We’re trying to establish who’s fluffing and who’s bluffing. I actually took a course in the Civil Engineering wing at school, Indeterminant Structures. If amg46 took THAT course I will give him credit.
More specifically and germane to the topic at hand I actually apply engineering principles to my hobby, from fluid dynamics to quantum physics to classical physics/mechanics to optics to long distance communications. I employ empirical testing and the scientific method. I have around twenty (count em) new products since 2012. Five of them involve quantum physics/mechanics. As Fats Domino used to sing, I’m walkin’, yes indeed and I’m talkin’....
Besides, we’ve already agreed air is not flowing in the room so linking traffic engineering to fluid dynamics and cars to air molecules is not only tenuous but also irrelevant.
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glupson
It is not as simple as just adjusting traffic lights and building new roads. For example, The Beltway in the Washington DC metro area. No traffic lights to adjust. Road made wider in some places, and still thousands curse it every day. And the narrow part has been narrow for years (at around 270) and the reason is not some lowly traffic engineer. It is not that simple to build a new road. A lot goes into that, too.
>>>>Actually the reasons the Beltway is SO much better than before are because they widened the existing highway, built new highways, built new cloverleafs and offered “pay as you go” high speed open lanes during peaks hours. So, I guess you could say it is as simple as adjusting traffic lights and building new roads after all. 😬 Besides what people curse is Rt 66, not the Beltway.
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theaudiotweak
A storm is spinning up from years past. I can hardly wait..another day or week probably not .Tom
>>>>Whoa! What? Huh?
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glupson
geoffkait,
It is entirely irrelevant to this thread and I am guilty of mentioning it, but "SO much better than before" did not equal "good enough" yesterday around 1:30 pm. So, I guess you could say it is not as simple as adjusting traffic lights and building new roads after all.
Having a formal degree at something may give a headstart to a person at discussing that particular topic, but does not inevitably exclude the other person from being more correct about that same topic regardless of education.
>>>>You get what you pay for. 😁
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prof
geoffkait:
My degree is Aerospace Engineering with mathematics a specialty. I had the most credits ever accumulated for an undergraduate at Virginia. Ever. Now, if he studied dynamic programming as I have then maybe I will say that is real engineering.
geoffkait:
Appeal to Authority alert!
;-)
>>>>Now you’re getting the hang of it. 😁
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I’m not a chance taker. I got my hip waders and raincoat ready.
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Audiophiles should never be content or complacent. Only cows should be content. 🐄 besides how can you be walking when you’re sitting there in the comfort of your Barco Lounger?
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Nothing more?! Wow, wow, wow!! All I can say is 😮
As I said, contented cows. 🐄 🐄 🐄
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I try not to cow tow to you guys too much but I must say I had a feeling someone would chime and state the udderly obvious. I guess we milked that one for all it’s worth. Time to moo on, moopman. hic! 🐄
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The ones selling equipment? That’s pretty cynical and silly. Not even close. It’s the audiophiles who are striving for better sound, who will take great pains to do so. It’s not the ones sitting on their Barco Loungers with a contented expression on their faces. 🙄 Lets salute the ones who will not accept the status quo, who will not go along with the program, the ones who are forced to study and understand what all these tweaks and advanced concepts are all about. Why is there so much ruckus about fuses, about contact enhancers, about lots of things? Is this the flat line club? There is a revolution going on. Hel-loo! Wake up and smell the coffee! ☕️ I’ve seen a lot of knuckleheads in this line of work but you guys might take the cake. 🎂 I’m absolutely amazed folks can be so cavalier, so blasé. So content. 🐄 if you aren’t going crazy over audio these days you must not understand the situation. Maybe schedule a trip to your doctor, have him check for a Pulse.
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roberjerman
"You can tune a piano but you can’t tuna fish" said by some rock band whose name escapes me at this moment (NRBQ?). LOL!
>>>>Was it Hot Tuna? Country Joe and the Fish?
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Did I just see a ghost?
👻
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Sorry, dudes and dudettes, listening to music is not really a hobby. It may be enjoyable and you may do it frequently and you may do it for long periods of time sometimes but it’s not a hobby. Any more than watching Model trains go around the track is a hobby, without building the tracks, painting the train cars, the scenery, town, adding automation, whatever, etc. The audio hobby means rolling up your sleeves and actively seeking good sound, and better sound. Unless you believe audio is a plug-and-play experience. In which case you’re not in the hobby anyway. Or if you wouldn’t be more entertained by better sound. In which case you’re not in the hobby, either. A hobby should be active, interactive. But maybe this a a good definition of hobby for some of you,
“A hobby is something to keep you busy and stop you from getting into mischief.”
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People oft deride audiophiles for turning a somewhat benign hobby into a ritualistic and even a fetish. Look at treating CDs. Folks twenty years ago were put off, should I say repelled, by the ritual some audiophiles, even well known audiophiles like Bob Crump and Clark Johnsen, performed before playing a CD. You know, the sprays, the buffing, coloring the stupid thing, demagnetizing it, even “chipping” the damn thing. Many audiophiles would say, Whoa! Hey, I’m not getting involved in all of that. I’m obsessive enough now. Still others would say, that’s stupid. That can’t really do anything anyway, you change the physical data on the disc. It’s all 1s and 0s. So what’s the point? So, obviously at some point there was a fork in the road, the tweakers, the doers,,went one way and the anti tweakers, the ones who touted the equipment, went another. Now, here it is twenty years down the road and audiophiles still have their rituals. Perhaps even more ritualistic, what with the long burn in periods with some of the new tweaks on the block. 😩
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uberwaltz
Katie
I realise your reading and comprehension skills are a little rusty but....
Yes I said I would be leaving this thread as it serves no purpose for me and I none for the OP.
However I did NOT say that was my last post or just when I would leave .
So, now here is the one you thought you read.
This is my last post on this thread.
Got it?
Keep up the good work.
>>>>I suggest filing that under Whatever.
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Stamp collecting is not a real hobby. It’s mostly intended for invalids, stay indoors types and people who have no real interests. Same with butterfly collecting. The hobby of audio is for active types and people with wide interests in electronics, physical science, physics, chemistry, astronomy, quantum mechanics, metaphysics, poetry and forestry. |
Gosh, that’s interesting. Thanks for your input.
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trelja
@grannyring "06-03-2018 8:39pm@mapman I just realized you have over 15,000 posts! Oh my goodness you deserve the trophy!"
Is that why katie incessantly bullies and stalks him, jealousy?
Yes, I’m the one staliking him. 😀
Honestly, I found the number more than surprising when you posted it. Maybe because mapman’s posts seem rational, well-informed, and kind explains why they never struck me as excessive or overly ubiquitous.
>>>>Yeah, right. You two must be in the same wavelength. 👯♀️
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trollja, I’m filing your post under WHATEVER. Moopman has been yearning for an admirer for like forever. Happy you found each other. Maybe he’ll stop stalking me although I doubt it. |
trollja, oh, I’m GREEN with something. 🤮 In the unfortunate event that emoji doesn’t show up on all computers it’s a vomit emoji. 😀 If I put you two knuckleheads together there might be a whole wit there.
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trelja
It is know that there are many ingredients responsible for “quality” of audio inhalation.
>>>>>Did you forget to exhale?
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trelja
Still, I want to stress the criticality of loudspeaker positioning, if nothing more than to provide a target, and keep in the back of the mind in case one someday has the opportunity to realize it. With that, below is what I consider one of the most important treatises I’ve encountered along my audio journey, a translation of the Dead Points of Live Sound, by A. Polakov.
>>>>>>Fortunately for the sharp eared and earnest audiophile it’s not necessary to understand the logic of The Dead Points of Live Sound in order to determine the absolute best speaker locations for a given room with given acoustic treatments. And you don’t have to repeat the ubiquitous audiophile methodology of move a little, listen a little, which is guaranteed to fail as I will demonstrate. All other methodologies will fail to obtain the absolute best speaker locations.
The only sure fire method guaranteed to determine the absolute best speaker locations is the out of phase track on the XLO Test CD or similar test CD with the out of phase track. The XLO track is self explanatory, I cannot vouch for other test CDs. The objective is to find the speaker locations where the out of pbase track is the MOST DIFFUSE - where the voice on the out of phase track “sounds like it’s coming at you from all around the room with no specific direction.” That is when the sound from the speakers will be the most coherent and have the largest soundstage when the recording is in correct phase. Of course, it should be mentioned that in rooms with minimum acoustic treatments the capability to achieve a VERY DIFFUSE sound might be constrained. As proper acoustic treatments and or devices are applied to the room the XLO Test CD will be more effective, and you will be more able to hear the completely diffuse voice.
The standard audiophile method of moving one speaker at a time and listening or both speakers at a time and listening, then moving them again and listening cannot find the absolute best locations because it’s like trying to solve x simultaneous equations in x + n unknowns.
Many folks believe speakers should be placed widely apart for better soundstage. Or that the speakers should form an equilateral triangle with the listener. Or that speaker locations must be symmetrical. They also often believe speakers must be toed in for better soundstage. Both of those beliefs are not true. The best soundstage and coherence, etc. might actually be where the speakers are relatively close to each other, well, closer than you would think. It all depends. That’s where the XLO Test CD comes in. You don’t have to guess any more. It’s a no brainer. 🧠
If room acoustics devices (e.g., panels, traps, resonators, what have you) are added later the whole process should be repeated since the room dynamics change. But the impression that the voice on the XLO track is coming at you from all around the room will get more and more definite. That corresponds to the absolute best speaker locations.
Now, having said all that, we’re not out of the woods yet. Because as fate would have it many recordings are manufactured out of phase (Polarity). This seems to be especially true for CDs. There are no standards for Polarity. So, MANY IF NOT MOST CDs you play are out of phase (Polarity) and would sound better, all things being equal, if your SYSTEM was out of phase (Polarity).
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Right. Like moopman and gloopson and trollja aren’t trolls. Cut me some slack, Jack! All the lonely trolls and pseudo skeptics, where do they all come from? All the lonely anti audiophiles, where do they all belong? One suspects they just want to be part of something big. You were obviously glued to this thread. There is no joy in Mudville today. 😢
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Ouch! Very ouch! Did you think if that all by yourself, Moops?
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Bingo! Gloopson, you hit the nail on the head. The name trollja is Norse for troll. That’s pretty much a dead give away. Moops is a little more difficult. Moops in Swedish means young child who cries a lot.
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glupson
geoffkait,
I was asking about trolls as you have put me in that category. Unfortunately, I am neither Scandinavian, nor short.
>>>>Yes, it’s puzzling. Have we discovered a new species? Do you live under a bridge? Perhaps under a train trestle. 🚂 Do you live in the tube? Besides, I’m pretty sure glupson is Swedish or Danish. Have you checked Ancestry.com? Try saying glupson five time fast.
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I don’t have to know anything about the person. His own words give him away. Now, you might not perceive yourself as a troll. But you’re a troll, nevertheless. I have this gift, this natural inborn ability to detect trolls. Call it troll-dar. You can trust me.
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Hey, what’s up with all the doom and gloom, fellers? Don’t you remember the little ant?
Next time you’re found
With your chin on the ground
There a lot to be learned
So look around
Just what makes that little old ant
Think he’ll move that rubber tree plant
Anyone knows an ant, can’t
Move a rubber tree plant
But he’s got high hopes
He’s got high hopes
He’s got high apple pie
In the sky hopes
Whoops there goes another rubber tree plant! 🌴🐜
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If he was baiting you he did an excellent job.
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You talk the talk. I stalk the stalk. |
Exactly! I’m proud of you and glad to see you admit it. Finally! Next step, seek help. |
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glupson
jf47t,
Then I hope he does not get offended by my "not so young" comment. Formal education shapes a person, over time, into a different mold. Not
>>>>Knowledge can be defined as what’s left after you subtract out what you forgot from school plus whatever you can glean from Wikipedia in order to appear halfway Intelligent in technical debates.
And remember, only quote facts. 🙄
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glupson
geoffkait,
I agree with your view of Wikipedia usefulness on technical subjects. I may not use it for copy/paste as much to post in threads, but I agree a person can learn a lot there. I should check it again, I have not in months.
>>>>Let’s not get too carried away, glupson. I was being a little bit sarcastic although I realize it’s hard to tell sometimes. |
There does seem to be a pretty big disconnect between the Happy Campers and the Tweakers and Tuners. But one has to ask, how can you guys sit there and honestly say you’re content with CDs that sound thin, wiry, bloated, generic, two dimensional, metallic, like Muzak, synthetic, ugly, screechy, congealed, wooden, electronic, digital, boring, anemic, compressed, airless, discombobulated, sour, amusical, pedestrian and like papier-mâché?
Enjoy the music! |
Mitch, I’ll be the judge of that. You’ll pardon me for saying so but you should probably get your ears candled pronto. 🕯
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Take a Valium, Moops. Feel better. I don’t care if you’re not a real engineer. Really. Gloops and Moops. Hey, that rhymes! I’m a poet and don’t know it.
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glupson
geoffkait "...how can you guys sit there and honestly say you’re content with CDs that sound..."
Some people will and do agree with you on description of the CD sound. Maybe not all CDs and not all the words you used, but in that direction. At least part of the answer is that, despite admitting all those annoying shortcomings, they have no other option but to enjoy the way it is or stop enjoying altogether. They are content because improvement is not feasible under reasonable terms for them. The more I read about descriptions of tuning and tweaking, the more I am sure it, at this stage, cannot be something too many people would or could go for. It is time and effort expenditure that may outweigh potential benefit in the sound improvement. Many CDs really sound crappy, we all have a bunch of them, I am sure, but most people have no interest in playing with equipment on an hourly basis just to extract one more Hertz from it. It detracts from other things, including actually listening to that same CD. And that is even without opening the topic if all those tweaks. tunings really make a difference for which everyone has her/his own ideas.
Gee, you don’t say? 🙄
I’m pretty sure that’s the talkers’ position. Excellent summary!
Enjoy the music
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I can certainly understand why you would express a preference for cows over humans and groundhogs.
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12 Angry Men quotes
Juror #2: It’s hard to put into words. I just think he’s guilty. I thought it was obvious from the word, ’Go’. Nobody proved otherwise.
Juror #8: Nobody has to prove otherwise. The burden of proof is on the prosecution. The defendant doesn’t even have to open his mouth. That’s in the Constitution.
Juror #8: It’s always difficult to keep personal prejudice out of a thing like this. And wherever you run into it, prejudice always obscures the truth.
Juror #3: That business before when that tall guy, what’s-his-name, was trying to bait me? That doesn’t prove anything. I’m a pretty excitable person. I mean, where does he come off calling me a public avenger, sadist and everything? Anyone in his right mind would blow his stack. He was just trying to bait me.
Juror #4: He did an excellent job.
Juror #8: I just want to talk.
Juror #7: What’s there to talk about?
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mitch2
@geoffkait
"you should probably get your ears candled pronto."
Thanks for the concern but my ears are fine. Get some rest, clean the heads on that Walkman, and don’t go on any river boat trips with your buddy Martin.
>>>>Huh? My buddy Martin? Are you referring to Martin Short? Martin Scorsese? Marty McFly? Or did you mean my Martian buddy? Oh, I get it. Martin Sheen. OK, that’s not too bad.
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Gosh, you ask good questions. I don’t have an opinion one way or the other. It’s a quote from the movie. I know there used to be a song, Devil in a Blue Dress. Could that be a clue? Hmmmmm..... |
kosst_amojan
All this crazy stuff Mike’s done, and absolutely no evidence at all it does anything except make for excellent fire and shock hazards. The hazards part is the thing I’m surprised everybody ignores.
Well, let’s see, how many fires 🔥 were there in the US last year? A bunch, right? I’m going out on a limb and say one million house fires. How many of those fires 🔥 were caused by audiophiles who were Tuning? Zero. So, the risk of fires 🔥 associated with Tuning actually appears to be ridiculously low. No wonder everyone ignores Chicken Little. 🐥
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glupson
To be honest, I am still trying to figure out where "talking" ends and "walking" starts. Not to mention what is wrong with "talking".
Oh, brother! Now, you’ve really got me thinking, is this guy pretending to be a little slow or what? It’s a good act. I can’t tell. I just did a Google search of Talker and would you believe it, there was a picture of glupson?
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glupson
geoffkait: How many of those fires 🔥 were caused by audiophiles who were Tuning? Zero.
Where did you get that data?
>>>>It’s an educated guess. Prove me wrong. Betcha can’t. It’s the same silly argument pseudo skeptics use for fuses, that audiophile fuses cause fires. Give me a break.
The data for the number of fires in the US is readily available on line for those who let their fingers do the walking. 🖐 Oops, there’s that word again.
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Typical talker jibber jabber, argumentative til he turns blue. Were you a blue baby? Even if you could prove that some Tuners had fires, which you can’t, you would be unable to prove it was the Tuning that caused them. What’s next, Tuning causes cancer? That’s always a popular argument among talkers and pseudo skeptics. You can’t prove that it doesn’t.
Was Baudelaire a talker? I bet he was. What he was was a spitting image of Poe. |
