Hi kosst It's nice to see you make a post on this thread that doesn't get flagged for breaking forum rules, like most of yours have. My suggestion to you concerning your question is, if you feel owning a stereo is walking in the hobby that's fine. However there's a huge hobby out there to begin exploring and it never ends for those of us who do choose to walk vs those who are still working on their own comprehension skills. That's not meant to be mean but it is meant to qualify something that is pretty basic as listeners mature in the tuning of their systems. Since I was last here on this thread there has been easily over 50 members from this forum exploring their systems through Tuning/Tweaking that I have worked with personally, and I'm sure many more who have explored on their own through reading this thread and deciding to get more involved in the hobby's many variables. Michael Green http://tuneland.forumotion.com/ |
Hi Elizabeth That's a great example of walking, and a great door opener to other variables. For me, I see people doing this every day (tuning/tweaking) and the ones who have taken their first few steps into the variables you can see their views of the hobby change. The folks who have been doing it for a while, it's like they are in a completely different hobby. There usually comes a time where Tunees make their systems more and more variable. It's like you just said "for your own needs". There's no limits only desire, and there's no right or wrong only taste. Thanks for making your post! I think those kinds of comments are important to help readers understand. michael green |
Yes, I will most certainly flag your post kosst. I recommend that anyone who sees clear abuse of others, be it me or anyone else should be flagged and removed. If you were on TuneLand you would get a warning to be civil like what is expected of any grown person. If you continued you would be banned, which I have a feeling you have been banned before. Secondly, if you feel the mods are not doing their job, step up to the plate and start your own forum, and set your own rules. Continuingly pouting about you not being able to spread discord is an odd look for a hobby about enjoying music. Thirdly, I don’t see the hobby of being an audiophile shrinking at all. What we do see shrinking is your particular part of the hobby. You can go about casting doubt on tweaks all you wish but the reality is listeners are and have been "doing" the hobby and exploring every part great or small in an effort to make their system sound the way they want since the beginning of this great hobby. Why that would make you so angry is the mystery here. Like I have said, you probably respond the way you do because that is the type of person you are. As well others happy about the hobby tend to share the joys of tuning their system in. As others here have said many times over and continue to invite you to join in, we (the hobby) welcome your positive contributions and those of anyone who has actually done and have something to share based on the doing. Michael Green |
Kosst Can I ask you a question, are you an underwriter? I didn’t think so, because if you were you could have every part you use in your playing around with audio gear tested to see if it has a UL code or rating. It’s not hard to do. The reason why I haven’t responded to your allegations up till now is because I would hope that you would have studied a little more and in time be able to move beyond making uninformed statements. To start with, I do not sell power cords. I sell power cord kits. No different from you or anyone else walking into Home Depot and purchasing raw parts and taking them home to make something. I believe you said you built an amp once. Did you get that amp UL approved? Of course you didn’t. Any one of the parts inside of your amp could malfunction at any time and start a fire. I don’t see folks here throwing temper tantrums like you do about your tinkering. Did you know that when anyone makes an electrical tweak to their electronics it voids the underwriting of that product? No, I didn’t think you did. You see Kosst your the perfect example of a talker. Someone who speaks without proper knowledge on a topic. If you look back at my product page you will see that I list 4 types of Bare Essence wire. You will also find that there is a UL on every part. In fact there isn’t a part I use anywhere that has to do with electricity that doesn’t have a UL. Again it’s not that hard to look up a gauge or rating to see what to use with what. Let me give you another example. Take a simple low grade long extension cord and hook it up to a heavy duty piece of equipment and run it hard. That cord may heat up. Is Kosst camping outside of Walmart protesting? Of course not, no one is there to watch him pump up his chest who would give a rats (A). Kosst, do a little walking and then come back. All the uberwaltz-s in the world aren’t going to make you look any more knowledgeable. You either know because you have actually studied a topic or you don’t. Trying to say I’m doing something wrong doesn’t really hold much weight, except to those who like you live here to get attention. Some of you folks spend way too much time on these forums and in time they become your only reality. Trust me it shows. You end up showing people you aren’t really in the hobby of advanced listening at all, and you attempt to make the hobby look less important than it is to true music enthusiast. You have lost your way in mediocrity, and instead of congratulating each other when they have done something cool and fun you show your misery and negativity. You know, no matter how much you moan & groan your only appealing to other moaners & groaners. That’s your choice of course to try to make it look like those of us who are actually doing the hobby and enjoying it, and are happy to share it, aren’t for real some how. Your making the hobby fade with every word and you can’t even see it, till it’s gone that is. Michael Green |
Hi kosst Thanks for the question. The BEStrip-Type 3 is usually the one chosen for preamps. That's an effective gauge of 17. The BEStrip-Type 4 usually amps is effective gauge 16. If you want to step up to the 20 gauge the Type 3 is effective 15 and Type 4 effective 14 gauge. You work your way up from there. The BEStrip-Type1 at 20 gauge is for light pulls like small effects units and simple sources like the Maggie player I use. The rails inside are typical thin copper plates. The BEStrip-Type 1 was tested on full size amps with no fatigue on the line (sounded great) but I don't recommend amps with this. Right around Type 3 is pretty nice. I also do a Type-5 at 15 effective gauge which sound pretty nice. Monster amps should really go direct to wall (no strip if possible). And I try to have them around 14 and into the wall at 14 gauge Romex, nice sound. Many codes stay at 12 gauge Romex though. It really comes down to how your doing the house, outlets and what components. The component internal wiring is, as you know, a big deal. So I try to make a plan to keep all things balanced. Metal conduits can really screw with the formulas so you have to stay informed. Some homes for example have conduits as code and others Romex straight is fine. But there is a formula for every system and one can sound great with one set of components and then another set goes in and it's terrible, but it has nothing to do with the components as such, it's a mismatch. Anyway I hope this clarifies a little. Michael Green |
Hi Inna I absolutely do not fit in here and honestly am not trying to. When I come to HEA sites there is something that happens that you can't see from these pages, hundreds of emails, PMs and calls. I'm here for the onlookers and those who have been RoomTune and MGA clients in the past wanting to hook up again after years of me being away from the mainstream. What you see me talking about comes from the members who contact me directly, most of them disappointed in these types of forums even though they would love to be apart. When I first showed up a couple, maybe few, months ago I started receiving maybe 5 emails a week which quickly grew to over 50. You'll notice that I left for a while. Now I'm back for 1 or 2 days and then I'll be gone again. If I'm going to hang out somewhere on a long term scale it won't be here. It was important for me to spend time on the Stereophile forum (got very weird there) then on this forum and a few others mostly audiophile, music and pro. Good Tuner? LOL. Inna the people who know I tune don't hang out here. Audiogon and forums like it basically run in cycles. That's not my crowd. I was going to do a thread that I did start here on tuning but after seeing the amount of trolling it would be a waste of my time. I realize that as well do the members who have made contact with me. In other words I don't see folks who post here as people to convert to something that has already been growing on it's own with just a few appearances here from me. Believe it or not the trolling of me has been a great success as far as converting and listeners beginning or continuing to tune. So my friend I might be amateur, but the tide is turning more than you think. I'm good with that. I learned a big lesson while at Stereophile and that is mingling with those who live on these forums is not my gig, nor should it be my goal. Inna, I tune all day long that's what I do and is what I have always done. Peddling my worth here is nothing more than saying hello to those looking to tune. Of course I don't fit in here, but it's a great place to meet folks who are fed up with the way HEA has turned out. Again not on these pages but those looking from a distance. I hope that doesn't disappoint, just being honest as I always will be. Michael Green |
I should also add that the only way to really figure it all out is to do it and work your way through because there are so many things that can get screwy. Things like new or old powerlines and transformers outside the house. In the air or in the ground. And what position you are in the immediate grid. For example if you are at the end, middle or first in the chain. Trust me when I come here I debate in my thinking how far I should go into the process because there may be one guy who doesn’t believe the outside transformers make a difference as well as the entire pathway. And then you have the next guy who wants the inner wall studs voiced, that the wire will be running through (I’m doing a house like that right now). The electrical transformer, panel, line and amp are all really one component. That component is then put inside of a house with electrical wires surrounding the system (fields). The house is one big electrical component, really cool stuff when you think about it. And it explains why the exact same component will sound different in each electrical environment. And that's besides acoustical and mechanical. I love this stuff. To me it’s a great big active physical puzzle that we get to play with. Michael Green http://www.michaelgreenaudio.net/ |
Thank you folks! Your last few posts make it easier for me to respond. "the big picture" The big picture is not about Michael Green, the big picture is about making your system into a tool. What I do is break it down to 3 very basic areas of tuning. Electrical, Mechanical and Acoustical (The Audio Trilogy). TuneLand (my home) is made up of a few spaces. One the Website, two The Forum, three The physical space TuneLand, four Facebook and five the Tunees and Their Systems. Any or all of you are welcome to be a part of what we call the "Tune". Tuning includes all the variables of audio. "Variable" is the key word because everything in audio affects everything else in audio. It's all one big giant musical instrument. How any of you or I describe tuning has value. Once you get past all the personalities, egos and talk we all have one thing in common, us & our systems. What I do or say on Audiogon has one goal, point you to the variables and give you some Tuning options for you to consider. Are they the only Tuning option? LOL Lord I hope not that would get boring and doing the hobby of listening is anything but boring. On Audiogon, if I stick around, you'll see me come and go, there's no avoiding that. And like I did in partially answering the power cord question, I'm happy to answer any tuning question that I have the time to, either here or on the other medium I use. Please keep in mind though, I don't live here nor am I going to or have time to. I have limited time to devote to some of the sidetracks here and there's nothing I can do about that. I'm learning how to be apart of the conversations outside of the Tune, but sometimes fail miserably being pulled into meaningless and mindless trolling sidetracks that I have no business getting into, but I'm learning as I go. Some here have accused me of being one way or another, that's all good I guess, but I don't see myself as someone who wants to get off track too often, so if I come off rude it's only a matter of me prioritizing. I do apologize if I come off offensive to anyone I talk to here, it's just that I don't have the desire or time to be a true audio forum lifer. As soon as I leave here today for example, I have a stack of Tuning biz to get to. Thanks for being patient and remember this thread isn't going anywhere and I will get to things I think I can contribute to when I can. But a lot of the other stuff doesn't interest me as much, so you will see me maybe make a couple comments but then I move on. Michael Green |
Hi Tomcy6 you said "Hi Michael, Would you please have a couple of the clients, or walkers, to use your term, that you connected with here post their experiences with you and tuning? Preferably someone who has some history on Audiogon, like being a member for more than one day, or having posted something here before, or having bought or sold something here." Tomcy6 There actually have been some who have posted, even on this thread, but like myself I don’t picture a lot of Tunees as fitting in here as posters. They’re more than happy to help someone learn about Tuning but I would be surprised to see them get involved in some of the other sidetrack-ish stuff here. I think they feel comfortable contacting me or each other but draw their line at what they call "waste of time posting" here. I would describe Tunees as people who have moved past trying to prove something, and more just having fun doing and learning. tomcy6 "How much do your services cost? Will you sleep on my couch or do I have to put you up at a nice hotel? How long will it take for me to be able to walk on my own? What if you take apart my components and I don’t like the results? Answers to these questions would be really helpful for anyone considering your services. Could we please get some clear, straight answers about what you are offering here and at least some ballpark figures for the cost?" mg That’s actually kind of funny because it’s pretty accurate. I’ve been on audio call since I was a teenager and have slept in almost every possible place you can imagine. Before any of this audiophile business venturing I was on tour in music non-stop full time. There have been times in my life where I have had several homes at one time in different parts of the world. How much do my services cost? Depends on the types of jobs. On TuneLand it’s free because if I do something that is public it ends up being good promo. My consulting pricing ranges from per drawing, per hour, per project or retainer. Most audiophile clients go with retainer or free. You can get the amounts from me directly if you want. Will you sleep on my couch or do I have to put you up at a nice hotel? As I said earlier I’ve done all of the above, but I personally don’t like to travel anymore. Depending on what part of the world you live in we might have a Tunable Room for you to visit though. And thank God for the internet and modern communication. How long will it take for me to be able to walk on my own? I have two answers here. If your talking Tuning the MG way there’s a basic step by step program of sorts where you can jump on board at any speed you want. It’s an individual thing. I have some guys who have jumped into tuning like they were born to tune and others who have one foot in the HEA and the other in Tuning. A good analogy would be musical instruments owning, playing and mastering. It all comes down to your own desire to go as far as you want. What if you take apart my components and I don’t like the results? LOL, another funny question. I actually have had quite a number who have got me involved in that process personally. Those projects end up being lifetime journeys for both me and the listener, most who end up being very good friends or even family. Mostly people explore by doing themselves with me as a guide or another Tunee as a guide. TuneLand really comes in handy with this. The, you don’t like the results, is a question I’ve never been in on more than encouraging or helping someone get to "their" sound. It’s not "MG’s" sound my clients go after. I have a "method of tuning" but it’s more about you becoming the master of your own method. Could we please get some clear, straight answers about what you are offering here and at least some ballpark figures for the cost? Absolutely most certainly. I have already started a thread here on "the method of tuning" which someday I may be able to get rolling in a meaningful way. But, as you can see on this thread getting to that meaningful way may or may work out with this particular forums personality. It’s much easier to do on a forum like TuneLand where the people are already in the exploring state of mind. Here? That remains to be seen. thanks for the questions Michael Green |
Kosst says "Perspective.... I feel like it's been totally lost. Folks who don't even know what kind of resistors their amp has are debating the most nuanced characteristics of a piece of wire or a block of wood. I don't understand that. Which one is really the more meaningful "walk"?" (that was a good post btw) My answer is "all of them". When TAS wrote "I witnessed the revolutions first volley" they were talking about my statement "everything affects everything else". It was the beginning of not a new chapter but the next chapter that included every part of The Audio Trilogy. to the whole gang If you would, keep in mind I have no part in your debates here. I'm not a part of any camp you guys have drawn the line in the sand over. That's your ballgame and yours alone. My ballgame is "everything affects everything else". That's why you don't see me in those threads that asks what is the most important part of a system. And if I ever was you would read me saying "every part is a part of every other part". Those are the types of questions that get asked in the beginning of our hobby not the more advanced part. The simple truth is, as we walk more we learn there is a lot more walking we can do. We can choose to not go as far as someone else, but we can't "know" until we walk. Michael Green http://www.michaelgreenaudio.net/ |
Analogluvr you said " I questioned the veracity of Elizabeth’s claim that she can hear the difference between different electrical receptacles." Actually Elizabeth is correct. Even back in the late 70’s we would wire studios a certain way with certain outlets to benefit the sound. It was and is a meticulous science (art really). Knowing what to listen for is key and you are saying "you can’t hear the difference" is what I would be more concerned about, If I were to compare Elizabeth’s account vs yours in this matter. When you guys call "snake oil" you do understand that you are calling almost every serious recording venture from the 50’s through the 90’s a hoax? I guess you can even call recording of the digital age hoax as well, but in the earlier recording years especially there was all kinds of sonic tweaks going on that were pretty creative. I can't say everyone out there doing tweaks is legit, but what I can say when I read a lot of guys throwing out their "snake oil" card, they're really throwing out their "get out of jail free" card cause they have never done a true exploration of their audio chain past plug & play. Michael Green |
Hi Cleeds "It took me a while to understand that when users here bleat "snake oil," they are usually saying, "I don’t understand how this works." When they cry "fraud," they typically mean, "I’m too inexperienced or lazy to figure it out." Yep, it's obvious (entertaining to a point) to folks reading as well. mg |
kosst "But.... instead of modifying the power supply to be more indifferent to the characteristics of your own mains power, we’re here talking about running mains power through undersized wire gauges? I can’t possibly be the only one who sees the inverted logic of that reasoning." I’m glad you made the post you did. It was helpful to see where you are at in the hobby. If you look at most amp designs today they operate much cooler than what you are describing your amp runs. You should look into this to see if your designing is up to par. If I was running my amp as hot as yours I wouldn’t want to have you using my wire either, or anyone’s wire. Last night I put my hand on every amplifier I have on at my place and I didn’t feel anything that was any more than warm, certainly not how you are describing your amp as a fire hazard. In fact all the amps I use have very low transformer heat output, I could easily keep my hand touching them all night. Kosst, you started off your post "I’m no electrical engineer, but do I really need to point out the obvious?" That to me is what is fairly obvious, you are no engineer. That’s not me being mean that’s me being obvious. Have you ever designed an amplifier from scratch kosst? Maybe you could find a designer to work with you until you are able to make a product that is not a fire hazard. At that point you could explore wire sizes and how they actually work. Michael Green |
Kosst I hope you are ok with me taking the time to answer your posts today. I have a couple of questions for you as well. Do you know what makes a wire get hot? Do you know why most codes in the US specify using 12 gauge (solid core) wiring through their houses? Do you know why 24-20 gauge is the most common gauge for hookup wire? Do you know why manufacturers choose PVC, Teflon and other materials as jackets on wires? Have you ever done a heat testing on wires yourself? To be as clear as I can what makes you think obvious when you have stated you have never been an EE, have you ever studied EE before? You know saying someone has been selling fire hazards when there has never been even one case of this in over 40 years with anything I have ever been a part of is not only a joke, but makes you look like what you claim to be, an untrained inexperienced hobbyist who hasn’t figured out how to make an amplifier, yet, that runs cool. At least the Audiogon forum is entertaining if nothing else, when folks come up to show off their knowledge or personal experiences. But when it’s time to put reality to the test there needs to be walking to go with the talking for folks to feel confident enough to engage. The most important question I have for you Kosst is "are you a pawn or someone who can step up their game of experience past creating fire traps yourself"? I’ve already done my UL course, why don’t you give it a try? Put a little walking with that talking, it gets boring hitting the Abuse button on the flagging option. step up bro, be happy to converse with you in the real world mg
ps I love this thread |
uber I wasn't even here when most of Kosst's post were deleted, however when some of your members bring to my attention that some guy is saying I should be jailed for murder, I think maybe just maybe I or someone should boot them to the curb. You wishing to support people like that is totally up to you. And if you wish to take it up with the mods directly that is up to you as well. I don't keep what I do here or anywhere else secret, that's for little children on 1st grade playgrounds. I think some of you guys get so used to creating BS you start to float in it, thinking it is normal behavior and expecting others to play by the same rules. But I think that type of behavior usually takes place as you and others become forum lifers loosing your objectivity and even identity. mg |
Hi Inna The wood I have voiced up for people's turntables the last couple of years are.. Redwood (3 varieties) Cherry, Western Red Cedar, Poplar, Brazilian Pine, Beech, Birch, Walnut, Basswood, Purple Heart, Maple, African Rosewood, Bubinga...and I know I'm forgetting a few. I posted it somewhere on TuneLand. On speakers there are several main parts for my use. Front baffle board, sides top bottom, rear panel, tuning bars, plates (like tweeter plates), divide (for floorstanders), seams and speaker baskets (frames). I've used some rosewoods, but you have to be careful not to let the notes shift up or get phase-y and some woods do this easier than others, especially when you get over 1/4" thick. You can layer woods but that gets tricky too. Moving to the desert in 2004 changed my designing drastically, for the better. There are some of the best dry houses in the world here. A dry house is better than a kiln. We also do all of our own veneering here, which gives me a lot more control. Being able to make your own layers with skins and pulp or hardwood has been a dream come true. You can pretty much ask me to create a sound you've wanted but have been missing and I can now do it. Pretty cool! There are some reviews coming out on the new Revs soon so that's exciting. Michael Green http://www.michaelgreenaudio.net/ |
Elizabeth I love it! That’s living!
Tom lol, now that sounds desperate lol.
mg |
I don't know guys, I think it's pretty impressive when a 70 year old out hears a 43 year old. Tom LOL, hey anyway my coattails can help you brother have at it. mg |
Hi Glupson For me it depends on the tone of the board, so that means different types of harvesting for different types of wood, but it's all pretty standard with Low Tone Wood. Where it gets tricky is the more dense wood. When I started grading wood I broke it down in 3 ways, tone, pitch and mass. Tone I use different levels Xtreme Low Tone, Low Tone, Medium Tone, High Tone. Pitch comes next. You almost have to be with me the first couple times testing pitch. Mass is size, density, cut of wood (part of tree) and shape. There are a few ways to judge a board and there are a couple ways boards are setup when you go to look at them. The first thing I do when going through bunks or stacks is pull the board out from the stack and watch it breathe. If it's a Low Tone I'll be able to see what is going on as soon as I get the board on it's own. Medium Tone and High Tone I have to buy samples and bring them to my drying room. To make the answer shorter the answer is yes seasons do matter, but I pick wood all year round. I'm more concerned about how it cures more than time of year. I do have my own curing schedule though. About 30% of the wood I buy makes it to an end product. The rest gets used for pulp I use for making my own dope. Some gets scrapped but not much. Michael Green |
"The F5 is a juiced up Pass design. To be specific, it's a fully complementary. push-pull, 2 stage, FET based amplifier running in full class A idling at 1.42 amp at 32V. The heatsinks are at about 56c idling. It's what class A amps do, especially home brew amps." Honestly kosst, I kind of doubt Joe Smoe would ever remotely be interested in your self proclaimed risk taking fire hazard, do you? I also think Joe Smoe is smart enough to ask me which products to buy, everyone else does. But for the sake of your peace of mind and effort to save the whales would you prefer me to put a picture up on my website showing one of the bigger gauge strips? I would be willing to do that just for your personal peace of mind. Would that make you feel better sir? Michael Green |
Hi Inna So that’s why you were asking about the Rosewood. That would help me a lot if I were to make a speaker custom for you, for example. For clients like that, I usually send them a speaker to get use to and then work on referencing their sound. I have some folks who nail their sound right off the bat and others that take some time. It’s a lot of fun for me doing custom. It’s also a lot of fun for me being the only HEA tunable speaker designer, up till now. I think we've created a nice little family of clients who all add to the mix. Some are even instrument builders themselves. Michael Green |
Hi Inna "Wood is something that is sort of alive" Interesting you say that because that’s part of our speech when we give tours. "wood never dies" "everything matters, including how it is dried. Maybe Michael will elaborate." I have learned so much about curing and voicing I could fill a book and then some. After listening my number two function in life is probably sanding and rubbing and flipping wood. Voicing a piece of wood into a musical instrument is a life long passion, and every time it happens it’s like giving birth to a new creation. I had a listener here last fall testing out some of my top boards to see which one he liked the best. While he was here I did up a board for him to listen to using instrument finish. I also did up a board using my own body oil. He was blown away by the one I made with my oil in the mix. My curing space is 650sq feet and all I do in there is cure wood. People are surprised when I give them a demo. I do three types of curing on every board, Sun, Shade and indoor curing. Let me give an example. You guys would think that a piece of redwood sitting in las vegas would get pretty dry right? Well when I bring this wood home from the yard I make it 1/3 the weight bought at the yard. And that’s wood sitting in the desert before I get it. When I’m done doing my method of drying the wood is light as a feather. Michael
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Hi Glupson "Thanks for that short description about wood. It does seem like a tedious work with lots of trial and error. I am sure with some experience the error part gets smaller, but still. To get to that experience, lots of wood must have gone to dumpster or wherever else." You know how people say "they do" something? Well there’s a big difference between making a flash attempt and living inside of an art, any art. From the other side of the fence (past plug & play) there is so much potential for playing our systems the average hobbyist has no idea until they start there own Tuning journey. I don't just preach it, I live it. I do two things in this hobby. One is try to find that perfect sound for everyone through creating and methodizing it. The other is do my best to share that there is more if someone wants it. These forums are very weird for me, as you have gathered. It’s weird because I am somewhere between a full service Acoustical, Mechanical and Electrical inventor and an extreme listener myself. I don’t like the way the hobby is marketed, I believe and encourage DIY as much as I do push my own designing, I believe in the whole and not just a small part and I enjoy watching people move from "Fixed" to "Variable". I don’t just say "everything affects everything else" I have done it every day of my life, literally. LOL do you know what my work is? Music. Done you know what my hobby is? Music. Do you know what I do with my spare time? Music. Do I have a life outside of music? Nope! I also believe everyone here is the master of their own system and they can start and stop anywhere they want, but someone has to get their hands in the saw dust, or find the right pitch on the metal cnc speed. Someone has to listen to every inch of every room and come up with a way to voice that room. Someone has to take apart those components to see how they tick, and then build them back up mechanically efficient and variable. Someone has to know this audio thing inside and out. And most important, someone has to build and create a method of tuning that allows us to play every recording any way we want. Glupson, you criticize me for my writing. Maybe your right maybe I’m a terrible communicator. Others get hung up on whatever they do, nothing I can do about that, it’s the nature of public forums. I’m not here to join a club or change who I am or hide behind a username or keyboard. I’m simply here to turn people on to Tuning. I hope this thread never goes away and I also hope readers can be encourage to take that next step, cause it’s out there waiting for them. I hope someday we get past the talking and share the walking. We’ve covered 33 pages of personalities, but walking doesn’t have to be walking in a continuum circle. Walking in this hobby could actually turn out to be walking forward, not in a circle, not backward and not sidetracks. That’s the only reason you see Tunees stopping by but not staying. Maybe someday this thread will step up to the plate, who knows. Michael Green |
Hi Inna, you said "I read about some people in Swiss Alps, near the border with Italy, who make great violins. One of them at particular time of the year chooses the day and a few spruce trees to fell. He selects those trees, who knows how, but he doesn't want to be wrong." As HEA continues to evolve it's going to give way to "Premier Audio" (the more creative side of the hobby). It's the difference between Dollars & Sense. High End Audio is about money whereas Premier Audio is about position of importance. The more premier part of the audiophile hobby is about Tuning, exactly like a musical instrument. A finely designed and tunable system will out perform a big dollar system any day of the week. Wood and other materials are of course the major contributors of the greatest music in the world, history has proven this, so have I and others like me. Shun Mook is another very good example of this. There are a few companies that understand the development and tuning of resonances instead of killing them and that's the next chapter for the extreme listener. The hobby got way off balance and built themselves into a corner (I'm talking about high end), but during this time the R&D by some of us have moved closer to the musical instrument in our designs and thinking. Tune the energy as opposed to distorting it. Tuning is the opposite of distortion, that's important for the hobby to get itself around. Once it does hold on for the ride of your listening lives.
"The idea of writing a book, Michael, is I think a good one."
The book is in the making, but I am a very lazy writer. I'm more about pushing the hobby in the correct direction (musical instruments) then I am an editor. The newer reviews coming out on Tuning need to find the ears of folks first and then the promoting will follow. One other thing that makes me lazy is, it's hard to get me out of the listening chair or working on other's systems. Making or watching a tunable system come together for someone is like a transformation for them. What they thought was important fades pretty fast after a couple tuning steps. It's even made some people angry after spending so much money (High End) to find that they didn't need to. That's a head spin for anyone who had bought into the expensive product scam. And that's what it comes down to, a method is more valuable then expensive gear worshipping. The hobby is getting close to the realization and when it finally does happen HEA as we knew it will be archived. Let me just add this too. Sometimes things have to die before the next chapter can start. High End Audio hit a wall in the mid 90's and it has taken this long (and continues to) for the money chasing part of this hobby to die. The hobby instead of going after the next logical step was more concerned about cashing in. All of us saw it happen but the magazines were so convincing that the hobbyist had to spend all their money on the HEA revolving sales door, that the audio closets grew till the hobbyist couldn't cram any more failed components in. The hobbyist went in a very weird direction and it became obvious for a lot of guys who didn't bite on the spending that something was up. All we have to do is ask folks here who stopped buying new after the mid 90's or even before and we would find that expensive audio went off on it's own glory trip, but only a few really followed. Anyway I could go on and will if asked, but the next audiophile movement (that actually started many years ago) will be more for the listener then the collector. Michael Green http://www.michaelgreenaudio.net/ |
Hi Glupson "In a sense, it does not give you any free time, but it is still a job. Kind of, working after hours thinking you are having fun while you are actually perfecting what you do for money." I've always been an odd bird when it comes to money. I put fun way before money. Money is a drain on the soul and I don't buy into the American way of capitalism. When people live for money they become a slave to it, many times become selfish and dishonest. I don't live that way, come good or bad. Glupson, there's a big difference between working and doing ones calling. If tuning was work I wouldn't do it. Even putting a negative spin on it by calling it working for money makes me squirm. it's called life my friend and everyone lives it their own way Michael Green |
Hi Inna, btw it's nice talking to you. Not sure we've ever conversed before but this is nice. "Michael, what are your preferences in music ? I suspect that you listen to a wide variety of different kinds but still ." Yep, my listening covers a pretty wide range. I'm a genre floater. I get lost in whatever project or tune I'm working on, a chameleon. I've always been in the entertainment business or my family was and I tagged along, when I was very small, so I never went through the particular music type thing. My cousin is Doc Watson, my aunt and uncle had a private jet company for entertainers, so I grew up around musicians and actors. When I was old enough to go on tour I took advantage of it and soaked up many different types of music and cultures. Mick Ronson and Robert Shaw had big influences on me. And I spent time working on guitars at Guitar Works when they would let me. I didn't play so my work was limited to voicing the bodies. Over the years I would get turned on to a lot of stuff because of music camps and different things I did in the business. Don't think I ever really met a music I didn't like. If you visit my facebook you'll see almost a daily account of what I'm listening to, short version. Oh and I was the acoustician for UMI which taught me a lot about the making of instruments too. "And another question is about source components. Do you use Studer, Ampex, something else with master tape dubs, Simon Yorke, Walker, Technics etc. turntable ? I mean your reference not whatever else you might have to listen to for your clients." Wow, that's a question for another book lol. Can you tell I'm trying to shortcut my answers? This kind of goes back to me being in entertainment. I am and always have been an audio sponge. I've probably done almost every job in the biz. I also collected a lot of sources from back to the Victrola days. Lets put it this way, I've own 5 stereo stores, 6 if you count TuneLand. I think I owned them for as much my own collecting fever as well as turning people on. For example while in Atlanta I had 2 stores, ran sound for In-touch TV show, ran tapes for Turner Broadcasting and ran sound for the Atlanta Symphony as well as the Jazz concert series. On top of that I was doing background vocals and Guitar Works. Makes my head spin now lol. When you tape run you usually over time use about everything on the market. 2" for my 16 or 32, 1" for my 8 track, 1/2" 4 track, 1/4" full 2 4 and 8 track, cassette 2 and 4 track. Turntables, I think at the height I had 27 up and running at one time. Files, still just getting started. I cheat by getting feedback from one of my reviewer buddies and a couple clients. Now for the shocker and I hope your sitting down. My reference source is a $29.00 Magnavox, models range, but based on the MDV100. I have 21 of them, and counting. Everything that comes in here gets put up against the Maggie. I don't like to beatup on products but the digital era screwed up bigtime when it comes to CDPs. I can rant about that if your interested. Sources are typically so over built that tuning this small, beautifully designed DVD Player frankly beats the snot out of any other source I use or bring in to tweak for others. If it wasn't so believe me I wouldn't be crazy enough to make that statement, but we have brought in almost everything possible and the results are the same. Michael Green |
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Hi Inna "You don't want to scare your clients off with a true reference sound, you want them to have a better sound than you do." Well not really. It would be easier to show you if you and I ever tune together. My reference systems don't have chassis. They sit in tuning devices so that I am able to get directly to the audio signal. I bring in components on a regular basis but to compete with my reference there's a lot of tuning that would need to be done. Let me give an example and then I won't pick on any other products so folks don't get mad. Last year when getting ready for AXPONA we brought in several reference digital front ends to choose the one to take. After a long search we chose B......i, but it didn't even come close to the Maggie Mod, not even close. So we took a Maggie and watched the jaws drop. We have pictures of folks shaking their heads in disbelief. One magazine even described it as a car CDP cause they never saw anything like it. The Get Tuned Show Kids had a lot of fun. Since that show several folks have had me either do up a Maggie for them or I helped them tune the Magnavox they would get. It's only that one design though. The rest of them sound like cheap CDPs like one would expect. Of course the unit must be tuned to sound that way but that's what I do. Michael Green http://tuneland.forumotion.com/t332-tuning-cdp-s http://tuneland.forumotion.com/t146-tuning-the-magnavox-dvd-player |
Thanks for asking for further explanation Tom. The MTD comes in several different configurations. The AAB1x1 is the cone I designed as the upgrade to the AudioPoint, it's a solid cone as well but when you go to the site you can see the shape difference. As Tom pointed out and has been explained several times on the forum here, Brent (AMD) was the original designer of the cone Starsound uses and the cone I first distributed as some of you recall Michael Green's Audiopoint. Before the Audiopoint I used German Acoustic Cones. The Audiopoint I felt was a much better transfer cone for my rack designs, The ClampRak and JustaRak. These Audio Racks and the BasicRak all came with bottom cones which I designed with Brent. As I started dealing with custom products such as the cones for Klipsch and other different thread sizes and configurations I started to notice a shift in pitch that the original Audiopoint made that was becoming apparent and fatiguing in certain applications. This is when I started slowing reconfiguring the product line, moving the production to Pennsylvania for the specialty points. In fact some of the review samples of the Audiopoints were from the Pennsylvania location not AMD. In time we decided to move on from the original design and started making the MTD. Part of this decision was so I could monitor the production and refine the product. We got our own CNC and moved forward. From that moment on the MTD took on it's own life. In time I designed the Sonic Bell and MTD round tip. I never returned to the disk used for the Audiopoint to rest in. This was a flawed design from the beginning. Different woods actually became a much better step between the point and surface. I recommend when people use brass cones that they use wood on top and bottom. It's been impressive to watch all the cones and feet develop. I've also seen a lot of creative DIY cones out there. The ones that interest me the most are the brass/wood combos. The MTD Sonic Bell The Sonic Bell is another cool cone that is pretty versatile. Took me forever the get the bell the way I wanted but once I heard it I knew I landed on something special. Tom talks about me not knowing my product, but neither he nor Robert were around when the development of the Audiopoint and MTD were conceived and refined. The cones were designed 8 or so years before Robert was even on the scene. I understand all product makers need to have their feeling of pride, and in HEA their mystical story that only they understand, but these stories mean very little to me except when I am on TuneLand. You explain something here and your going to have 200 folks debating for their amateur hour award. If Tom and Robert were sincere in their approaching me it then could be worth something but I doubt that will ever happen. So be it. In the past 15 years or so I've been moving much more toward the sound of wood and the ability of wood to respond to vibratory response. Tom talks about wood going out of tune, actually brass goes out of pitch much faster than most woods. Brass is also more sensitive to temperature change and humidity change. Wood moves with conditions, metals change pitch. Lets say you have your component off over night or even playing at a lower volume. You come in and turn the volume up. Obviously the cone reacts to the vibration and heat change. It doesn't take much to change the pitch of that cone, whereas wood responds to nature because it is nature. Trees live their whole lives keeping with the timing of nature. hope this explains a little more Michael Green |
No Tom here's how you do that. Hey Mike I have some ideas that differ from yours (I think) and I'd like to get together and discuss them. Maybe even while we're listening to some music together and kicking back. Tom, I've been nice to you and Robert on this thread and I'm going to be nice right now and tell you, your agenda here is not working unless your agenda has been to sell MGA Cones for me. Are you not aware that your clients are placing orders with me to compare the old Audiopoint design against the new one (MGA Cones). Every time you guys come up here it's like a free ad for Michael Green Audio. Folks who remember Michael Green's Audiopoints are ordering from me again. Many didn't know where I went or heard stories from somewhere in Audiopoint land. Well that only lasts until they put the old Audiopoint up against the MGA MTD (mechanical transfer device). Hey, we love the excitement and getting to make contact with old friends, but I wonder and they have said, is it smart for Starsound to send customers to Michael Green Audio? If your cool with it thanks but Audiogon readers are different from Audiogon posters. I know you think your being effective and by all means keep it up if you want. Michael Green http://www.michaelgreenaudio.net/cones-and-spikes |
Hi Inna I looked at the video, I wouldn’t be interested in that, nor would the Tunees but thanks for sharing. That sound would drive me right up the wall lol. I hope that wasn’t insulting to you or them, it’s just that their approach is 180 degrees from tuning. I get invited to listen to over built products all the time and all of them have that closed in sound. Once you go open sound it’s really hard to go back to that box. Michael Green |
Hi Inna Thanks for the info! |
You know at this "point" I really don’t mind Bobby’s and Tom’s rants, because like the posters are "pointing" out this is great free advertising for Michael Green Audio’s Cones and Michael Green Audio as a whole and Tuning in general. Thank you readers! Also thank you Audiogon for keeping such a close eye on the posts that go over the top. I also am glad I presented this OP the way I did cause all of us can enjoy the OP play out in real time. Elizabeth said "If it’s a BATTLE.. I’ll throw in my footers, and compare them to any...Butyl rubber size 10 chemical bottle stoppers.
I use them everywhere. I must have a hundred of the suckers. Best part is they cost $1.25each. What got me started with them glass shelves. All my rack have thin tempered glass for shelves. The bottle stoppers are the perfect match to go with glass shelves.
(You ask why glass shelves Jeesh. Well it was all I had...)" my response Come right on in!!! I don’t think anyone should be excluded from the fun of "Walking" this hobby. You know how many footer type products are out there now? It’s staggering to think how the market grew after Steve came out with his Tip Toe. I don’t know if you guys remember, but back in the day when I came out with my RoomTune Racks, Cones, Cable Grounds and of course RoomTune there were (still are) a few very innovative companies who knew the future and developed a way to bring these products to the public. The Cable Company is one, Audio Advisor, I think later Music Direct and a few others that were key in making accessories part of the big picture. I had a client here today and after listening a while he said "what do you think about the internet?" We talked about how everything HEA changed after the internet came along, in a positive way. This thread and Audiogon forum is a great example, and I think it will only get better as time goes on. As the listener continues to progress Tuning will become the biggest part of the hobby. The words "Tuning" and "Playing" are the most important action words in all of music. To play with any accuracy you must Tune. Stereophile in one of it’s categories calls the art of acoustics "Room Tuning". They don’t call it Room Dampening or Room Diffusing they call it "Room Tuning". All of these debates and product showdowns and folks trying to flex their theory muscles is interesting but say the words "Tuning" or "Playing" your system and the world of music from a practical sense is now in business. That’s pretty darn cool. So I say again come one come all, Lets Walk! Lets do some Tuning! Michael Green http://www.michaelgreenaudio.net/
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Hi Glupson Thanks for your recent questions. "I get the temperature part, but am surprised by humidity statement. How can brass be more affected by humidity than wood?" I think that the audio industry (hobbyist included) would do themselves a favor taking a course that explains and has lab work on the Fundamental Forces. It’s a lot easier to learn the long versions of this stuff rather than discussing the short versions on audio forums when so many are trying to one up each other. I also think I shouldn’t have pushed the wrong button when I went to post my longer answer a few moments ago LOL Oh well, my post was about the history of my discoveries of when I started to hear problems with the Audiopoint and what my process was in my own evolution of designing the cone and other important tools. I can get back to that version anytime but here’s a shorter one, sorry. About a year into my distributing of the Audiopoint is when I first started to be bugged by certain problems. Once I started hearing it I began to think Yikes, this isn’t good but no one was complaining so the panic didn’t set in (yet). I’m like that with my audio. Once I hear it, and hear it repeated, it becomes that thorn in my listening side. This is what brought me to ditching HEA chassis designs and a host of audio product designs. HEA products for the most part are way over built and very cramped. Setting a big transformer down inside of a metal box is crazy, yet a whole segment of this industry did it. When you set that big field creator down inside of a box of chargeable parts your making a landmine of problems. While dealing with what I was hearing with the Audiopoint I found a few interesting facts. One the cone is directional, two the cone is a conduit for fields and three the cone was very reactive to environment conditions. Later my friends from Conn and King instruments were like Duh where have you been lol. "I can imagine some oxidation taking place and changing properties, although I would expect that to be a relatively slow process." Glupson take your thought there a step further. Materials are what? Programable. Metals do what? Attract fields, reject fields, reflect fields, pass fields’ info and be charged by fields. Listen to your system when it is very dry, then, compare it to the sound when it’s raining outside. It’s not just the humidity but the....charge in the environment that changes. "Wood, on the other hand, swells and what not, when exposed to the water/humidity and effects I have seen so far can appear overnight, if not sooner." Same with metal. "Is there a secret in wood processing. painting, or something else, that makes wood less susceptible to humidity exposure than brass?" I don’t think it’s a matter of less or more but a matter of what happens to your sound. If you take the time and carefully listen to your system you will hear it go through four main listening cycles every day. You as an object go through these same cycles. You as an object with a brain and live body....you get what I mean. listening is a moving target not a fixed snapshot. the guys who come up and say their system always sound the same, need to take up golf or something else other than audiophile listening cause there’s not a truthful guy on the planet who has not been a part of system change, and the continuum of sound. It’s not a fixed quantity from us as humans or our systems sitting on a revolving planet in a moving system. It’s just kind of goofy trying to sort through half baked theories. Fun as it might be for some, stretching their egos to the max trying to gain a following, there’s talk and then there’s walk. And walk is motion. Michael Green |
Hi Glupson Lol, you cracked me up with the swelling thing a little. I pictured all the guys here on the thread sitting outside in the rain listening and discussing the topic. If you have time and a translation available to you, look at some of the audiophile forums from the far east. Metal and rubber corrosion is a major problem with audio products there. An audio system really isn’t that far away from musical instruments as far as what affects what. Stereos go in and out of tune just like any other music producing item that carries an audio signal. I don’t look at the swelling of any instrument as a thing you want much of. As you mentioned early all of us can hear the cycles of listening change throughout the day. Some of this is us, some the system and some the continuum of time itself. How fast or slow something goes out of tune is relevant to the situation and the materials working, or not working, together as a whole. The other thing sort of funny on this and other threads is how the posters dramatize things to prove points that really have nothing to do with listening to music at all. Like your bomb in the backyard thing or folks saying things with spins here to make their points, when all of this really comes down to common sense stuff. One that I kind of brought up earlier was this whole squeeze parts into a metal box and claim it will out perform something not in a box. These are basic designing flaws in the HEA paradigm that will sooner or latter catch up with the over build guys and kick them in the can big time, already been happening for about 15 years now even more. You know there are a lot of listeners out there who have felt ripped off by HEA after they experience simpler and more thought out designs. This is one of the reasons why you don’t see me getting upset on here. I’ve already done what they have yet to do, and as more people do and leave the HEA paradigm, then their friends in time follow suit and before you know it a whole gang of listeners leave the community of HEA brands. I’ve got a system combo that will be going over to Malaysia soon that is a complete Tunable audio system. It includes everything. All you do is set it up and Tune it in. It cost less than one HEA component and blows the doors off of every big HEA system we have brought in in the last 4 years or beta tested at other places. And here’s the cool part, you can set this system up, put on a recording, if you like it great, if not, make a couple simple adjustments (similar to tuning a guitar) and your all set. This is the direction of the serious listener. Same thing with all these guys getting their room correction products. The hobby is actually getting sophisticated and before long in room listening will be bigger then it ever was. Check out the speakers I have coming out in 2019. They’re RoomTune Speakers. I have two markets I’m focused on. One is the combo setup I’m talking about and the other is the RoomTune system. The RoomTune system is a lifestyle speaker system that uses the room as the speaker. It’s a speaker system designed to work with Digital Room Correction systems. I know lol the self promotion police will be up to flame me shortly lol! While they’re doing that listen to what I’m really saying. HEA has reached their crossroads, and it’s a good thing. We live in a different world than we did 25 years ago. Old school HEA is wonderful, especially 1995 and back. Then there’s the discrete HEA era 1995-2015. The discrete audio era lost ground, but during that time audio innovation overall advanced and advanced to the point where a room correction system now usually out performs your big buck systems. It doesn’t out perform the tuning purist but makes slaughter of these "One Fixed Sound" systems. Right now your seeing folks trying to correct their HEA systems with these processors, with fairly good results for the most part. For these systems though you still have some room and component problems, basically because many of the speaker designs out there are built to fight the room not work with it. That’s going to change and probably fairly soon and to a much bigger market. Michael Green |
Hi Stereo5 Yes, I am RoomTune! The 90's were a blast weren't they! And yes we still make and sell the RoomTune http://www.michaelgreenaudio.net/roomtune In the later 90's after the HEA market seemed pretty saturated with RoomTune and the Audiophile mom & pop stores went out of business I for the most part traded in my CES badge for my NAMM badge. That's the short version, but I've always been around just not as visible. Michael Green |
Thanks for the question about my involvement with Audiogon, but I’m pretty sure this has been covered before, maybe a few times. I will try to find more of the shows Audiogon covered for and with us and reissue them on TuneLand. Here’s one of them. _________________________________________________________ "Greetings and welcome to the 2005 CES show coverage from the Vegas Towers,
No one puts out show coverage pictures like the people at Audiogon. I’d like to personally thank Steven Clay and Albert Porter for their excellent pictures and visit. What is it I always say? A picture is worth a thousand words and here are the ones that Audiogon has displaying on their site for you to view. After this article, please visit Audiogon.com and take a look at the 2005 CES coverage.
Audiogon is a true equal opportunity company that I have had great pleasure in getting to know over the past year. They not only do great show pictures, but they also help expose companies to the mainstream hobbyists. No matter what your view is on high end audio, you will find a piece of it on Audiogon.
Let?s get right into the show coverage at Vegas Towers: " _______________________________________________________ I probably have cut and paste this particular show to the recent TuneLand somewhere, however I don’t know how long Agon host their archives. I know we did ads and programs with Agon for a long time and got a great response. If and when the time comes I'm sure we can do it again but it probably won't be until after the forum trolling is gone. As folks read TuneLand you can see the type of community we are and if we did any ads it would be with those who have similar Vibe. No doubt the Mods here have the right feel, but the forum still is looked at 50/50. I know we're doing promotion with TONEAudio to help introduce our friends at AUDOLICI and we pop up here and there to say hi on "enjoy the music" and other places, but todays marketing is a lot different from the old paradigm and changing every day. For right now though just being here has introduced us back to a few hundred RoomTune and MGA followers and family. It's been interesting, for example Kosst negative comments have sold Picasso & Bare Essence interconnects and speaker wire for us, and Audiopoint rants has allowed quite a number of people to reconnect with us. We also have listeners ordering MGA Tuning Blocks, Speakers and RoomTune just from this thread alone. So if the sales do go into the hundreds of orders here I would think we will try some ads here again. In the meantime and as the trolling decreases here I will probably do a free banner for Agon on our website. It will go here http://www.michaelgreenaudio.net/contact-information Michael Green |
Hi Readers I apologize for my former employee’s business partner. I have no clue why both he and Bobby are doing what they are here and with so much venom. As has been covered and now repeated for the how many times, Robert of Starsound worked for me for 9 months 20 some years ago and now distributes a line of cones I once got noticed as I introduced the Audiopoint to HEA. I know boring right? The MTD replaced the Audiopoint and life goes on and so on · and so forth · and so on and so forth · and the rest · and/or the like · and/or suchlike · and/or more of the same · and/or similar things. lol But But it is kind of cool that Michael Green Audio and/or RoomTune has been at the HEA Shows every year since 1989-present. That is pretty cool isn’t it! The fact that other designers and stores have trusted the designs for that long. Kinda neat. Thank you Tom for "just asking". And thank you for all the advertising your doing for me. Michael Green PS: holy smokes 34,000 views on this thread so far! |
Hi Tom You only do direct sales correct, you have no dealers right? If we went direct only we would publish the pricing on the main site as well obviously. As it is when someone inquires we fire them off pricelists. Why, did you need to purchase something? lol I'm pretty open to selling any way that works best. That's why they have edit programs for websites. Direct only is kind of a two edged sword. There's a part of me that wants to see the mom & pop stereo store come back. That era was wonderful for the consumer. But a store that has to compete against direct sales on the same product, that's a hard pill to shallow for me still. I'm sorry if that bugs some, but isn't that hope in you readers as well? Wouldn't it, by some miracle, be the coolest thing if stores were able to be that local hang out again? I don't know, I think there's a time you've got to stop with the greed and negativity and get back to the fun that made this all happen. I'm thrilled to death when a new person or someone from the past gets ahold of me and wants some of my goodies. I don't pretend to be the best business person, I don't even want to be the best business person, I just enjoy the ride and love it when someone else wants to come along. I like making people deals and mostly sharing music and our lives in music together. All this other stuff to me is just egos. Michael Green |
Hi Glupson Did you mean to say "over built"? Do a browse on some of the smaller amplifier builds and kits, they're all around. An easy example would be Parts Express. http://www.parts-express.com/cat/audio-amplifier-boards-modules/3464?N=21147+4294967118&Ne=10166&No=0&Nrpp=16&Nrs=collection%28%29%2Frecord%5Bendeca%3Amatches%28.%2C%22P_PortalID%22%2C%221%22%29+and+endeca%3Amatches%28.%2C%22P_Searchable%22%2C%221%22%29%5D&PortalID=1 There's probably 20 sites like this throughout the world gaining more amplifier design credibility every day, both solid state and tubes. The Audiophile world (not HEA necessarily) is changing rapidly and at such a pace that HEA audiophiles are dropping out of the more expensive scene almost at the plinking of an eye. Now you can buy up and down the money scale anything you want, as far as amps & preamps go, sound wise. It's getting to the point where you can either pay for the chassis & some mystery theories or buy stripped down versions (that sound better) for hundreds, even less. Super low mass components and speakers are walking away with the hobby. It's not even up for debate anymore, it's simply a matter of watching it take place. Yep, there is a little debate on the HEA forums but these forums are changing almost overnight. The question listeners are now asking themselves is "why own complicated components and speakers"? It's truly not 25 years ago. There's no need to build complicated crossovers, and no need for complicated amplifiers, and certainly a bad idea to build over built, complicated, digital. The overbuilt complicated market is falling over the cliff as we speak. Glupson, you think we are seeing threads on the HEA dying, give it a couple more years when you'll read "what the heck happened". How many 40year olds are interested in huge space heaters for amps? I don't see but a few hands raised do you? This last AXPONA I talked to a few of my friends who are amp and speaker builders. How many products did you sell? 2, 3 maybe 5 if they are lying. Compare this to the 90's when you had salesfolks sitting at the table with the guy or gal taking orders with a couple people waiting in line to place theirs. That's not an opinion that's a fact. After the anger ends of people trying to desperately hang onto something that is fading we're going to come out on the other side with some great sounding systems, very much like so many people from the early 90's back do. The new components are not going to be big, there's no need for big anymore. I tell folks to look inside of the Sherwood 4105 and the brand X HEA product. No comparison as far as proper real estate goes. I mentioned this too, and I'll ask you. Why after all these years do HEA speakers require such complex crossovers? It's because there are that many problems in the design that needs corrected. Michael Green |
Hi Mitch2 As well there are many folks doing the opposite. I have a question for you. When you tried the small amp did you also try compatible speakers and other items, or did you just do a plug & play swap out? I don't know about anyone else but when I do a component change so drastic as the one mentioned by Mitch I also do a system match up to at least the level I did with my original system. One thing I have noticed with these smaller amps is they don't like complicated crossovers or many other things that we use with our past setups. That goes for wire and the whole boat. I'm seeing far more listeners going simple with better results then the other way around, by a big margin too. If those are looking to do this experiment be sure to let your amp burn in for a few months, especially with "D" amps. You would think this little thing will break in in no time but that's not the case from what I have been hearing. Michael Green |
Hi Inna That's a good point that sometimes I assume people already know about me, so I'm glad you brought that up, thanks. Counting up the amplifiers that I own right now and have here with me is 22 amps. If you count the audio closet I have access to there are around 200 amplifiers. I'm definitely not shy for equipment. It's funny that kosst the other day was trying to make comments about Class A amplifiers when I was not only a dealer for Nelson, toured with his amps on the trade show road, but have also tuned up maybe 30 of his amps in systems. I've probably owned 20 or so Class A amps myself, but it's more interesting to watch some of these guys ramble on not aware there are audiogon readers who know me rolling their eyes at them.LOL The Agon Mods have been great, the private emails from members have been great, the folks ordering have been wonderful, it's been fun talking to you and others, so I'm a happy camper. And the fact that the negative folks plan backfired is a hoot. I even took off most of the day today to spend time with Audiogon members. pretty cool Michael Green |
Well there certainly are a lot of flagged posts, not only on this thread but many others on the forum. I wish I could take credit for being the inappropriate post police, but I wouldn't have time to do what I do. Saying that, I strongly believe that angry trolls should be banned from audio sites, period. Here is the OP again. _______________________________________________________ Hi Guys This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience? I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why? You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen? I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it? thanks, be polite ______________________________________________________ I don't think it can be more clear than this. Plus on this thread the trolls have flagged themselves, and that's good news because the mods don't have far to look :) As for the rest of us, there's the holiday weekend to enjoy! Great music great friends and of course great food. Michael Green |
Hi Mitch I appreciate your comment, however while writing this my focus was on the second half of the sentence "but it is important to on lookers' The on lookers are who have contacted me privately and who deserve an audio forum of integrity, truthfulness and free of trolls and fakers. The on lookers are also who inspired me to write the OP. The fact is Mitch, no matter how I wrote this thread's OP the trolls were going to come up to do what they do, tearing down the very fiber of this great hobby. The OP has been sliced and diced to death and I believe brings out the true intent of the ones posting on this thread. That's what the OP was meant to do, and what it has done successfully. Michael Green |
I don’t know kosst, it seems to me that as most say "the guys who shout snake oil are the guys who have never done" is true. I don’t know if the mods are going to delete you again or not. I would think that after a while it would be easier to get rid of some of you guys, but that’s their choice of course. Here’s a quote from the last page "Aren’t you the inventor of Room Tunes? I remember back in the 90’s, almost every Stereophile review mentioned your invention." kosst, if your saying I haven’t been apart of testing, you might want to talk to the writers during my career before trolling me. If anything I think the magazines would have said there was a "Michael Green" over kill in the 90’s. It also seems weird to me that your still stuck on a sentence in the OP that has been covered ad nauseam. Shouldn’t you have been able to make your point 36 pages ago? You can read up about me as much as any designer in HEA, even way before the internet. So, making your comments about me fit in one of 4 camps I would say. Your ignorant, your rather naïve, your inexperienced or your starved for attention and you think this forum is easy pickens. I don’t really care which it is except anyone can look in the archives of HEA and see who I am, and your afraid to use your name when you write here. I know you want to pick some sort of fight with me, others who don’t know their trade do the same. I know that you don’t understand the OP even though it’s been explained or demonstrated hundreds of times over by now. "theoretical understanding" kosst says Now there’s an oxymoron :) . You do realize that Theoretical means "concerned with or involving the theory of a subject or area of study rather than its practical application". Your talking pretty loud there my friend, but there’s little proof of you walking, past making an amp kit. I made my first amp kit when I was what 10. And it never got so hot I had to turn if off every couple of minutes, unless I wanted to fry some scrambled eggs. try to relax a little, enjoy the hobby. I'm scared of snakes and oil is something I have my mechanic take care of Michael Green |
Well Tom we have steaks on the grill, should I be cutting with or against the grain. Let us know when you get up to, oh lets see, 40 or more threads just about wood and then we can chat. I say this because there are probably a few thousand guys who may one day read this that actually are using wood saying "this Tom guy is certainly talking a lot without walking". Nice to have TuneLand where the practical application is put into practice every minute of every day. have a great holiday Bro! Michael Green hope everyone had a great weekend! |
Or Tom & Kosst, I can warm up more of today's food and have a snack while looking at how desperate your posts have become. _______________________________________________________ Vol.15 No.3 Guy Lemcoe Stereophile "I suddenly felt privy to the musical experience to a degree beyond any I'd experienced before. I became an intimate part of the soundstage---no longer an observer, but a participant in the experience! Minute performance details became unambiguous, lessening the interpretive burden. A result of this was that I became a more relaxed listener." ________________________________________________________ These were fun times. I hope the on lookers don't buy into the trolling happening by Kosst, Tom and others. The hobby is so much better than this. Most of us spend our days smiling. What's there to be negative about when there's so much music to be explored and enjoyed. I don't want to flood the pages with coverage about me and RoomTune and the setups I did for the reviewers, more than to say, it was a ton of fun and I'm glad I had the chance to hang out with so many cool listeners. I believe in HEA the reviews, comments and mentions would be around 1989-1998 if you want to look them up or get copies. As far as these guys who are so angry, it's hard to understand why. Michael Green http://www.michaelgreenaudio.net/
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This thread's OP says what it says. "why fake it?". The answers to this are spread throughout this forum. MG |
Hi Mitch This thread is about talking without really walking, and the question, why fake it if you haven't really done it. I find the thread I pointed to as doing exactly that. I don't fault the OP or the participants. I simply ask, why do people in this hobby do the talking about things that they haven't truly explored, and then act as though they have experience? All of life is an us and them, until we actually "do". There is no good or bad in it, just talking vs walking.
mg |
