Talk but not walk?

prof said

"Have you ever considered that this is because tie wraps are irrelevant to the performance of caps?"

prof, why would I use a part without researching it? Prof, it’s my job to not only consider but to test. Also many of the producers of these types of products are happy to exchange info, like folks doing field testing for them.

Can I ask you a simple question so we can see if we can get on the same page somewhat?

How would you describe the difference in sound between the Vishay 1813 (yellow) and the ERO 1822? 3.3 of course.

Hi Kosst

I'm sorry, were you talking about these speakers?

https://www.michaelgreenaudio.net/tunable-speakers

So I'm listening to Michael Franks "The Art Of Tea" what are you playing? Since you asked about my speakers I'm playing the Rev6 Signatures & Rev SW-15 Combo. And by golly they do sound pretty smooth around 6KHz. You know how I can tell? Because the splashing of the cymbals have that immediate attack but then there's that ultra smooth cymbal float that covers the room. I'd be happy to describe the soundstage to you.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Hi Glupson

"When it comes to Michael Green’s speakers"

Thanks for your comments. Having the website and TuneLand has been a wonderful way to get to know listeners and the sounds they may be wanting to go after. I'm not sure ads, shows and reviews have quite the same impact as they once did, ads and reviews for sure. Word of mouth from owners have been a big part of my speaker biz. The reviews were nice and a welcome starting point, but since those days, recommendations from owners has been the biggest seller for me.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

"I gave the website a quick once over and I did not find it particularly informative though the unified focus on "tuning" is unique. Needs some work IMHO."

Hi mapman, when you went to the site did you also visit the forum? I don’t want the site to get too crowded but I also don’t want to have it too vague. 2 years ago we started to redo sections and are thinking about doing some unique stuff. I’m glad the theme came through for you which is the main thing. I want people to be able to see that tuning happens start to finish. It was also important to build up the forums (started in 2004), that’s the proof in the pudding. Seeing short write ups and pics is cool but actually seeing the listeners doing the tune is the key, and that’s what the forum does.

thanks for taking the time to look and to give your opinion

This last year couple of years we have had a renaissance in tuning and making something relatable is very important to me. It takes a lot of effort to get something like audio tuning documented, and the Tunees have done a fantastic job of sharing their systems with us. It's been an intense and thorough labor of love, but every day I see more work that needs to be done.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Hi Glupson

I spend a lot of time thinking about the words I want to use at times and other times they just kind of fall out like they were meant to be, like RoomTune. SAM and Laminar Flow were two that came with a little more effort. What helped me with Laminar flow was a visit to the space shuttle lab. The particular things they were asking me about was demoed by a display of Laminar flow over a huge surface. The connection was enough for me to use the term comfortably.

Because I have been the starter of some of these things in HEA I try to come up with names that one stick, and two have a tie to the actual event.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Hi Bill333, this is a very good post!

"@prof 

"bill333 can you give us a non-mystical, technical explanation for how removing the chassis top of a component would cause those audible differences (or releasing of the capacitor)?"

I have no technical explanations for this, and no interest in finding any. There may be people out there who enjoy observing scientifically unexplained phenomena and constructing theories to fit them, but that's not the hobby I'm engaged in. I'm trying to create great music listening experiences. Simply put, I don't see how having a well explained system is going to give me better sound. OTOH, if you have practical ideas on how to get better sound from my system, I'd be glad to hear them...

"(BTW, I’ve had the top off some of my equipment before - pre-amps etc - for different reasons and...no...it did not change the sound)."

There could be any number of factors involved in your not hearing a change in sound. Without being there to hear for myself, and subsequent experimenting with your system and room, I really can't say what happened. The most likely explanation is that some component or components in your system are closed down to the point that upstream changes can't easily be heard.

But let's get to the point of your post. You're not here to help people get better sound. Having read through your posts on this thread, I can't find a single instance of you doing or saying anything that would help another person improve their system. You're here to cast aspersions on anyone whose methods who don't fit into your mental model of how things work. Let me be clear in saying that my experiences are my own, and are posted here in the hope that others can benefit from them. These are things that have worked for me. If you, or anyone reading this, tries these methods and benefits from them, I am genuinely happy about that. If you choose not to try, that's ok too. But I have no interest in trying to fit my experiences into your dogmatic belief system."

_____________________________________________________

This is very true and very powerful. It's how I felt about Prof saying he needed to be convinced that things sound different. Prof that's not on anyone but you. I found out this stuff about caps in particular when I was in my early teens. I found out because I did it and watched others do the same thing. Maybe there's a mental need for some to go through the exercises they do, but "walking" is about the actual doing and applying the doing. Some of you guys who are spinning here are never going to enter the hobby that some of us are talking and doing. That's the point of this OP. If you choose not to hear the difference or can only understand it by looking at a chart or screen that's one hobby (and very legit) but that's a different hobby. When you guys start shouting (and most of the time with anger) VooDoo that really only tells the listening world that you haven't reached the level of empirical testing.

BTW the Tunees who have been up here so far are EEs, Doctors, Musicians, Reviewers and heavy duty listening explorers. I don't think any of us would put down another's path to successful listening. I can say this because we believe in the variables of the hobby. Again it's like the OP is saying, there are those that walk and others that talk. The ones that walk are more than happy to help those through the first few steps into the bigger world of tuning the variables, but when someone can't hear the difference between caps, and questions that there is a difference it kind of spoils the desire to jump in to the mental state with them.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

"For those who don't think that metal cases can't be detrimental to the sound, there's a very old audio site called Mother of Tone that believes one should build amps and DACs on blocks of wood. This is nothing new.

And, +1 for @bill333 

All the best,
Nonoise"

_______________________________________

BINGO and hundreds of other designers! thank you Nonoise

Hi Prof

"How would you describe the difference in sound between the Vishay 1813 (yellow) and the ERO 1822? 3.3 of course."

"I wouldn’t describe the sonic difference between those two caps, as I do not presume, without hearing more reason to think so, that they would sound different. (Not that I couldn’t be convinced they could produce sonic differences)"

Thank you for your answer.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Btw folks someone mentioned Fresh Aire on another thread, and I’ve been wanting a Mannheim Steamroller Fest ever since. So, I’ve got them lined up in my listening room, so excited! It’s been quite a while. Man were there some great electronica recordings during that era.

Oh shoot Kosst, too late :)

http://www.michaelgreenaudio.com/thetunebroadband/index-4.html

I think that was of 2004, but I can call them if you would like. Now that I look at it maybe older. The picture looks like around 1989. I think that was a thing MTV did for closing credits on a show I did with them. Wow was I young. Then I think we copied it for an old site. Those were fun times. That was when I was going from pro to HEA. I think I was standing in one of my stereo stores.

pretty cool ha Kosst

Why are you so uptight about me anyway?

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Hi Guys, the OP again

This isn’t meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?

I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I’ve seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?

You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It’s not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don’t we see this happen?

I’m not asking for peoples credentials, and I’m not asking to be trolled, I’m simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I’m also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we’ve all heard it been there done it. What I’m asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?

thanks, be polite

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

_____________________________________________________________

take care Audiogon, thanks again for letting me visit, it was fun seeing the Tunees

Hi Prof, sorry I didn’t read your post. But I did want to say that in the last two days I have received emails from 3 of the members here who took the tops of their components and said they heard a difference. Opps!

I look forward to having fun with them as they get involved with walking the tune.

Also, I hope that folks can see I have a lot of fun in this business as I have my whole life in music. It was quite the upbringing. And to you prof, I hope you can calm down in time and take in some of the fun we as Tunees have to share. Man my friend I have been in and out of so many studios, listening rooms and test labs that it’s time to relax and enjoy all the experiences. If you do come to Vegas sometime let me know and maybe we can do diner. No need for you guys to get all worked up on here with me. I’ve been doing music so long I’ve seen every type of personality you can imagine.

It’s like lighten up and relax a little. You don’t have to be the hobby’s prosecutor, it’s a used audio forum, not anything so pressing. I tune, so what? Guys are trying (walking) and seeing for themselves. It’s about fun man. Trying to paint me as a bad guy doesn’t move the needle buddy, I’m already known.

You and Kosst and a couple of others have missed the MG execution by some 40 plus years, if there was one. I mean come on man, chill. Let others enjoying tuning if they want.

You were right about one thing Prof "people are watching" so take it easy. This is nothing for you to be so mad about.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Hi jf47t

good to see you buddy!

Hi Jafant, good to see you. Every time you say the website hasn't been updated for years I wonder if your looking at an archived site :)

Both TuneLand and the website got a major facelift last year. Anyway thanks, it's always good to see you. We should become facebook friends where I do several posts during the week.

https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1764861045

take care

Michael

I love Jesus!

If Jesus was doing snake oil, count me in all day long and twice on Sunday.

Here’s maybe where you are having a problem amg. You think I’m arguing. My friend I’m simply "doing". Amg, you have a steak in front of you, how do you know it will taste good? You taste it. Are you going to measure it somehow to tell you how it is going to taste? Nope. Amg audio is something you do. No one can make you do it, we can only tell you if or if not we liked the steak. We can come over to your table and cut it up in bite sizes but making you enjoy it, that's up to you.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Hi jf47t & prof, can I jump in.

It was fun indeed tonight!

Not doing the hobby and faking it.

Not doing the hobby is when someone speaks as if they have some knowledge on something yet they personally have never done it.

Faking it is the same thing. They will make comments about a subject and yet have never really explored it.

Back to the capacitor thing for a moment. The reason I asked you if you knew the difference between those two caps is so I could see how experienced you were with the sonic differences between audio pieces. Prof some people swear they can’t hear the differences between caps. That to me is a disqualifier for me to want to talk to them about the sound differences. Same goes for the ties snipped from the caps. That’s one of the things I did today to get jf47t response to.

So again back to the caps, I snipped the ties and Jay heard the difference and was able to describe it pretty right on. Now lets say someone said that’s impossible. That would tell me one of 3 things which I think the tunees have already stated. One the system has blockage and isn’t able to let through the changes. Two, the ties were never snipped and the person is just "faking" their answer. Or 3 they are unable to hear the change. Fact is, the change did take place and Jay and others here who have gone and done this experiment while this thread was going on heard the difference and reported it to me. I’ve taken my time responding to you because I wanted to heard from folks who actually "Did" the experiment.

So here’s where the walk and talk comes in. The guys who are walking on that particular topic are the ones who took the time to engage in the activity themselves. There were 6 guys 1 gal who were reading this and actually snipped the ties on both the caps and wires and took the time to report to me their findings, all heard a difference. Some of them have decided to take further steps in tuning. Where the talk would come in is all these posts on this thread meant to derail or be a distraction. I would call all those with the intent to derail, troll or just old farts needing attention "fakes". They were fakes on this thread and no doubt being fakes on other threads. These are the guys who are here to only hear themselves talk and or to start trouble. The people who are "doing" on this and other forums are people who often talk about music, are open minded and who can call out a lonely person or internet troll. Nothing wrong with being lonely, but trying to derail something good by painting a picture of bad is "fake" and done by those who don’t do the hobby usually.

Now prof I understand you came on this thread to try to make it look like I was being negative, but I was being real and still am. If someone doesn’t like this including you, no need to post on this thread other than saying once you don’t get it or agree with it. But when you say I’m being evasive over and over it shows signs of trolling and stalking. Or as you said Dog & Bone. If I’m only doing this to bait you with a bone you’ve fallen for it again, and will respond as such. But prof my mission here was to point out the difference between people who try stuff and people who talk and act as if they do try stuff. I’ve covered this topic forward and backward, up side down and right side up, left to right and back to front. I’ve even provided a real time "doing" field trip. It’s up to the reader to decide if I meant any kind of harm by suggesting that folks not give up on trying simple tuning tips and if folks hadn’t tried so hard to troll by now we would have been into all kinds of tuning tips for people to try. And I’m sure folks like Geoff and others would have added to the list. Sometimes prof it’s smarter to let the grass grow a little before cutting it. You got so intent on schooling me that you became angry when I didn’t want to respond the way you wanted it to go. Sometimes prof you have to let the stew cook slow and not be in such a hurry.

For me this is a successful thread because listeners are "doing". I hope years from now they will keep on doing. All the other stuff my friend was just talk.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Hi Grannyring, good to see you!

Michael

Ok amg lets do it your way. What do you use RTA or FFT?

If we're all of a sudden going to be engineers lets do this thing.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Hi Tj

Can you imagine how much fun we would have if you lived here!

:)

Prof, you need to think about slowing down buddy, the thread isn’t going anywhere. You are still very much being that Dog on the end of the Bone. This is causing you to troll tuning and myself. Your so set on that "aha caught you" moment that your getting angry and rambling all over the pages again.

Prof, your not going to win here because listeners are tuning as we speak in real time which is the proof of and for the hobby of listening. In other words your smelling of something fishy is probably because you have been wiping your nose with your freshly fish covered hands.

BTW I did have some delicious fish tonight from my favorite Cajun style chief here in Vegas, who also happens to have one of my systems. He made a dish for both me and Jay.

Oh and another btw, Prof I'm back to that only skimming over your posts, they're pretty much just repeating themselves and have no new content of interest. You smell something fishy bla bla bla, prof is insulted bla bla bla, he's the defender of audio forums bla bla bla, prof has no experience when it comes to tuning bla bla bla, prof only knows how to ask questions but can't produce answers bla bla bla, folks are tuning and enjoying it bla bla bla. Why are you even here Prof bla bla bla. I am actually officially bored to death with you, I can't even see your trolling as anything more than what it is. Dog an Bone though, that one has value.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Elizabeth, I stole your phrase "bla bla bla". That was another profound moment for me on this thread.

Also for those of you who are now tuning, I'm very happy for you. It's a real mind and door opener.

Don't worry about it or you'll get stuck in that spin as well.

glupson, here's an example

Back when I was a consulting engineer for Turner Broadcasting there was a group of engineers that I belonged to that made up a team to work on new product and theories. Everything we did had a meaning to it (an end goal). One of the interesting projects was the development of the PZM. The PZM is a boundary effect microphone (pressure zone microphone). Brent, Martin, myself and the other guys had different ideas as to what to call this technology with regards to the performance and use. It was somewhat a new territory but had a huge need and the applications would end up changing live stage production forever. At the end of the day we pretty much all understood that the name PZM worked as long as you attached it to some of the uses. I did not come up with PZM, but because of my using it and modifying the performance to suit different applications I ended up being able to incorporate my own names and uses. One of these being PZC (Pressure Zone Controlling). Both the PZM and the PZC are devices that deal with the boundary effect (laminar effect) and the Pressure Zones of the room. Could there have been other words? Yep. But these are the ones that stuck and got us to the next level. Finding words and theories plus the doing with some predictable consistency is how science is born.

But the main thing brings us back to needing the walk to explain the talk. If not the words can become a spin, as we have seen on this thread.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Yep, that would be them! A pretty fun time. It changed stage performances dramatically. We did a mixture of shotguns, PZM, wireless and hand held wireless and centipedes. The patterns up until then would leave holes in the performance, but using the floor and walls as the actual microphone was the beginning of a whole new way of tracking and EQing.

lol amg, so I'm taking it that you would like a pay stub from me of all the places I worked? Pretty weird dude!

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Well thanks amg I've always tried to explore every part of audio I could get my hands on, especially in the 70's and 80's. I think I'm a bit younger than you though.

What do you mean by "really there at all"? Really where?

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Hi Guys

I'm back for a few minutes. Sorry if I disappear from time to time, it's called work. Or in my case it's called fun.

I'm pretty happy reading through this thread as the OP is playing itself out perfectly. The nice thing about threads is they become a documentation of the subject and at the same time they expose insights to our personalities and thought processes. It's interesting that some readers understood the OP for exactly what it was and others put their personality spins on the words typed. For myself this was very revealing and gave way to intent, not of the OP, but the interpretations of the OP.

The other interesting thing was how some thought I was being evasive and not answering questions, when I actually did present a pathway to the answers. Think about it "Talk but not walk?". It's a very simple question meaning why don't we add some empirical (doing) investigation into our talking. Some who read this said oh yeah I get it, others how dare he suggest I'm not walking, and some an opportunity to express their feelings about whatever they felt their soap box needed to be for the day. Some came up here to show that they can one up the OP, some to gather fans onto themselves, some to blow off steam, some to rewrite the words already chosen and some to joke. But, all the OP was really asking was "lets do a little doing". Some of the hints were "the laminar flow thing" and "the capacitor" thing. Both of these are super easy things to test, but the OP was asking "is anyone going to test".

I was prepared to give a whole list of things to "do" and then the readers could give the results of their "doing".  Posters did come up and said "I Do" and other posters responded "talking" about these doers but not actually doing. To the onlookers who did email me, they couldn't understand why the talkers couldn't see the OP for what it is, and the need for them to turn the OP into something else. Others who emailed me said "lets get started on the doing of my system". Some even congratulated me for breaking the ice. They thanked me for chiseling away at the endless spinning. But I didn't do the chiseling, I simply posted the OP and the interpreters did their own chiseling based on their own mindsets. As far as I am concerned I've been waiting to give any explanation needed for folks to comprehend the OP, but as long as the responders are stuck in their own created spins, I can wait. Besides I've been busy walking.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Robert (Audiopoint)

Nah, it’s not that complicated. The only common links I have with you are I was the first distributor for Audiopoints you were the second. You were one of my dealers. Then, you worked for me for 9 months. All that happened 20 some years ago. I’m not sure we have anything more in common than that.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

As far as the questions asked on this thread I'm glad that those of you who were more serious have taken the time to visit or even join TuneLand. I'm looking forward to getting to know you and tuning together. Also thanks for the emails. By you sending me your pictures and your descriptions I'm able to get a feel for your sound, you've been great!!

mg

"Whoa! What? Huh?"

Better get out at least a rain coat, wouldn’t you say Geoff?

A storm over a guy who worked for me for 9 months back in the 90’s?

Mods, I hate to bug you but you might want to keep an eye on this one. If some can’t keep it civil please delete them. Anger has no place on these threads and forums. Thanks for your diligence in keeping these threads friendly.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

See guys, even audiophile cows walk the walk!

moo

"I'm enjoying listening to my tunable system from Michael. That's the short and sweet of it, and a reminder to those who are getting so angry that they don't need to be."

Cómo estás haciendo mi amigo ? Estoy deseando verte este otoño. Me alegro de que disfrutes de la Rev6.

tener un buen fin de semana

Michael

glupson

Can I be straight up with you. No one I know, including myself in this, has ever said they can’t hear the difference between the sounds of capacitors. If someone claims to be a HEA audiophile and makes these types of claims, there’s no point for someone like me to talk to them. Do you honestly think I should be spending my time talking to them? Keep in mind I may have a project sitting in front of me where I have 10 caps ready for me to listen to and give my reports on. Is that me being rude or choosing to be practical? Now when that person takes the time to learn the differences we actually then can have something meaningful to talk about. But if they believe there are no sonic differences it’s unproductive for them to be talking to me or I them. I should be spending my time discussing the differences with the guy who is on the same page as me.

Like with this tuning thing. I’m honestly not interested in talking to the guy who isn’t sure it works, when I have thousands of guys to talk to who are actually tuning. If you tell me glupson that you aren’t sure if tuning works, what’s wrong with me saying "come back to me when you know it does and we can tune together"? It makes zero sense for me to try to sell tuning when I am engaging with people who already tune. I can share tuning with someone, and so can other Tunees, but if someone doesn’t believe or hasn’t tried it’s a mute point. I’m not going to beg someone to make an adjustment when I can have fun with those making adjustments. Why would someone who doesn’t "do" even post on a thread talking about doing? I’m never going to convince you or amg or prof or whoever. The only one who convinces you is you.

What we have on this thread is people who do are doing and people who aren’t, aren’t. You can pretty much point to them after reading a couple of their posts. You can also read on here when someone is getting really upset. I can’t control someone else’s temper. That’s all on that individual. What I can do however is ignore them, because they’re really just looking for an argument. People who make arguments are usually people who defend their own lack of doing a topic. You see there is no arguments when one takes the time to "do". Someone says "oh I’ve done that and didn’t hear a difference", well why talk to me about it then? I’d rather just move on from that type of person. Why talk to someone about hearing if they can’t hear it?

You know glupson, Geoff is so right. It’s one of those hobbies that is always going to go further if we have the will to do so. Someone who comes up on a thread like this and says "I’m done" probably shouldn’t even be on this thread. No one ever arrives in this hobby as long as there is one more recording to listen to, or the chance to hear more of that recording. The term walking is an action.

glupson, let me ask you to do something. Find Grannyring's posts about the OP and read it again, giving it some thought. Grannyring's view of the OP is correct.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Your right amg, you should say goodbye if you think anyone here is not happy to see someone else enjoying their music. 

You and a few others that came looking for that fight by all means should leave, and you've been told that more than once.  Why be on a thread your unhappy with and don't understand amg?

You guys seriously have been trying to make something out of nothing from the very beginning and you get POed that no one wants to argue with you. If that makes me arrogant and conceited ..... well ok ..... I guess there's worse things to be. But shhhhh don't tell the Tunees cause they think I'm a fun guy, and nice. I'll tell you a little secret between you and me. These guys who have chimed in on this thread that tune, well they love tuning their systems. I know that's a horrible thing, but they just can't get enough of it. I mean think of their nerve. If they hear something they want to change with their sound, ok I gotta whisper this...they change it. Can you believe that...that's just nonsense. Imagine having a stereo system that you can tune....well it's...it's....un-hobby-ish of them.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Hi Roberjerman, hey I’ve got even a better one. Now get a load of this one.

Delusional: a couple hundred thousand guys buying $500.00 amplifiers in $10,000.00-$50,000.00 chassis. Now that’s a good one. LOL oh oh I have another one. This is a hoot so hang on. I heard this one the other day. Guys buying $10,000.00-$250,000.00 speakers and (get a load of this, this will kill ya) and putting them in a living room, against the wall with (I’m not joking, I swear to God I'm serious lol) with a huge equipment rack in between them. Oh man there’s a million of em.

you said it oh man delusional is right

But I got 1 more, you’ll like this. It’s one thing that these guys were fooled into buying these $500.00 amps for 25 grand lets say, but when they get these amps home, they look at the front cover and there is only a volume control. $25,000.00 and only a volume control? Shoot I’m no fool, if it’s me I’m taking it back and getting the rest of my amp. lol

Oh geeze now that’s some funny stuff.

mg

Take care uberwaltz.

not for you :) we'll see!

Hi Folks

I've stated this earlier but nows a good time to review. I have several systems. One very much like uberwaltz just described. I come in plop down and fade away. It's pretty much a tweak and leave. I also have a plug & play HEA system. I have a casual system, a headphone system and of course the Tunable system.

Why do I bring this up again? Well because it's part of my personal walking. Often on this thread I've read people trying to define the tunable system as this monster that is constantly in need of a tuning, and the truth is, I've never said that and it's not true. The fact is my tunable system is by far the best sounding one I have, but also is the most stable system able to play more music without touching it. At the same time having the ability to take it much further than my other systems it's the ultimate win win for me. Do I enjoy the other systems? You bet, I love them but here's something else that for me is important. You know how people say they have a rock system, or a jazz system, or classical system? Well my tunable system is all three. I can line up my jazz recordings and set the system to one particular sound and have a blast. A few days or weeks later I can reset that same system to classic rock and do the same thing. And classical to boot often gets a different setting. Or I can set the system up and leave it for months if I want never touching a thing but the remote and CDP.

For those times when I do want to get adventurous this baby goes pretty much where ever I want to go. I know people have come up to say how they couldn't handle all the adjusting and I wonder if they've missed the point or if I explained it wrong and giving the picture of this thing with a thousand arms out of control, where the true is quite the opposite. Fact is the components in my tunable system are much easier to tune up than my turntables ever were. And I had 12 or so TTs at one time. Talk about touchy. So I mostly reject the whole going nuts tuning thing. Personally I think the objections are because this might be new to some folks and combined with that audiophile forum skeptic entitlement of pressing any persona thing (deep breath) stuff gets very weird and can turn into a complete misinfomercial event. I don't know why people do that but it turns me off to the point I won't even talk to the person. I'm sure my turn off to that made some turned off to me, but that sort of thing is separate from tuning your system.

I hope in time this thread becomes more of a gel and less of a jail.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net 

Wow this was good!!!!

"Sorry, dudes and dudettes, listening to music is not really a hobby. It may be enjoyable and you may do it frequently and you may do it for long periods of time sometimes but it’s not a hobby. Any more than watching Model trains go around the track is a hobby, without building the tracks, painting the train cars, the scenery, town, adding automation, whatever, etc. The audio hobby means rolling up your sleeves and actively seeking good sound, and better sound. Unless you believe audio is a plug-and-play experience. In which case you’re not in the hobby anyway. Or if you wouldn’t be more entertained by better sound. In which case you’re not in the hobby, either. A hobby should be active, interactive. But maybe this a a good definition of hobby for some of you"

I’ll take what he’s having.

Hi glupson

I very much enjoyed your post! You have a gift in writing. Reading you I always feel I'm able to see your thoughts even if I have interpreted them incorrectly in the past. I think that is rare in forum settings because, like with emails and texting, we read the words but also add to them our own personalities to the mix. Like that game we played as kids where someone says something in someone's ear and by the time it gets pasted around the room it's a completely different meaning let alone words. I on the other hand am not a gifted writer and sometimes lucky if my points are intelligible at all. I'm far better at "show and tell" than tell alone. Which is why the OP applies to me as well. If I didn't have systems around me all day I doubt if I could "talk" anything meaningful or useful on these forums as well as TuneLand at all. I would say I am a walker who is constantly learning about the talk side of life in general. It's been weird that I have been asked to speak so many times through my life and even been asked to teach. I have written entire university courses and even accepted to teach at SUNY, but when I got there felt very inadequate that I would ever pull off what these amazing people do. Dr. Robert Barstow is one of these amazing personalities who at one time was pushing to build a Tuning Research Lab on the campus at Oneonta. That was one of my wow moments in life. I could ramble till your ears bleed about the people who have approached me about what I do. Again pretty wow-ish for me at least.

"On a different note, I did ask recently what it is about you that ignites so many people, call it rubs them the wrong way. I have a feeling it is not just the content of the discussion as responses, at least to me, seem to be out of proportion. Just your existence on this thread, as anonymous and ultimately unimportant for the world that it is, brings some combative tendencies out. Do you have any idea what it is? Does it happen to you in real life? It may have nothing to do with audio topics, but I noticed it over the days so I thought I might ask."

part one

glupson, I can only give examples and hints to this cause it has been my personal mystery as well through life. I smile and think that maybe someday someone will look back and read this and other documents and say maybe I had a part (small part) in something much bigger than myself. I think it was amg who said how arrogant I was. Truth is I have no idea if I am or if I'm what the opposite side says. I get up every morning, thank God for another day, and begin tuning. My goal is to tune and build as much of a historical basis as I can through my lifetime. I use to think that while I was alive the Tuning Revolution would be in full swing and all things audio and mechanical would be sensory evaluated and self tuning, and even though it's going to be, it is still possibly beyond my lifetime. It's exciting to me though to see how far we have come in innovative technologies during our life times. The ego fights we see here on these pages and other pages of journals mean little to me. The push into what will be is what drives me.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Chapter Two

"On a different note, I did ask recently what it is about you that ignites so many people, call it rubs them the wrong way. I have a feeling it is not just the content of the discussion as responses, at least to me, seem to be out of proportion. Just your existence on this thread, as anonymous and ultimately unimportant for the world that it is, brings some combative tendencies out. Do you have any idea what it is? Does it happen to you in real life? It may have nothing to do with audio topics, but I noticed it over the days so I thought I might ask."

Thanks again for the question glupson!

You know how when we were kids and asked the question what do you want to be when you grow up? Sometimes nonfiction can be more exciting than fiction for those of us who lived the answer to the above kids question. I never pushed to become that grown up version of that kids question, it just happened. In fact it is kind of a curse to "be" something instead of "trying" to become something. I, like all of us, have been around people trying to be something. There’s that little bit of doctoring the resume and the ego driven one-ups-men-ship for many (maybe most I don’t know) and than there’s that guy who walks in and does it without question. He’s not a credit hound, he’s just really good at doing it.

The other day I asked a maintenance guy here where I live how he changes lights on the top of the building here with such ease? He hung over the edge and said "no fear of heights". I was so freaked out that he did this that I had to grab on to the railing on my porch. I get nervous about the second step on a ladder and this guy is on my roof playing Spiderman. I’m I more skilled than him? Heck no, but he does stuff like this everyday and doesn’t blink an eye at it or need noticed. We all have those gifts. Some of them get noticed and others never even get thought about twice.

In entertainment there’s a little different ego play going on. I saw this first as a child with my family and surroundings. I didn’t understand what was so weird about a music or tv "star" getting on my uncle and aunts jet and flying off. But, it must have been a big deal because of the crowd that would gather at the airport. Jets, limos, camera flashes and name dropping is a life style all on it’s own. It has made me uncomfortable all my life but I have done it (name dropping) as well and saw the results, both good and bad. In my early teens I remember a picture of a music entertainer that caught me in the background and it was on display a couple of days later on a newsstand. Riding my bike home from school two older kids knocked me over and beat me up. What was worse was my dad was a tough guy and took me back over to those kids houses and made me beat them up. Maybe that’s no big deal to anyone else but those types of things get stored and eventually play out in our lives in some way. I could give you a bunch of these types of stories based on my younger years and how they have shaped my thinking, life and what I share. They always though make me somewhat uncomfortable and maybe too shy or private, yes I am shy believe it or not LOL.

Another example and I’ll move on to glupson’s question more. In 1975 or about I started to do "real" touring myself. I say "real" because when I was younger than that I was really only a studio brat and would play snare for Bluegrass bands. At 15 though I had that bug to actually get on that bus and go. What a life changer! Everything about touring life is different from domestic living, it’s a different paradigm. Throw away high school peers and activities they no longer existed. I was built for this life and it was built for me. Those who have done this will understand and those who haven’t will only be able to guess. I didn’t even know what high school was about until years later when I saw tv shows. College? My college was done by tutor and mail. The only exposure to campus life was if we did a concert there. My high school graduation was very weird, I gave the opening prayer threw my hat in the air and met up with the band two days later. I’m I totally boring you guys yet? Cause I’m boring myself lol.

To cut this part short, from 15-21 I was on constant tour and studio work, a blurr would be a good description. My nickname was Natch (naturally high) and music production came to me as easy as breathing. Besides stopping by home to kiss my mom and do a couple gospel concerts, that was all to be seen of Natch. I never got into credit collecting or in studio fights, there was too much to do and I was having too much fun doing it. Planes replace the buses by about 16 or 17 and I lived on them. I was somewhat of a bulkhead king. I could hit that seat and be out till landing, totally refreshed and shuttled off to the studio, or live gig. Anything outside of that world didn’t exist. The first time I started to become a little stationary was when I returned to studio work in Florida, moved to Atlanta, got a gig as one of the Atlanta engineers, opened a few stereo stores, toured more, had a personal life and there you have it. There’s tons more to fill in any blanks but who cares, I’m thinking.

glupson, that was the super long answer (is there an answer?) to your question of why do people respond to me the way they do. I’ve had people speculate, make up their own stories about that question and create imaginary MG's that even entertain me. All I can really say is music and living it has been one fast an eventful ride. If I were to attempt at choosing one of the answers that has been given to me by several friends I would have to say the "Vibe" theory would be believable. And also, I bring out the best and worst in others. It has always happened and I don’t worry about it, better or worse it’s simply mg.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Robert

I don’t know what to tell you. Hopefully the Mods will consider deleting what you said, I’m not the mod here.

All I can really do is state again what I know. You worked for me for 9 months in the 90’s sometime. I guess your now claiming to know what I did 20years before that and what I am doing 20years after you were let go. That’s all there is really, except that I also distributed a product "Audiopoints" a decade before you picked up the line. And you were a dealer for me.

The rest of your story is of no interest to me except that it might trigger the report post status, which I stated above.

"Why does MG seem to think that mentioning that Audiopoints worked for him, and it didn’t work out, somehow discredits Audiopoints?"

Your joking right? I love what Brent came up with in his designing of the AudioPoint! Who ever would say that I would discredit the Audiopoint? I was so excited about the cone that I made it part of my regular lineup for years. I would hardly call that an attempt to discredit, would you?

Nah, you got your story messed up somewhere, I think that product along with Tiptoes, MTDs and German Acoustic Cones put the cone industry on the map.

Brent hit a home run with that product, I may have helped him swing the bat a little but that young man did a heck of a job!

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

You know what, I gave a descriptive answer about my time in Nashville and then said Nah! I deleted it. This is boring me to death so I’m going to leave you guys to your sitcom. Some of you guys are really cool, thanks for your contributions. Enjoy the heck out of your hobby, loved ones and life. Please come over and visit us on TuneLand anytime.

glupson, I think you said it a while back and forgive me for not quoting this exactly "folks wasting time". Your a good man!

grannyring, my apologies. I know how much you wanted this to be something productive, I'm sorry I didn't deliver.

Geoff, keep them on their toes

prof, get a hobby

Robert...well....Nah, you’ll have to work out your life on your own

Tunees, I love you guys! It’s my life’s honor and privilege to hang out with you and be a part of your music, see you on TuneLand.

Mods, you were very impressive, good luck with your forum and I hope to visit you soon.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Here’s a story.

Once upon a time there was a thread, the threads name was OP. It was a simple enough thread but soon after it began there came along two groups of people One Happy and the Other Angry. As the Happy people began sharing their happiness the Angry people became even angrier with the hopes to delude all the happy smiles. The Angry people became so unsettled by the Happy ones that they got together and baked a bunch of cherry pies. Sneaking up on the Happy people the Angry people started throwing the cherry pies into the faces of the Happy people. As the Happy people were getting hit in the face with pie being thrown by the Angry people, the Happy people started to taste the pie "gee that’s good cherry pie". Soon all the Happy people became even more Happy because that was their nature. The Happy people became great cherry pie makers while the Angry were never able to get their cherry trees to bloom again.

If your an Angry person, sorry we can do nothing for you.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Hi Trelja

Yep, there are so many great speakers out there in that modest price range that sound great against the walls, and then you walk into a friends house and it's a heartbreak, cause you know what's going to happen when they turn the system on.

That gets back to the OP. Who was the guy who told this guy it's ok to throw that speaker in a room that hasn't a prayer of gelling with the speaker. It's not the speaker designer's fault and it's not the end users fault, but somewhere in the chain of that research and purchase something went horribly wrong. Now he's got a very expensive work of art and unless he does something drastic he'll never get to enjoy their magic.

Obviously there are going to be bad designs out there. But I'm sure there's that perfect setup that the designer had in mind where the speaker sings with the music the designer used to build his sound with.

I get the after calls, lots of them, where the listener is stuck "what do I do now". It's not a fun time for them, unless the system is nothing more than a trophy to start with. I have built walls ontop of walls and floors ontop of floors to help as much as can be, but it makes you just sick to hear a mismatch, and you know someone in the loop was giving "talk" and not walking them through the process properly.

There's a little part of all of us who walk, when we read an obvious mismatch in the making. But I think that's why we need to keep pushing to raise the bar on advice. It's not about the person who comes up wanting to be known as an authority, it's about our friends who deserve to have their dream system, dream match, dream music and the ability to make everything they want to hear a success. Good post!

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Hi glupson

There's a lot of DIY designs being done, I think that's a smart move for a lot of folks. And then there's a lot of custom designing going on which is maybe even better.

If I was a start from scratch client, getting into the hobby right now, I wouldn't spring for a big purchase. I would buy a simple system and learn my space. The listener paradigm is changing and has changed quite a bit. Systems don't have to cost the big bucks anymore.

Do you have any idea how many people are getting into the hobby? Groves and groves. They're not HEA people they are regular folks doing basic systems. I have one to do this week where I'm helping some folks out. Front speakers, rear speakers, sub, receiver and source. It will sound great, as great as any HEA system (maybe better) that hasn't been setup well.

It's a very good time to be into stereos. These speaker sub combos are fantastic to work with. They're really very easy to setup and they're out of the way. Next move up for those who have a little flexibility in their rooms, tons of good speakers old and new.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

My gosh guys. We need to keep track of all this LOL. I see cows, dogs, cats, cherry pie (that was mine), ex employees showing up, Geoff has had some entertaining stuff, your usual mad men, folks who can’t read an OP and understand it or insist that it has a secret meaning, trolls post getting deleted right and left (some of them the ex employee). A weird inquiry about my stay in Nashville (that might be good). The MG cult of happy listeners, people in a hobby that does plug & play or tweaking or tuning (not knowing it’s all the same hobby), listeners saying their systems can play everything wonderfully without tweaking (that’s a good trick). Oh a clip we all love from "A-now", a guess into each ones education (knowing the average todays 6 year old knows more than all of us), my age (no I wasn’t offended glupson, I love my nice long gray beard) oh (so do the ladies). jf47t becomes famous off of one thread, other posters trying to get famous after thousands of posts, some needing to check in with the counter for their nitey nite meds, some I think might be selling meds. The OP totally playing itself out in real time, other forums now picking up on the thread and talking about it, someone some where sold a used amplifier, an audio show just happened somewhere. Friends of MG’s reading this thread rolling on the ground laughing (did I mention madmen here).

And me, well I’m now talking to my agent to see what kind of % I can get for the sitcom. And most of all it’s just a bunch of guys wasting time, oh average age 72. I wish I could have been here more now...well....maybe not but it’s still good!

Michael (thinking about changing my identity) Green lol

PS I think after all this I might just be a genius after all, who do I call to find out? peace my Brothers be happy

Oh brother, let’s not stretch this that far LOL. This is nothing more than a guy who worked for someone for 9 months. That’s it, that’s as far as the story goes. If Robert wants to build it into more than that, that’s up to him. As long as he doesn’t attempt to be "abusive toward another member" his story is as good as anyone’s.

Glupson, everyone sees life through their own lenses. I happen to see it as a pretty cool experience. The guy next to me may see it completely different. The OP is about talking without walking as a question. I, you, Robert, prof, jf47t or anyone else sees life through our own set of values. Prof for example sees through his lenses that I’m here to instigate a fight, even though I say I’m not here to start any fights. Prof thinks because I said things a certain way that it means something based on his perception. It wasn’t what I said, but it was his perception on what I said.

If you look at the OP you will see words. Those words only take on meaning as we apply our own set of values to them. I crafted the OP this way on purpose. Does the OP have meaning to me? Only to the extent that I wished to trigger others reactions to the way they (and I) view words. Some viewed the OP as just what it said, others thought it was provoking, others it gave them a chance to vent, others to bring up feelings about the person behind the OP (that was a little scary to be honest), and as we can read, a whole bunch of sidetracks and additives that had nothing to do with the OP at all.

I wanted to show in real time the motives and intent that we create in our own minds when we see words, topics or discussions. For example one thing that stuck out to me is that so many viewed discussions as "arguments". Those same people viewed the OP as something to start or plant that arguing mindset in to the thread. If you go back and read through the thread again you will see all sorts of motives in the posts written. I’m also interested in the posts that follow this one. With the intent of the OP layout out, will posters be able to curve their own belief system and accept the OP for what it is and was or will they not be able to put the brakes on because of their own agendas that they created?

Which brings us back to the OP and how it relates to the way we view audio. Do we create our own spins on audio to fit our beliefs? Are we able to stretch our views on what audio is and how far are we willing to take it? Do we as listeners see playback as a means to an end or a means to an active beginning?

In this OP I was surprised on how I was personalized instead of the OP as words. I’ll be honest that got a little creepy to me. I was surprised to see others use this thread as an attack platform against me personally, the 20 year old employee thing got really weird. I knew when that started that I was going to give this thread a couple of more days and then reveal the thought behind this OP. As for myself, the motive and meaning behind the OP was crystal clear, but that again shows how I was viewing the OP as a tool. I tried to give hints to the OP but I was again surprised at how dug in folks thinking was and how forcefully they were sticking to their (our) own beliefs systems. I remember prof saying "a dog at the end of a bone" (sorry that’s probably not an exact quote.

So anyway I’m very interested to see the next few posts and the agendas of the posters now that I have given the why of the OP.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Hi Guys & Gals

It’s been a month since my last post on this thread, been busy, but when I have had time I have stopped by this thread and other threads here. I wasn’t necessarily feeling the need to post on this thread again cause the OP speaks for itself, but I do feel inclined to give another example of "walking". This one is pretty impressive to me and serves as a good example of getting down to business.

http://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/impressive-audiogon-great-job

Audiogon could have given a million reasons why they made the changes they did, but when they saw the need and desire of the members they stepped up their efforts to supply not only a newer version but also a comfort zone for the way it was. Playing back music is the same way. Absolutely nothing wrong with staying put. At the same time having the choice to be able to explore the variables gives the hobby that much more to enjoy.

Michael Green

http://www.michaelgreenaudio.net/

So here we are a few months into this thread and coming back to visit the forum a couple of times I've notice the revolving door of the same ole thread development on the forum mostly ending in the same ole crash and burn fatalities as I said would happen in this thread's OP.

The audiophile world has been moving along just fine, and happy, but HEA stays in a state of decline and the same type of topics over and over. Opinions being thrown in from those who aren't actually doing always ends in the same place, talking without walking. I've noticed even a thread about why people hate HEA, that only a couple of posts in the trolling begins.

Doing the hobby is where the happiness lives. All the rest ends in nothing but talk.

Michael Green

http://tuneland.forumotion.com/